Re: question on brownstein's iodine study

[Guest guest]

I am not sure that this information is available since he doesn't have access to patients other than the thyroid patients he has. Since other doctors are not eager to use Iodine nor do they test it I think it would be hard to determine what the level is. I don't remember reading it anywhere either.

question on brownstein's iodine study

can someone clarify or point me to the additional info...Brownstein initially tested 24 patients in his office for iodine status...and found that 91.7% tested low for iodine levels. These patients were thyroid patients at various stages. Is there anywhere in his book (maybe i just can't find it) or any additional info that he has presented....on how the iodine deficiency of thyroid disorder patients compares with the general population?cindi

[Guest guest]

i'm surprised the initial study was only 24 patients...although

elsewhere in the Townsend info, I belive I saw mention of them

having now tested far more.

speaking of the Townsend letter and the exchanges with Gaby, was

there ever any rebuttal after April 2006? this is the last one I

can find below...and i'm curious as to any rebuttals about the heart

problems in the last paragraph:

This is Alan Gaby's reply to the April 2006 rebuttal. . .

Drs. Abraham and Brownstein argue that it is seaweed, not the iodine

in it, that causes thyroid disorders. However, a main aspect of

their iodine hypothesis is that Japanese people are healthy because

they eat a lot of iodine, which in the Japanese diet comes mainly

from seaweed. This seems like a contradiction.

Questioning whether Drs. Abraham and Brownstein have meticulously

monitored their patients for adverse effects is completely different

than suggesting that poor medical care was given, which I did not

suggest. What I said was, " Before one could confidently conclude

that high-dose iodine is safe for 99% of the population (as stated

by Abraham and Brownstein), it seems that a systematic toxicity

study would be necessary. " I suggested that such a study should

include serial testing of all patients to identify the appearance of

thyroid antibodies during treatment with iodine, since iodine

supplementation has been reported to increase the incidence of

thyroiditis. Thyroid-antibody measurements may not be necessary as a

component of routine medical care, but they would seem to be

necessary before one could confidently claim that high-dose iodine

supplementation does not increase the incidence of autoimmune

thyroiditis. I asked in my rebuttal how many of the iodine-treated

patients had had thyroid-antibody tests, but Drs. Abraham and

Brownstein did not answer my question.

Concerning the report of deaths due to high-dose iodine, here is the

pertinent reference:

Sterling JB, Heymann WR. Potassium iodide in dermatology: a 19th

century drug for the 21st century – uses, pharmacology, adverse

effects, and contraindications.

J Am Acad Dermatol. 2000;43:691-697.

In this review article, the authors state that in the 1920s and

1930s, when potassium iodide (KI) was widely used, many patients

died of KI-induced side effects, particularly pulmonary edema and

associated heart failure.

cindi

>

> I am not sure that this information is available since he doesn't

have access to patients other than the thyroid patients he has.

Since other doctors are not eager to use Iodine nor do they test it

I think it would be hard to determine what the level is. I don't

remember reading it anywhere either.

[Guest guest]

Doesn't kelp/seaweed also have Bromine in it?

I think it was because of this that it was suggested

that a better idea for hypothyroid people is to get

their iodine in a different form than seaweed and kelp

even though that's how the Japanese take it.

I also think I remember something about the TYPE of

kelp the Japanese take being different than what is

available here in the US.

--- cindi22595 <cindi22595@...> wrote:

> i'm surprised the initial study was only 24

> patients...although

> elsewhere in the Townsend info, I belive I saw

> mention of them

> having now tested far more.

>

> speaking of the Townsend letter and the exchanges

> with Gaby, was

> there ever any rebuttal after April 2006? this is

> the last one I

> can find below...and i'm curious as to any rebuttals

> about the heart

> problems in the last paragraph:

>

>

> This is Alan Gaby's reply to the April 2006

> rebuttal. . .

> Drs. Abraham and Brownstein argue that it is

> seaweed, not the iodine

> in it, that causes thyroid disorders. However, a

> main aspect of

> their iodine hypothesis is that Japanese people are

> healthy because

> they eat a lot of iodine, which in the Japanese diet

> comes mainly

> from seaweed. This seems like a contradiction.

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

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[Guest guest]

There have been two installments to the debate since April 2006. You can find them here:

http://iodine4health.com/ortho/debate.htm

Zoe

----- Original Message -----

From: cindi22595

speaking of the Townsend letter and the exchanges with Gaby, was there ever any rebuttal after April 2006? this is the last one I can find below...and i'm curious as to any rebuttals about the heart problems in the last paragraph:

[Guest guest]

>

> i'm surprised the initial study was only 24 patients...although

> elsewhere in the Townsend info, I belive I saw mention of them

> having now tested far more.

