Re: Mahin's problem

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Maureen. I have not taken any soy products for 5 years. But had no idea about them being cancer producing.

thanks again,

Mahin

One quick thought, Mahin, is to absolutely do not consume any soy products as they depress the thyroid and are known to cause cancerous thyroid tumours.

Maureen

[Guest guest]

Karin, so sorry you had to go through that. This is exactly what I've been afraid of. But the lab doc. already said it's probably benign, so there is no way I would do surgery. I don't like to do biopsy either, prefer to find another way of getting rid of the nodule -- or maybe it'll go away eventually.

Mahin

I had a thyroid lump several years ago, did the biopsy, which was inconclusive and

my endo recommended removal of the thyroid in case it was papillary thyroid cancer.

I had half of my thyroid removed. Ended up the nodule was benign and according to

the surgeon, in about 90%+ cases of this surgery he does, they end up being benign.

Anyway, long story short..........if you do the biopsy and it is inconclusive and they

try to talk you into surgery.....think long and hard, and maybe consider a wait and

see position......watching for continued growth or maybe disappearance or reduction

in size.

Karin

[Guest guest]

One quick thought, Mahin, is to absolutely do not consume any soy products as they depress the thyroid and are known to cause cancerous thyroid tumours.

Maureen

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[Guest guest]

I had a thyroid lump several years ago, did the biopsy, which was inconclusive and

my endo recommended removal of the thyroid in case it was papillary thyroid cancer.

I had half of my thyroid removed. Ended up the nodule was benign and according to

the surgeon, in about 90%+ cases of this surgery he does, they end up being benign.

Anyway, long story short..........if you do the biopsy and it is inconclusive and they

try to talk you into surgery.....think long and hard, and maybe consider a wait and

see position......watching for continued growth or maybe disappearance or reduction

in size.

Karin

-----Original Message-----From: iodine [mailto:iodine ]On Behalf Of mahinmotamedi@...Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 12:52 PMiodine Subject: Mahin's problem

Hi everyone,

I am a bc survivor from the Amazons LIST and I am here because of my thyroid problem. Briefly, here's the background:

1) June 2005, a thyroid ultrasound showed abnormality. A thyroid scan that followed indicated a nodule. Scheduled for another scan after 6 months. No other action taken.

2) November 2005:

Had thyroid panel blood test, the results were:

TSH..........2.480 uIU/ml (Limits: 0.350-5.500)

T4.............8.0 ug/dL (Limits: 4.5-12.0)

T3F...........3.1 pg/mL (Limits: 2.3-4.2)

Did the 24hr Urine Loading Iodine/Iodide test through Dr. Flechas FFP Lab, the results were:

Total Urine VOL: 3,000

I & I Loading...............25L >44 mg/24h

I & I Excretion.............51L >90 % Total

Did consultation with Dr. Flechas who recommended 50 mg daily Iodoral. Did that for about a month but developed sores in mouth and on tongue and deep cuts on tongue. Called Dr. Flechas, he had never heard of that kind of side effect, suggested I stop and start slowly. Took his advice and up to now have had to stop and start many times as I got sores in mouth and pimples on face many times. Now I'm on 1/2 of a 12.4mg Iodoral a day and seem fine so far.

3) January 2006, I began feeling a lump in my throat and had another thyroid ultrasound and scan. Test results indicated a hot, solid nodule (same one, same size) within mid lower part of left thyroid, probably benign thyroid adenoma. A very small trace accumulation identified in lower pole of right thyroid (unrelated), most likely because of "relative attenuation or thinning of the lower pole of right thyroid gland sonographically". No cold nodules were detected. Lab doctor said cancerous nodules are generally cold, soft. Lab report recommended ultrasound guided needle biopsy of the hot nodule for histological assessment. Report also indicated borderline low function of the thyroid. I chose not to have the biopsy. No other action taken.

4) June 2006, had annual physical, everything fine. Thyroid panel test results were:

TSH..........2.332 uIU/ml (Limits: 0.350-5.500)

T4.............8.6 ug/dL (Limits: 4.5-12.0)

T3F...........3.5 pg/mL (Limits: 2.3-4.2)

I still feel the lump, which is very uncomfortable and have been wondering if I should have the needle biopsy done.

