RE: Goitrogens and flax and cooking

August 4, 2006

>From: Heidi <heidis@...>

>The following seems to indicate that

>the goitrogens in cabbage are at least partly

>inactivated by cooking. Hm. Probably

>broccoli isn't cooked as long as muffins ...

Soy needs to be fermented.

I believe the other goiterogens are inactivated by cooking.

I ate raw cabbage for a week, assumed since I was on thyroid medication, it

couldn't do anything to me as Dr. Derry claimed that when TSH was

suppressed, the thyroid wouldn't soak up any iodine, and since I assume it

causes goiter by interfering with iodine, how could it?

Anyway, eating raw cabbage for a week, in spite of thyroid meds, I noticed

my thyroid swelling and started to get that choking feeling. (I think

because my throat structure is so narrow I'm more sensitive to small

increase in thyroid size.)

So, I started cooking it and didn't notice a problem.

Skipper

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August 4, 2006

Heidi,

Was looking around the Flax Council's website and found the

following info that was interesting. Somebody else posted similar

info about flax and thyroid on another group I'm on. I read the link

but it seemed as though they didn't prove that it caused problems

with thyroid. The other info I heard did link large quantities, but

I really don't think very many people consume several cups a day of

flax seeds. I use one to two tablespoons myself. I think the

benefits outweigh any risk.

www.flaxcouncil.ca

Flax Is a Bosom Buddy

There's promising news for BREAST HEALTH. Secoisolariciresinol

glucoside (SDG), abundant in flax, belongs to a class of

phytochemicals called LIGNANS and is chemically similar to the breast

cancer drug tamoxifen. Researchers are finding that SDG has a potent

effect on estrogen levels.

Postmenopausal women consuming 5 or 10 grams of milled flax over

seven weeks showed significant reductions in blood concentrations of

the most potent estrogen, estradiol, and its less potent sister,

estrone. This may be desirable for postmenopausal women who have a

high risk of breast cancer.

The effects of flax on premenopausal breast cancer risk are less

clear. A recent study of 116 premenopausal women found those eating

25 grams of ground flax each day for one year showed no reductions in

estradiol or breast density (dense breasts are associated with

increased breast cancer risk). But a lengthening of the menstrual

cycle was noted.

The most promising research with flax lignans revealed that women

with breast cancer who ate flax muffins showed notable reductions in

breast cancer cell growth.

Another study found that premenopausal women with menstrual cycle-

associated breast pain (cyclical mastalgia) experienced a significant

reduction in pain after eating 25 grams of freshly milled flax in

muffins each day for four months.

Linn

On Aug 4, 2006, at 12:36 PM, Heidi wrote:

>

> I don't recall if this has come up on this list recently,

> but flax, and some other foods, contain goitrogens,

> so a lot of people avoid foods like flax and cabbage.

>

> Anyway, I was reading this, which I found interesting:

>

> http://www.flaxcouncil.ca/english/pdf/FlaxPrimer_Chptr11.pdf

>

> " Consumption of moderate amounts of flax (for example, 1–2 tbsp)

> daily is not likely to pose a health problem for North Americans who

> have adequate intakes of protein and iodine. In several clinical

> studies,

> volunteers ate muffins containing 50 g (5–6 tbsp) of ground flax daily

> for up to six weeks without ill effects. Muffins made with ground flax

> showed no trace of the cyanogenic glycosides, suggesting that cooking

> destroyed the enzyme that metabolizes the cyanogenic glycosides (55). "

>

August 5, 2006

>

> >From: Heidi <heidis@...>

>

> >The following seems to indicate that

> >the goitrogens in cabbage are at least partly

> >inactivated by cooking. Hm. Probably

> >broccoli isn't cooked as long as muffins ...

>

> Soy needs to be fermented.

Not according to the article Heidi referenced

in the post to which you were responding:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george & dbid=47

It is written there that " [...] isoflavones (found

in soy) [...] appear to be heat-sensitive, and cooking

appears to lower the availability of these substances. "

Of course, all the " appears " in that sentence are

hardly convincing, but as you are flatly contradicting

it, you should probably offer some evidence (per the

now infamous " transmutation " thread).

-

August 5, 2006

Ground flax is often used as an egg replacer in vegan baking.

I have yet to try it, however, as I am somewhat wary of the

effect it may have on the unsaturated oils.