>

> speaking of the Townsend letter and the exchanges with Gaby, was

> there ever any rebuttal after April 2006? this is the last one I

> can find below...and i'm curious as to any rebuttals about the

heart

> problems in the last paragraph:

Me too. Especially with several of us experiencing palps.

BTW, the article mentioning these extreme toxic reactions

is PMID: 11004629. Unfortunately, I do not have membership

in either of the hosting sites linked from pubmed. Do we

know what doses were involved?

Thanks,

-

www.zenpawn.com/vegblog

> This is Alan Gaby's reply to the April 2006 rebuttal. . .

> Drs. Abraham and Brownstein argue that it is seaweed, not the

iodine

> in it, that causes thyroid disorders. However, a main aspect of

> their iodine hypothesis is that Japanese people are healthy because

> they eat a lot of iodine, which in the Japanese diet comes mainly

> from seaweed. This seems like a contradiction.

>

> Questioning whether Drs. Abraham and Brownstein have meticulously

> monitored their patients for adverse effects is completely

different

> than suggesting that poor medical care was given, which I did not

> suggest. What I said was, " Before one could confidently conclude

> that high-dose iodine is safe for 99% of the population (as stated

> by Abraham and Brownstein), it seems that a systematic toxicity

> study would be necessary. " I suggested that such a study should

> include serial testing of all patients to identify the appearance

of

> thyroid antibodies during treatment with iodine, since iodine

> supplementation has been reported to increase the incidence of

> thyroiditis. Thyroid-antibody measurements may not be necessary as

a

> component of routine medical care, but they would seem to be

> necessary before one could confidently claim that high-dose iodine

> supplementation does not increase the incidence of autoimmune

> thyroiditis. I asked in my rebuttal how many of the iodine-treated

> patients had had thyroid-antibody tests, but Drs. Abraham and

> Brownstein did not answer my question.

>

> Concerning the report of deaths due to high-dose iodine, here is

the

> pertinent reference:

> Sterling JB, Heymann WR. Potassium iodide in dermatology: a 19th

> century drug for the 21st century – uses, pharmacology, adverse

> effects, and contraindications.

> J Am Acad Dermatol. 2000;43:691-697.

>

> In this review article, the authors state that in the 1920s and

> 1930s, when potassium iodide (KI) was widely used, many patients

> died of KI-induced side effects, particularly pulmonary edema and

> associated heart failure.

>

>

> cindi

[Guest guest]

The Sterling article mentioned is on iodine4health here:

http://iodine4health.com/research/sterling_2000_potassium_iodide_dermatology.pdf

BTW, the article mentioning these extreme toxic reactionsis PMID: 11004629. Unfortunately, I do not have membershipin either of the hosting sites linked from pubmed. Do weknow what doses were involved?> Concerning the report of deaths due to high-dose iodine, here is the > pertinent reference: > Sterling JB, Heymann WR. Potassium iodide in dermatology: a 19th > century drug for the 21st century - uses, pharmacology, adverse > effects, and contraindications. > J Am Acad Dermatol. 2000;43:691-697. > > In this review article, the authors state that in the 1920s and > 1930s, when potassium iodide (KI) was widely used, many patients > died of KI-induced side effects, particularly pulmonary edema and > associated heart failure.>

[Guest guest]

thank you.

cindi

>

> There have been two installments to the debate since April 2006. You

can find them here:

>

> http://iodine4health.com/ortho/debate.htm

>

[Guest guest]

I have my questions about Gaby's statement of " many " dying in the

20's & 30's from iodine heart effects. The devil is in the details

sometimes. I went digging. The source he quoted is below.

Some thoughts...the original source of the information on cardiac

effects (see farther down - Hollander & Fetterman) reported 11

deaths. Gaby fails to quote the number. Is he trying to inflate his

claim? Many sounds like more. Not to discount those who died, but

why not be scientific & state the fact? How high was the dosage? How

long? I don't know. I can't get an abstract or full text of the

article. That may be quite relevant to the circumstances. Is not

dosage the bone of contention here?

Also, the article discusses potassium iodide, as opposed to Lugol's

iodide/iodine combination. " KI is a compound made of 76% of the

halogen iodine and 23% of the alkali metal potassium by

weight " Could the potassium in the compound be a factor or co-factor

in any of the side-effects experienced? Lugol's contains 5 percent

of elemental iodine in a 10 percent solution of potassium iodide.

Does this variation in the potassium make a difference?

