Re: meat and acid/alkaline

[Guest guest]

>

> I agree with the perspective that raw meat is alkaline or non->

>acidic and cooked meat protein is acidic. ... But it makes perfect

> sense-- the protein is metabolized differently.

But the main reason that meat protein is supposed to have an acidic

effect on urine is because of the sulfur-containing amino acids

methionine and cystine. they'd still be there in raw meat.

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 2/4/03 4:05:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> darkstar@p... writes:

>

> > But the main reason that meat protein is supposed to have an

acidic

> > effect on urine is because of the sulfur-containing amino acids

> > methionine and cystine. they'd still be there in raw meat.

>

> so why aren't the acids in the urine when it is eaten raw?

>

I'm assuming that raw meat and cooked meat both would tend to make

urine pH more acidic, although as you said there are other factors in

the diet to consider.

Do you have any evidence, other than the comment about the Inuits?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/4/03 9:22:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,

darkstar@... writes:

> I'm assuming that raw meat and cooked meat both would tend to make

> urine pH more acidic, although as you said there are other factors in

> the diet to consider.

> Do you have any evidence, other than the comment about the Inuits?

Only what I mentioned... and plenty of anecdotal evidence that people have

improved their teeth problems and such by eating their meat raw. Of course

the question remains of _why_ that worked, but it's enough to give me a

suspicion at least. In any case, if it improved calcification of skeletal

system, at least at the practical end, indicates it's probably not a problem

in terms of calcium loss from eating meat. On the theory end...

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

~yes... raw or otherwise, that does not negate the fact that there are still

sulfur proteins... phosphoproteins etc.. and of course the acid that needs

to then be neutralized (sodium, calcium, magnesium etc)

jen

----- Original Message -----

From: <darkstar@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 1:02 PM

Subject: Re: meat and acid/alkaline

>

> >

> > I agree with the perspective that raw meat is alkaline or non->

> >acidic and cooked meat protein is acidic. ... But it makes perfect

> > sense-- the protein is metabolized differently.

>

> But the main reason that meat protein is supposed to have an acidic

> effect on urine is because of the sulfur-containing amino acids

> methionine and cystine. they'd still be there in raw meat.

>

[Guest guest]

uh.... like I said last Friday which no one responded to

<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

you could be eating for your type and show alkaline urine but still be

acidic.

~If your urine PH was 7.5 or 8.0 you would think well gee I'm really

alkaline I must be doing good.... HOwever, even though your urine would be

alkaline because of the ammonia acid salt... the ammonia acid salt would

actually be there in the first place because of the excess protein/acid ash

etc.

As I mentioned in my previous post... lots of biochem here

there are no easy answers

jen

----- Original Message -----

From: <darkstar@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: meat and acid/alkaline

>

> > In a message dated 2/4/03 4:05:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> > darkstar@p... writes:

> >

> > > But the main reason that meat protein is supposed to have an

> acidic

> > > effect on urine is because of the sulfur-containing amino acids

> > > methionine and cystine. they'd still be there in raw meat.

> >

> > so why aren't the acids in the urine when it is eaten raw?

> >

>

> I'm assuming that raw meat and cooked meat both would tend to make

> urine pH more acidic, although as you said there are other factors in

> the diet to consider.

> Do you have any evidence, other than the comment about the Inuits?

>

[Guest guest]

Jen,

Is this in response to what I said at the very bottom? If so, my response is

that Steffanson, to my knowledge, was looking for specific acids in the

urine, and not the PH of the urine. So other things excreted would not

affect that. Moreover, he was finding a difference between raw meat and

cooked meat, not raw meat and no meat, which indicates that raw and cooked

meat are metabolized differently in a way to produce different acid

byproducts.

Chris

In a message dated 2/5/03 8:02:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, je@...

writes:

> uh.... like I said last Friday which no one responded to

>

> <<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>

> you could be eating for your type and show alkaline urine but still be

> acidic.

> ~If your urine PH was 7.5 or 8.0 you would think well gee I'm really

> alkaline I must be doing good.... HOwever, even though your urine would be

> alkaline because of the ammonia acid salt... the ammonia acid salt would

> actually be there in the first place because of the excess protein/acid ash

> etc.

