Re: using iodine with Hashi's

[Guest guest]

You need to know before you start iodine that there are many of us

hashi's who could not tolerate it. There are numerous studies out

there proving that it can cause problems for hashi's and that has been

my experience as well.

Also, many hashi's are positive for TSI antibodies which means they

can go into Grave's. And iodine is definitely contraindicated in that

case.

And there are many who will tell you that you just need to take a high

enough dose and you won't have problems, but there are many hashi's

who have done that and regretted it.

That being said, there are also many who have had great success with

the high dose iodine protocol, although the majority do not have hashi's.

Now that you know both the up and down sides of it, you can at least

make an informed decision as to whether or not to give it a try.

And if you do, please do let us all know how it goes.

>

> What are the guildelines for folks that have hashis in terms of using

> iodine?

>

> Thank you, in TN

>

>

>

> From: iodine [mailto:iodine ] On

Behalf Of

> ladybugsandbees

> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:22 PM

> iodine

> Subject: Re: ladybugsandbees

>

>

>

> You need to order it from FFP Labs

http://www.helpmythyroid.com/iodine.htm

> The phone number is on this page. Tell them you have no Dr to order

it for

> you and they will assign you to a nurse practitioner who will. Then

when

> you get the results you can schedule a free consultation with Dr.

Flechas.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

If you can, buy a copy of Dr. Brownstein's book on Iodine. There is a chapter in there on Iodine usage with autoimmune thyroid disease. I think once you read it you will understand what to do. The key I believe is in doing the proper protocol. I am not convinced that those that have had issues with iodine and hashi's was due to the iodine but rather due to other issues that were not addressed.

using iodine with Hashi's

What are the guildelines for folks that have hashis in terms of using iodine?

Thank you, in TN

From: iodine [mailto:iodine ] On Behalf Of ladybugsandbeesSent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:22 PMiodine Subject: Re: ladybugsandbees

You need to order it from FFP Labs http://www.helpmythyroid.com/iodine.htm The phone number is on this page. Tell them you have no Dr to order it for you and they will assign you to a nurse practitioner who will. Then when you get the results you can schedule a free consultation with Dr. Flechas.

[Guest guest]

Gracia,

It most certainly is NOT completely wrong and I can tell you that I

and many other hashi's HAVE addressed the other concerns--adrenals,

selenium, ferritin, you name it, took a high enough dose, yet STILL

had problems.

If myself and other hashi's can acknowledge that the high dose iodine

works well for many, but that there is a subset of others who cannot

tolerate it regardless of doing all the 'right' things, why can you

not acknowledge the same?

Your thinking is very abolutist and therefore very unscientific. Even

Brownstein himself does not say that it works for everyone. Why do

you insist on trying to make everyone think that he does?

> >

> > What are the guildelines for folks that have hashis in terms of

using

> > iodine?

> >

> > Thank you, in TN

> >

> >

> >

> > From: iodine [mailto:iodine ] On

> Behalf Of

> > ladybugsandbees

> > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:22 PM

> > iodine

> > Subject: Re: ladybugsandbees

> >

> >

> >

> > You need to order it from FFP Labs

> http://www.helpmythyroid.com/iodine.htm

> > The phone number is on this page. Tell them you have no Dr to order

> it for

> > you and they will assign you to a nurse practitioner who will. Then

> when

> > you get the results you can schedule a free consultation with Dr.

> Flechas.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Gracia,

Why does Brownstein say in his 3rd edition of his book that in his

clinical practice - that the iodine doses are 6 mg. - 50 mg.?

did he just fail to consult with you first?

cindi

>

>

> if my memory serves me right--you took 10mg cortef and 1/4-1/2

grain of Armour, right? then you tried 12.5mg Iodoral?

> you would be more successful with 5 mg cortef 4X a day. then add

25mg Iodoral 2X a day. then add Armour.

> in your case the doses really were the prob. those doses would be

a big prob for me too.

[Guest guest]

> Have you addressed detoxification pathways and

> methylation? That is what

> some of the clinicians are beginning to find is an issue.

