Re: Zinc/Copper Ratio - Is This An Issue? - Carol

[Guest guest]

With regard to the thyroid there is more evidence that the selenium, zinc

relationship is more important, as zinc is required for the proper synthesis

of hormones. If you are taking zinc though, without a little copper, you could

develop anemia, but that usually only happens with really high doses of zinc,

which isn't recommended anyway. Copper helps red blood cells maintain

proper shape, so they carry oxygen efficiently.

[Guest guest]

My naturalpath advised to alternate zinc day with copper day.

The article below does not make copper sound very good though... higher mortality

rate for higher copper. OTOH high magnesium is associated with reduced mortality

risk.

http://www.upmccancercenters.com/news/reuters/reuters.cfm?article=7217

Glory wrote:

What do you think would be necessary (zinc/copper ratio)to make sure

that those two stay in balance?

[Guest guest]

Hi Glo - I have seen zinc/copper ratios of 10:1, 15:1 & even up to

30:1 recommended. 10:1 to 20:1 seem to appear the most.

http://www.drkaslow.com/html/zinc-copper_imbalances.html

http://www.drkaslow.com/html/zinc.html

http://foodsupplements.homestead.com/ZINC.html

" ..Vitamin B-6 required for absorption. Caffeine, dairy products,

and bran may decrease the absorption of zinc. Excess zinc reported

to offset the protective effect of selenium against

cancer in lab animals. Dr. Gerhard Schrauzer, UCSD, Dept. of

Chemistry (C & EN, Jan. 17, 1977). Excess zinc also hinders

absorption of copper which can cause RBC microcytosis and

neutropenia. The zinc:copper ratio should be 10:1. (27)... "

Zinc info:

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/cc/zinc.pdf

http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/treat/T34521.html

" ...Zinc at doses of 20mg and above may cause stomach upset and/or

nausea so it should always be taken with food. Long-term zinc

supplementation above 50mg has been shown to decrease HDL

cholesterol and increase total cholesterol. This may be due to an

induced copper deficiency. In addition, copper deficiency anemia can

occur as well. Zinc should always be taken with copper in a 10 to 1

through 30 to 1 zinc to copper ratio. Large doses of zinc may also

promote folate deficiency... "

Zinc and Copper Intakes and Their Major Food Sources for Older

Adults in the 1994–96 Continuing Survey of Food Intakes by

Individuals (CSFII)

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/11/2838

Zn:Cu ratios > 16 have been associated with increased risk of

cardiac abnormalities (Klevay et al. 1984 , Sandstead 1995 ).

Although the Zn:Cu ratio from dietary sources was < 16 for nearly

all of the respondents in this study, the beneficial effects of zinc

on immunocompetency and the lipoprotein profile in the elderly

(Boukaiba et al., Fortes et al. 1997 ) make zinc a more likely

candidate for supplementation than copper. Supplementing with zinc

without concurrent copper supplements could produce Zn:Cu ratios

high enough to be of concern. Risk from high Zn:Cu ratios could be

aggravated by age-related changes in absorption, metabolism and

pharmaceutical use discussed earlier....

It was suggested that zinc bioavailability can be impaired by iron,

calcium and dietary fiber (O'Dell 1984 ), and its metabolism may be

altered by folate (Sandstead 1994 ). Adverse interactions of copper

with vitamin C, iron and dietary fiber were reported as well

(Turnlund 1988 ). The amounts of these potentially confounding

dietary factors reported by our sample were far below the levels at

which reduced zinc or copper bioavailability was observed. However,

it is likely that interactions are reciprocal, and the intakes of

calcium and folate were considerably lower than the most current

recommendations for the elderly, which may be a cause for concern.

The copper content of drinking water is another factor that may

complicate the assessment of copper nutriture and deserves

examination... "

You might want to check the copper content of your water at home, if

you drink that water, before you supplement. Some copper pipes leach

more than others, depending on water acidit/mineral content.

Interesting article on the interplay of high zinc/low copper in meat

vs high copper/low zinc in liver & calcium's role in blocking zinc

absorption

The Role of Zinc, Copper and Calcium in the Etiology of the " Meat

Anemia "

http://www.bloodjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/23/6/786

Articles that reference serum Cu/Zn ratio, as opposed to dietary

ones. Somewhere sub-1 is desirable for serum Cu/Zn:

Serum Trace Elements and Cu/Zn Ratio in Malignant Lymphomas in

Children

http://tropej.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/40/3/185

Serum trace elements and Cu/Zn ratio in breast cancer patients.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=2011029 & dopt=Abstract

Use of the copper/zinc ratio in the diagnosis of lung cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids

=2914279

Diagnostic value of the copper/zinc ratio in digestive cancer: a

case control study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids

=9204619

Diagnostic value of the copper/zinc ratio in hepatocellular

carcinoma: a case control study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids

=12560921

HTH,

> Hi Carol,

> Way back when I was first diagnosed with Graves in 2000, one of

the supplements my holistic doc (back then) suggested I take is (I

think it was 3mgs) of copper daily. I did this daily for a couple

of years. I stopped taking the copper when I began

having " problems " going very hypo?) and after receiving a reply from

Elaine on the about.com thyroid site.