> As I mentioned in my previous post... lots of biochem here

> there are no easy answers

>

> jen

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: <darkstar@...>

> < >

> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 6:19 PM

> Subject: Re: meat and acid/alkaline

>

>

> >

> > > In a message dated 2/4/03 4:05:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> > > darkstar@p... writes:

> > >

> > > > But the main reason that meat protein is supposed to have an

> > acidic

> > > > effect on urine is because of the sulfur-containing amino acids

> > > > methionine and cystine. they'd still be there in raw meat.

> > >

> > > so why aren't the acids in the urine when it is eaten raw?

> > >

> >

> > I'm assuming that raw meat and cooked meat both would tend to make

> > urine pH more acidic, although as you said there are other factors in

> > the diet to consider.

> > Do you have any evidence, other than the comment about the Inuits?

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- In , " CountryGirl " <ruthful@p...>

wrote:

> I would guess it is the enzyme levels that remain when it is

uncooked.

How do you think this could have any effect?

Enzymes are themselves protein, and have to be digested also.

[Guest guest]

Enzymes!!!?!?! Did someone say Enzymes?

:-) Chris

>From: " darkstardog <darkstar@...> " <darkstar@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: meat and acid/alkaline

>Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 20:25:39 -0000

>

>--- In , " CountryGirl " <ruthful@p...>

>wrote:

> > I would guess it is the enzyme levels that remain when it is

>uncooked.

>

>How do you think this could have any effect?

>

>Enzymes are themselves protein, and have to be digested also.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

> Steffanson, to my knowledge, was looking for specific acids in

> the > urine, and not the PH of the urine. So other things excreted

> would not affect that. Moreover, he was finding a difference

> between raw meat and > cooked meat, not raw meat and no meat, which

> indicates that raw and cooked > meat are metabolized differently in

> a way to > produce different acid byproducts.

>

>

is this online somewhere, or can you remember what acids he

measured and what the conditions were?

[Guest guest]

> Enzymes!!!?!?! Did someone say Enzymes?

> :-) Chris

>

No, no, we were talking about WINDCHIMES. That's all, just

windchimes.

%^)

[Guest guest]

I would guess it is the enzyme levels that remain when it is uncooked.

Blessings

Donna (newby)

----- Original Message -----

From: darkstardog <darkstar@...>

Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: meat and acid/alkaline

--- In , ChrisMasterjohn@a... > so why aren't

the acids in the urine when it is eaten raw?

[Guest guest]

Hi DSD. You know, I have no clue. Chuckle.

That is why I said, " I would guess " It has been awhile since I read up on

enzymes, but they are so essential to good health and are involved in all

metabolic processes. So it makes me wonder if they are not a part of the

answer.

Do you think enzymes are acid forming???

Otherwise clueless, Smile

Donna

www.excellentthings.net

ruthful@...

----- Original Message -----

From: darkstardog <darkstar@...>

" CountryGirl "

I would guess it is the enzyme levels that remain when it is

uncooked.

How do you think this could have any effect?

Enzymes are themselves protein, and have to be digested also.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/5/03 8:48:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,

darkstar@... writes:

> is this online somewhere, or can you remember what acids he

> measured and what the conditions were?

Crap, I wish I could remember. I'm pretty sure I read it in Nourishing

traditions in a column, and that someone on this list brought it up. I'm

currently reading My Life with the Eskimo. If I find it in there, I'll let

you know, but it will take me a while since school resumed while I was part

way through it.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/8/03 4:03:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,

talithakumi@... writes:

> P.S. For those interested, the foods that Stefansson ate during his year

> long experiment was sirloin steaks, brains and other organs, fish, and

other

> meats. Fish bones and rib ends were eaten for calcium. The diet was not

> really high in protein, for analysis showed 75 percent of calories to come

> from fats.

Great, thanks a lot Marla! We were just discussing this earlier... I think

it was with Bianca and someone else but can't remember very well right now,

and wondering whether the " Eskimo " diet was really high in protein or not...

guess that settles that.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of

them make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion, which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to

bear the sight of the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature.

Thus they pray ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the

truth, and for those who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

Hi Martha and Chris:

Ron Schmid's book Traditional Foods are Your Best Medicine mentions

Stefansson's 1928 Experiment. On page 160 Schmid writes, " During many

extended visits to the Arctic Between 1906 and 1918, Stefansson lived on

nothing but meat, fish, and water for an aggregate of over five years. . .