Some text from the article Gaby quotes:

Potassium iodide in dermatology: a 19th century drug for the 21st

century-uses, pharmacology, adverse effects, and contraindications.

http://iodine4health.com/research/sterling_2000_potassium_iodide_derm

atology.pdf

" ...Clinicians typically begin treatment of inflammatory dermatoses

with an oral dose of 300 mg (approximately 6 drops of SSKI) 3

times daily, followed by weekly increases as tolerated. 1 The dose

used for mycoses is often higher,beginning at 600 mg (approximately

12 drops of SSKI) orally 3 times daily and often increased to 6 g

(approximately 127 drops of SSKI) daily if tolerated...They found

marked improvement after 2 months and complete clearing after 4

months using a dose of 300 mg 3 times daily...Adults initially

start KI therapy for sporotrichosis at 500 to 1500 mg daily divided

into 3 doses and gradually increase to 4000 to 6000 mg daily and

then continue for approximately 6 to 10 weeks... "

Hmmm...some good-sized doses here. Not to the 12.5mg/day Brownstein

advocates as a daily regime, but significantly higher than the WHO's

UTL.

Note that some of the side effects listed below are due to POTASSIUM

toxicity. Could this mean that the Japanese don't experience these

side effects because they consume their iodine via seaweed, which I

am making the assumption does not have the same levels of potassium?

" ...With prolonged use, patients may experience symptoms of iodism

or potassium toxicity. Symptoms of iodism including a burning mouth,

increased watering of the mouth, a metallic taste, soreness of the

teeth and gums, and severe headache. Signs and symptoms of potassium

toxicity include confusion, arrhythmia, hand numbness, or general

weakness. Patients with renal function impairment or those taking

angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitors or potassium-sparing

diuretics are at increased risk for potassium toxicity.7 KI has also

been reported to cause pulmonary edema, angioedema, myalgias,

eosinophilia, lymphadenopathy, and urticaria.32-36 KI has also been

reported to trigger vasculitis,37 periarteritis nodosa,38 pustular

psoriasis,39 prolonged fever,40,41 a negative anion gap,42 metabolic

acidosis,43 cardiac irritability,44 and bullous pemphigoid.45 KI is

well known to aggravate dermatitis herpetiformis. Before the

widespread use of direct immunofluorescence, KI was used topically

by clinicians to induce dermatitis herpetiformis lesions for

diagnostic purposes.46,47

Reported side effects of potassium iodide

Bullous pemphigoid45, Dermatitis herpetiformis46,47

Iododerma*48-53, Fetal and neonatal goiter*7,61,62,

Hypothyroidism*8,55, Hyperthyroidism*8, Negative ion gap42,

Metabolic acidosis43, Potassium toxicity*7, Diarrhea7, Nausea7,

Vomiting7, Stomach pain7, Cardiac irritability*44, Iodism (mouth

soreness, headache)7, Pulmonary edema, angioedema,myalgias,

eosinophilia, lymphadenopathy, and urticaria*32-36, Periarteritis

nodosa*38, Prolonged fever40,41, Pustular psoriasis*39,

Vasculitis*37... "

In this portion, it is not clear if the skin side effects may be

caused by iodine de-toxing bromine, mercury, fluoride, chloride,

etc, rather than the iodine itself. The authors do note " However,

most of the above-mentioned side effects regress rapidly with

discontinuation of KI " . Thus it would seem that many of the

deliterious effects of high-dose iodine can be avoided with proper

monitoring & dose adjustment.

" ...The use of iodides can also cause acneiform eruptions, typically

consisting of papulopustules or pustules on skin rich in sebaceous

glands.48 More severe eruptions can occur, however, and are

classified as iododerma. These eruptions may appear erythematous,

vesicular, bullous, urticarial, petechial, nodular, or vegetating,

and occur on the face, shoulders, trunk, and extremities.49

Histopathologic changes in acute iododerma reveal a diffuse dermal

inflammatory infiltrate composed mostly of neutrophils with rare

eosinophils, mast cells, and plasma cells.48,50 Chronic lesions

demonstrate pseudoepitheliomatous hyperplasia with a mixed

inflammatory infiltrate.49 Iododerma has been reported in increased

frequency in patients WITH UNDERLYING DISEASES (emphasis mine)

including multiple myeloma, polyarteritis nodosa, rheumatoid

arthritis, lymphoma, and subacute glomerulonephritis, leading some

authors to suggest that systemic disease may predispose patients to

iododerma.49 The exact mechanism of iododerma, however, is unknown,

but may be the result of a hypersensitivity or hyperinflammatory

reaction to iodide.51,52

During the widespread use of KI in the 1920s and 1930s, many

patients died because of the side effects associated with KI, most

notably pulmonary edema and associated heart failure.53 However,

most of the above-mentioned side effects regress rapidly with

discontinuation of KI. If necessary, corticosteroids can be used to

control these side effects... "

The source for the " Many died " comment above is " Hollander L,

Fetterman GH. Fatal iododerma: the eleventh case reported in the

literature. Arch Dermatol Syphilol 1936;34:228-41. 54. Heymann WR.

