Re: conflicting loading test results

[Guest guest]

Zoe are you taking Iodoral now? how much?

Today, I got the following email from Dr. Abraham.

You may recall that I took an iodine loading test after 3+ months on 50 mg Iodoral and got 44% saturation. It was so low, and given that I was following the protocol with lots of magnesium and vitamin C, Flechas referred me to Abraham.

Abraham suggested that I take 100 mg Iodoral for one month and retest, sending a two ounce bottle to both him and Flechas. The result from Abraham on this second test was 46% saturation and from Flechas was 82% saturation.

To resolve the discrepancy, Abraham retested the sample I sent to Flechas and got 77.8%, which is pretty close to 82%. It is still unclear why the sample I originally sent to Abraham tested so low.

Abraham suggests that I can repeat the test again, but at this point I think I'll wait. I'm not sure it would be worth another $80.

I have not yet been in touch with Flechas again. I'll call his office on Monday.

Zoe

(In chemistry, an aliquot is "a portion of a total amount of a solution".)

RE: iodine and Iodoral

Dear Zoe,

Attached is the result of your loading test collected on 9/4/06 and measured on 9/8/06. You excreted 9.6 mg/L iodide. You excreted. 2.4 liters of urine. Therefore, the total iodine content of the 24 hour collection is 9.6 x 2.4 = 23 mg/24 hr. Since you ingested 50 mg, the percent load excreted is 46%. Please let me know what results you obtained from Dr. Flechas.

In order to find out whether this is due to retention by your body or malabsoption, we need to perform a repeat loading test. No urine collection will be needed. Only a serum sample and a saliva sample obtained 2 hours after ingestion of the loading dose. Please let me know if you are interested in pursuing the studies further.

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[Guest guest]

>From: " Zoe & " <ZOEA@...>

>Abraham suggests that I can repeat the test again, but at this point I

>think I'll wait. I'm not sure it would be worth another $80.

I would ask if that could be done for free as it leaves one's confidence a

little shaken as to the validity of the testing. Which they should

understand as a concept.

Also, if the two doctors are in contact with each other on the issue, I

would worry that their discussions would influence the outcome of the

sample.

Hopefully, the science is sound enough for two independent labs to come up

with the same result as each other.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

Gracia, I am presently taking 12.5. I really can't tell much difference whether I take it or I don't. I'm not sure what to do from this point.

I might stay on 12.5 Iodoral -- or I might switch to some kelp.

I don't even know how much I should be taking.

Kessler seems to recommend in the range of 150 - 600 mcg , and he knows a lot about iodine.

The recommendations are just all over the place depending what iodine "school" people subscribe to. So, at this point, I simply don't know whether the orthoiodo school is the best for me or not.

Zoe

Zoe are you taking Iodoral now? how much?

[Guest guest]

I would ask if they would be willing to let you do it free of charge to test their lab accuracy. They may go for it with another sample coming in "blind".

Steph

RE: iodine and Iodoral

Dear Zoe,

Attached is the result of your loading test collected on 9/4/06 and measured on 9/8/06. You excreted 9.6 mg/L iodide. You excreted. 2.4 liters of urine. Therefore, the total iodine content of the 24 hour collection is 9.6 x 2.4 = 23 mg/24 hr. Since you ingested 50 mg, the percent load excreted is 46%. Please let me know what results you obtained from Dr. Flechas.

In order to find out whether this is due to retention by your body or malabsoption, we need to perform a repeat loading test. No urine collection will be needed. Only a serum sample and a saliva sample obtained 2 hours after ingestion of the loading dose. Please let me know if you are interested in pursuing the studies further.

[Guest guest]

Zoe,

I can't recall - did you notice any changes overall from iodine? Any

problems get better, worse, new problems? Do you think overall it

has helped you? Or nothing noticeable?

Take care,

Sharon

> Gracia, I am presently taking 12.5. I really can't tell much

difference whether I take it or I don't. I'm not sure what to do

from this point.

>

> I might stay on 12.5 Iodoral -- or I might switch to some kelp.

>

> I don't even know how much I should be taking.

>

> Kessler seems to recommend in the range of 150 - 600 mcg , and he

knows a lot about iodine.

>

> The recommendations are just all over the place depending what

iodine " school " people subscribe to. So, at this point, I simply

don't know whether the orthoiodo school is the best for me or not.

[Guest guest]

I agree totally. I might consider sending it under a different name. That way they can't skew the results.

