Re: vitamin c / good bacteria , allergy to dairy, etc.

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> I've heard several people mention they use Ascorbic Acid to

sterilize foods

> of moulds & bacteria. It does this eccedingly well i imagine. So,

what do

> you think its going to do to the GOOD bacteria inside your body?

> Those of you who ferment, try adding some Ascorbic Acid to your

ferments and

> see what happens!

Hello,

I haven't posted in a long time, but I had to on this one. My son is

allergic to milk so I've had to alter a lot of my soaking/fermenting

practices for him. Ascorbic Acid was one thing I was just starting

to look at as an alternative for soaking/fermenting. I'm hesitant to

even give it a try now.

What has me curious is why we can use lemon juice in place of whey

for those with milk allergies since the juice is isolated from the

fruit. Is this not the problem? Does lemon juice not have ascorbic

acid? I'm a little confused at this point. Does anyone have some

words of wisdom to help clear up my confusion on this?

Also, what other suggestions do you have for soaking/fermenting in

place of salt, lemon juice, or vinegar for those with milk

allergies? There were a couple of times where the salt, lemon juice,

and vinegar just didn't cut it in the taste area. What about apple

juice? For porridge, etc., of course. Would it have to be un-

pasteurized so that any good buggers in it aren't killed? Is it

acidic enough? I might need to invest in a juicer.

I just thought about something else. Could I add acidophilus to our

soaking/fermenting process for the good bacteria that we're not

getting by eliminating the use of dairy products? I know the health

food store carries some of these good bacteria. I realize that we

are getting some from the air itself during the soaking/fermenting

time, but I'm sure it's not as much as when you are using whey,

yogurt, piima, buttermilk, etc. in your food. What are all of you

doing who have dairy allergies? Thank you for any help that you can

give.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

I drink a LOT of vitamin C (Acerola and/or ascorbic acid). I even soak my

fruits, veggies and nuts in Citric Acid to destroy mold.

I also ferment - fil mjolk and kefir in the mornings, and my veggies and

meats are fermented.

I am EXTREMELY allergic to chemicals and molds. I make sure there are 3

hours between Vit. C and fermented foods. The easiest is to have my Vit. C

drink before bed (Vit. C crystals, Raw Apple Cider Vinegar, and Stevia).

I read somewhere (can't find the reference) that the body knows what it is

doing. Our bodies require quite a bit of vitamin C, and that there MAY be

" safeguards " for balance:

1> The " bad " bacteria has a different charge than the positive bacteria, and

the Vit. C does not affect the beneficial bacteria.

2> Most of the C is absorbed before getting to the lower intestines.

I know that even eating this much fermented foods, I still have problems

with chemical reactions. The addition of the vitamin C (and magnesium) has

made a very big difference.

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: <deweyli@...>

< >

Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 8:29 AM

Subject: Re: vitamin c / good bacteria , allergy to

dairy, etc.

>

> >

> >

> >

> > I've heard several people mention they use Ascorbic Acid to

> sterilize foods

> > of moulds & bacteria. It does this eccedingly well i imagine. So,

> what do

> > you think its going to do to the GOOD bacteria inside your body?

> > Those of you who ferment, try adding some Ascorbic Acid to your

> ferments and

> > see what happens!

>

> Hello,

>

> I haven't posted in a long time, but I had to on this one. My son is

> allergic to milk so I've had to alter a lot of my soaking/fermenting

> practices for him. Ascorbic Acid was one thing I was just starting

> to look at as an alternative for soaking/fermenting. I'm hesitant to

> even give it a try now.

>

> What has me curious is why we can use lemon juice in place of whey

> for those with milk allergies since the juice is isolated from the

> fruit. Is this not the problem? Does lemon juice not have ascorbic

> acid? I'm a little confused at this point. Does anyone have some

> words of wisdom to help clear up my confusion on this?