I will appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks

Mahin

If this email is spam, report it here:http://www.OnlyMyEmail.com/ReportSpam

[Guest guest]

Don't think you are right on soy causing thyroid tumours.  Can you back that up? On Jul 12, 2006, at 10:58 AM, Maureen wrote: One quick thought, Mahin, is to absolutely do not consume any soy products as they depress the thyroid and are known to cause cancerous thyroid tumours. Maureen

[Guest guest]

soy has been linked to iodine deficiency (by MD)

Gracia

Don't think you are right on soy causing thyroid tumours.

Can you back that up?

On Jul 12, 2006, at 10:58 AM, Maureen wrote:

One quick thought, Mahin, is to absolutely do not consume any soy products as they depress the thyroid and are known to cause cancerous thyroid tumours.

Maureen

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[Guest guest]

Just not true!  Otherwise vegans and vegetarians and Japanese would be dying in droves.  Ridiculous. On Jul 12, 2006, at 1:06 PM, mahinmotamedi@... wrote: Thank you, Maureen. I have not taken any soy products for 5 years. But had no idea about them being cancer producing.   thanks again, Mahin One quick thought, Mahin, is to absolutely do not consume any soy products as they depress the thyroid and are known to cause cancerous thyroid tumours. Maureen

[Guest guest]

Hi Carol,

Thanks for your input. I am planning on seeing a holistic doctor. Have already talked to her and she knows I was waiting to complete my physical so I can see her with test results. I will bring this up.

Thanks again.

Mahin

Hi Mahin,I agree about the borderline low thyroid function, some low dosethyroid med may be useful?Classical homeopathy has been known to shrink likely benignthyroid nodules. Such growths suggest to a homeopath an underlying constitutional or miasmatic tendency (technicalterms in homeopathy) that point them to certain remedy selection.Carol

[Guest guest]

Hi Mahin,

I agree about the borderline low thyroid function, some low dose

thyroid med may be useful?

Classical homeopathy has been known to shrink likely benign

thyroid nodules. Such growths suggest to a homeopath an

underlying constitutional or miasmatic tendency (technical

terms in homeopathy) that point them to certain remedy selection.

Carol

willis_protocols

my article archive in Files, blog, Links, not a discussion group.

[Guest guest]

I'm not on thyroid meds yet. But I've recently started taking about 2000 mg of cod liver oil, which maybe why I have less detox symptoms now.

Mahin

you are NOT on thyroid meds? I think you should be. I wonder if sores in the mouth would be helped by cod liver oil? or maybe something else. Recently when I ran out of CLO for 5 days, I actually developed a sore in my mouth. And my brain went on holiday.

Gracia

[Guest guest]

you are NOT on thyroid meds? I think you should be. I wonder if sores in the mouth would be helped by cod liver oil? or maybe something else. Recently when I ran out of CLO for 5 days, I actually developed a sore in my mouth. And my brain went on holiday.

Gracia

Hi everyone,

I am a bc survivor from the Amazons LIST and I am here because of my thyroid problem. Briefly, here's the background:

1) June 2005, a thyroid ultrasound showed abnormality. A thyroid scan that followed indicated a nodule. Scheduled for another scan after 6 months. No other action taken.

2) November 2005:

Had thyroid panel blood test, the results were:

TSH..........2.480 uIU/ml (Limits: 0.350-5.500)

T4.............8.0 ug/dL (Limits: 4.5-12.0)

T3F...........3.1 pg/mL (Limits: 2.3-4.2)

Did the 24hr Urine Loading Iodine/Iodide test through Dr. Flechas FFP Lab, the results were:

Total Urine VOL: 3,000

I & I Loading...............25L >44 mg/24h

I & I Excretion.............51L >90 % Total

Did consultation with Dr. Flechas who recommended 50 mg daily Iodoral. Did that for about a month but developed sores in mouth and on tongue and deep cuts on tongue. Called Dr. Flechas, he had never heard of that kind of side effect, suggested I stop and start slowly. Took his advice and up to now have had to stop and start many times as I got sores in mouth and pimples on face many times. Now I'm on 1/2 of a 12.4mg Iodoral a day and seem fine so far.

