chicken or the egg

October 26, 2004

Hello,,,

I have chronic pain from scoliosis. I am never quite sure how to treat it.

Is it from the bone? or from the nerves? or from tissue damage?

Do I use heat? Ice? Exercise? Rest?

Most of the times it is under control,,,but then I will get a flare up.

I have joined a few of these lists,,,and done a lot of research. I would

love to hear from you!

May 13, 2009

not4idiopathic wrote:

> Doesn't the body's capacity to handle oxidative stress rely on it's

antioxidant supply vs. demand? If the demand becomes greater, there is an

evident misfire which would likely be in the cycle which is chiefly responsible

for this capacity.

It's much more complex than that. Read Marty Pall's book.

> How is it that the NO-OONO cycle can become corrupt without a reduction in

capacity to eliminate toxins and oxidative stress?

Again, it is far more complex than you are making it out to be. Genetic

factors, hormonal status, nutritional status, etc. all play into this.

You are trying to simplify something that is not simple.

> In the disarray of understanding our commonalities, research has burrowed

heads in the sand in niches of our bodies. Occasionally when a key person views

the systemic failures in order we gain greater understanding because it just

makes sense.

That is exactly what Marty has done. He has looked at the whole picture

and discovered a new paradigm of human disease, the tenth paradigm.

Jeri <teewinot13@...>

@>--->---->~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<----<---<@

Dr. Pall's NO/ONOO- Theory/Treatment Discussion Group:

TenthParadigmSociety

@>----------<---------->----------<----------<----------<@

The Tenth Paradigm Society for CFS, MCS, FM, PTSD, GWS & others:

http://www.geocities.com/tenthparadigm

@>----------<---------->----------<----------<----------<@

MCS-SinglesConnection: For all singles MCSers 18 and over:

MCS-SinglesConnection

@>----------<---------->----------<----------<----------<@

MCS-Florida - For All Chemically Sensitive Floridians

MCS-Florida

----------

No viruses detected in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.27/2112 - Release Date: 05/13/09

07:04:00

May 13, 2009

Jeri,

I haven't read a book in years. If you have the cliff notes version and would

like to share, I'd appreciate it.

I understand there are varying factors. I think it's rather escapist to use

the word complex to explain it. I'll simplify...

When glutathione is deficient and the subsequent methylation cycle occurs, ADMA

becomes deficient which elevates NO.

Then almost separately, the glutathione depletion causes an increase of hydrogen

peroxide which raises superoxide levels causing the Krebs block by removing an

iron ion from aconitase.

Also, the superoxide reacts with nitric oxide which creates peroxynitrite.

There are intermediary steps omitted for brevity, but the sequences are simple

biology and irrefutable, if I stated it correctly, but someone is welcome to

correct me.

Jeri, in my effort to find some peace in my health I have been to several

doctors and their network of labs and consultants who all focused on the Krebs

cycle. Fact is I only became terribly sicker and of less financial stature.

Once I was able to wrap my brain around unblocking a specific point, methionine

synthase, I began to get better. Like I've said before, actual results may

vary. However there are many that have taken the route I'm on and have a good

part of their lives back. It's safe to say it's not the cure, because of other

factors we all agree on. However, when it comes to the chronic state of

illness, cause and effect, " complex " is just a poor way to put it.

Lets try, all roads lead to a slowdown of methionine synthase. Then work our

way out of that by treating last things first.

Cheers,

R

not4idiopathic wrote:

> Doesn't the body's capacity to handle oxidative stress rely on it's

antioxidant supply vs. demand? If the demand becomes greater, there is an

evident misfire which would likely be in the cycle which is chiefly responsible

for this capacity.

It's much more complex than that. Read Marty Pall's book.

> How is it that the NO-OONO cycle can become corrupt without a reduction in

capacity to eliminate toxins and oxidative stress?

Again, it is far more complex than you are making it out to be. Genetic

factors, hormonal status, nutritional status, etc. all play into this.

You are trying to simplify something that is not simple.

> In the disarray of understanding our commonalities, research has burrowed

heads in the sand in niches of our bodies. Occasionally when a key person views

the systemic failures in order we gain greater understanding because it just

makes sense.

That is exactly what Marty has done. He has looked at the whole picture

and discovered a new paradigm of human disease, the tenth paradigm.

Jeri <teewinot13@...>

May 14, 2009

I read the book and as I read it, I thought I understood it. But now I

couldn't explain anything at all about it. With the brain fog most of

us have, Jeri, you are asking us to do the impossible.

jprutty wrote:

>

> Jeri,

>

> I haven't read a book in years. If you have the cliff notes version

> and would like to share, I'd appreciate it.

>

> I understand there are varying factors. I think it's rather escapist

> to use the word complex to explain it. I'll simplify...

>

> When glutathione is deficient and the subsequent methylation cycle

> occurs, ADMA becomes deficient which elevates NO.

>

> Then almost separately, the glutathione depletion causes an increase

> of hydrogen peroxide which raises superoxide levels causing the Krebs

> block by removing an iron ion from aconitase.

>

> Also, the superoxide reacts with nitric oxide which creates peroxynitrite.

>

> There are intermediary steps omitted for brevity, but the sequences

> are simple biology and irrefutable, if I stated it correctly, but

> someone is welcome to correct me.