>

>

There are often genetic problems with detox and

methylation, which can sometimes be partially or fully

overcome with certain nutritional factors,

but all this is still in its infancy IMO, with much controversy

surrounding various approaches. Gotta start somewhere though!

We are eyewitness to history in the making.

Carol

willis_protocols

[see my Links>Tests, and Links>Methylation folders for more info]

[Guest guest]

why not, steph?

because if you're gonna allow someone (Gracia) to tell everyone that

50 mg. is the Right Dose and not put a stop to that

foolishness....then you too have passed over into some iodine fantasy

land too...and need to be brought back to reality. gracia's advice is

very dangerous advice. in fact you have said so in the past - and so

has zoe.

and folks like me who dare to issue a caution about iodine - we

always get emails from folks who are scared to say a thing on this

forum about their adverse high iodine experience. why this has

become a cult like iodine group unwilling to listen to the adverse

experiences folks are having - and even berating them for it - I

don't know. I've even wondered if that is why Zoe backed out of the

whole thing.

personally, it's fine with me for you to ban me. or if you put me on

moderation for saying what so many others are thinking, well I'll

just leave. But this crap about 50 mg. for all - when folks are

getting sick from that protocol - and it's not because they need to

do this or that - it's because perhaps it's just what Brownstein says-

some folks just need 6 mg...well this needs to be told to people.

no point in making folks sick.

and yes...I agree with what you said below - and it's a protocol that

i think is excellent for hashi's folks. start low and work up. It's

discussed on another forum actually...and works quite well. So how

do you get someone's attention (gracia) to get them to stop refuting

the fact that hashi's folks can indeed be sensitive to iodine and may

not be able to take 50 mg. it really does get rather tiring to

continually put up with his ignorance from someone who doesn't even

has autoimmune thyroid disease. you got a better way

than " snotty " ...i'm all ears.

cindi

>

> Let's not get snotty here. He said that he uses 6 - 50 mgs (and we

> discussed this when writing this) because he has children he is

treating as

> well - like mine who are on low doses along with patients who are

somewhat

> sensitive to it and they are started at a lower dose and worked

up. He did

> tell me that autoimmune people tend to have issues on lower doses

of Iodine.

> Keep in mind that this range is not necessarily for hashi's only.

It is for

> all patients.

[Guest guest]

I also have been contacted off list by others both on this and other

groups I'm on (of which Gracia and Sam are also on) who have had

adverse experiences with iodine and realize that if they post, they

will repeatedly be told they didn't do this or that thing correctly,

even if they did do all those things.

And none of us have every said that it's ONLY due to hashi's, but that

more hashi's than others seem to have a problem with it, as is borne

out by much of the scientific studies out there. Many hashi's are

found to be positive for TSI antibodies, which are the Grave's

antibodies, and Grave's people can tell you from personal experience

what happens when they take too much iodine, even ending up in the ER.

This is reminiscent of the T.S Wiley hormone protocol, where she

advocated huge doses of progesterone that were equivalent to the

amount of P in a pregnancy, along with estrogen. After many months

of strictly following the protocol, many women were getting serious

symptoms that continued to worsen. Even after stopping all hormones

and giving it months to a year, many of these women are still very

sick from doing the protocol.

Yet when they posted about it or directly questioned Wiley, her

response was always to refuse to believe that it just isn't a

one-size-fits-all approach, and to accuse the person of not following

this or that part of the protocol, despite the fact that the women

did follow it to a 'T' because they were so desperate for it to work.

Why cannot someone simply post a caution for the benefit of those who

may be prone to having problems with iodine without someone feeling

the need to get defensive and argue about it? It's called informed

consent and people have the right to know both sides.

>

> Yes but you are hammering away at this hashi's and no iodine based

on your

> own personal experience as much as she touts 50 mgs. I have given you

> biochemistry pathways of why higher doses are needed to help with

hashi's.

> I would like to see biochemistry as to why it is NOT a good idea.

>

> Forget the fact that Gracia states that 50 mgs is best. It is being

dealt

> with. Enough said.