3) January 2006, I began feeling a lump in my throat and had another thyroid ultrasound and scan. Test results indicated a hot, solid nodule (same one, same size) within mid lower part of left thyroid, probably benign thyroid adenoma. A very small trace accumulation identified in lower pole of right thyroid (unrelated), most likely because of "relative attenuation or thinning of the lower pole of right thyroid gland sonographically". No cold nodules were detected. Lab doctor said cancerous nodules are generally cold, soft. Lab report recommended ultrasound guided needle biopsy of the hot nodule for histological assessment. Report also indicated borderline low function of the thyroid. I chose not to have the biopsy. No other action taken.

4) June 2006, had annual physical, everything fine. Thyroid panel test results were:

TSH..........2.332 uIU/ml (Limits: 0.350-5.500)

T4.............8.6 ug/dL (Limits: 4.5-12.0)

T3F...........3.5 pg/mL (Limits: 2.3-4.2)

I still feel the lump, which is very uncomfortable and have been wondering if I should have the needle biopsy done.

I will appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks

Mahin

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[Guest guest]

I am sorry , but it absolutely is true. This is a well known fact, with lots of research to back it up.

I have seen many, many vegans come through my small window of interactions who have major health problems from long term soy use, including depressed thyroid, thyroid tumours, chronic fatigue syndrome, and fertility problems.

There are numerous articles which you can find on the net about the danger of soy consumption. Many are on the Weston A Price Foundation website, www.westonaprice.org Still more on Mercola. The Well Being Journal I believe has some, and many of the medical journals and reviews.

It is a fallacy that Asian populations have historically consummed soy as a main source of dietary protein. They always consummed small amounts of fermented soy (tamari, tempurah) as a condiment. Soy was used primarily as a "green" fertilizer, roasted as animal feed, and was used by the poorest of poor at some points in time as an actual source of human nutrition. Even then it was prepared differently than it is now. Modern soy products are highly processed, almost entirely geneticly modified, and toxic.

Kaayla , PhD, CCN, wrote an extensive book on the dangers of soy. It is The Whole Soy Story, available from New Trends Publishing. It tells the history of soy throughout the world, and then goes in depth into the many problems with soy.

I know that the soy bean is sacred to the vegan community, and many I come in contact with are down right militant about it. But the truth is the truth. I have lots of articles on file from doctors, researchers, and more.

So if you are looking to maintain or restore thyroid health (or reproductive, gastro-intestinal, etc.), stay away from soy!

Maureen

Just not true! Otherwise vegans and vegetarians and Japanese would be dying in droves. Ridiculous.

On Jul 12, 2006, at 1:06 PM, mahinmotamedi@... wrote:

Thank you, Maureen. I have not taken any soy products for 5 years. But had no idea about them being cancer producing.

thanks again,

Mahin

One quick thought, Mahin, is to absolutely do not consume any soy products as they depress the thyroid and are known to cause cancerous thyroid tumours.

Maureen

[Guest guest]

For one, all three of those groups typically eat their soy fermented

(especially the Japanese) - fermentation nullifies a lot of the

cancerous effects of phytoestrogens. Also keep in mind that not

all Vegans and Vegetarians eat soy. There

are plenty of other legumes out there that offer protein such as

lentils. And any legume in combination with any grain makes a

complete protein so there is no real reason for Vegans to eat a lot of

soy. I know a handful of Vegans who understand the dangers of

unfermented soy products and avoid them.

For two, last I checked, not everyone who gets cancer dies.

Actually, most of the people I know with cancer are living mostly

happily and fairly healthy - albeit with a handful of annoying doctor's

appointments and sometimes chemo related issues.

For three, there are numerous other health conditions unfermented

phytoestrogens can cause - not just thyroid cancer. Human beings

simply arn't meant to be eating plant estrogens. (Especially not

human males, who have little exposure to estrogen normally.)

Estrogen, even in a human form, such as in birth control, can severely

deplete numerous nutrients including all of your antioxidents (A, C, D,

E - which happen to be your first line of defense against cancer) as

well as B vitamins, Iodine, etc.

-Lana

On 7/12/06, Cassidy <christinecassidy@...> wrote:

Just not true! Otherwise vegans and vegetarians and Japanese would be dying in droves. Ridiculous.