Steph

RE: conflicting loading test results

>From: "Zoe & " <ZOEAprodigy (DOT) net>>Abraham suggests that I can repeat the test again, but at this point I >think I'll wait. I'm not sure it would be worth another $80.I would ask if that could be done for free as it leaves one's confidence a little shaken as to the validity of the testing. Which they should understand as a concept.Also, if the two doctors are in contact with each other on the issue, I would worry that their discussions would influence the outcome of the sample.Hopefully, the science is sound enough for two independent labs to come up with the same result as each other.Skipper__________________________________________________________Add a contact to Windows Live Messenger for a chance to win a free trip! http://www.imagine-windowslive.com/minisites//default.aspx?locale=en-us & hmtagline

[Guest guest]

>I agree totally. I might consider sending it under a different

>name. That way they can't skew the results.

I'm a bit confused -- does anyone have *any* reason to think these

docs would conspire to falsify test results? Remember -- the lab

techs who are doing the actual testing are probably not paid nearly

as much as any doctor, have no " allegiance " to any patient, and could

very very easily have made a mistake loading the sample into the

testing gear; or the power could have dipped or gone off during the

testing cycle, or it could just have misread the sample...

I realize many of you have really good reason(s) to mistrust and

think ill of medical personnel -- but these two docs are clearly

(from all I've read) tremendous resources for people needing thyroid

help. As the saying goes: " never attribute to malice what can be

explained away by incompetence! "

Elenor

[Guest guest]

I am sarcastic yes because I have a long bad history with Dr's almost killing me. I guess I want more for things to be anonymous. We have no reason to believe that there is any misconduct it is just in my eyes that there is so much we do not know that the more "control" factors the better. I really don't think the Dr's talk that much. Dr. Brownstein doesn't talk often with Dr. Flechas even though they share a common goal. It all seems to weird that there was such a big discrepancy with Zoe's tests. I wonder what happened???

Steph

Re: conflicting loading test results

>I agree totally. I might consider sending it under a different >name. That way they can't skew the results.I'm a bit confused -- does anyone have *any* reason to think these docs would conspire to falsify test results? Remember -- the lab techs who are doing the actual testing are probably not paid nearly as much as any doctor, have no "allegiance" to any patient, and could very very easily have made a mistake loading the sample into the testing gear; or the power could have dipped or gone off during the testing cycle, or it could just have misread the sample...I realize many of you have really good reason(s) to mistrust and think ill of medical personnel -- but these two docs are clearly (from all I've read) tremendous resources for people needing thyroid help. As the saying goes: "never attribute to malice what can be explained away by incompetence!"Elenor

[Guest guest]

Zoe - Did Abraham retest his own sample that came in at 46%

originally? Your post said he re-tested Flechas' sample. Without re-

testing the errant one, how can one know if perhaps the 46% was a

fluke - test not conducted properly, sample mishandled, etc.

If I were you, I would ask both of them if they would conduct a re-

test for you for free. It is in both of their best interests to

resolve this as you moderate this Iodine group & many members are

now hesitant to take the test because of the discrepancies. They are

losing way more than what it will cost them to comp your test.

It never hurts to ask. It's in everyone's best interest to sleuth

this out.

> Abraham suggests that I can repeat the test again, but at this

point I think I'll wait. I'm not sure it would be worth another $80.

> I have not yet been in touch with Flechas again. I'll call his

office on Monday.

>

> Zoe

[Guest guest]

Good point! I caught that when I read but then forgot when I responded. You should point that out that it could have been Abraham's sample that was the issue and not Flechas or vs versa. (if we read that correctly).

Steph

Re: conflicting loading test results

Zoe - Did Abraham retest his own sample that came in at 46% originally? Your post said he re-tested Flechas' sample. Without re-testing the errant one, how can one know if perhaps the 46% was a fluke - test not conducted properly, sample mishandled, etc.If I were you, I would ask both of them if they would conduct a re-test for you for free. It is in both of their best interests to resolve this as you moderate this Iodine group & many members are now hesitant to take the test because of the discrepancies. They are losing way more than what it will cost them to comp your test. It never hurts to ask. It's in everyone's best interest to sleuth this out. ._,_.___

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..

[Guest guest]

this is amazing to me, since iodine has a big effect on me. I found 50mg at one time to be too much, 25mg 2X a day to be just right, but I still need it. I will try to do the test when I can.

Gracia

Sharon, initially (first couple weeks) I noticed some positive changes that might have been due to the iodine. Then, my system changed back to normal. On the 100 mg, I had mild diarrhea that I know was from the iodine. Other than that, I have not noticed clear consequences. It might have helped in some way, but it is not clear to me at this point.

I suspect iodine is quite good for detoxing, and that in itself would be a good reason for using it. I also think Drum may be correct that we are dealing with background levels of RAI due to nuclear plants, and iodine should be good for that. So, I still think it is valuable. I'm just not sure how best to use it myself.

