Re: Furious

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/18/03 11:49:28 PM Central Standard Time, jls1995@...

writes:

> 1. They took her off the " big bus " and is now back on door-to-door

> transportation.

>

If you really object to the bus situation then you'll have to do so clearly,

does it state specifically that she will not ride the sped bus? All they

are required to do is get her to and from school safely, unless you got it in

writing they can do so pretty much however they way.

2. They like to point out more negative things than positive things, not only

in her

> communication book, but in her daily report sheets as well.

>

On this one you have to be very specific with the teacher and aide, you might

have to repeat 1zillion times that you really want to know what she's doing

in class as far as school work, NOT just the naughty things shes doing.

3. They are accusing her of doing hitting and kicking the aide.

She might possibly really be doing this, have a letter in writing all ready

to present requesting an FBA while at your meeting. If she really is doing

this then they and you need someone to find out why.

> 4. The comment was made to me at the last IEP meeting that we would

> re-convene in a month to determine whether or not this placement was still

> the best placement for her. I was told this after the meeting was over and

> people were filing out of the room.

>

They should have mentioned it when they were all still sittin there, but

reconveneing (which we'll do for in the middle of march) is a way to get

face to face with them and discuss any issues, both positive and negative.

5. They made changes to the Final IEP AFTER I agreed to what was in it.

> Noticeably her PT schedule.

>

The only thing with her PT schedule that you'll have a leg to stand on will

be if they've either cut or added to the time agreed on in the IEP. So if

they've just changed the time she gets pt there isn't much you can do about

it except dicsuss why it should be at some other time.

6. It took them three weeks to get the Final IEP to me in which I had to go

to the

> school after a written request for my copy was ignored.

>

They have what is it 10 days or 15, since I figured we should get a copy of

's sometime this week, so I'm giving them this week to get it to me, then

I'll email and ask where it is, but these are SCHOOL days(mary's school had

last thurs, fri and this mon. off) , so if there's a break scheduled, even a

snow day or two, it could add up toe 3 weeks, so they may be ok.

7. She was literally shoved back across the white line the students stand

behind

> when they are waiting for parents to pick them up. The teacher who did this

> did not talk to Jordan or ask her to get behind the white line. She just

> shoved her. She didn't do this to any other student that was over that

> line, and I saw three other kids over that line. She also grabbed Jordan

> by her upper arm and forced her to run to the front of the line when they

> saw my car. Jordan can't run as fast as the teacher was making her. This

> is also not Jordan's teacher, but just someone who is assigned to help with

> after school bussing and car riders.

>

>

Ask to have a different person assigned to Jordan's part of the bus line.

You might want to say something like person seems to be very impatient with

Jordan as compaired to her attitude toward other 'line crossers' etc etc.

(Maybe the classroom assistant who's familiar with Jordan could be assigned

the task of watching the line rather then a grumpy teacher).

Joy

[Guest guest]

You have some good points and some good suggestions.

Personally, we never leave the IEP meeting without a copy of the IEP. Last

year it was lost for 5 months. HA.

Also, TAKE A TAPE RECORDER! And be the last one out the door and don't turn

it off until everyone is OUT.

Place it in the middle of the table where all can see.....and have all your

questions and concerns written out before you go in.

I also like to have a copy of IDEA with me sitting there for all to see that

I have done my homework.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/19/2003 12:49:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,

jls1995@... writes:

<< I don't think Jordan should be subjected to a FBA if there's NO bad

behaviors going on. The teachers KNOW that Jordan does not communicate well

so she can't come home and tell me what happened that day. >>

Maybe I don't understand FBAs well enough, but I thought they're meant to

study the child and find triggers for good and bad behaviors. So if there

are no bad behaviors that will show. I think of an FBA as a way of teaching

teachers and aids what makes a child behave/misbehave and how to handle

him/her. Am I naieve?

I think you've got to watch out with a laundry list. You need to focus on

what the most important issues are and not let the bureacracy feel that they

can placate you by satisfying some of your issues. Before you meet, review

the following sites to help plan your strategies.

<A HREF= " http://www.icehouse.net/lmstuter/acf001.htm " >The Delphi Technique.

What Is It?</A> <A HREF= " http://www.americanpolicy.org/educ/thedelphi.htm " >

APC: Education > Articles > The " Delphi Technique " And How It Robs Parents of

C</A>

I'm the last person who should tell you this, because I get very emotional.

If I get very angry I cry which is horrible. But, you've got to be calm down

for Jordan's sake. I drink lots of water to try and stay calm and breathe

very deeply.