On Jul 12, 2006, at 1:06 PM,

mahinmotamedi@... wrote: Thank you, Maureen. I have not taken any soy products for 5 years. But had no idea about them being cancer producing.

thanks again, Mahin

[Guest guest]

As a long time vegetarian and someone who not only has been to Japan but does a lot of Japanese cooking I would say I am very familiar with what these three groups typically eat Lana.  They use miso, natto, tempeh in Indonesia, and tofu.  That not all vegans & vegetarians use soy goes without saying - I am very familiar with the variety of diets, just all not all omnivores eat red meat.  Nutrition has been a personal interest of research and study all my life, so I am not uninformed about beans and grains and lots more. There is just no evidence that I have seen offered here to support this statement saying soy causes cancer.  I just do not believe this is true.Of course people who get cancer survive, what does that have to do with this?Some people belive human beings aren't meant to eat other animals, but they do, so who is to say what people are or aren't meant to eat.JUst don't agree with you.  Can we return to iodine now please?On Jul 13, 2006, at 5:54 AM, Lana Gibbons wrote: For one, all three of those groups typically eat their soy fermented (especially the Japanese) - fermentation nullifies a lot of the cancerous effects of phytoestrogens.  Also keep in mind that not all Vegans and Vegetarians eat soy.  There are plenty of other legumes out there that offer protein such as lentils.  And any legume in combination with any grain makes a complete protein so there is no real reason for Vegans to eat a lot of soy.  I know a handful of Vegans who understand the dangers of unfermented soy products and avoid them. For two, last I checked, not everyone who gets cancer dies.  Actually, most of the people I know with cancer are living mostly happily and fairly healthy - albeit with a handful of annoying doctor's appointments and sometimes chemo related issues. For three, there are numerous other health conditions unfermented phytoestrogens can cause - not just thyroid cancer.  Human beings simply arn't meant to be eating plant estrogens.  (Especially not human males, who have little exposure to estrogen normally.)  Estrogen, even in a human form, such as in birth control, can severely deplete numerous nutrients including all of your antioxidents (A, C, D, E - which happen to be your first line of defense against cancer) as well as B vitamins, Iodine, etc. -Lana On 7/12/06, Cassidy <christinecassidy@...> wrote: Just not true!  Otherwise vegans and vegetarians and Japanese would be dying in droves.  Ridiculous On Jul 12, 2006, at 1:06 PM, mahinmotamedi@... wrote: Thank you, Maureen. I have not taken any soy products for 5 years. But had no idea about them being cancer producing.   thanks again, Mahin

[Guest guest]

There are 30 pages of reference notes in the back of The Whole Soy Story! Thirty pages of extensive notes! This is quite well documented.

It does pertain to iodine because all of us on this list, I believe, are interested in this topic because of thyroid health. So the fact that soy has been well documented to cause thyroid depression and cancer is quite relevant!

We can understand what human beings are meant to eat by examing our bodies and human health throughout history. Cows digest grasses for energy and nutrients. Humans beings can not. So is it true that we can not say what human beings are or are not to eat? Should I go out into my pasture and eat grass alongside my cow?

All of the soy products you mentioned, btw, except for tofu, are fermented. Very important. And not typically eaten in large amounts.

I don't mean to stir up trouble. The soy information is *very* relevant to our discussions. It should be examined with care, not dismissed because of personal feelings or preferences.

"Read the book"!

Respectfully,

Maureen

As a long time vegetarian and someone who not only has been to Japan but does a lot of Japanese cooking I would say I am very familiar with what these three groups typically eat Lana. They use miso, natto, tempeh in Indonesia, and tofu. That not all vegans & vegetarians use soy goes without saying - I am very familiar with the variety of diets, just all not all omnivores eat red meat. Nutrition has been a personal interest of research and study all my life, so I am not uninformed about beans and grains and lots more.

There is just no evidence that I have seen offered here to support this statement saying soy causes cancer. I just do not believe this is true.

Of course people who get cancer survive, what does that have to do with this?

Some people belive human beings aren't meant to eat other animals, but they do, so who is to say what people are or aren't meant to eat.

JUst don't agree with you. Can we return to iodine now please?

..

[Guest guest]

,I would just like to point out that miso, natto, and tempeh are always fermented. I'm not sure about the tofu.-LanaOn 7/13/06, Cassidy

<christinecassidy@...> wrote:

As a long time vegetarian and someone who not only has been to Japan but does a lot of Japanese cooking I would say I am very familiar with what these three groups typically eat Lana. They use miso, natto, tempeh in Indonesia, and tofu.