>

> Also, what other suggestions do you have for soaking/fermenting in

> place of salt, lemon juice, or vinegar for those with milk

> allergies? There were a couple of times where the salt, lemon juice,

> and vinegar just didn't cut it in the taste area. What about apple

> juice? For porridge, etc., of course. Would it have to be un-

> pasteurized so that any good buggers in it aren't killed? Is it

> acidic enough? I might need to invest in a juicer.

>

> I just thought about something else. Could I add acidophilus to our

> soaking/fermenting process for the good bacteria that we're not

> getting by eliminating the use of dairy products? I know the health

> food store carries some of these good bacteria. I realize that we

> are getting some from the air itself during the soaking/fermenting

> time, but I'm sure it's not as much as when you are using whey,

> yogurt, piima, buttermilk, etc. in your food. What are all of you

> doing who have dairy allergies? Thank you for any help that you can

> give.

>

> Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

> Robin

[Guest guest]

>>>>>What has me curious is why we can use lemon juice in place of whey

for those with milk allergies since the juice is isolated from the

fruit. Is this not the problem? Does lemon juice not have ascorbic

acid? I'm a little confused at this point. Does anyone have some

words of wisdom to help clear up my confusion on this?

----->robin, i saw part of one of sally's lectures on video a few weeks ago

and she said the important thing is to have an acidic medium - hence vinegar

or lemon juice as alternatives to whey. (IIRC, she said the four main things

you need are warmth, moisture, salt and acidity. maybe i'm not recalling the

salt part correctly, though.) she didn't mention anything about the lactic

acid bacteria themselves, though. got me curious, as i always thought the

bacteria were one of the main things you'd want in a ferment. but

apparently, if lemon or vinegar work, then the bacteria are not essential,

although i think they are an added benefit.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> >>>>>What has me curious is why we can use lemon juice in place of

whey

> for those with milk allergies since the juice is isolated from the

> fruit. Is this not the problem? Does lemon juice not have ascorbic

> acid? I'm a little confused at this point. Does anyone have some

> words of wisdom to help clear up my confusion on this?

>

>

> ----->robin, i saw part of one of sally's lectures on video a few

weeks ago

> and she said the important thing is to have an acidic medium -

hence vinegar

> or lemon juice as alternatives to whey. (IIRC, she said the four

main things

> you need are warmth, moisture, salt and acidity. maybe i'm not

recalling the

> salt part correctly, though.) she didn't mention anything about the

lactic

> acid bacteria themselves, though. got me curious, as i always

thought the

> bacteria were one of the main things you'd want in a ferment. but

> apparently, if lemon or vinegar work, then the bacteria are not

essential,

> although i think they are an added benefit.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I'm getting a little confused then on how acidic mediums and bacteria

work. Isn't the goal to have lots of good bacteria? But, how can we

be achieving this if the acid (ascorbic acid is coming to mind in

light of the vitamin C discussion) is supposed to be killing both the

good and bad bacteria? Are there different types of acids that react

differently? How do we know we are killing the bad guys with the

acid and encouraging the growth of the good guys at the same time? I

must be missing something. I think I'm mixing things up. Every time

I think I have all this stuff figured out something comes along to

confuse me. Thanks for you help.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Kat King " <katking@k...>

wrote:

> I drink a LOT of vitamin C (Acerola and/or ascorbic acid). I even

soak my

> fruits, veggies and nuts in Citric Acid to destroy mold.

What is the difference between citric acid (is that an isolate?) and

ascorbic acid? I thought that the ascorbic acid kills both good and

bad bacteria? I can understand how fermenting allows for enough time

that the good bacteria can build themselves back up after being

killed by the acid, but what about just soaking overnight? I'm just

trying to figure out how I'm supposed to be soaking/fermenting,

without the use of dairy, and how I can still keep the bad bugs away,

and encourage the growth of the good ones so that we can still get as

much good bacteria as we (my son) used to when using fermented diary

products. Do I just not concern myself with the good bacteria for

overnight soaking and just focus on the phytates? I was hoping that

somehow I could still incorporate the good bacteria in this situation

(overnight soaking). I do not understand how I can if the acid is

killing the good bacteria, as well as the bad, leaving no time for

the good bacteria to build itself up again.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

>>>>>I'm getting a little confused then on how acidic mediums and bacteria

work. Isn't the goal to have lots of good bacteria? But, how can we

be achieving this if the acid (ascorbic acid is coming to mind in

light of the vitamin C discussion) is supposed to be killing both the

good and bad bacteria?