-

August 5, 2006

Hi Skipper,

--- Skipper Beers <lsb149@...> wrote:

<snip>

>

> Anyway, eating raw cabbage for a week, in spite of

> thyroid meds, I noticed

> my thyroid swelling and started to get that choking

> feeling. (I think

> because my throat structure is so narrow I'm more

> sensitive to small

> increase in thyroid size.)

<snip>

>

> Skipper

Skipper,

What do you attribute the swelling to?

Please and thank you,

Abbe

__________________________________________________

August 5, 2006

>From: Abbe <abbe_online@...>

>Skipper,

>

>What do you attribute the swelling to?

>

>Please and thank you,

How about this -

http://thestar.com.my/health/story.asp?file=/2005/12/7/health/12779108 & sec=healt\

h

" Cabbage has long been observed to exhibit the goitrogenic effect that

interferes with the functions of the thyroid gland. Ironically,

isothiocyanates, which is are best known for its their protective functions

against cancer, are the goitrogens in cabbage. The isothiocyanates appear to

reduce thyroid function by blocking the thyroid peroxidase enzyme and by

disrupting messages that are sent across the membranes of thyroid cells.

Isothiocyanates are heat-sensitive and even five to 10 minutes of cooking

may deactivate some of the properties. People with thyroid problems such as

enlargement of the thyroid gland on the neck are advised to avoid eating raw

cabbage. "

Skipper

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August 5, 2006

--- Skipper Beers <lsb149@...> wrote:

> >From: Abbe <abbe_online@...>

>

> >Skipper,

> >

> >What do you attribute the swelling to?

> >

> >Please and thank you,

>

> How about this -

>

http://thestar.com.my/health/story.asp?file=/2005/12/7/health/12779108 & sec=healt\

h

> " Cabbage has long been observed to exhibit the

> goitrogenic effect that

> interferes with the functions of the thyroid gland.

> Ironically,

> isothiocyanates, which is are best known for its

> their protective functions

> against cancer, are the goitrogens in cabbage. The

> isothiocyanates appear to

> reduce thyroid function by blocking the thyroid

> peroxidase enzyme and by

> disrupting messages that are sent across the

> membranes of thyroid cells.

>

> Isothiocyanates are heat-sensitive and even five to

> 10 minutes of cooking

> may deactivate some of the properties. People with

> thyroid problems such as

> enlargement of the thyroid gland on the neck are

> advised to avoid eating raw

> cabbage. "

>

> Skipper

>

I am sorry Skipper I was not clear. I seem to have

difficulty getting across what I am trying to

understand at times.

I understood the discussion about cabbage and/or other

foods causing problems but what I was really getting

at is what actually occurs in the system to cause the

swelling.

So, from your response here I take it you believe that

the substances in cabbage, for example, reduce thyroid

function, which causes swelling. In other words a

reduction in thyroid function causes swelling. Is

that it?

Thanks,

Abbe

__________________________________________________

August 5, 2006

I am experimenting with all different kinds of flours and meals,

including flax seed and almond meal. I found it interesting that the

flax seed meal can also be substitutued for fat. Never realized that

there were so many types of flours. Found one called Montina that's a

gluten free whole grain that I think we'll try. Anyone used this before?

Linn

>

> Ground flax is often used as an egg replacer in vegan baking.

> I have yet to try it, however, as I am somewhat wary of the

> effect it may have on the unsaturated oils.

>

> -

>

August 5, 2006

>From: Abbe <abbe_online@...>

>The

> > isothiocyanates appear to

> > reduce thyroid function by blocking the thyroid

> > peroxidase enzyme and by

> > disrupting messages that are sent across the

> > membranes of thyroid cells.

>So, from your response here I take it you believe that

>the substances in cabbage, for example, reduce thyroid

>function, which causes swelling. In other words a

>reduction in thyroid function causes swelling. Is

>that it?

Actually, I never thought that much about it before. I assumed the reason

cabbage and related foods could cause goiter was by interfering with iodine

uptake by the thyroid.

My thyroid doc explained once that any level of TSH the thyroid could not

keep up was likely to cause " goiter " and then thyroid cancer, because when

cells multiply they have more chance of becoming cancerous. Not all goiters

are that obvious when looking, as one of my daughter's boyfriends had

thyroid cancer, his doctor removed his thyroid and was amazed at how large

it was, he said " from ear to ear. " But it wasn't obvious from looking at

him.