[Guest guest]

There is a preponderance on info in the

book “The Whole Soy Story” which does talk about soy and

cancer. I don’t have time right now to go through it all but I will

try to put it on the site tonight.

Allyn

From:

iodine [mailto:iodine ] On Behalf Of Cassidy

Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 2:43

PM

iodine

Subject: Re: Mahin's

problem

I don't

have time to browse Weston Price's entire site looking for your so called

evidence. If you have facts and references and scientific studies to prove soy

causes thyroid cancer please post them, otherwise this is all opinion and

conjecture.

Also, I never said Asian populations consumed soy as a main source of

protein, I know they didn't and don't now.

Just because you see vegans with health problems that doesn't support

this claim. There are a lot of other factors at work in this polluted world,

mercury and fluoride poisoning being prime factors in thyroid and endocrine

problems.

I don't use soy anymore, so you don't need to tell me to stay away from

it , I have already done my research.

Show me the science, not your opinion.

On Jul 13, 2006, at 5:11 AM, Maureen wrote:

I am sorry , but it absolutely is true. This is a

well known fact, with lots of research to back it up.

I have seen many, many vegans come through my small window

of interactions who have major

health problems from long term soy use, including depressed thyroid, thyroid

tumours, chronic fatigue syndrome, and fertility problems.

There are numerous articles which you can find on the net

about the danger of soy consumption. Many are on the Weston A Price Foundation

website, www.westonaprice.org Still

more on Mercola. The Well Being Journal I believe has some, and many of the

medical journals and reviews.

It is a fallacy that Asian populations have historically

consummed soy as a main source of dietary protein. They always consummed small

amounts of fermented soy (tamari, tempurah) as a condiment. Soy was used

primarily as a " green " fertilizer, roasted as animal feed, and was

used by the poorest of poor at some points in time as an actual source of human

nutrition. Even then it was prepared differently than it is now. Modern soy products

are highly processed, almost entirely geneticly modified, and toxic.

Kaayla , PhD, CCN, wrote an extensive book on the

dangers of soy. It is The

Whole Soy Story, available from New Trends Publishing.

It tells the history of soy throughout the world, and then goes in depth into

the many problems with soy.

I know that the soy bean is sacred to the vegan community,

and many I come in contact with are down right militant about it. But the truth

is the truth. I have lots of articles on file from doctors, researchers, and

more.

So if you are looking to maintain or restore thyroid health

(or reproductive, gastro-intestinal, etc.), stay away from soy!

Maureen

Just not

true! Otherwise vegans and vegetarians and Japanese would be dying in droves.

Ridiculous.

On Jul 12, 2006, at 1:06 PM, mahinmotamedi@...

wrote:

Thank you, Maureen. I

have not taken any soy products for 5 years. But had no idea about them being

cancer producing.

thanks again,

Mahin

One quick thought, Mahin, is to absolutely

do not consume any soy products as they depress the thyroid and are known to

cause cancerous thyroid tumours.

Maureen

[Guest guest]

, I am pointing you to the science. I will try to type up specific quotes and references later, but my time is limited as I have quite a few young children to take care of (my own). But give me time and I will get some references out.

In the meantime, if you have more time available to you than perhaps I do, the website I mentioned is easy to navigate and full of information. The book is likely available at your local library.

Therein lies the science, not just my opinion.

Many people are under the impression that Asiam peoples have historically consummed soy much more heavily, and differently, than they have and do. That is why I mention it.

Many of the vegans I see fit right in with the information I am talking about with thyroid, fertility, and gut damage. They are sad stories which sometimes move me to tears. Sometimes the damage done seems insurmountable, and may be. Others are able to recover rather well, but of course this depends on a variety of factors. The problem is not always just soy, but also total lack of animal foods which means a lack of all those nutrients particular to such.

I am only meaning to be of some help to people here by providing some information which I myself am greatly appreciative of having received. I used to feed this stuff to my family fairly heavily and feel that this my be a big part of why I am hypo (along with low fat and many pregnancies in a relatively short period of time).

I did not mean to offend you, and hope you will take the time to look at some of the sources I offered.

Thanks!