>

> Jeri, in my effort to find some peace in my health I have been to

> several doctors and their network of labs and consultants who all

> focused on the Krebs cycle. Fact is I only became terribly sicker and

> of less financial stature. Once I was able to wrap my brain around

> unblocking a specific point, methionine synthase, I began to get

> better. Like I've said before, actual results may vary. However there

> are many that have taken the route I'm on and have a good part of

> their lives back. It's safe to say it's not the cure, because of other

> factors we all agree on. However, when it comes to the chronic state

> of illness, cause and effect, " complex " is just a poor way to put it.

>

> Lets try, all roads lead to a slowdown of methionine synthase. Then

> work our way out of that by treating last things first.

>

> Cheers,

> R

>

> not4idiopathic wrote:

>

> > Doesn't the body's capacity to handle oxidative stress rely on it's

> antioxidant supply vs. demand? If the demand becomes greater, there is

> an evident misfire which would likely be in the cycle which is chiefly

> responsible for this capacity.

>

> It's much more complex than that. Read Marty Pall's book.

>

> > How is it that the NO-OONO cycle can become corrupt without a

> reduction in capacity to eliminate toxins and oxidative stress?

>

> Again, it is far more complex than you are making it out to be. Genetic

> factors, hormonal status, nutritional status, etc. all play into this.

> You are trying to simplify something that is not simple.

>

> > In the disarray of understanding our commonalities, research has

> burrowed heads in the sand in niches of our bodies. Occasionally when

> a key person views the systemic failures in order we gain greater

> understanding because it just makes sense.

>

> That is exactly what Marty has done. He has looked at the whole picture

> and discovered a new paradigm of human disease, the tenth paradigm.

>

> Jeri <teewinot13@... <mailto:teewinot13%40bellsouth.net>>

>

May 15, 2009

jprutty wrote:

> I haven't read a book in years. If you have the cliff notes version and would

like to share, I'd appreciate it.

The information is on the 10P website. URL i9s in the sig below.

> I understand there are varying factors. I think it's rather escapist to use

the word complex to explain it. I'll simplify...

The NO/ONOO- cycle *is* complex.

> When glutathione is deficient and the subsequent methylation cycle occurs,

ADMA becomes deficient which elevates NO.

Not everyone with CFIDS is deficient in glutathione. I never have been.

Lowering NMDA and vanilloid receptor activity in the brain and

downregulating other aspects of the cycle in the brain have led to great

improvement for many people.

> Lets try, all roads lead to a slowdown of methionine synthase. Then work our

way out of that by treating last things first.

I disagree.

Jeri <teewinot13@...>

@>--->---->~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<----<---<@

Dr. Pall's NO/ONOO- Theory/Treatment Discussion Group:

TenthParadigmSociety

@>----------<---------->----------<----------<----------<@

The Tenth Paradigm Society for CFS, MCS, FM, PTSD, GWS & others:

http://www.geocities.com/tenthparadigm

@>----------<---------->----------<----------<----------<@

MCS-SinglesConnection: For all singles MCSers 18 and over:

MCS-SinglesConnection

@>----------<---------->----------<----------<----------<@

MCS-Florida - For All Chemically Sensitive Floridians

MCS-Florida

----------

No viruses detected in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.29/2114 - Release Date: 05/14/09

06:28:00

May 15, 2009

Jeri,

As I said, using the word complex is rather escapist. I reiterate that because

you are touting someone else's medals without speaking of their deeds. At the

end, I'll paste in the remainder of my message that you chose not to respond to

because we aren't running a disinformation campaign here. Last I checked. I

respect your right to disagree without explanation, but that goes back to your

choice of using " complex " . I can understand that you've learned enough to

believe in what you know without remembering why. I think that happens to many

of us.

Firstly though, in regards to your statement about never being low in

glutathione, I admire the confidence in yourself, doctors and labs to be able to

believe that all of your testing has been accurate. In respect to glutathione,

I'm wondering if you assumed you weren't deficient because of a normal

methylmalonic acid or FIGLU? Or maybe you had testing through Vitamin

Diagnostics or even Genova.

Personal note on MCS is that went away in me once I diminished my toxin load and

partially restored my body's capacity to handle toxins. As I'm sure you know,

unfortunately there are those with genetics that cause them to be extremely

sensitive to molds, chemicals and such. Without that testing I'm assuming I'm

on the more lenient side of genetics. I hope that you are able to at the least,

reduce the severity of your illness. I say this because my allergies and MCS

decreased after my first round of detoxing, without doing anything else. After

that I began the Simplified Protocol for GD-MCB and even after those symptoms

returned, they never gained the same severity and have now diminished into

nonexistence.

Most importantly and the reason for my tone, there are many that view these

posts who have very little capacity to do research on their own to discern which

experimental protocol is better. The more we snip posts to make ourselves look

righteous and avoid answering the tough questions, the more we look like

marketing agents promoting our heartfelt cause. I can be guilty of that as

well. Please understand the implications of posts, as they do more than make

you feel good. I am sorry that you as well as every other ill person or

caretaker that reads these messages feels we need to read them as we are all

looking for the same thing, an answer. It's important for us all to take

responsibility for what we share because disinformation or persuasive rhetoric

can cost lives here.

Arrogance is not reserved only for sick folks. I see it's effect on those that

desire to explain us and attempt to heal us. The arrogance is blinding to the

truth. Fortunately we've been blessed with some that through humility seek

truth.

I've said my peace and will no longer respond.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What else I wrote:

....Then almost separately, the glutathione depletion causes an increase of

hydrogen peroxide which raises superoxide levels causing the Krebs block by

removing an iron ion from aconitase.