---->well, the main bacteria in whey that ferment food are lactic acid

bacteria - they are acid-*loving* bacteria. they ONLY work in an acidic

medium - i don't recall the specific pH range they prefer, but i think it's

somewhere around 2-4, or thereabouts. so, although i don't know for sure, i

don't think a small amount of ascorbic acid would kill them, and could

potentially contribute to an acidic environment in which they thrive.

perhaps someone else knows the specific biochemistry of this.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> ---->well, the main bacteria in whey that ferment food are lactic

acid

> bacteria - they are acid-*loving* bacteria. they ONLY work in an

acidic

> medium

This must be where some of my confusion is coming in. I can't use

any dairy products in any form. I guess I am going to have to the

whole book again from that point of view and see what I can figure

out.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

If you study fermenting, it NEEDS to be acid for the good bacteria to grow.

That is why kefir, yogurt, kimchee, kombucha, etc. are all sour.

Kat

http://www.katking.com

----- Original Message -----

From: <deweyli@...>

< >

Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 9:49 AM

Subject: Re: vitamin c / good bacteria , allergy to

dairy, etc.

>

> > I drink a LOT of vitamin C (Acerola and/or ascorbic acid). I even

> soak my

> > fruits, veggies and nuts in Citric Acid to destroy mold.

>

> What is the difference between citric acid (is that an isolate?) and

> ascorbic acid? I thought that the ascorbic acid kills both good and

> bad bacteria? I can understand how fermenting allows for enough time

> that the good bacteria can build themselves back up after being

> killed by the acid, but what about just soaking overnight? I'm just

> trying to figure out how I'm supposed to be soaking/fermenting,

> without the use of dairy, and how I can still keep the bad bugs away,

> and encourage the growth of the good ones so that we can still get as

> much good bacteria as we (my son) used to when using fermented diary

> products. Do I just not concern myself with the good bacteria for

> overnight soaking and just focus on the phytates? I was hoping that

> somehow I could still incorporate the good bacteria in this situation

> (overnight soaking). I do not understand how I can if the acid is

> killing the good bacteria, as well as the bad, leaving no time for

> the good bacteria to build itself up again.

>

> Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

[Guest guest]

- you need are warmth, moisture, salt and acidity. maybe i'm not

recalling the

> salt part correctly, though.)

Warmth, moisture, TIME, acidity

[Guest guest]

>1> The " bad " bacteria has a different charge than the positive bacteria,

>and

>the Vit. C does not affect the beneficial bacteria.

Vic C dosen't. Ascorbic acid does. Add it to any quality bacterial culture

and see what happens. You won't be able to culture anyhing with it after

adding ascorbic acid.

>2> Most of the C is absorbed before getting to the lower intestines.

>

>I know that even eating this much fermented foods, I still have problems

>with chemical reactions. The addition of the vitamin C (and magnesium) has

>made a very big difference.

I find it very interesting that when one has a cold (a mucous elimination-

trapped plasma protein) and takes Vit C (ie fruit, etc) the elimination

increases, whereas when ascorbic acid is taken, the elimination is halted

(untill we stop taking the drug). Yes our bodies know what they are doing,

but we do not always.

Chris

_________________________________________________________________

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*

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[Guest guest]

>I haven't posted in a long time, but I had to on this one. My son is

>allergic to milk so I've had to alter a lot of my soaking/fermenting

>practices for him. Ascorbic Acid was one thing I was just starting

>to look at as an alternative for soaking/fermenting. I'm hesitant to

>even give it a try now.

>

>What has me curious is why we can use lemon juice in place of whey

>for those with milk allergies since the juice is isolated from the

>fruit. Is this not the problem? Does lemon juice not have ascorbic

>acid? I'm a little confused at this point. Does anyone have some

>words of wisdom to help clear up my confusion on this?