>

> Again for the record - I do not advocate 50 mgs for all patients! I do

> advocate digging deeper into the cause of why your body cannot

tolerate it.

> There has to be an underlying reason other than it is Hashi's

because there

> are many many that are using it with Hashi's. If it were a big

issue then I

> know it would have been on the discussion list at the iodine

conferences as

> bromide has been - but it wasn't.

>

> Also for the record I would like to hear from those that have issues

with

> taking Iodine if there is so much off group discussion. This is why I

> created that poll. It allows for anonymous feedback without and

" attack " if

> that is what you feel will happen (which I hope you understand I

will not

> allow). Please do speak up because this is not a cult of Iodine

worshipers.

> We are here to seek out the truth but along with that comes science.

There

> have been too many flippant remarks that are not backed up by

scientific

> data. It is one thing to ask if there is a connection and another

to say I

> have " X " and therefore it must be related to the iodine.

>

> We are all on a journey here. I relate what I know from Dr. Brownstein

> because he is my closest resource. But I have expanded and now have

> connections to several other doctors who are using it in their

practice and

> soon I will be able to balance it with their experiences as well.

>

> Let's try to be civil and discuss things like adults. Because we

are all

> here to learn, improve our health and teach others what we have

learned. I

> know this is my goal and the reason why Zoe started the group. And

no she

> did back down from the group due to issues here. So lets not start an

> undertow in the group please. We have a good thing going and there is

> nothing like it out there. Let's keep it up.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" ladybugsandbees " <ladybugsandbees@...> wrote:

> biochemistry pathways of why higher doses are needed

> to help with hashi's.

> I would like to see biochemistry as to why it is NOT a good idea.

It was explained by my MD in 1994,

and backed up by her ENT colleague, that Hashi antibodies

attack the thyroid and by extension its output

as thyroid hormone is being produced,

but the antibodies do not attack circulating thyroid

that comes from thyroid meds.

Antibody numbers will come down to a great extent when

thyroid med is given to treat hashi, depending on how

low you suppress the TSH with thyroid med

(and how low to suppress the thyroid is very controversial -

I estimate some plusses and minuses whether you suppress to

zero or leave TSH at ~1.0).

Also controversial is

when to begin giving thyroid med in hashi, whether by

antibody dx and symptoms alone even before TSH is under 2.0,

or how long to let the thryoid burn out -

sometimes symptoms are so severe that Drs give thyroid sooner

than they would prefer otherwise (-> tradeoffs).

If thyroid is not entirely dead and TSH levels not entirely

suppressed, if you give a substance to make the thyroid

" produce " , then any remaining antibodies may come out to

attack the thyroid, so then you get thyroid inflammation (Hashi

being chronic lymphocytic thyroiditis), with systemic

ramifications (thyrotoxic, hyperthyroid, or other related

inflammatory symptoms). Any special Graves antibodies

also present would add further complexity.

--

on a side note...

There may be an element of past or ongoing chronic infection

in regard to hashi, analogous to the old war veteran who is

still having nightmares several decades after the war is over.

There is so much " charge " or reactivity still " up " in his

body/mind that it's difficult to differentiate past and present.

--

another note...

Biochem pathways don't always work quite as advertised, and

we can manifest individual differences, due to

genetic, functional, nutritional etc causes.

For example, how differently

people react to pregnenolone or DHEA supps. Or look at the

Krebs cycle via an organic acids test. I wonder if our

vaccination history plays a role as well in how our biochem

pathways work, Th1 vs. Th2 immunity,

infections, and later inflammatory tendencies.

The body is a complex interconnected system. It has a history

and a memory. It has a job to do, and is doing it the best

it can. My sense is that many undesirable symptoms, especially

in the case of inflammation, are just the body trying to do

its job.

Carol Willis

Nov 12, 2007

cbwillis9@...

willis_protocols

[see my Links>Hormones>Thyroid, and Links>Nutrients folders]

[Guest guest]

Thank you DR. Lanphier for the great, informative post.