Cutaneous " . I cannot locate an online abstract or text of it for

further details.

Gaby has questioned Brownstein's assertion that 90% of iodine is

excreted in the urine. It's not just Brownstein saying it - here's

another source of the same info, from the article. I cannot locate

an on-line abstract to get the methodology of determining the

percentage:

" ...Ninety percent of the orally administered dose is excreted

in the urine. Sweat, breast milk, and feces account

for the remainder of the excretion...(Cavalieri R. Iodine metabolism

and thyroid physiology: current concepts.Thyroid 1997;7:177-81)

New Zealand Dermatological Society - Potassium iodide

http://www.dermnetnz.org/treatments/potassium-iodide.html

Interesting that this article presents relatively high doses of

potassium iodine to effectively treat certain conditions -

i.e. " ...Adult: 500-1500mg daily, increasing to 4000-6000mg daily

for 6-10 weeks...First used in early 20th century and continues to

be used today because of its effectiveness and low cost.. " Not as

high as Brownstein certainly, but higher than US standard care.

Another abstract with successful use of KI for disease treatment:

Severe livedo vasculitis treated with potassium iodide

http://www.springerlink.com/content/nf2mdg17622ay64x/

" A young woman presenting severe livedo vasculitis (LV) was

successfully treated with potassium iodide (KI). Previous attempts

to cure her disorder with corticosteroids, low-dose aspirin, and

azathioprine in various combinations had failed. To our knowledge,

this is the first report of LV treated with KI "

Iodine - WHO Food Additive Series

http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v024je11.htm

You can pick thru here for side effects & some dosage info BUT you

really need to think critically. The authors combined research on

both organic AND inorganic iodines. I don't think comparing

amiodorone or radioactive iodinated contrast dye with Lugol's or KI

is the same thing. It does seem to support 1mg/day as a daily long-

term safe UTL (upper tolerable limit), or perhaps 2mg/day based upon

the 15-year study of iodine intake at a prison.

Some old-time dosing suggestions:

An Excerpt from Folk Medicine by D.C. Jarvis, MD

http://www.jcrows.com/iodine.html

" ...In 1880 a French physician named Lugol originated a solution

which contains iodine in a solution of potassium iodide. It has

been used steadily ever since it was originated. When used to

maintain the iodine content of the body the dose is small and is

taken only on certain days of the week. When the mineral content of

the body is analyzed, only a trace of iodine is found. Ten drops of

iodine represent more iodine than is found in the entire body. For

this reason, the dose of Lugol's solution of iodine is one or two

drops, depending on your body weight. If you weigh 150 pounds or

less, for example, your dose to maintain the normal iodine content

of the body is one drop, taken at one meal on Tuesday and Friday of

each week. If you weigh more than 150 pounds, the dose should be two

drops instead of one. It is useful to remember that the human body

works on the minimum of anything it needs. If there should be a rise

in sickness in the area where you live, it would be well to take the

Lugol's solution three times a week instead of two, on Monday,

Wednesday, and Friday, for the purpose of storing up reserve... "

So the optimum dosing debate continues. Gaby may be throwing a red

herring out there with the heart problem comment, since we have no

further info. Perhaps using Lugol's the old-fashioned way in lower

doses is optimal for everyday health, but Brownstein's high-dose

iodine is optimal for disease-treatment. Perhaps the Japanese

tolerate their 13.8mg/day only because it is dietary iodine, not

iodine in solution and it opposes the goitrogenic foods unique to

their culture. Well, I think we all agree the optimum lies somewhere

between 200mcg & 12.5mg

>

> i'm surprised the initial study was only 24 patients...although

> elsewhere in the Townsend info, I belive I saw mention of them

> having now tested far more.

>

> speaking of the Townsend letter and the exchanges with Gaby, was

> there ever any rebuttal after April 2006? this is the last one I

> can find below...and i'm curious as to any rebuttals about the

heart problems in the last paragraph:

> Concerning the report of deaths due to high-dose iodine, here is

the pertinent reference: Sterling JB, Heymann WR. Potassium iodide

in dermatology: a 19th century drug for the 21st century – uses,

pharmacology, adverse effects, and contraindications.

> J Am Acad Dermatol. 2000;43:691-697.

>

> In this review article, the authors state that in the 1920s and

> 1930s, when potassium iodide (KI) was widely used, many patients

> died of KI-induced side effects, particularly pulmonary edema and

> associated heart failure.

>

> cindi