Stefansson was quite well known for his Arctic exploits, and when a group of

doctors asked to examine him extensively for evidence of ill effects from

his years of living on an all meat and fish diet, he agreed. A committee

failed to find any of the supposed harmful effects, and published their

findings in the Journal of the American Medical Association (July 3, 1926)

under the title " The Effects of an Exclusive Long-Continued Meat Diet. "

" An experiment was subsequently organized whereby Stefansson and a colleague

from his Arctic days were to live exclusively on meat and fish for one year

in New York City. The organization administering the experiment was the

Sage Institute of Pathology. The committee in charge included

physicans, professors, and admiistrators from Harvard, Cornell, and s

Hopkins Universities; from The American Museum of Natural History; and from

several other institutions. The research work, including several weeks of

full-time monitoring of the men in Bellevue Hospital (at the beginning and

end of the year), was done by a team of physicians headed by the Medical

Director of the Sage Institute of Pathology. During the intervening

months, Stefansson and his colleague came daily to the hospital for analysis

of blood and excretions, insuring that if the men cheated on the diet the

physicians likely would detect it. "

Anyway, it goes on a bit more. There was also info regarding vitamin C

which was addressed. Stefansson explained that, " if you have some fresh

meat in your diet every day, and don't overcook it, there will be enough C

from that source alone to prevent scurvy. " Confirmation of his explanation

for this appeared in a 1977 article in American Anthropologist entitled " The

Aboriginal Eskimo Diet in Modern Perspective. " According to Schmid,

Stefansson wrote a three part article called " Adventures in Diet " that

appeared in Harper's Monthly Magazine in November and December of 1935, and

January 1936.

Henry Bieler also writes a bit about Stefansson in his book Food is Your

Best Medicine. On page 190, Bieler writes about how Stefansson took a group

of robust college students to the Arctic and fed them raw meat. At first

they got nauseated and threw up, but later got used to it and fared very

well. When they tried to cook their food and add salt, the men started to

get indigestion. This prompted Stefansson's curiosity as to why the cooked

meat would do that. Bieler wrote, " For an answer, the chemistry of the

urine was studied. It was demonstrated that when meat was eaten in its

natural, raw state, the urine did not contain the putrefactive acids of

protein indigestion. This led to the observation and conclusion that the

more protein was cooked, the greater was the amount of putrefactive products

in the urine and even in the sweat and other body secretions. The colloid

chemistry term for raw protein is hydrophile colloid. Cooked protein is a

hydrophobe colloid. This means simply that the molecules are arranged

differently; in the hydrophobe colloid, into a form not so easily

assimilated by the human digestive organs. A simple example is the

difference between raw egg white and hard-boiled egg white. The first is

soluble in water, non-putrefactive in the intestines and behaves in a

special way toward acids, bases and salts. Many major and minor maladies

arise from the toxemia that follows the ingestion of cooked proteins. "

I haven't had a chance to read any of the actual articles. That would be

interesting to read.

Marla

P.S. For those interested, the foods that Stefansson ate during his year

long experiment was sirloin steaks, brains and other organs, fish, and other

meats. Fish bones and rib ends were eaten for calcium. The diet was not

really high in protein, for analysis showed 75 percent of calories to come

from fats.

>

> > is this online somewhere, or can you remember what acids he

> > measured and what the conditions were?

>

> Crap, I wish I could remember. I'm pretty sure I read it in Nourishing

> traditions in a column, and that someone on this list brought it up. I'm

> currently reading My Life with the Eskimo. If I find it in there, I'll

let

> you know, but it will take me a while since school resumed while I was

part

> way through it.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Chris:

Schmid wrote that in that one year experiment in 1928, Stefansson had

problems only in the beginning because the physicians asked him to eat only

completely lean meat (chopped fatless muscle). Within two days, he became

ill with diarrhea and " a general feeling of baffling discomfort. " The

symptoms disappeared after three days of introducing fats.

Marla

We were just discussing this earlier... I think

> it was with Bianca and someone else but can't remember very well right

now,

> and wondering whether the " Eskimo " diet was really high in protein or

not...

> guess that settles that.

>

> Chris