>

> Elaine stated that copper and zinc supplementation have be very

> finely balanced, if you don't want things to begin going haywire.

> What do you think would be necessary (zinc/copper ratio)to make

sure that those two stay in balance?

>

> On that note, after looking at all of my supplements that Dr. B

> has " prescribed " , copper is not in any of these .. (???)

>

> Thanks,

> Glo

[Guest guest]

" Glory " <glonear@...> wrote:

> What do you think would be necessary (zinc/copper ratio)

> to make sure that those two stay in balance?

> Thanks,

> Glo

I think the zinc/copper " balance " could vary somewhat

with the individual, and men need about twice as much zinc

as women, but for a women who is TCM deficient constitution

and undermethylated, consider 25 mg zinc, 1.25 mg copper,

and adjust from there if needed.

I'm not much aware of zinc in my system, 25 mg, 50 mg, none,

whatever, I can't tell much difference.

Too much zinc depletes copper.

I've found copper to be extremely powerful, huge effect

from Solgar's copper 2.5 mg on the first day,

very cold with urinary tract symptoms (-),

foot skin much smoother and healthier in 1 day (+),

but had to go to 1.25 mg or less thereafter.

TCM excess constitution/overmethylated likely needs NO copper

supplement.

I think it's a matter of keeping copper on the radar screen

rather than not, and being aware that copper/zinc do have

a relationship. Most people don't know that, aren't aware

of copper, or think more is better on general principles

(not!).

To the guy taking 10 mg copper daily, beware of overdose on

the cardiovascular, nervous, and urinary systems.

more on copper:

http://www.labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp/html/chapter/mono/

bm004700.htm

or

http://tinyurl.com/ym34rf

Carol

willis_protocols

my article archive in Files, blog, Links, not a discussion group.

[Guest guest]

Apricot85 <apricot85@...> wrote:

>

> My naturalpath advised to alternate zinc day with copper day.

> The article below does not make copper sound very good though...

> higher

> mortality rate for higher copper. OTOH high magnesium is

> associated with reduced mortality risk.

I take zinc and copper and different times of day.

If one needs a copper supplement, copper should not be taken

to excess.

TCM excess constitution tends to have high/enough copper naturally,

they are the ones predisposed to diabetes, hypertension,

mania, cardiovascular blockage, high cortisol, metabolic

syndrome, PCOS, beer bellies and apple-shaped bodies,

higher energy, higher capacity to exercise,

stronger muscles, bigger voices, more body hair,

capable of pushing more in life.

This sort of person puts himself into more high risk

and dramatic situations, may take the strength of his youth

for granted. It's not difficult to see

how there would be a higher mortality rate as excess catches up

with the person sooner later. How many of these people

do you figure are taking any magnesium at all? My guess is

about 5%, in a multiple vit/min. How many of them are taking

magnesium to bowel tolerance? My guess is less than 0.5%.

Magnesium to bowel tolerance is calming and most people do very

well on it. Few Americans even get a minimum

daily requirement of 200-400 mg magnesium. I consider 400 mg

magnesium a minimum for adults.

Carol

willis_protocols

my article archive in Files, blog, Links, not a discussion group.

[Guest guest]

> high copper/low zinc in liver

Liver is very high in copper. TCM deficient constitution or

undermethylated do well to eat liver weekly.

[Ref: my article* TCM Excess vs Deficient Constitution]

Carol

willis_protocols

*my article archive in Files, blog, Links, not a discussion group.

[Guest guest]

I understand magnesium is important but I don't understand the rational

for giving one-size-fits-all recommendations for it. If I supplement

any magnesium I get heart palpitations and sometimes muscle twitching.

Others on this list have said they also do poorly with magnesium. I

worked myself into quite a problem taking everyone's advice on

magnesium! We're careful to talk about individual needs for other

minerals like copper - why not magnesium?

Sharon

> Magnesium to bowel tolerance is calming and most people do very

> well on it. Few Americans even get a minimum

> daily requirement of 200-400 mg magnesium. I consider 400 mg

> magnesium a minimum for adults.

[Guest guest]

Whatever anyone says is best taken as something to consider

and maybe experiment with and get your own experience, but

should not be taken as " advice " , for various reasons.

I personally find trying-hard-to-fit into some preconceived

idea that is not working, to be irrational, like trying to

please some authority, or fit in with a group. Everyone is

outside-the-box about one thing or another in life. It looks

like magnesium is yours.

The adverse effects you cite for any amount of magnesium

supplement are very uncommon, but whoever has them *cannot

invalidate their own experience*. It may be that different kinds

or amounts of magnesium would act differently for you.

Or adding or subtracting calcium, adding or subtracting zinc.

I find each magnesium type and even product acts a bit

differently. (Despite others' raves, I do horribly on that

effervescent magnesium citrate product that mixes with

very hot water, and exceed bowel tolerance with only 400 mg.)