Before starting Iodine I had taken Essiac Tea as a cleanse. I don't know if this is what helped, but when I kicked it up to 50 mg., I have had NO bad side effects at all. No detox symptoms at all. I was wondering if there were something wrong with me, because I hadn't? :-) Has anyone else used Essiac and what are your thoughts on it? I would like to start a cleanse that better works on liver/gall bladder. I often have pain in the gall bladder area (I am assuming its my GB). So anyone that has used a good liver/gall bladder cleanse, please let me know. I was thinking about using the olive oil/apple cider vinagar one but was a bit afraid of getting a gall stone stuck.

Thanks,

Janie

>> I hardly ever post on this forum but I usually read each post. , I> am so glad to read what you wrote about detoxification. I have found,> through healing from stage 3 colon cancer in 2001, and now from dealing with> clients, that digestive tract cleansing and liver/gallbladder cleansing are> imperative towards getting healthy, from absolutely anything.

[Guest guest]

I'm glad to hear that anyone in this group is " all ears. " Okay,

here's my two-cents worth: " Snotty " is counterproductive and

inappropriate in all circumstances, with all subjects. If you want

to try a " better way, " simply try " adult " for a change. It

works. " Snotty " is going to drive a lot of us away from this group.

It's hard enough to try to reason through this morass of information,

not all of which is accurate, without people sniping at each other.

As for dosing, I see intermittent references to " pulsing " doses --

using a significant dose for a short time, then taking a break for as

long as an individual needs in order to stabiliize. That's what I

started doing before I saw the suggestion on this group, and it

works for me. Some experimentation with the " on " days' dose and with

the number of days off, might give even those who are sensitive, or

have " Hashi's " and have problems with high doses a chance to build

their iodine reserves (and tolerance) over time. My hunch is that

eventually I'll be able to tolerate a reasonable dose on a daily (or

nearly daily) basis, though if I can never do that comfortably, I'll

continue doing what I'm doing.

I don't know if I have " Hashi's " or any other thyroid condition

because I've had no thyroid diagnostic work done. I'm just feeling

my way along and basing my dosing on my personal symptoms. I think

Dr. Brownstein says in his book that treatment approaches need to be

individualized. I've had what was diagnosed as CFS and FMS since

1995 and have been unable to work since 1996. I'm starting to feel

human again for the first time in years. I appreciate this group,

but I do find it difficult and unpleasant to sort through the rather

frequent personal haranguing.

Barbara

Let's not get snotty here. He said that he uses 6 - 50 mgs (and we

discussed this when writing this) because he has children he is

treating as well - like mine who are on low doses along with

patients who are somewhat sensitive to it and they are started at a

lower dose and worked up. He did tell me that autoimmune people tend

to have issues on lower doses of Iodine.

Keep in mind that this range is not necessarily for hashi's only.

It is for all patients.

[Guest guest]

hammering? once a month or so is hammering?

but i can't ever forget the fact that Gracia states " 50 mg. for all "

because I (and others) keep hearing the fallout from that bad advice.

i don't like seeing folks get sick when it just doesn't have to

happen. if no one had had adverse effects from that advice, it would

be a different story...

But when i posted that the other day, I must admit I had been at the

dentist that day...and had had a pain pill (vicodin) or two...and I'm

quite sure I was feeling rather - um...uninhibited? :-) ordinarily,

i just ignore her bad advice and advise others to do the same if

asked about it....and so I'll go back to that stance. so sorry for

the unvarnished truthful feelings that came out...i prefer to keep

those thoughts not on a public forum...

I do find it hard to believe you also believe folks must be able to

tolerate 50 mg. Iodine. it just doesn't even make good common

sense....and isn't even what your doc promotes...but there are enough

of us behind the scenes who are amazed at this high dose " iodine

mindset " ...that I don't feel alone in my amazement....so i'll just go

back to semi-lurk mode....

cindi

>

> Yes but you are hammering away at this hashi's and no iodine based

on your

> own personal experience as much as she touts 50 mgs. I have given

you

> biochemistry pathways of why higher doses are needed to help with

hashi's.