So, it would make sense to me that It would interfere with iodine uptake,

that would cause TSH, and when the thyroid couldn't keep up it would cause

cells to multiply.

The source I quoted above claims it blocks the the thyroid peroxidase

enzyme. I'm assuming that this then causes TSH which the thyroid can't keep

up with, so the thyroid starts to grow in an effort to create enough mass in

order to keep up.

Researching further, maybe it does interfere with iodine.

http://www.medicinenet.com/thyroid_peroxidase_test/article.htm

" TPO is found in thyroid follicle cells where it catalyzes the iodination of

T4 and T3 in the biosynthesis of thyroid hormones. "

TPO is thyroid peroxidase. So, this is how it interferes with iodine

usage. One of the Hashimoto's antibodies (TPOb) also affects thyroid

peroxidase.

Some people think Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) has several important health

uses. They claim it can cure diseases, and among other things, it is used in

thyroid production -

http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/266/6/3739

" The thyroid plasma membrane contains a Ca2(+)-regulated NADPH-dependent

H2O2 generating system which provides H2O2 for the thyroid peroxidase-

catalyzed biosynthesis of thyroid hormones. "

So, to summarize my answer, I think -

Cabbage and related foods interfere with iodine usage in the thyroid.

Whenever the thyroid has to struggle to keep up hormone production, it

swells to try to give it the ability to produce more hormone.

Skipper

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August 6, 2006

I am very wary of using too much flax. Flax is good for you but

according to Sally Fallon of the Weston A. Price Foundation

westonaprice.org, she said on her tape from a conference that she uses

only one teaspoon of flax oil in a salad for 6. Flax is very unstable

and should be refrigerated and NEVER heated. Breaks down into free

radicals. Health benefits may be experienced using flax muffins, be

stealthily, the free radicals are doing their dirty work.

Russians used it as a medicine and there used to be men with carts

walking along calling out flax oil for sale and if you wanted some he

ground it up fresh right there; he didn't grind it ahead of time to

become rancid or jostled about.

I belong to the Native Nutrition group which I think is a good adjunt

to this group.

On Aug 5, 2006, at 3:48 AM, wrote:

> Ground flax is often used as an egg replacer in vegan baking.

> I have yet to try it, however, as I am somewhat wary of the

> effect it may have on the unsaturated oils.

>

> -

Parashis

artpages@...

zine:

artpagesonline.com

portfolio:

http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html

August 6, 2006

mlknkh wrote:

> I am experimenting with all different kinds of flours and meals,

> including flax seed and almond meal. I found it interesting that the

> flax seed meal can also be substitutued for fat. Never realized that

> there were so many types of flours. Found one called Montina that's a

> gluten free whole grain that I think we'll try. Anyone used this before?

>

> Linn

>

I have tried it. It was in fact, very good. But very pricy, and the

first ingredient

is actually rice flour IIRC. They add ground up Montina to it too, and

xanthan gum, and the mix works pretty well. But I got about the same

effect by adding ground up whole buckwheat to some rice/potato/tapioca

mix that I had, and whole buckwheat is good stuff too.

I've used a LOT of gluten free whole grains. There is this wonderful

variety ... whoda thunk? People who say " but how can you cook without

wheat! " just don't know what's out there! Actually most of them

taste better than I recall wheat tasting, plus I don't get an upset

stomach after them.

My favorite though, is dosa dough. Basically you add some water to

some rice and beans (any kind of beans, though I think lentils are

the traditional choice), til they swell up (like, a day). Then you run them

through the blender with some water to make a paste. Let that ferment

another day (it will ferment on it's own, but you can add some starter,

either plain yeast, kefir cider, or some dough from the last batch).

You use that dough to make a kind of pancake/tortilla, and add

filling. Or add more flour and yeast or baking soda to

make muffins, pita bread, breadsticks, whatever.

It's very rich, not crumbly, moist, and has amazing flavor. I don't

recall the links offhand, but there are lots of recipes for dosas on

the web. The dough keeps about a week, or longer, in the fridge,

so you can just use it whenever you want.

-- Heidi

August 7, 2006

Heidi,

Sounds good, I'll check it out. I'm very fond of buckwheat

pancakes. I found a website a couple of days ago that had a list of

how to mix flours for different types of foods and about 40 different

flours, very interesting. My experiment is working well so far with

the munchkin, her blood sugars have been very stable, for a couple of

days last week, her BS stayed around 100 or under all day long, with

very little insulin. Let her have pizza night before last and her BS

skyrocketed. She ate something else earlier in the week with wheat

in it and within a couple of hours was complaining of a tummy ache.