I did not have breast problems, which would be the clearest indicator. I deal with hypothyroid/adrenal issues -- and I still don't have that working perfectly although I have experimented with a lot of things..

Zoe

----- Original Message -----

From: sharflin I can't recall - did you notice any changes overall from iodine? Any problems get better, worse, new problems? Do you think overall it has helped you? Or nothing noticeable? Take care,Sharon

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[Guest guest]

There were two samples, or "aliquots". The first sample was sent to Flechas, who measured 82%. That same sample was later also tested by Abraham, who measured 77.8%. To me, these results show essentially the same results. So, I assume I was at about 80% saturation at that time.

The second aliquot was sent to Abraham, who measured 46%. It has not yet been cross-checked by Flechas. I have another phone consult scheduled with Flechas next Thursday and will hopefully learn more then.

As far as I am concerned, I am willing to trust the sample -- and the testing -- I originally sent to Flechas. In fact, having the test cross-checked by Abraham's lab increases my confidence that the FFP labs Iodine Test is accurate. I assume that the 80% is accurate.

As to why the second aliquot measured different, I don't know. My best guess is that some technician sent me the wrong sample bottle for collecting the sample, with the wrong additive. Or perhaps the lab made some mistake. But the FFP lab is doing the regular Iodine Loading Tests (not Abraham's research lab), so I don't think the reliability of the FFP test has been called into question at all.

Whether 90% saturation is necessary is another question.

Zoe

----- Original Message -----

From: jtb14789

Zoe - Did Abraham retest his own sample that came in at 46% originally? Your post said he re-tested Flechas' sample. Without re-testing the errant one, how can one know if perhaps the 46% was a fluke - test not conducted properly, sample mishandled, etc.

[Guest guest]

Well,

Saturation and sufficiency do not mean the same thing

to me. Are these terms being interchanged? If they

are, exactly what are we talking about? A distinction

needs to be made between the meaning of these two

terms. At least for me.

Abbe

--- <kennio@...> wrote:

> Well, according to the article it is possible and

> important. In fact, the word

> difficult or defect... as in symporter, does not

> appear in the article.

>

> " To achieve sufficiency within three months, most

> subjects required 3-4

> tablets/day (37.5-50 mg). "

>

> EVERY random test subject in the article had no

> problem reaching sufficiency.

> We have exactly the opposite problem here.

>

> http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-06/IOD_06.htm

>

> --- Abbe <abbe_online@...> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Maybe saturation is not possible or important.

> >

> >

> > Abbe

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

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[Guest guest]

Elenor, I love your quote: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained away by incompetence!"

The specific examples you give of possible lab errors makes me think you may have a lab background. Do you?

Your points are very well taken.

Zoe

----- Original Message -----

From: Elenor

>I agree totally. I might consider sending it under a different >name. That way they can't skew the results.I'm a bit confused -- does anyone have *any* reason to think these docs would conspire to falsify test results? Remember -- the lab techs who are doing the actual testing are probably not paid nearly as much as any doctor, have no "allegiance" to any patient, and could very very easily have made a mistake loading the sample into the testing gear; or the power could have dipped or gone off during the testing cycle, or it could just have misread the sample...I realize many of you have really good reason(s) to mistrust and think ill of medical personnel -- but these two docs are clearly (from all I've read) tremendous resources for people needing thyroid help. As the saying goes: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained away by incompetence!"Elenor

[Guest guest]

>From: <kennio@...>

>The amount of people here who have taken it equal one of his test groups as

>described in his Orthoiodosupplementation article. Apparently ALL of his

>subject had reached sufficiency and in our case exactly the opposite. I

>believe I am the only one from Michigan in the group. My test results were

>LOWER for sufficiency the second time I took it, 3 months later.

iodine/database?method=reportRows & tbl=11

I only see 3 before and after tests. is from Michigan, but

doesn't have a before test, only comment that testing of iodine level was

done and they were undetectable. If they were undetectable then the current

66 percent saturation seems good.

If Zoe's new test is correct, her saturation increased from 48 to 80, which

sounds like a nice increase. (The database however shows it at 46 percent.)

But, why one of the labs came back at 46 is rather strange and leaves me

wondering.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Zoe,

I am really trying to get a bigger understanding of what happens

when people ortho-supplement iodine. So far I've noticed three

groups: 1) people who have noticed a generalized, possibly non-

specific, improvement. Perhaps Gracia, Abbe and Skipper would fit

into this category as examples. (I certainly don't mean to speak for

anyone - please pardon me and correct me if you wish!) 2) women who

have had clear hormonal/breast/ovary improvement such as me and

perhaps . And 3) people who didn't notice a distinct

change. From what you are saying maybe you fall into this group,

Zoe?

Just initially thinking, it seems like 1) iodine can help hormonal

problems but I'm not clear if it is mainly those with estrogen

dominance or not? It definitely helped my estrogen dominance.

However, I recall some women saying that it lowered their estrogen

too much. I'm also very surprised about 's recent posting

regarding her ovarian cyst - I really would have guessed the iodine

would have banished them forever. 2) I am curious about those who

have had a general improvement that doesn't seem to be tied to

anything in particular, with the possible exception of adrenal

improvement. I recall someone said that the adrenal glands

concentrate iodine but we don't know what they do with it. It would

be very exciting if iodine had a positive effect on adrenals, but it

seems too soon to speculate. And there certainly seem to be many

with adrenal issues that haven't mentioned any improvement. 3) And

the third group I am curious about too - have they really benefited?

Wouldn't they feel it if they had?

I wonder how many of us have aggravated autoimmune thyroid problems

with iodine supplementation but don't know it yet? Could that

explain some of the instances of people who don't feel like they've

benefited, and also some of those that struggled in tolerating the

high doses? That could also include some people who feel better on

iodine because it causes hyperthyroid activity. That turned out to

be the case for me - I struggled to tolerate iodine for months but

then I felt great while hyperthyroid for months, until eventually I

felt terrible. And if I had been on Cortef at the time, I bet I

would lasted even longer feeling hyperT great. (Yes, I know not

everyone hyperT feels great...) Given the recent research posting of

autoimmune hyperthyroid levels increasing as iodine consumption

increased, I have to wonder how many of us are in that category.

Given generations of iodine deficiency which as I recall has a

progressively damaging effect on thyroids, perhaps it is really

catching up with us with this autoimmune epidemic. As much as I am

happiest when not visiting anyone with an MD after their name, I am

becoming increasingly uneasy with the idea of self-treatment with

iodine. I think thyroid labs including antibody tests are really

important. I think all the iodine docs say that it is rare to have

this type of reaction, but I'm not buying it. If I believed

everything they've written, I would believe there are virtually no

side effects from iodine, when from following this group I know

virtually everyone experiences some adverse effects at least

temporarily.

Whew. If you have gotten this far, thanks for listening!

Sharon

> Sharon, initially (first couple weeks) I noticed some positive

changes that might have been due to the iodine. Then, my system

changed back to normal. On the 100 mg, I had mild diarrhea that I

know was from the iodine. Other than that, I have not noticed clear

consequences. It might have helped in some way, but it is not clear

to me at this point.

>

> I suspect iodine is quite good for detoxing, and that in itself

would be a good reason for using it. I also think Drum may be

correct that we are dealing with background levels of RAI due to

nuclear plants, and iodine should be good for that. So, I still

think it is valuable. I'm just not sure how best to use it myself.

>

> I did not have breast problems, which would be the clearest

indicator. I deal with hypothyroid/adrenal issues -- and I still

don't have that working perfectly although I have experimented with

a lot of things..

[Guest guest]

> " " kennio@... Kennio wrote:

>

>The amount of people here who have taken it equal one of his test groups as

>described in his Orthoiodosupplementation article. Apparently ALL of his

>subject had reached sufficiency and in our case exactly the opposite. I

>believe I am the only one from Michigan in the group. My test results were

>LOWER for sufficiency the second time I took it, 3 months later.

>

>Someone asked why we would be suspicious of the urinalysis. This is why.

That would be me who asked... Is there some way to gather up all the

results we have here; to, in essence, create our OWN test group of

people who've done the testing? Since there does seem to be a full

cohort of tested people, with matching or non-matching results, I

expect either/both docs would like to see such a gathering of

data. It would be a really good check on their results.

Just a thought.

Elenor

[Guest guest]

As I said 6 people dosing for 3 or more months here at 50 to 100mg and no one

at 90% as compared to 6 people described in article all seemingly at or near

90% saturation in 3 months with only 50mg.

--- Skipper Beers <lsb149@...> wrote:

> >From: <kennio@...>

>

> >The amount of people here who have taken it equal one of his test groups as

> >described in his Orthoiodosupplementation article. Apparently ALL of his

> >subject had reached sufficiency and in our case exactly the opposite. I

> >believe I am the only one from Michigan in the group. My test results were

> >LOWER for sufficiency the second time I took it, 3 months later.

>

> iodine/database?method=reportRows & tbl=11

>

> I only see 3 before and after tests. is from Michigan, but

> doesn't have a before test, only comment that testing of iodine level was

> done and they were undetectable. If they were undetectable then the current

> 66 percent saturation seems good.

>

> If Zoe's new test is correct, her saturation increased from 48 to 80, which

> sounds like a nice increase. (The database however shows it at 46 percent.)

> But, why one of the labs came back at 46 is rather strange and leaves me

> wondering.

>

> Skipper

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from

> Microsoft Office Live

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[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon,

What a beautifully thought out message! Thank you for putting all that into words.

Not sure which group I fall into--when I first started iodine (on 2 difft occasions) I had wonderful experiences which eventually turned into pretty bad and difficult experiences. As a caveat, I have to say that I have a history of hyperthyroidism and a diagnosis of Graves. I think are writing about Hashi's hyper, am I right?

In several weeks, I am having an ultrasound of the thyroid done to compare to several previous studies, the last one done 6 months ago, before I began supplementing with Armour and Iodine. I will certainly let you know the results. Previously I had (still have?) goiter with nodules.

Currently, I am experimenting with Cortef to see if I can raise my armour dose past 30 mgs. and I am averaging 12 mgs. of Iosol.

Again, thanks for your thoughtful and challenging letter.

Dahlia

*****************************************************************************

I am really trying to get a bigger understanding of what happens when people ortho-supplement iodine. So far I've noticed three groups: 1) people who have noticed a generalized, possibly non-specific, improvement. Perhaps Gracia, Abbe and Skipper would fit into this category as examples. (I certainly don't mean to speak for anyone - please pardon me and correct me if you wish!) 2) women who have had clear hormonal/breast/ovary improvement such as me and perhaps . And 3) people who didn't notice a distinct change. From what you are saying maybe you fall into this group, Zoe? Just initially thinking, it seems like 1) iodine can help hormonal problems but I'm not clear if it is mainly those with estrogen dominance or not? It definitely helped my estrogen dominance. However, I recall some women saying that it lowered their estrogen too much. I'm also very surprised about 's recent posting regarding her ovarian cyst - I really would have guessed the iodine would have banished them forever. 2) I am curious about those who have had a general improvement that doesn't seem to be tied to anything in particular, with the possible exception of adrenal improvement. I recall someone said that the adrenal glands concentrate iodine but we don't know what they do with it. It would be very exciting if iodine had a positive effect on adrenals, but it seems too soon to speculate. And there certainly seem to be many with adrenal issues that haven't mentioned any improvement. 3) And the third group I am curious about too - have they really benefited? Wouldn't they feel it if they had? I wonder how many of us have aggravated autoimmune thyroid problems with iodine supplementation but don't know it yet? Could that explain some of the instances of people who don't feel like they've benefited, and also some of those that struggled in tolerating the high doses? That could also include some people who feel better on iodine because it causes hyperthyroid activity. That turned out to be the case for me - I struggled to tolerate iodine for months but then I felt great while hyperthyroid for months, until eventually I felt terrible. And if I had been on Cortef at the time, I bet I would lasted even longer feeling hyperT great. (Yes, I know not everyone hyperT feels great...) Given the recent research posting of autoimmune hyperthyroid levels increasing as iodine consumption increased, I have to wonder how many of us are in that category. Given generations of iodine deficiency which as I recall has a progressively damaging effect on thyroids, perhaps it is really catching up with us with this autoimmune epidemic. As much as I am happiest when not visiting anyone with an MD after their name, I am becoming increasingly uneasy with the idea of self-treatment with iodine. I think thyroid labs including antibody tests are really important. I think all the iodine docs say that it is rare to have this type of reaction, but I'm not buying it. If I believed everything they've written, I would believe there are virtually no side effects from iodine, when from following this group I know virtually everyone experiences some adverse effects at least temporarily. Whew. If you have gotten this far, thanks for listening! Sharon

[Guest guest]

Sharon, I too would like to thank you for your beautiful email. Very thoughtful and thought-provoking. Zoe

----- Original Message -----

From: srapp785@...

Hi Sharon,

What a beautifully thought out message! Thank you for putting all that into words.

Again, thanks for your thoughtful and challenging letter.

Dahlia

*****************************************************************************

I am really trying to get a bigger understanding of what happens when people ortho-supplement iodine. So far I've noticed three groups: 1) people who have noticed a generalized, possibly non-specific, improvement. Perhaps Gracia, Abbe and Skipper would fit into this category as examples. (I certainly don't mean to speak for anyone - please pardon me and correct me if you wish!) 2) women who have had clear hormonal/breast/ovary improvement such as me and perhaps . And 3) people who didn't notice a distinct change.