> I would like to see biochemistry as to why it is NOT a good idea.

>

> Forget the fact that Gracia states that 50 mgs is best. It is

being dealt

> with. Enough said.

>

> Again for the record - I do not advocate 50 mgs for all patients!

I do

> advocate digging deeper into the cause of why your body cannot

tolerate it.

> There has to be an underlying reason other than it is Hashi's

because there

> are many many that are using it with Hashi's. If it were a big

issue then I

> know it would have been on the discussion list at the iodine

conferences as

> bromide has been - but it wasn't.

>

> Also for the record I would like to hear from those that have

issues with

> taking Iodine if there is so much off group discussion. This is

why I

> created that poll. It allows for anonymous feedback without

and " attack " if

> that is what you feel will happen (which I hope you understand I

will not

> allow). Please do speak up because this is not a cult of Iodine

worshipers.

> We are here to seek out the truth but along with that comes

science. There

> have been too many flippant remarks that are not backed up by

scientific

> data. It is one thing to ask if there is a connection and another

to say I

> have " X " and therefore it must be related to the iodine.

>

> We are all on a journey here. I relate what I know from Dr.

Brownstein

> because he is my closest resource. But I have expanded and now

have

> connections to several other doctors who are using it in their

practice and

> soon I will be able to balance it with their experiences as well.

>

> Let's try to be civil and discuss things like adults. Because we

are all

> here to learn, improve our health and teach others what we have

learned. I

> know this is my goal and the reason why Zoe started the group. And

no she

> did back down from the group due to issues here. So lets not start

an

> undertow in the group please. We have a good thing going and there

is

> nothing like it out there. Let's keep it up.

[Guest guest]

No Hashi's person has said that it's a " given " there will be

problems....what we say is they " may " ....a general caution....

and then we usually take crap from someone for saying it...but it's a

fact...that can be backed up...so we keep saying it because we care

that folks have " informed consent " ....

because the experience ...if anyone is listening/observing...is that

a considerable amount of AITD people ARE having difficulty with high

dose iodine supplementation...and when they have tried to report that

experience, they are told they need to do this or that...or are

berated, etc. and all this...when there are actually some of us who

have put forth our thoughts on " why " these problems are

occurring...but we really just aren't being paid attention too. in

fact I remember being perhaps the first to mention " adrenal support "

for hashi's folks....speculating that perhaps HC lowered hashi's

antibodies (by lowering inflammation?)...and thus by lessening the

antibodies, iodine was better tolerated by the AITD person. I also

early on speculated about early stage/late stage hashi's...and iodine

tolerance, something I see has now been discussed in the 3rd edition

of Iodine. And also many of us hashi's folks are now speculating

about TSH receptor antibodies, as in TSI antibodies (1/3 of have them)

being a factor. It's stunning that Brownstein isn't looking at this

imo. see AITD folks are really intersted in the iodine subject...and

we have really researched the issue...but there are some questions

that just haven't been answered yet.

And then when some of us AITD folks try to discuss these issues...we

get this anger back...or accusations we're fearful...or just

generally against iodine. we aren't. But we have watched - and

corresponded with - fellow Hashi's patients who have gotten very sick

from the 50 mg. for all advice. Some of those folks have been here.

And I'm sorry, but Brownstein has not addressed this issue in depth

in his 3rd edition. I was hopeful he would. But ignoring it..or

denying it...is not making it go away. What is going away - is the

active participation of those hashi's folks who have a valid

experience to share. Because I do not think that it is accurate to

deny that iodine supplementation is different for a AITD person than

a non-AITD person. That is just the experience that has been seen on

this forum and on thyroid forums over the last year or so.

I really wish more was talked about in regards to a different

protocol for AITD folks and iodine...I think that would have been

helpful. Working up from a low dose...monitoring antibodies.