It's interesting, I noticed it also seems as though she becomes

insulin resistant with the wheat. I promised her I would go on the

diet with her and I have felt really good, no headaches in the

morning when I wake up. I weigh the same but " feel " smaller. She's

doing well on Armour, iodine and gluten free (well almost there)!!!

Linn

On Aug 7, 2006, at 12:57 AM, Heidi wrote:

> mlknkh wrote:

> > I am experimenting with all different kinds of flours and meals,

> > including flax seed and almond meal. I found it interesting that the

> > flax seed meal can also be substitutued for fat. Never realized that

> > there were so many types of flours. Found one called Montina

> that's a

> > gluten free whole grain that I think we'll try. Anyone used this

> before?

> >

> > Linn

> >

> I have tried it. It was in fact, very good. But very pricy, and the

> first ingredient

> is actually rice flour IIRC. They add ground up Montina to it too, and

> xanthan gum, and the mix works pretty well. But I got about the same

> effect by adding ground up whole buckwheat to some rice/potato/tapioca

> mix that I had, and whole buckwheat is good stuff too.

>

> I've used a LOT of gluten free whole grains. There is this wonderful

> variety ... whoda thunk? People who say " but how can you cook without

> wheat! " just don't know what's out there! Actually most of them

> taste better than I recall wheat tasting, plus I don't get an upset

> stomach after them.

>

> My favorite though, is dosa dough. Basically you add some water to

> some rice and beans (any kind of beans, though I think lentils are

> the traditional choice), til they swell up (like, a day). Then you

> run them

> through the blender with some water to make a paste. Let that ferment

> another day (it will ferment on it's own, but you can add some

> starter,

> either plain yeast, kefir cider, or some dough from the last batch).

>

> You use that dough to make a kind of pancake/tortilla, and add

> filling. Or add more flour and yeast or baking soda to

> make muffins, pita bread, breadsticks, whatever.

> It's very rich, not crumbly, moist, and has amazing flavor. I don't

> recall the links offhand, but there are lots of recipes for dosas on

> the web. The dough keeps about a week, or longer, in the fridge,

> so you can just use it whenever you want.

>

> -- Heidi

>

> .

>

August 7, 2006

Linn wrote:

> Heidi,

> Sounds good, I'll check it out. I'm very fond of buckwheat

> pancakes. I found a website a couple of days ago that had a list of

> how to mix flours for different types of foods and about 40 different

> flours, very interesting. My experiment is working well so far with

> the munchkin, her blood sugars have been very stable, for a couple of

> days last week, her BS stayed around 100 or under all day long, with

> very little insulin. Let her have pizza night before last and her BS

> skyrocketed. She ate something else earlier in the week with wheat

> in it and within a couple of hours was complaining of a tummy ache.

> It's interesting, I noticed it also seems as though she becomes

> insulin resistant with the wheat. I promised her I would go on the

> diet with her and I have felt really good, no headaches in the

> morning when I wake up. I weigh the same but " feel " smaller. She's

> doing well on Armour, iodine and gluten free (well almost there)!!!

>

> Linn

>

Wow, that is great news! Yeah, there is some very odd connection between

blood sugar and wheat. I don't think anyone really knows exactly

what is going on, yet, but an endocrinologist was at Dr. Fine's

conference and he's having great results with his patients by

testing for IgA allergies.

Buckwheat is really nice stuff. It is very *brown*, which

can change things aesthetically, but it has such a good

flavor, and it's full of OPC, which is a potent anti-oxidant.

I've been making these killer crackers with rice flour,

seaweed, seseme. I think I'm going to switch to buckwheat

as a base flour though.

-- Heidi

August 7, 2006

I have been using a lot of coconut flour lately and absolutely love it. It

has less than one carb and is mostly fiber but makes great muffins, etc. I

finally bought the cook book by Dr. Fife and have been trying a lot of the

recipes and so far everything has been fantastic. You can get it on

www.simplycoconut.com or www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com. I cooked some

beef biscuits which is ground beef, onions, eggs, spices with sprinkled

cheese on top. Made for a great dinner and lunch. I used grassfed beef and

raw cheese.

Allyn

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Re: Re: Goitrogens and flax and cooking