>

>Also, what other suggestions do you have for soaking/fermenting in

>place of salt, lemon juice, or vinegar for those with milk

>allergies? There were a couple of times where the salt, lemon juice,

>and vinegar just didn't cut it in the taste area. What about apple

>juice? For porridge, etc., of course. Would it have to be un-

>pasteurized so that any good buggers in it aren't killed? Is it

>acidic enough? I might need to invest in a juicer.

>

>I just thought about something else. Could I add acidophilus to our

>soaking/fermenting process for the good bacteria that we're not

>getting by eliminating the use of dairy products? I know the health

>food store carries some of these good bacteria. I realize that we

>are getting some from the air itself during the soaking/fermenting

>time, but I'm sure it's not as much as when you are using whey,

>yogurt, piima, buttermilk, etc. in your food. What are all of you

>doing who have dairy allergies?

There would be too much here for me to try and answer completely.

May i suggest reading 'How We Heal' by on?

Couple of things:

Is your son allergic to raw milk? have you tried fresh goats milk.

cultured milk might be ok because much of the lactose would be digested

already by bacteria.

I've found pretty much all alergies respond favourably to quality food

enzymes supplements (incl green papaya), high enzyme foods (incl pineapple,

figs, kiwi fruit, Papaya, as well as fermented foods), overall increases in

raw foods, colon cleansing, etc

You could try adding oxygen drops to your ferments/soaks. This will only

inhibit anaeorbic bacteria etc. I use lemon juice and applecider vinegar

sometimes, though couldn't say if it helps allergies cause i don't have any.

Definatley use a good culture, and again, you may be able to use dairy if

its fermented first. According to 'eat4yourtype', AB blood types do best on

dairy, although i drink plenty of milk and i'm an O blood type?

Chris

PS join howweheal for more discussion, & check out

www.d-w-m.com, www.grander.com, www.planet-tachyon.com & www.agmfoods.com

_________________________________________________________________

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

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[Guest guest]

> Is your son allergic to raw milk? have you tried fresh goats milk.

> cultured milk might be ok because much of the lactose would be

digested

> already by bacteria.

He is not lactose intolerant, he is allergic to milk in general.

This allergy runs in my family. My sister and several other family

members have this milk allergy as well. My sister's allergy to milk

is really bad. She almost died twice from it. It's not the

anaphylactic shock type of allergy though. Instead, it causes a slow

breakdown of the organs, etc. The body just reacts against it like

it's a foreign substance to the body, so over time, with continued

ingestion, the body just starts to break down. So, I have to be

careful to keep it out of his system as much as possible. If he

accidentally gets some in something he eats, he doesn't have

immediate, threatening problems, but still, with time it would cause

problems.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

<<<<<<

He is not lactose intolerant, he is allergic to milk in general.

This allergy runs in my family. My sister and several other family

members have this milk allergy as well. My sister's allergy to milk

is really bad. She almost died twice from it. It's not the

anaphylactic shock type of allergy though. Instead, it causes a slow

breakdown of the organs, etc. The body just reacts against it like

it's a foreign substance to the body, so over time, with continued

ingestion, the body just starts to break down. So, I have to be

careful to keep it out of his system as much as possible. If he

accidentally gets some in something he eats, he doesn't have

immediate, threatening problems, but still, with time it would cause

problems.

>>>>>>>>>

Dear Robin,

This is so scary! I have a daughter that is allergic to milk. I did not know

about the organ breakdown part. Can you tell me where I can learn more about

milk allergies? Books, sites, etc. I do not want to mess with her health

unknowingly.

TIA

Kim Brenneman

[Guest guest]

> <<<<<<

> Dear Robin,

> This is so scary! I have a daughter that is allergic to milk. I

did not know about the organ breakdown part. Can you tell me where I

can learn more about milk allergies? Books, sites, etc. I do not

want to mess with her health unknowingly.