I also think some distinction needs to be made between trying to take

a revised RDA " supplement " of iodine that is protective of

thyroid/breast/etc...which is probably somewhere between 6-13

mg.....as opposed to those who are using iodine as a " medicine " to

achieve some goal. To me...it is okay for some of us to have

different goals in regards to our iodine supplementation. isn't it?

for instance, you say you felt toxic, etc...so i'm thinking you were

having bromide toxicity symptoms? and folks talk about sleeping

better and having good dreams. Well steph...i feel great...sleep

like a baby...and am on detox nutrients already...and am cautious

with my autoimmune status to not to " do to much " to upset a stable

balance. So although I have great interest in iodine, I don't accept

a " one size fits all " approach.

I just think there should be some tolerance for AITD folks and their

concerns/observations....and acknowledgement that we do have special

concerns in regards to iodine. It's really easy for a doc to tell me

to do this or that - but in the final analysis...it's me who is

looking out for me....and who cares the most...and so I'm

appreciative when an iodine advocate points out the AITD iodine

distinction:

http://www.donaldmiller.com/JPandS%20Extrathyroidal%20Benefits%20of%

20Iodine.pdf

The vast majority of people WITHOUT THYROID DISEASE can take iodine

in doses from 10 mg. to 200 mg./day without any clinically adverse

affects on thyroid function.

Cindi

>

>

What I have said is that the stance that hashi's folks

> will more than likely have issues with iodine is not what the

iodine docs

> are saying. I would never say that all people must take 50 mgs or

I would

> have my hubby who has been dx'd with hashi's on 50 mgs or more. He

is

> currently taking 37.5 mgs of Iodoral under the direction of Dr

Brownstein.

[Guest guest]

I found some interesting information, with references, about historical use of Lugol’s for Hypothyroidism, Hashi’s and Graves. It was only with the use of iodized salt that these increased with the use of iodine, of the wrong kind. Maybe this is where the concern about iodine and these conditions comes from.

http://www.vrp.com/articles.aspx?page=LIST & ProdID=1766 & qid= & zTYPE=2

“Iodine was first added to sodium chloride (table salt) in the 1920s in the US. That practice gave a false sense of iodine sufficiency and resulted in the public relying on iodized salt for supplementation instead of the previously used forms of iodine and iodide found in the Lugol solution, a 5 percent solution of 50 mg iodine and 100 mg potassium iodide per milliliter that was commonly used by medical practitioners. However, by the 1950s, most physicians forgot their predecessors were using amounts of iodine/iodide two orders of magnitude greater than the amounts present in the average daily consumption of table salt. In addition, although supplementation with both iodine and iodide produces the most desirable effects, table salt supplies only iodine.

Hypothyroidism

Iodine deficiency is likely one of the causes of the current hypothyroid epidemic. In several communities worldwide, an increased incidence of chronic autoimmune thyroiditis (inflammation of the thyroid gland) was reported following the adding of iodine to table salt.9 Mayo Clinic researchers studied the average annual incidence of Hashimoto’s thyroiditis (a type of autoimmune thyroiditis that causes hypothyroidism) among women of Olmsted County, Minnesota during three consecutive periods from 1935 to 1967.10 They found there was a progressive increase in the incidence of Hashimoto " s thyroiditis after the introduction of iodinated table salt.

Prior to the iodinization of salt, autoimmune thyroiditis was almost non-existent in the US although Lugol solution and potassium iodide were used extensively in medical practice in amounts two orders of magnitude greater than the average daily amount ingested from iodized salt. This suggests that inadequate iodine intake aggravated by goitrogens, not excess iodide, was the cause of this condition.9, 11

In addition, the Japanese, who consume plenty of iodine-rich seaweed, have an extremely low incidence of iodine-deficiency goiter and hypothyroidism.12

Graves’ Disease

Graves’ disease represents up to 90 percent of hyperthyroidism. Today, goitrogenic drugs and radioactive iodine are used to manage this condition. However, iodine was used in the treatment of toxic goiter as early as 1840.13 , el al, in a 1930 publication, quoted several authors in the late 1800s and early 1900s who used Lugol solution alone successfully in Graves’ disease, with complete remission, eliminating the need for surgery.14-15”