Kathy, Liam's mom(almost 5)

[Guest guest]

These people sound like they are " too busy " to be interested in doing

things the right way; they may prefer to do whatever is most convenient to

them. (Even though I'm usually in the position of defending school

personnel, I know that every school has a few that are in their comfortable

" ruts " and refuse to make the effort to climb out and drive on the modern,

higher road. It can be a real problem if one of those people is in a

position of authority.)

Some thoughts:

--Try to find a sped advocate. Not only should that person know the law

inside out, but she/he should be able to prevent the situation from becoming

too emotional.

--At all meetings, ask that they use carbon paper for everything they write.

That way, you'll have a written record to take home that same day.

--Whenever you go to the school to pick up Jordan, take a camera with you.

If the shoving incident reoccurs, you might just get it on film (or tape, or

digital memory card...)

--Take extra batteries, along with the extra tape for your recorder,

whenever you go to a meeting.

--Develop your own little communications form that has several labeled

boxes: math, reading, other academics, other classes--PE, music, etc.,

commendations, behavior incidents. Surely they would be embarassed to only

fill in the part about negative behaviors days after day.

BTW I agree with Sue (I think it was Sue who said it) about showing

personal concern for the school staff and " all they go through " .

Good luck!

Bev

[Guest guest]

Hi!

It certainly sounds like the school is screwing up.

A couple of things.

1) don't go to the meeting alone. Take at least one other friend a) for

moral support and to assist in assuring things proceed diplomatically.

2) Request that a functional assessment be done and that training (and

additional supports if needed) be provided to the teacher and aide on how to

work successfully with Jordan.

3) talk with the educational advocates for your state and see what they

think.

Take Care,

Kent

[Guest guest]

Here is my 2 cents worth:

NEVER leave an IEP meeting without a copy of the IEP. Do not accept any excuse.

If they don't use carbonized copies (as we do) then tell them to photocopy EVERY

page for you. Some parents actually go thru the IEP and number and initial each

page when it's time for them to sign ... that's a way to guarantee no page is

slipped in later and passes as part of the originial IEP.

Check your state regs .... transporation is a related service. It is an IEP

team decision as to whether the student rides regular bus or special bus. That

is spelled out on IEP form. In VA parental consent is required to change or

drop a service. If your child is deemed a danger to others as the reason for

the change, they would have to provide documentation of that.

One way to avoid so much negativity is to design your own " communication

checklist " and give that to the teacher to use. Tell her it will make her job

so much easier than a narrative in a journal. Type up what you really want to

know. Always start with something like, " What Jordan did well today " You can

use the phrase " What Jordan had trouble with today " at the end of the list.

Then things like " worked on writing the letter __________, read the story

_________,

ate all her snack _______________, whatever you want to know.

If a teacher can send home regular communication with nothing good to say about

a child, it will probably serve as a demonstration of a negative attitude

towards that child. You can also send the same communication sheet to school

each day that you filled out the night before, so the teacher knows what your

child did at home. It helps with communication and interactions with the

student.

If there are significant behaviors impeding your child's academic progress, IDEA

requires that FBA be done. FBA determines what the behavior is, when it

happens, and hopefully why it happens. The next step is to then develop an BIP

to address those behaviors. If the behaviors are not occurring, the FBA will

show that too. If they are the FBA will provide useful information in

discovering how and why and promote the change necessary to end the behaviors.

An FBA doesn't do anything to a child, someone comes and observes and documents

their observations. Now the IEP team should meet and determine who does the

FBA, when they do it (in every class, in the lunchroom, in the hallways) and for

how long (one hour, all day, five days, ten days) You look for the " ABC's " -

antecedent, behavior, and consequences.

Your child may display behaviors at school that they don't have at home ... and

people may greatly exaggerate those behaviors when they occur .... many times

there is a double standard for our students and regular ed students.

But the school either has to acknowledge the behaviors exist and deal with them

in a formal way or say that they're really not that bad and deal with them

however willy nilly they want.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

So, when you get to the IEP.... do they have blank forms or do they have the

goals all written up?

[Guest guest]

I think the main thing to try and do is become a " professional parent " and try

your darnest not to become emotional. Wear a dark blue suit (power clothes) and

dress your best.

Bring an agenda (with copies) of what needs to be addressed. Write suggestions

of what you think can be done to meet her needs and the IEP.

Ask to meet on a regular basis until the kinks get worked out (and expect

constant changes - keeping the I in IEP).

You can say " My concern is that her behaviors are not addressed and can not be

until a FBA is completed. (put request in writing and add to IEP) " . Once the

FBA is completed, we need to reconvene and write behavioral goals. Until then,

time out is a negative reinforcer for her and I suggest using this technique.

I went through a whole year of negative papers on . This year, his

teacher sends home either a pink sheet or a blue sheet. The pink sheet says " I

had a great day " and the blue sheet says " I could have had a better day " . Also,

has a daily activity sheet. He will circle what he completed for the

day (OT, ST, PE, etc.). Sometimes the teacher will make little comments

(refused to participate in PE " . There is also room for me to write what he had

for dinner, what he played and what time he went to bed. This helps reinforce

speech - he can tell them about home.

I guess we are lucky. The IEP is numbered and then xeroxed before we leave the

room. I am the emotional parent and Tim is truly the " professional parent " -

even though I dress better than he does (he will show up in a tshirt and jeans).

Tim also is a union rep and is highly involved on a national level for his union

- he's really good at IEPs.

We are having a good year so far. I've backed off alot and wanted the behaviors

to be the biggest goal. He is continuing to learn to read and spell - and his

writing keeps getting better and better. He's happy and I am not as stressed.

He also has friends - he talks about them, writes their names all the time, etc.

The most help we have had is through a private behavioral psychologist - and not

the school. I do have more trust with his teacher this year and her demeanor is

more low key and not easily anxious.

[Guest guest]

Maybe I don't understand FBAs well enough, but I thought they're meant to

study the child and find triggers for good and bad behaviors. So if there

are no bad behaviors that will show. I think of an FBA as a way of teaching

teachers and aids what makes a child behave/misbehave and how to handle

him/her. Am I naieve?

No Kathy - you got it right. Our kids display so many different behaviors -

some minor and very age appropriate (like blowing bubbles in milk), while

hitting is not. Hitting could be contributed to poor communication, but it

could be a sensory issue, a violation of space issue, etc.- and only the FBA can

help define the behaviors and identify the triggers. Then positive reinforcers

are identified to work on the behaviors.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/19/2003 4:37:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,

cindysue@... writes:

> Maybe I don't understand FBAs well enough, but I thought they're meant to

> study the child and find triggers for good and bad behaviors. So if there

> are no bad behaviors that will show. I think of an FBA as a way of

> teaching

> teachers and aids what makes a child behave/misbehave and how to handle

> him/her. Am I naieve?

>

Exactly.

You are getting messages that your daughter is having behavior problems,

right? Then the logical answer is that she needs an FBA. Put the ball in

THEIR court to figure out what is causing it.

If it's all smoke and there really are no behavior problems, it will show up

in the report and make the person (aide) who keeps saying your daughter is a

problem look like a liar & it will clear the air.

If there ARE problems, the FBA will locate what the problems are and what is

causing them (maybe the way the aide treats her????) and will establish a

plan for changing whatever in her environment is causing her to act out.

Again, the ball goes back in THEIR court to fix the problem.

Either way you win!

- Becky

been there, done that

[Guest guest]

Can't add too much to the many great suggestions you have gotten Judi.

It's funny, the ridiculously obvious things (like, Jordan has to hang

around school while everyone else goes home because the bus won't come

early.... how can we solve this???????) are often those that drive us to

the breaking point because they are so absurd...... any rational person

could see that this situation is a problem and should be able to deal

with it without an act of Congress!

Our district " requires " prior notification if you are going to tape an

IEP (don't know how enforcable that is......) If you tape, then they

tape as well...... guess us emotional, irrational parents (LOL) might

alter the tape in order to win in due process................. Not a

big deal.... we taped the first meeting, and after that didn't bother

because we have gotten pretty much everything we wanted (so far). We

have always been provided with the copies before leaving (except the day

the copier was broken, and we got them sent home the next day). I know

we've been lucky so far, and hope our luck continues as we transition to

a new school next fall.

Good luck Friday.

, mom to (7), (5 DS), and (3)

[Guest guest]

Hi

We have an IEP for one of our kids tomorrow. We have never left an IEP

meeting without the IEP paperwork. They have always gone out of their way

to give us copies. And the Procedural Safeguards too. We have been pretty

lucky with our four on IEP's, no major problems. A couple of times they

wanted to cut speech services back a little and and I complained and

they restored them right there on the spot. I hope everyone;s IEP's work

out well.

Dad to , Kristi, (all three Down syndrome) and (Cri du

chat)

Husband to C.

Re: Furious

> Here is my 2 cents worth:

>

> NEVER leave an IEP meeting without a copy of the IEP. Do not accept any

excuse. If they don't use carbonized copies (as we do) then tell them to

photocopy EVERY page for you. Some parents actually go thru the IEP and

number and initial each page when it's time for them to sign ... that's a

way to guarantee no page is slipped in later and passes as part of the

originial IEP.

>

> Check your state regs .... transporation is a related service. It is an

IEP team decision as to whether the student rides regular bus or special

bus. That is spelled out on IEP form. In VA parental consent is required

to change or drop a service. If your child is deemed a danger to others as

the reason for the change, they would have to provide documentation of that.

>

> One way to avoid so much negativity is to design your own " communication

checklist " and give that to the teacher to use. Tell her it will make her

job so much easier than a narrative in a journal. Type up what you really

want to know. Always start with something like, " What Jordan did well

today " You can use the phrase " What Jordan had trouble with today " at the

end of the list. Then things like " worked on writing the letter

__________, read the story _________,

> ate all her snack _______________, whatever you want to know.

> If a teacher can send home regular communication with nothing good to say

about a child, it will probably serve as a demonstration of a negative

attitude towards that child. You can also send the same communication sheet

to school each day that you filled out the night before, so the teacher

knows what your child did at home. It helps with communication and

interactions with the student.

>

> If there are significant behaviors impeding your child's academic

progress, IDEA requires that FBA be done. FBA determines what the behavior

is, when it happens, and hopefully why it happens. The next step is to then

develop an BIP to address those behaviors. If the behaviors are not

occurring, the FBA will show that too. If they are the FBA will provide

useful information in discovering how and why and promote the change

necessary to end the behaviors. An FBA doesn't do anything to a child,

someone comes and observes and documents their observations. Now the IEP

team should meet and determine who does the FBA, when they do it (in every

class, in the lunchroom, in the hallways) and for how long (one hour, all

day, five days, ten days) You look for the " ABC's " - antecedent, behavior,

and consequences.

> Your child may display behaviors at school that they don't have at home

.... and people may greatly exaggerate those behaviors when they occur ....

many times there is a double standard for our students and regular ed

students.

> But the school either has to acknowledge the behaviors exist and deal with

them in a formal way or say that they're really not that bad and deal with

them however willy nilly they want.

> Cheryl in VA

>

> Click reply to all for messages to go to the list. Just hit reply for

messages to go to the sender of the message.

>

>

[Guest guest]

One thing I forgot to mention. We have people who bring a friend ... and

introduce them as their " note taker. " It's a much less adversarial way to

have an ally, they actually do take notes for you and the team doesn't

usually seem to mind someone in that role. You can also give them a copy of

your agenda so if you forget something or get off track they can point to it

in their " notes " without the entire team knowing what is going on.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/19/2003 11:43:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,

shippd@... writes:

> And the Procedural Safeguards too.

Most people don't realize that Procedural Safeguards are suppose to be given

at the time the meeting is scheduled ... so you have time to actually read

the document and understand your rights BEFORE the IEP meeting. Our LEA is

doing a better job of giving them out early instead of handing them to you

when you sit down at the table.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

While we know the intent is to have blank pages and the team fills it in, I

know few people where that happens.

Our LEA is going to computerized forms and they are going to send home

drafts. Our question to the sped dept flabbergasted them .... " if there needs

to be changes made, will you have a computer on hand to do so at the IEP

meeting? " ;-)

Their suggestion is to write in on the rough draft the changes and that is

still the official signed document you take with you at the end of the

meeting. They will make changes to the computerized form later ... and no

print out for parents of the document that is stored in computer. Which

makes us wonder how to insure no keying errors .... say on the service page

are made?

We are still working on this one!

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

AT Mav's last IEP..that took 13 hours by the time we were done..... they

wrote it on the computer as we went along...which was time consuming. I also

had them email me the final copy of the IEP as well as give me a hard copy at

the meeting.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/20/2003 7:01:05 AM US Mountain Standard Time,

staceyjc@... writes:

> when I was a special

> education teacher, we did come in with blank pages. We wrote the

> goals at the meeting with the parents.

You know you are in the minority here. I would have loved to work with you!

[Guest guest]

This year, I had a pre- IEP meeting to just discuss the goals so that when we

had the meeting, we were all on the same page, so to speak.

I really appreciated the teachers meeting with me ahead of time. It is set

up that way at 's school so that when the meeting happens, its just

that. Setting the goals is the hardest part - that meeting took place for a

good hour, but the goal setting part of the IEP was not involved so the

meeting didnt take as long. It's something to try and set up with your

teams, if you can.

~ Mom to 12 DS and Diabetes Type 1 and 8 NY

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/20/2003 8:18:57 AM US Mountain Standard Time,

linman42@... writes:

> but the goal setting part of the IEP was not involved so the

> meeting didnt take as long.

We did that with but then they " made a few changes " before they came

to the final IEP. So we picked them apart and it lasted as long as it would

have if we did it all right then and there.

[Guest guest]

I have written this before to the group, but...when I was a special

education teacher, we did come in with blank pages. We wrote the

goals at the meeting with the parents. We also spent a lot of time

going over parents rights to ensure that the parents understood all

of their rights. If the IEP's are going computerized, and they make

changes, I know this would be a hassle for parents, but could you

ask to reconvene the group to sign the IEP after changes are made on

the computer, or could they send the final copy home for you to sign

with the changes?

I also encouraged my parents to bring an advocate if they wanted

to. I did not find it to be threatening, but I think my school

district did! I don't feel an advocate has to be an adversarial

person, and advocate is there to make sure that the parents/child's

rights are being met, etc.. and to me, that is a good thing.

I have really enjoyed reading these posts! It is making me better

prepared for when I am working with the school system for my child

(to be!)! Stacey

-- In , wildwards@a... wrote:

> While we know the intent is to have blank pages and the team fills

it in, I

> know few people where that happens.

>

> Our LEA is going to computerized forms and they are going to send

home

> drafts. Our question to the sped dept flabbergasted them .... " if

there needs

> to be changes made, will you have a computer on hand to do so at

the IEP

> meeting? " ;-)

> Their suggestion is to write in on the rough draft the changes and

that is

> still the official signed document you take with you at the end of

the

> meeting. They will make changes to the computerized form

later ... and no

> print out for parents of the document that is stored in computer.

Which

> makes us wonder how to insure no keying errors .... say on the

service page

> are made?

> We are still working on this one!

> Cheryl in VA

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have been very fortunate with Danny's teachers re. developing IEPs. (Not

necessarily so with administrators... In his last school, I could have

qualified for the label of " furious " with them more than once.) For the last

several years, they have given me more than the usual two weeks notice. I

write goals and objectives (not always the measurement part, though) and

send them in at least a week in advance. I arrive at the meeting to a typed

IEP, then we spend the next three or four hours making changes, adding

details, etc.

BTW If I think there is something they won't like, I might not bring it up

until the meeting.

I guess working in the school system, " sympathizing " with all they go

through in their jobs, and being able to write in the required jargon have

helped a lot. It's such a shame that so many of you who are capable of

writing perfectly suitable IEPs don't get the respect you deserve.

Bev

-----Original Message-----

From: Michdock@... [mailto:Michdock@...]

So, when you get to the IEP.... do they have blank forms or do they have the

goals all written up?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/20/2003 12:03:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,

mom2bridget@... writes:

> Our special education coordinators (district level) have

> lap tops.

We have 10,000 special ed students in Va. Beach. Ain't no way our sped

coordinators could make all those meetings! ;-)

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

Even if we agree on every last detail, I never sign until I get the final

form.

Bev

-----Original Message-----

From: wildwards@... [mailto:wildwards@...]

Their suggestion is to write in on the rough draft the changes and that is

still the official signed document you take with you at the end of the

meeting. They will make changes to the computerized form later ... and no

print out for parents of the document that is stored in computer. Which

makes us wonder how to insure no keying errors .... say on the service page

are made?

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure how to interpret the very first piece of paper I was handed

at out last IEP meeting. It was a definition of " Least Restrictive

Environment " . What do you suppose brought about that practice?!

Bev

-----Original Message-----

From: wildwards@... [mailto:wildwards@...]

> And the Procedural Safeguards too.

Most people don't realize that Procedural Safeguards are suppose to be given

at the time the meeting is scheduled ... so you have time to actually read

the document and understand your rights BEFORE the IEP meeting. Our LEA is

doing a better job of giving them out early instead of handing them to you

when you sit down at the table.

Cheryl in VA

[Guest guest]

Our school system has gone to computerized IEPs. The program they use is

such a memory hog that they had to buy new computers for all the SpEd

teachers so they could wirte their IEPs!

Now, I really, really like working with computers, and one of my jobs is

to maintain (with telephone help from the central office) over 200 networked

computers. However, every time the school system gets money from the state

for computers, the priority is to buy computers for teachers for

administrative purposes: standardized testing, grades, attendance. Most

teachers won't let students touch " their " classroom computers, and the

school system forbids putting all the new computers in a computer lab

instead of classrooms. Please, someone tell me how spending all this money

(and most of my time) on computers is benefitting students in proportion to

the expense!!!!

Bev

Hmmmmm! Looking at the subject line, I guess we have lots of things to be

furious about.

-----Original Message-----

From: mom2bridget [mailto:mom2bridget@...]

Our special education coordinators (district level) have lap tops. These

could be used to make changes, copied to a disk and then printed out while

you wait.