Maureen

I don't have time to browse Weston Price's entire site looking for your so called evidence. If you have facts and references and scientific studies to prove soy causes thyroid cancer please post them, otherwise this is all opinion and conjecture.

Also, I never said Asian populations consumed soy as a main source of protein, I know they didn't and don't now.

Just because you see vegans with health problems that doesn't support this claim. There are a lot of other factors at work in this polluted world, mercury and fluoride poisoning being prime factors in thyroid and endocrine problems.

I don't use soy anymore, so you don't need to tell me to stay away from it , I have already done my research.

Show me the science, not your opinion.

..

[Guest guest]

>From: Cassidy <christinecassidy@...>

If you have facts and references and

>scientific studies to prove soy causes thyroid cancer please post them,

>otherwise this is all opinion and conjecture.

I've never heard the claim made before.

However, (speculation I know) my thyroid doc claimed that thyroid cancer is

caused by TSH. Because when TSH is present, and the thyroid can't keep up

the cells multiply and swell in an attempt to increase production. This

multiplication of cells makes cancer much more likely.

Which implies that if one got thyroid treatment at an earlier stage, it

might not turn into thyroid cancer.

I assume soy also elevates TSH (that doesn't mean out of the normal range,

only enough to cause the thyroid to strain) which would essentially be the

same situation. It makes sense to me, but I don't know if there is any

scientific evidence for it.

Skipper

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Not only fermented, but fermented by artisans who took up to 3 years in

the process. Would love to know the exact process, but suppose would

have to go to Japanese fermentation school.

On Jul 13, 2006, at 9:38 AM, Lana Gibbons wrote:

> I would just like to point out that miso, natto, and tempeh are always

> fermented.  I'm not sure about the tofu.

>

> -Lana

Parashis

artpages@...

zine:

artpagesonline.com

portfolio:

http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html

[Guest guest]

I have no real opinion in this debate but I recently met a man who's family was in ruins and he couldn't figure out why. The wife he was devoted to left him, his son was in prison and his daughter dropped out of school, got pregnant but miscarried. He seemed to me to be a wonderful person. The whole family had been vegan/vegetarian since b4 kids were born. I told him soy might be a problem and he said he had just heard of that. He was extremely skinny and not very "male" looking. FWIW

Gracia

, I am pointing you to the science. I will try to type up specific quotes and references later, but my time is limited as I have quite a few young children to take care of (my own). But give me time and I will get some references out.

In the meantime, if you have more time available to you than perhaps I do, the website I mentioned is easy to navigate and full of information. The book is likely available at your local library.

Therein lies the science, not just my opinion.

Many people are under the impression that Asiam peoples have historically consummed soy much more heavily, and differently, than they have and do. That is why I mention it.

Many of the vegans I see fit right in with the information I am talking about with thyroid, fertility, and gut damage. They are sad stories which sometimes move me to tears. Sometimes the damage done seems insurmountable, and may be. Others are able to recover rather well, but of course this depends on a variety of factors. The problem is not always just soy, but also total lack of animal foods which means a lack of all those nutrients particular to such.

I am only meaning to be of some help to people here by providing some information which I myself am greatly appreciative of having received. I used to feed this stuff to my family fairly heavily and feel that this my be a big part of why I am hypo (along with low fat and many pregnancies in a relatively short period of time).

I did not mean to offend you, and hope you will take the time to look at some of the sources I offered.

Thanks!

Maureen

I don't have time to browse Weston Price's entire site looking for your so called evidence. If you have facts and references and scientific studies to prove soy causes thyroid cancer please post them, otherwise this is all opinion and conjecture.

Also, I never said Asian populations consumed soy as a main source of protein, I know they didn't and don't now.

Just because you see vegans with health problems that doesn't support this claim. There are a lot of other factors at work in this polluted world, mercury and fluoride poisoning being prime factors in thyroid and endocrine problems.

I don't use soy anymore, so you don't need to tell me to stay away from it , I have already done my research.

Show me the science, not your opinion.

..

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No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 7/13/2006

[Guest guest]

" Wild Fermentation " by Sandor Katz has recipes for a number of the Japanese ferments.

-LanaOn 7/14/06, Parashis <artpages@...> wrote:

Not only fermented, but fermented by artisans who took up to 3 years in

the process. Would love to know the exact process, but suppose would

have to go to Japanese fermentation school.