If you parse out 100 mg of some form of magnesium,

and still have the problems you cite

with magnesium, then this would be highly unusual. What

you describe are more like what magnesium would be a

treatment for, so all the more unusual. But, it is what it is.

A classical homeopath might give you a magnesium homeopathic

remedy based on your unusual reaction to magnesium, would be a

clue to your homeopathic case. Very unusual toxic-like

reactions to any substance are important clues in homeopathy.

If something isn't working for you, play with the form, play

with the amount, even abandon it altogether after experimenting

around. (I use muscle testing as one way I work with supplements

for myself -- which one, how much etc. -- it generates

working hypotheses, narrows the field, saves me a lot of money.)

Have a spirit of play about experimenting, and by all means

trust your own experiences. Share your experience, we need to

hear each other's experience. The other side of that coin is

to consider what people say, but don't give your power away.

Rationality and healthy boundaries in grassroots nutritional

circles - very important topics almost never addressed.

This has been Off-topic, but relevant in regard to how

we think about supplements generally, including ... Iodine!

Carol

willis_protocols

article archive in Files, blog, Links, non-commercial,

not a discussion group.

" sharflin " <sharflin@...> wrote:

>

> I understand magnesium is important but I don't understand the

> rational

> for giving one-size-fits-all recommendations for it.

> If I supplement any magnesium I get heart palpitations

> and sometimes muscle twitching.

> Others on this list have said they also do poorly

> with magnesium. I

> worked myself into quite a problem taking everyone's advice on

> magnesium! We're careful to talk about individual needs for other

> minerals like copper - why not magnesium?

> Sharon

>

> > Magnesium to bowel tolerance is calming and most people do very

> > well on it. Few Americans even get a minimum

> > daily requirement of 200-400 mg magnesium. I consider 400 mg

> > magnesium a minimum for adults.

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Elaine stated that copper and zinc supplementation have be very

> finely balanced, if you don't want things to begin going haywire.

>

> What do you think would be necessary (zinc/copper ratio)to make sure

> that those two stay in balance?

I have been looking at copper/zinc in recent days. Sorry I cannot

provide a source but I noted the ratio: 1:1

It appears one can get into big trouble with copper. I have decided to

get it from food sources rather than supplements for this reason.

Abbe

[Guest guest]

Carol,

No worries! I was NOT hinting at a lawsuit or anything!!

Sharon

> Whatever anyone says is best taken as something to consider

> and maybe experiment with and get your own experience, but

> should not be taken as " advice " , for various reasons.

>

> I personally find trying-hard-to-fit into some preconceived

> idea that is not working, to be irrational, like trying to

> please some authority, or fit in with a group. Everyone is

> outside-the-box about one thing or another in life. It looks

> like magnesium is yours.

>

> The adverse effects you cite for any amount of magnesium

> supplement are very uncommon, but whoever has them *cannot

> invalidate their own experience*. It may be that different kinds

> or amounts of magnesium would act differently for you.

> Or adding or subtracting calcium, adding or subtracting zinc.

> I find each magnesium type and even product acts a bit

> differently. (Despite others' raves, I do horribly on that

> effervescent magnesium citrate product that mixes with

> very hot water, and exceed bowel tolerance with only 400 mg.)

>

> If you parse out 100 mg of some form of magnesium,

> and still have the problems you cite

> with magnesium, then this would be highly unusual. What

> you describe are more like what magnesium would be a

> treatment for, so all the more unusual. But, it is what it is.

> A classical homeopath might give you a magnesium homeopathic

> remedy based on your unusual reaction to magnesium, would be a

> clue to your homeopathic case. Very unusual toxic-like

> reactions to any substance are important clues in homeopathy.

>

> If something isn't working for you, play with the form, play

> with the amount, even abandon it altogether after experimenting

> around. (I use muscle testing as one way I work with supplements

> for myself -- which one, how much etc. -- it generates

> working hypotheses, narrows the field, saves me a lot of money.)

>

> Have a spirit of play about experimenting, and by all means

> trust your own experiences. Share your experience, we need to

> hear each other's experience. The other side of that coin is

> to consider what people say, but don't give your power away.

>

> Rationality and healthy boundaries in grassroots nutritional

> circles - very important topics almost never addressed.

>

> This has been Off-topic, but relevant in regard to how

> we think about supplements generally, including ... Iodine!

>

> Carol

> willis_protocols

> article archive in Files, blog, Links, non-commercial,

> not a discussion group.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> " sharflin " <sharflin@> wrote:

> >

> > I understand magnesium is important but I don't understand the

> > rational

> > for giving one-size-fits-all recommendations for it.

> > If I supplement any magnesium I get heart palpitations

> > and sometimes muscle twitching.

> > Others on this list have said they also do poorly

> > with magnesium. I

> > worked myself into quite a problem taking everyone's advice on

> > magnesium! We're careful to talk about individual needs for other

> > minerals like copper - why not magnesium?

> > Sharon

> >

> > > Magnesium to bowel tolerance is calming and most people do very

> > > well on it. Few Americans even get a minimum

> > > daily requirement of 200-400 mg magnesium. I consider 400 mg

> > > magnesium a minimum for adults.

> >

>