> TIA

> Kim Brenneman

Kim,

I don't actually know a whole lot about milk allergies, just what

I've seen in my own family. I'm sure there are many types of

allergic reactions that one can have to any type of food, this just

happens to be the type of reaction that our family tends to have with

milk. Not everyone in our family mind of course, just those that

happen to get that gene. I'm careful with my son because the chances

of it being that type of reaction is great because that's the type of

reaction that runs in our family.

Here is what happened to my sister. She almost died as an infant

because of her milk allergy. They didn't understand at that time

what was happening with her, and thankfully, she managed to survive,

barely (she was at death's door). As she got older and stronger

(healthier), my parents allowed her to have dairy products thinking

that she was strong enough to handle it. Instead, the dairy was

slowly killing her over those years. She began having all types of

allergies (she was allergic to all kinds of things) and my parents

didn't know to attribute it to the milk because they thought that she

just happened to be allergic to all these things (hay fever and other

allergies run in my family as well). Of course, my sister didn't

think to suspect milk because she was just a kid and ate what my

parents gave her.

As she grew into adulthood, her organs began to shut down on her.

None of the doctors that she went to could figure out why. They did

test after test on her and nothing was showing up. They got to the

point where they told my sister that there was nothing else they

could do; they just couldn't find what was wrong. As you can

imagine, my sister felt completely helpless and scared. At this

point, while she was talking to another one of our sisters, that

sister happened to recall how sick she was with milk as a baby and

made the connection that milk could be the cause of all her

problems. It was one of those, " Why didn't I think of that myself! "

moments for my sister. She immediately cut out all dairy from her

diet, I mean everything; the caesinate (sp), whey, datem (sp), etc.,

all milk and milk derivatives. She instantly started getting

better. Her organs began working properly again and, get this (this

shocked me), 80% of her other allergies went away.

She is doing good now. She has some minor (compared to what she was

suffering before) permanent damage. Before, she didn't know what it

meant to feel good, she was used to the way she felt; feeling bad

was " normal " to her. She didn't know anything else. So now, because

her body is actually feeling good, she is very sensitive to dairy.

If she accidentally eats dairy, even the smallest amount, she's

messed up for a couple of days.

So, as you can see, this is why I'm careful with my son. Even if

this is not the type of reaction that his body would have (although

this is what I do suspect), I don't want to take that chance;

potential permanent damage is not worth giving it a try to see what

would happen. I need to keep it away from him either way because he

is allergic to it and it would still not be good for him to have,

regardless of what the long-term effects would be.

Also, I wanted to mention to you what my friend's doctor told her.

Her son has a lot of allergies as well and when they took their son

to see the doctor, he/she said that many times if you have external

allergies, pollen, cats, dust mites, etc., that this often can be an

indication of a food allergy. The reason he/she gave was that when

your body is constantly, on a daily basis, fighting a food that it is

allergic too, in time, the body's immune system becomes weakened and

thus begins to have a hard time fighting external allergens, hence

becoming allergic to pollen, cats, dust mites, etc. It can take up

to a year or longer for the body to heal from a food allergy, so

expect some time, potentially, before you really start seeing results.

In my son's case, he began having allergies to dust mites (this was

my first clue to his milk allergy) and asthma as a result. When we

took him off dairy his asthma immediately got better. He only has 1-

2 asthma attacks a year now, working our way to 0! Thankfully, it

didn't take us long to figure this out. Thanks to my sister. When

we re-introduced dairy to " test " him, his allergies/asthma increased

right along with it. He actually began having allergies to cats and

something else (we suspect it was our dogs), but we didn't wait to

figure out what that something else was. At that point, we

immediately took him off all dairy again and that " something else "

allergy immediately went away and his asthma began to subside again.

It's hard to tell how his allergy to cats is doing because we are

hardly around them. When we do go to my friend's house, which has a

cat, he seems to do okay. I usually make him play outside though, so

it's hard to really tell. I guess I should let him hold the cat a

little to see what happens. I suspect he would do okay.

I hope this was helpful to you. The only knowledge I can offer you

is our family's experience.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin