Re: Newbie-Unusual symptoms w/Armour-Iodine deficient or not

[Guest guest]

hi gladioli

why not take enough cortef--20mg per day as Jefferies recommends? then add DHEA, then you can take enough Armour. You will need lots more than 45mg. I highly recommend Iodoral.

Gracia

HI,I am new to this group. Have read database, links, and files and been following postings and not yet seen anything similar regarding my particular experience with armour. I would appreciate input and suggestions regarding the following:I have a 26 year history of severe/chronic illness.Severe MCS, thallium/mercury/arsenic toxicity (using ALA for chelation), IBS, fibrocystic breasts, interstitial cystitis, meniere's, spontaneous bruising, transient systemic parasthesias, and the list goes on.I am hypothyroid and have adrenal insufficiency.Am on hydrocortisone (15mg/day) I am on armour 3/4 grains (45mg) per day. When I increase armour I end up with systemic hives. When I take armour it makes me feel sleepy. That's just not normal. I have yet to see improvement in energy, but if I try to discontinue armour I have crying jags, am witchy, and feel like I want to hide. I've tried selenium and am on 37mcg, but if I go beyond that I get palpitations and feel as if I am being strangled. I am aware that selenium is a cofactor in the enzyme that helps convert T4 to T3.After spending time aquainting myself with the archives on this list, I am wondering if iodine deficiency might be one of many issues. I always thought I was allergic to iodine, but recently I started taking 70mcg of iodide topically (water base) and slowly worked my way up to 420mcg orally. With severe multiple chemical sensitivities, I am sensitive to the smallest change in diet, supplements, chelation protocol, etc. This would make it difficult to do a iodine loading test and doing a patch test with iodine tincture which contains ethanol is questionable as well. I am not sure what to do at this point regarding my "iodine sufficiency" quandry. I would appreciate any suggestions.Thanks,Gladioli

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[Guest guest]

Where does Mc Jefferies recommend this? In " Safe Uses of Crotisol " he

states that most of his patients do best on 20 or 25 mg per day. A few need

more but some do well on as little as 10 mg per day. Has he changed that

somewhere?

Irene

At 09:15 PM 8/20/2006, you wrote:

>why not take enough cortef--20mg per day as Jefferies recommends? then

>add DHEA, then you can take enough Armour. You will need lots more than

>45mg. I highly recommend Iodoral.

>Gracia

[Guest guest]

yes right, that's what he recommends, 20-30mg/day. With the symptoms she descibed I sure wouldn't be taking 15mg/day. It's a big problem I see on the lists, taking too little cortef and Armour too.

I went to an ND whom I like but he was so conservative. He told me to take the least cortef youcan get away with and recommended 5mg 3X a day. After a week on this I gave up on it---thought cortef is not for me. A whole year later I tried again on 5mg 4X a day et voila, it worked like a charm. I also think if I were taking low dose iodine I wouldn't be feeling too good either.

Gracia

Where does Mc Jefferies recommend this? In "Safe Uses of Crotisol" he states that most of his patients do best on 20 or 25 mg per day. A few need more but some do well on as little as 10 mg per day. Has he changed that somewhere?IreneAt 09:15 PM 8/20/2006, you wrote:>why not take enough cortef--20mg per day as Jefferies recommends? then >add DHEA, then you can take enough Armour. You will need lots more than >45mg. I highly recommend Iodoral.>Gracia

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[Guest guest]

>From: " Gracia " <circe@...>

> yes right, that's what he recommends, 20-30mg/day. With the symptoms

>she descibed I sure wouldn't be taking 15mg/day. It's a big problem I see

>on the lists, taking too little cortef and Armour too.

> I went to an ND whom I like but he was so conservative. He told me to

>take the least cortef youcan get away with and recommended 5mg 3X a day.

>After a week on this I gave up on it---thought cortef is not for me. A

>whole year later I tried again on 5mg 4X a day et voila, it worked like a

>charm. I also think if I were taking low dose iodine I wouldn't be

>feeling too good either.

That's right, you should take the least cortef that resolves symptoms.

The problem with that is if you start at 15 mg, how do you know it doesn't

take 20 to resolve the symptoms?

The lower the dose, the least likely to suppress the HPA axis, but you do

need enough to resolve the symptoms.

I can point to specific symptoms that went away when I started

hydrocortisone.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

The way you do it according to the book is you start on the low dose and

titrate up based on symptoms. You do have to play with it a bit to

determine exactly the right dose. But he does not recommend a flat 20 mg

for everyone. I would have to look it up but I think he recommended

starting at 10 mg and working up but it might have been 15mg. I do

remember that some of his patients only took 10mg per day.

Irene

At 07:54 AM 8/21/2006, you wrote:

>That's right, you should take the least cortef that resolves symptoms.

>

>The problem with that is if you start at 15 mg, how do you know it doesn't

>take 20 to resolve the symptoms?

>

>The lower the dose, the least likely to suppress the HPA axis, but you do

>need enough to resolve the symptoms.

>

>I can point to specific symptoms that went away when I started

>hydrocortisone.

[Guest guest]

Hi Gladioli,

Your situation is really complicated, but I wanted to offer a few

thoughts.

> am being strangled. I am aware that selenium is a cofactor in the

> enzyme that helps convert T4 to T3.

Had you thought about eating brazil nuts? They have a large amount

of selenium, and bodies in general seem to process food sources of

nutrients better than supplements. Someone on this list previously

wrote that she eats 5 or so every day and her lab tests showed she

was in the far upper range on selenium.

> After spending time aquainting myself with the archives on this

> list, I am wondering if iodine deficiency might be one of many

> issues.

I would think so too. Really, most people are and you listed some

problems strongly associated with it.

> I always thought I was allergic to iodine, but recently I

> started taking 70mcg of iodide topically (water base) and slowly

> worked my way up to 420mcg orally.

That's great! You know that probably more is needed but if you have

to start small and slow, that's just how it is, no sense fighting

it. I also started out smaller and slower than most on the list. But

after 7 months I'm now at 40mg. The first months were the hardest

but just be patient and increase as you can without causing major

side-effects. It is possible that your reaction is due to the

detoxing effects of iodine.

> This would make it difficult to do a iodine loading test and doing

a

> patch test with iodine tincture which contains ethanol is

> questionable as well.

I felt the same way in the first few months and never did either.

I'm still not sure I could tolerate the loading test since I've had

bad luck with Iodoral. In the beginning, I painted on tincture of

iodine in very small amounts - even painting a little too much would

give me problems. But now I can paint to my hearts content, so

things can change for you too.

> I am not sure what to do at this point

> regarding my " iodine sufficiency " quandry. I would appreciate any

> suggestions.

I would only say to keep on with what you are doing, going at your

own pace. While some people can jump in at high doses, other's just

don't seem to be able to, in which case slow and steady progress is

still good. Just because it takes longer doesn't mean it won't

happen. I would think about Gracia's advise regarding upping your

Cortef - in the first few months I found the iodine to be a bit hard

on my adrenals - if I was taking Cortef I think it would have

helped.

Best wishes,

Sharon

[Guest guest]

I am just wondering where you got that. Since I remember in the book he

recommends starting at a lower dose and titrating up.

Has he changed the recommendations since he wrote the book.

Irene

At 07:40 AM 8/21/2006, you wrote:

>yes right, that's what he recommends, 20-30mg/day. With the symptoms she

>descibed I sure wouldn't be taking 15mg/day

[Guest guest]

>From: Irene.M@...

>The way you do it according to the book is you start on the low dose and

>titrate up based on symptoms. You do have to play with it a bit to

>determine exactly the right dose. But he does not recommend a flat 20 mg

>for everyone. I would have to look it up but I think he recommended

>starting at 10 mg and working up but it might have been 15mg. I do

>remember that some of his patients only took 10mg per day.

>Irene

Thyroid / adrenal symptoms are similar.

How do you know if you stop at 10 mg, that all your symptoms caused by

adrenal insufficiency have resolved?

You may have symptoms that you don't suspect are from low adrenal function.

I had chest pain (over 10 years), " rheumatoid hip pain (about 2 years), and

frequent urination (over 10 years) that went away with hydrocortisone.

When I see those commercials about drugs for " overactive bladder " , I wonder

if it's really caused by this -

http://www.cushings-help.com/adrenal_glands.htm

" Corticosteroid deficiency can lead to many problems. For example, when

corticosteroids are lacking, the body excretes large amounts of sodium and

retains potassium, leading to low levels of sodium and high levels of

potassium in the blood. The kidneys aren't able to concentrate urine, so

when a person with a corticosteroiddeficiency drinks too much water or loses

too much sodium, the blood level of sodium falls. Inability to concentrate

urine ultimately causes the person to urinate excessively and become

dehydrated. Severe dehydration and a low sodium level reduce blood volume

and can culminate in shock. "

If so, there's obviously a lot of people with the low adrenal problem, and

once again they medicate the symptom, and don't fix the root.

How many of the doctors know about the symptoms I mentioned? I suspect

very, very few.

That's why starting at 20 and going down to find when you don't feel as well

is probably the better plan.

Of course, complicating that is that different levels suppress the HPA axis

of different people, so some might have their HPA suppressed at 20 mg and

others won't.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

Well that is what I mean by play with it. You try 15 mg as see if there is

any change. If not you may go back to 10 mg. If you have other things going

on those must be addressed as well. In the book the people he leaves at

10mg are not experiencing a lot of symptoms. I am hesitant to go into a lot

of detail because it has been a while since I read the book and I don't

want to misquote.

Have you read " Safe Uses of Cortisol " ? If not I recommend it. It is

definitely worth a read. My doctor wants her patients to read it if they

are going to be on the therapy. That way you can know exactly what he

reacommends. Now if there is information that he has put out since the book

was published I don't have that. I have the 1996 edition of the book.

Irene

At 08:42 AM 8/21/2006, you wrote:

>How do you know if you stop at 10 mg, that all your symptoms caused by

>adrenal insufficiency have resolved?

[Guest guest]

I have never heard of a really sick person doing well on 10mg cortisol. I am not a fan of wasting time and suffering b/c I've BTDT.

gracia

Well that is what I mean by play with it. You try 15 mg as see if there is any change. If not you may go back to 10 mg. If you have other things going on those must be addressed as well. In the book the people he leaves at 10mg are not experiencing a lot of symptoms. I am hesitant to go into a lot of detail because it has been a while since I read the book and I don't want to misquote.Have you read "Safe Uses of Cortisol" ? If not I recommend it. It is definitely worth a read. My doctor wants her patients to read it if they are going to be on the therapy. That way you can know exactly what he reacommends. Now if there is information that he has put out since the book was published I don't have that. I have the 1996 edition of the book.IreneAt 08:42 AM 8/21/2006, you wrote:>How do you know if you stop at 10 mg, that all your symptoms caused by>adrenal insufficiency have resolved?

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[Guest guest]

>From: Irene.M@...

>Well that is what I mean by play with it. You try 15 mg as see if there is

>any change. If not you may go back to 10 mg. If you have other things going

>on those must be addressed as well. In the book the people he leaves at

>10mg are not experiencing a lot of symptoms. I am hesitant to go into a lot

>of detail because it has been a while since I read the book and I don't

>want to misquote.

>Have you read " Safe Uses of Cortisol " ? If not I recommend it. It is

>definitely worth a read. My doctor wants her patients to read it if they

>are going to be on the therapy. That way you can know exactly what he

>reacommends. Now if there is information that he has put out since the book

>was published I don't have that. I have the 1996 edition of the book.

It's complicated. How long do you stay at 15 mg before you decide it wasn't

helpful? If you are at 15 mg, and you find you can breathe better, are you

going to attribute that to thyroid or adrenal treatment as it could be

either. Of course, if you're not on thyroid treatment it's simpler.

If you're being treated for both thyroid and adrenals, if something gets

better it can be due to either treatment. Or the passage of time. Because

thyroid helps the adrenals work better and cortisol makes the thyroid work

better (the proper amount that is, not too little or too much.)

So, to me it makes more sense to start at the upward limit that probably

won't suppress the HPA axis, because if things go away you'll know it's

because of the hydrocortisone, and you can back off and see it that

particular symptom comes back.

If 20 mg does not suppress the HPA axis (and that was supposed to be 1/2 of

normal adrenal production for the day), then it's likely that will be the

best dose to be on.

But it is complicated, and whether what I said or true is not depends on a

lot of personal judgment.

After all, there are varying degrees of adrenal insufficiency. If I stop

taking my HC, tomorrow I probably won't even notice. Someone with true

's may actually collapse. And in 6 or 7 days I don't feel nearly as

well.

I guess that's part of how I know my HPA axis isn't suppressed, because I

don't collapse like someone with 's. So, if I don't take my HC, my

adrenals are still working, just at the same poor level they did before I

starting taking HC.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

That is just fine, I am just trying to find out the source of your

information since it is different from my reading of McJefferies

book.

Irene

At 10:18 AM 8/21/2006, you wrote:

I have never heard of a really sick person doing well on 10mg

cortisol. I am not a fan of wasting time and suffering b/c I've

BTDT.

gracia

[Guest guest]

You know, I am not a physician. I really can't determine the best way for

anyone. I am just relaying what comes out of McJeffries book. If you feel

your approach is better than what he recommends then that is fine by me.

I was just trying to clarify what seems to be varying statements about

what his approach actually is.

Irene

At 12:08 PM 8/21/2006, you wrote:

>From:

Irene.M@...

>Well that is what I mean by play with it. You try 15 mg as see if

there is

>any change. If not you may go back to 10 mg. If you have other things

going

>on those must be addressed as well. In the book the people he leaves

at

>10mg are not experiencing a lot of symptoms. I am hesitant to go into

a lot

>of detail because it has been a while since I read the book and I

don't

>want to misquote.

>Have you read " Safe Uses of Cortisol " ? If not I recommend

it. It is

>definitely worth a read. My doctor wants her patients to read it if

they

>are going to be on the therapy. That way you can know exactly what

he

>reacommends. Now if there is information that he has put out since

the book

>was published I don't have that. I have the 1996 edition of the

book.

It's complicated. How long do you stay at 15 mg before you decide it

wasn't

helpful? If you are at 15 mg, and you find you can breathe better, are

you

going to attribute that to thyroid or adrenal treatment as it could be

either. Of course, if you're not on thyroid treatment it's

simpler.

If you're being treated for both thyroid and adrenals, if something gets

better it can be due to either treatment. Or the passage of time. Because

thyroid helps the adrenals work better and cortisol makes the thyroid

work

better (the proper amount that is, not too little or too much.)

So, to me it makes more sense to start at the upward limit that probably

won't suppress the HPA axis, because if things go away you'll know it's

because of the hydrocortisone, and you can back off and see it that

particular symptom comes back.

If 20 mg does not suppress the HPA axis (and that was supposed to be 1/2

of

normal adrenal production for the day), then it's likely that will be the

best dose to be on.

But it is complicated, and whether what I said or true is not depends on

a

lot of personal judgment.

After all, there are varying degrees of adrenal insufficiency. If I stop

taking my HC, tomorrow I probably won't even notice. Someone with true

's may actually collapse. And in 6 or 7 days I don't feel nearly

as

well.

I guess that's part of how I know my HPA axis isn't suppressed, because I

don't collapse like someone with 's. So, if I don't take my HC, my

adrenals are still working, just at the same poor level they did before I

starting taking HC.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone for your input regarding Iodine/Armour/HC/etc. I am

excited about adding the iodine because this is something I've never

tried in all of 26 years of severe illness. I am considering

increasing my daily dose of HC and will talk to my doc next week.

I've watched y'all debate about dosing for HC and I will share what

I was told: the earlier in the day you take HC, the less suppressive

it is to the adrenals. I take 10mg as soon as I get up or 8am and

the next dose 4 hours later or at 12noon.(this is more along the

lines of the natural production rhythm of the body) If I was to add

another 5mg, it would more than likely be at 2pm otherwise I would

be awake all night. It was also suggested that rather than increase

HC, I might consider taking pregnenolone, which helps to relieve

stress on the adrenals. I believe I will save the increase in

Armour for last considering everything that's been said here as well

as what I've read about addressing adrenals before thyroid. Like

everything else, experimentation is necessary to find what is right

for me personally.

Thanks again to everyone for their input.

Gladioli

>

>

> >How do you know if you stop at 10 mg, that all your symptoms

caused by

> >adrenal insufficiency have resolved?

>

[Guest guest]

>From: " gladioli66 " <gladioli66@...>

>I take 10mg as soon as I get up or 8am

Jeffries suggested taking 5 mg 4 times daily. 3 times with meals and once

before bed, which he said would help you get up the next day.

Morning is when cortisol is highest. I do wonder if you take a larger dose

at that time, if it doesn't shut down production of your own adrenals when

they should be at their highest production point.

I'm just wondering about that, I'm not saying it's true. Maybe that was

part of the reason he wanted the HC to be spaced out.

HC isn't like an energy pill, so taking it before bed might not have any ill

effects on you. Hc does actually help your system calm down a bit from

adrenaline, and will slow down your heart rate. Someone with 's

explained to me that if her heart rate was escalated, she would take some

HC, and if it was because of her adrenal insufficiency, her heart rate would

go down within a half hour or so.

Cortisol is supposed to help you keep " vigilant " , which I assume means

awake, but Jeffries did recommend the last dose before bed, and I don't have

any problems sleeping that way.

Just some thoughts. I'm not saying they're the definite way to go for you.

Skipper

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ltagline

[Guest guest]

As I understand it, a person with 's has adrenals which are

incapable of puttting out the necessary hormones because they are

diseased or exhausted. I have secondary adrenal insufficiency. My

adrenals are fine, although stressed from the heavy metals, but the

my HPA is intoxicated with heavy metals, so the hypothalamus and

pituitary no longer puts out the appropriate signals, so the

adrenals do not respond well and sufficiently to even the stresses

of activities of daily living, so my HC dosing should be that which

follows the normal rhythm of cortisol production in the body to help

me survive the day. The labs which I had done (adrenal cortex stress

profile and an ACTH exercise stress test) indicated a number of

things, but bottom line, I have to supplement the way I do because

to do otherwise would be more adrenally suppressive in my particular

circumstances. I'm told that when I am further along with my

chelation protocol, hopefully the HPA will begin funcitoning

normally again and then it may take as long as 9months or more to

wean off the HC so as not to crash. If I am not making sense, I

apologize. I have major brain fog issues. I will think about what

you have said below and I appreciate your response.

Gladioli

-- In iodine , " Skipper Beers " <lsb149@...> wrote:

>

> >From: " gladioli66 " <gladioli66@...>

>

> >I take 10mg as soon as I get up or 8am

>

> Jeffries suggested taking 5 mg 4 times daily. 3 times with meals

and once

> before bed, which he said would help you get up the next day.

>

> Morning is when cortisol is highest. I do wonder if you take a

larger dose

> at that time, if it doesn't shut down production of your own

adrenals when

> they should be at their highest production point.

>

> I'm just wondering about that, I'm not saying it's true. Maybe

that was

> part of the reason he wanted the HC to be spaced out.

>

> HC isn't like an energy pill, so taking it before bed might not

have any ill

> effects on you. Hc does actually help your system calm down a bit

from

> adrenaline, and will slow down your heart rate. Someone with

's

> explained to me that if her heart rate was escalated, she would

take some

> HC, and if it was because of her adrenal insufficiency, her heart

rate would

> go down within a half hour or so.

>

> Cortisol is supposed to help you keep " vigilant " , which I assume

means

> awake, but Jeffries did recommend the last dose before bed, and I

don't have

> any problems sleeping that way.

>

> Just some thoughts. I'm not saying they're the definite way to go

for you.

>

> Skipper

>

> _________________________________________________________________

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> http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-

us & source=wlmailtagline

>

[Guest guest]

--- Skipper Beers <lsb149@...> wrote:

>

> Morning is when cortisol is highest.

Skipper,

Have you heard the saying: I don't know whether it is

up or down. Well, that's me with this stuff :

If cortisol is highest in the morning wouldn't that

mean that someone with hypothyroidism and adrenal

insufficiency would feel more energetic in the

morning?

The reason I ask is it appears most people with these

conditions report having difficult getting up in the

morning and then being charged at night and not being

able to sleep. While it is true if one is charged at

night and cannot sleep it stands to reason they would

be tired in the morning. I think this is a bit

different.

I do wonder if

> you take a larger dose

> at that time, if it doesn't shut down production of

> your own adrenals when

> they should be at their highest production point.

Excellent point. (I understand you are not positing it

as fact.)

>

> Someone with 's

> explained to me that if her heart rate was

> escalated, she would take some

> HC, and if it was because of her adrenal

> insufficiency, her heart rate would

> go down within a half hour or so.

Isn't this the same thing you use Inderall for?

>

> Cortisol is supposed to help you keep " vigilant " ,

> which I assume means

> awake, but Jeffries did recommend the last dose

> before bed, and I don't have

> any problems sleeping that way.

Here's one of the sources of confusion for me. As

explained above.

Abbe

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I have never seen this dosing work that you are on. you may want to dose differently (once again like Jefferies recommends) for more success.

Gracia

As I understand it, a person with 's has adrenals which are incapable of puttting out the necessary hormones because they are diseased or exhausted. I have secondary adrenal insufficiency. My adrenals are fine, although stressed from the heavy metals, but the my HPA is intoxicated with heavy metals, so the hypothalamus and pituitary no longer puts out the appropriate signals, so the adrenals do not respond well and sufficiently to even the stresses of activities of daily living, so my HC dosing should be that which follows the normal rhythm of cortisol production in the body to help me survive the day. The labs which I had done (adrenal cortex stress profile and an ACTH exercise stress test) indicated a number of things, but bottom line, I have to supplement the way I do because to do otherwise would be more adrenally suppressive in my particular circumstances. I'm told that when I am further along with my chelation protocol, hopefully the HPA will begin funcitoning normally again and then it may take as long as 9months or more to wean off the HC so as not to crash. If I am not making sense, I apologize. I have major brain fog issues. I will think about what you have said below and I appreciate your response.Gladioli

..

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Skipper,

This just keeps getting more interesting.

--- Skipper Beers <lsb149@...> wrote:

> >From: Abbe <abbe_online@...>

>

>

> >If cortisol is highest in the morning wouldn't that

> >mean that someone with hypothyroidism and adrenal

> >insufficiency would feel more energetic in the

> >morning?

>

> My wife's AM cortisol on blood tests has ranged from

> 18 to 30 (excluding the

> two weeks she was on vallium and it dropped.) Mine

> has ranged from 6 to 12.

How do you know the drop can be attributed to the

valium?

And

Is your " 6 - 12 " range normal for you without any

help, or is that reading based upon use of HC or

something else. In any case do you consider 6 - 12

within a normal range for anyone?

Generally, people (or peeps as Gracia would say on

the lists suggest the 24 hour test for cortisol is not

accurate. BUT, are you aware of how the 24 hour urine

test is interpreted outside, of course, the ranges

listed on the tests. By this I mean, I notice that

people eschew the lab ranges for T3 and T4 and seem to

have alternative interpretations. I was just

wondering if the same thing is true for the 24 hour

urine cortisol test.

> 12 might not be adequate to get that " energetic "

> feeling.

>

> (Adrenal Fatigue) wrote that with low

> cortisol, we usually

> struggle to get up and going in the morning, but

> sometime around 11PM or so,

> we have an extra burst of energy which we can use,

> but doing this depletes

> our adrenals even more as sleep is extremely

> important.

>

> Yes, that's what claims. Just because it's

> at our highest, doesn't

> mean it's high enough.

What is considered high enough?

> > I do wonder if

> > > you take a larger dose

> > > at that time, if it doesn't shut down production

> of

> > > your own adrenals when

> > > they should be at their highest production

> point.

> >

> >

> >Excellent point. (I understand you are not positing

> it

> >as fact.)

>

> But, it does make some sense. >

It sure does.

Abbe

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

It's not that uncommon a method, to take a larger dose in the AM. Also, few

doctors tell you to take it before bed as Jeffries does.

I think Jeffries method works well, there is some logic to the other method,

I'm just not sure it will work as well as Jeffries. But, it's not that

uncommon an approach.

Skipper

>From: " Gracia " <circe@...>

>I have never seen this dosing work that you are on. you may want to dose

>differently (once again like Jefferies recommends) for more success.

>Gracia

>

>

> As I understand it, a person with 's has adrenals which are

> incapable of puttting out the necessary hormones because they are

> diseased or exhausted. I have secondary adrenal insufficiency. My

> adrenals are fine, although stressed from the heavy metals, but the

> my HPA is intoxicated with heavy metals, so the hypothalamus and

> pituitary no longer puts out the appropriate signals, so the

> adrenals do not respond well and sufficiently to even the stresses

> of activities of daily living, so my HC dosing should be that which

> follows the normal rhythm of cortisol production in the body to help

> me survive the day. The labs which I had done (adrenal cortex stress

> profile and an ACTH exercise stress test) indicated a number of

> things, but bottom line, I have to supplement the way I do because

> to do otherwise would be more adrenally suppressive in my particular

> circumstances. I'm told that when I am further along with my

> chelation protocol, hopefully the HPA will begin funcitoning

> normally again and then it may take as long as 9months or more to

> wean off the HC so as not to crash. If I am not making sense, I

> apologize. I have major brain fog issues. I will think about what

> you have said below and I appreciate your response.

>

> Gladioli

>

>

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[Guest guest]

>

> My

> adrenals are fine, although stressed from the heavy metals, but the

> my HPA is intoxicated with heavy metals,

How was this determined? I've heard mercury called a " specific

adrenal toxin " (though I don't know why because it affects other

organs also.) So, how was it determined your adrenals are fine, it's

just your pituitary that's not?

Can I assume your ACTH level was checked, and it was deficient? I

would think more than one random test of ACTH would be necessary to

determine this, as it kicks in when it thinks it needs to, in addition

to the circadian rhythm element. Sometimes the circadian rhythm is

messed up.

So, I would expect a few tests were made before this was decided?

> pituitary no longer puts out the appropriate signals,

Is it CRH that sends the signal from the hypothalamus to the pituitary

to produce ACTH to tell the adrenals to produce cortisol? So, that

implies CRH was tested too? Othewise the doctor wouldn't know the

hypothalamus was affected by mercury too.

so the

> adrenals do not respond well and sufficiently to even the stresses

> of activities of daily living, so my HC dosing should be that which

> follows the normal rhythm of cortisol production in the body to help

> me survive the day.

So, you're not just dosing that way not just because your adrenals

don't keep up cortisol production, but because the pituitary doesn't

even bother asking for cortisol? So, unlike someone with mild adrenal

insufficiency who's adrenals are producing as much as they can around

8AM, yours aren't even trying to produce any cortisol?

That would mess up the aldosterone levels too, because I think the

ACTH also requests that production from the adrenals. Many with

's Disease need Florinef to compensate for that problem.

Cortisol helps a little in retaining sodium in the sodium / potassium

balance, but with decreased aldosterone, you must have trouble

retaining any sodium at all. That would make you extremely dehydrated.

I could find the " Adrenal Cortex Stress Profile " which measures

cortisol and DHEA with a saliva test. I've never heard of the " ACTH

exercise stress test " , and could not locate anything on google. What

do they do with that? I'm familiar with the ACTH stimulation test,

but that measures cortisol and not ACTH. So, again that wouldn't tell

you the pituitary was bad.

The labs which I had done (adrenal cortex stress

> profile and an ACTH exercise stress test) indicated a number of

> things, but bottom line, I have to supplement the way I do because

> to do otherwise would be more adrenally suppressive in my particular

> circumstances.

If your pituitary really is sick due to heavy metals, you're probably

right.

I'm just not sure from what you've said how that was determined, maybe

because I've never heard of the ACTH exercise stress test.

Skipper

[Guest guest]

>From: Abbe <abbe_online@...>

>How do you know the drop can be attributed to the

>valium?

http://www.cushings-help.com/csr.htm

" epam based tranquillizers like Valium may reduce CRF production and

thereby reduce cortisol levels. Tri-cyclic antidepressants may also have

similar effects. "

Also, it was the only time it was anywhere near low. At 11.9, it

approximated what mine is on a regular basis. Normally it's high.

>

>And

>

>Is your " 6 - 12 " range normal for you without any

>help, or is that reading based upon use of HC or

>something else. In any case do you consider 6 - 12

>within a normal range for anyone?

Normal range is where 95.5% of the population falls. That's completely

different from optimal. Teitalbaum (From Fatigued to Fantastic) and others

suggest a trial of HC when the AM cortisol is under 12.

Without hydrocortisone, my AM cortisol ranged from 6 - 11.6. On HC, the AM

reading is usually close to 12. HC is short lived, I don't take my pill

until after the labs. So, I think it helps stabilize my normal readings.

MY ACTH does show up as high sometimes, so the HPA axis isn't suppressed,

which is the big fear doctors say they have when it comes to low dose HC.

>

>Generally, people (or peeps as Gracia would say on

>the lists suggest the 24 hour test for cortisol is not

>accurate.

I know very little about the 24 hour test, except the statement some of the

labs have given which is that it's to test for Cushing's, and not 's

(high cortisol, not low.)

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

Hi Skipper,

My response will be brief because I just don't have the energy/or

brain power today to give a lengthy response. Just don't want you to

think I am ignoring the things you have said or questioning your

thought provoking questions. See **** responses in abbreviated text

below. If my response does not answer your question, feel free to

ask for more detail. I just cannot handle a large number of

questions all at once. Right not I am just trying to figure out if I

can safely take iodine and if so how much without messing up my

really fragile " constitution " :

***Gladioli: My

> > adrenals are fine, although stressed from the heavy metals, but

the

> > my HPA is intoxicated with heavy metals,

>

Skipper: How was this determined? I've heard mercury called

a " specific

> adrenal toxin " (though I don't know why because it affects other

> organs also.) So, how was it determined your adrenals are fine,

it's

> just your pituitary that's not?

***Gladioli: This would be a really complicated answer involving a

lot of med. history and labs, but here are the basics. My adrenal

cortex stress profile indicated that my body is producing Cortisol,

but very eratically, with an underlying insufficiency.You are

correct that mercury can indeed be a specific adrenal toxin, but

when a person has perhaps 20 or more different things to address,

you focus on the broader picture (I have brain fog, so if something

I say does not make sense, let me know). My body is still producing

cortisol, but my adrenal stress profile indicates the signals the

adrenals receive don't make sense regarding the normal rhythm of

production. The ACTH exercise stress test can be done by any lab

that is capable of drawing a ACTH level.

ACTH EXERCISE STRESS TEST is done as follows:

-Draw ACTH level.

-Have the patient perform at least 30 minutes of heavy exercise

beginning within 15 minutes of first blood draw. This can be aerobic

or anaerobic exercise.

-Rest 15-30 minutes and then draw second ACTH level.

Interpretation- ACTH level should rise to the high end of the

reference range or above. A decline of ACTH after exercise is

pathological.

My ACTH level did not rise at all in response to the stress of

exercise. My symptomology would support my test result. We are as

certain as we can be that my adrenals don't get the necessary

signals. They may be stressed by mercury/thallium/or arsenic

toxicity as well, but since I have the insufficient ACTH response,

this would be impossible to differentiate if I understand correctly.

If you can get your hands on a copy of AMALGAM ILLNESS-DIAGNOSIS AND

TREATMENT by Cutler PhD, take a look at pages 118 to 122. He

does a much better job of explaining adrenal insufficiency related

to heavy metal toxicity than I do.

Gladioli

>

Can I assume your ACTH level was checked, and it was deficient?

I

> would think more than one random test of ACTH would be necessary to

> determine this, as it kicks in when it thinks it needs to, in

addition

> to the circadian rhythm element. Sometimes the circadian rhythm is

> messed up.

>

> So, I would expect a few tests were made before this was decided?

>

> > pituitary no longer puts out the appropriate signals,

>

> Is it CRH that sends the signal from the hypothalamus to the

pituitary

> to produce ACTH to tell the adrenals to produce cortisol? So, that

> implies CRH was tested too? Othewise the doctor wouldn't know the

> hypothalamus was affected by mercury too.

>

> so the

> > adrenals do not respond well and sufficiently to even the

stresses

> > of activities of daily living, so my HC dosing should be that

which

> > follows the normal rhythm of cortisol production in the body to

help

> > me survive the day.

>

> So, you're not just dosing that way not just because your adrenals

> don't keep up cortisol production, but because the pituitary

doesn't

> even bother asking for cortisol? So, unlike someone with mild

adrenal

> insufficiency who's adrenals are producing as much as they can

around

> 8AM, yours aren't even trying to produce any cortisol?

>

> That would mess up the aldosterone levels too, because I think the

> ACTH also requests that production from the adrenals. Many with

> 's Disease need Florinef to compensate for that problem.

>

> Cortisol helps a little in retaining sodium in the sodium /

potassium

> balance, but with decreased aldosterone, you must have trouble

> retaining any sodium at all. That would make you extremely

dehydrated.

>

> I could find the " Adrenal Cortex Stress Profile " which measures

> cortisol and DHEA with a saliva test. I've never heard of

the " ACTH

> exercise stress test " , and could not locate anything on google.

What

> do they do with that? I'm familiar with the ACTH stimulation test,

> but that measures cortisol and not ACTH. So, again that wouldn't

tell

> you the pituitary was bad.

>

> The labs which I had done (adrenal cortex stress

> > profile and an ACTH exercise stress test) indicated a number of

> > things, but bottom line, I have to supplement the way I do

because

> > to do otherwise would be more adrenally suppressive in my

particular

> > circumstances.

>

> If your pituitary really is sick due to heavy metals, you're

probably

> right.

>

> I'm just not sure from what you've said how that was determined,

maybe

> because I've never heard of the ACTH exercise stress test.

>

> Skipper

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Skipper,

> Right not I am just trying to figure out if I

> can safely take iodine and if so how much without messing up my

> really fragile " constitution " :

That question depends a lot on your individual reaction to iodine.

It may start dislodging the mercury, which could make you feel worse

for a period of time.

But, you won't really know the effect on you unless you try it. It

could be real beneficial.

It's not likely to do anything harmful to you.

Iodine and selenium work together, with mercury poisoning it's

probably more important to take selenium along with it. Selenium

helps protect from mercury poisoning. It also helps convert the

inactive thyroid hormone T4 into T3.

> My body is still producing

> cortisol, but my adrenal stress profile indicates the signals the

> adrenals receive don't make sense regarding the normal rhythm of

> production. The ACTH exercise stress test can be done by any lab

> that is capable of drawing a ACTH level.

That's an interesting test, I'd not heard of it before.

Dirunal ryhtms can be messed up even without toxins. Of course, the

ACTH stress test ruled out a simple diurnal problem.

How's your aldosterone level, has that been checked? This is produced

by your adrenals, so might be an indication of how bad your adrenals

are. Typically ACTH problems don't cause aldosterone deficiency.

But, if mercury damages the adrenals, that would.

Your sodium / potassium levels might tell you something about your

aldosterone status.

I think it's important to know.

How's your cholesterol level?

Two things about that related to mercury -

1. Elevated cholesterol is the correct response to mercury, as it

helps carry the toxin out of the body,

2. In some with mercury poisoning, the coenzyme A pathway is affected

causing very low cholesterol.

Also, very low cholesterol will cause adrenal problems as all the

steroid hormones (cortisol, progesterone, pregnenolone, testosterone,

estrogen, Vitamin D, and bile) are all made from cholesterol.

Skipper

[Guest guest]

I have the same problem. I am really sensitive too. I had a heck of time on

just 1/2 iodoral per day. My doctor recommended that I so NAET to reduce my

sensitivities so I am going to do that. I'll report how it goes.

Irene

At 12:27 PM 8/24/2006, you wrote:

> > Right not I am just trying to figure out if I

> > can safely take iodine and if so how much without messing up my

> > really fragile " constitution " :