Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 I think it's unfair to say " you're perpetuating the confusion " when I've tried to take an honest analysis of all the facts. Actually, Tish is very well respected and appreciated by many. And there are actually a lot of folks who have sucessfully done lower dose H/c but are afraid to tell their experiences. It seems anyone who questions the 20 mg/4x a day dosing encounters hostility from some I have found. And i've had my fair share...so let's agree to disagree. I'm not looking for argument...I do like thoughtful analysis. cindi > > > you are really wrong here. Try asking someone who takes cortef how long it lasts. They will be glad to tell you. > I was on a adrenal group. The peeps on that group were sooooo sick and confused, then someone would post something very confusing and sort of authoritative from Tish from NTH, and peeps got way more confused. I had to unsub from the group, no one was getting well at all. > You are perpetuating this confusion! > Gracia > > > > sorta. > i think there are probably two important things to remember when > looking at jefferies work. > > first, since his work....they have developed better ways to assess > what the body actually makes. i don't think that info should be > disregarded. remember back in the 40s when they first started with > this, they were using 100 mg. plus...and they didn't know all the > adverse side effects. this has all has evolved over the last 1/2 > century in that they do know now the adverse side effects of over- > replacement. so although his figures may be slightly off, it > doesn't negate the importance of the message at all. > > second, jefferies did work with cortisone acetate...and although he > said that cortisol was equal...what we do definitely know now is > that hydrocortisone is 20% stronger than cortisone acetate. That's > why with h/c, addison's folks don't need 4x a day dosing. H/C lasts > longer in the body. So i think that information should also be > applied to Jefferies work to see if it 3x a day dosing with H/C is > more appropriate. > > but to answer your question...mostly yes..with an average > replacement dose being 20-25 mg....but this can vary according to > height and weight somewhat. > > As to your other question...there is some info that talks about > which is more suppressive (the stronger ones like prednisone) and of > course the longer action in the body of h/c over cortisone > acetate...but so far, i haven't run across exactly what you're > asking about. Peatfield, however, does indicate that higher doses > may be needed because of digestive/absorbtion issues with the > digestive tract. Since hypo and adrenal problems tend to cause > digestive issues....one might speculate that a higher dose might be > needed initially, and then lowered as those issues resolved. > cindi > > > Recent Activity > a.. 29New Members > Visit Your Group > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 >From: " Gracia " <circe@...> >???? why? your history screams adrenal. I am a 5' 2 " female, actually >not sure how much I weigh, let's say 140, and I take the same dose as >Skipper. Where have you heard that low dose cortisol is dangerous? >Maybe you need to ask peeps who have taken it. >Gracia Actually, the site she quoted has some interesting information, and suggests a " safe dose " that shouldn't suppress the HPA axis - http://www.endotext.org/adrenal/adrenal14/adrenal14.htm " Side effects occur only with supraphysiologic doses of glucocorticoids and not with proper replacement, which is equivalent to 12 to 15 mg of hydrocortisone/ m2 body surface area per day " ******* There's also a calculator that's easy to use at http://tinyurl.com/zslxc. Based on your numbers, between 20 and 25 mg should be a " safe dose " which is what you're already on. I can probably take a bit more than I am, which isn't a surprise to me, as I always wondered about the weight difference between me and the tall, thin blondes that Jeffries said commonly had adrenal insufficiency. Skipper _________________________________________________________________ Add fun gadgets and colorful themes to express yourself on Windows Live Spaces http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get\ ..live.com/spaces/features Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 I am sorry but I think Tish has succeeded in perpetuating fear and obfuscation. We get enough of that from conventional medicine. I think you are doing the same, making something fairly simple , complicated. I really trust Jefferies here and he recommends 2.5/5/7.5mg 4X a day so from 10-30mg/day. THE IMPORTANT PART IS FOUR TIMES A DAY DOSING. Gracia I think it's unfair to say "you're perpetuating the confusion" when I've tried to take an honest analysis of all the facts. Actually, Tish is very well respected and appreciated by many. And there are actually a lot of folks who have sucessfully done lower dose H/c but are afraid to tell their experiences. It seems anyone who questions the 20 mg/4x a day dosing encounters hostility from some I have found. And i've had my fair share...so let's agree to disagree. I'm not looking for argument...I do like thoughtful analysis. cindi--- .. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 I for one took 20 mgs of cortef and on my last drs visit, my resting pulse rate and blood pressure was way higher than on my last visit. I was becoming more annoyed with things that never upset me so my dr said that I was taking too much of the cortef and to lower my dose to 5 mgs. I did ok on it and in another week, I added in another 5 mgs to the morning dose. On week three, I added in 5 mgs to my noon dose. Once I got to 15 mgs, I felt it all coming back and he said we needed to lower it again to 5 mgs. My resting heart rate plus my blood pressure also went back up. He's taking cortef, too so I'm sure that he knows what he's doing. He has patients on it for yrs and for me, I just can't take the cortef anymore. I need to check my adrenals but if I take anything for them, it'll be with the help of my chiropractor. I've had the best of health care from him. lol Sue > > > > > > you are really wrong here. Try asking someone who takes cortef > how long it lasts. They will be glad to tell you. > > I was on a adrenal group. The peeps on that group were > sooooo sick and confused, then someone would post something very > confusing and sort of authoritative from Tish from NTH, and peeps > got way more confused. I had to unsub from the group, no one was > getting well at all. > > You are perpetuating this confusion! > > Gracia > > > > > > > > sorta. > > i think there are probably two important things to remember when > > looking at jefferies work. > > > > first, since his work....they have developed better ways to > assess > > what the body actually makes. i don't think that info should be > > disregarded. remember back in the 40s when they first started > with > > this, they were using 100 mg. plus...and they didn't know all > the > > adverse side effects. this has all has evolved over the last 1/2 > > century in that they do know now the adverse side effects of > over- > > replacement. so although his figures may be slightly off, it > > doesn't negate the importance of the message at all. > > > > second, jefferies did work with cortisone acetate...and although > he > > said that cortisol was equal...what we do definitely know now is > > that hydrocortisone is 20% stronger than cortisone acetate. > That's > > why with h/c, addison's folks don't need 4x a day dosing. H/C > lasts > > longer in the body. So i think that information should also be > > applied to Jefferies work to see if it 3x a day dosing with H/C > is > > more appropriate. > > > > but to answer your question...mostly yes..with an average > > replacement dose being 20-25 mg....but this can vary according > to > > height and weight somewhat. > > > > As to your other question...there is some info that talks about > > which is more suppressive (the stronger ones like prednisone) > and of > > course the longer action in the body of h/c over cortisone > > acetate...but so far, i haven't run across exactly what you're > > asking about. Peatfield, however, does indicate that higher > doses > > may be needed because of digestive/absorbtion issues with the > > digestive tract. Since hypo and adrenal problems tend to cause > > digestive issues....one might speculate that a higher dose might > be > > needed initially, and then lowered as those issues resolved. > > cindi > > > > > > Recent Activity > > a.. 29New Members > > Visit Your Group > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 the same site (different page) also gives an addison's replacement dosage...which basically equates to the same thing as the safe dose of proper replacement. of course giving proper replacement should not cause side effects. again, the question is whether it is wise to be taking a full replacement dosage for AF. Even Jefferies points out the loss of adrenal reserve...storage for stresses. He said 60% loss at 20 mg. If we adjust that to H/c, it would be 60% loss at 16 mg. Again, some folks think this is fine...but then we still have folks on H/C after years...so where is the healing by this protocol? aren't they really just taking a full replacement dose and saying that's okay? and when I read the sentence from this site: Glucocorticoid treatment may not suppress the HPA axis at all, or it may cause central suppression or complete adrenal gland atrophy (6). that's when i went looking for more info on adrenal suppression since this didn't really give much info at all. cindi > > > Actually, the site she quoted has some interesting information, and suggests > a " safe dose " that shouldn't suppress the HPA axis - > > http://www.endotext.org/adrenal/adrenal14/adrenal14.htm > " Side effects occur only with supraphysiologic doses of glucocorticoids and > not with proper replacement, which is equivalent to 12 to 15 mg of > hydrocortisone/ m2 body surface area per day " > ******* > > There's also a calculator that's easy to use at http://tinyurl.com/zslxc. > Based on your numbers, between 20 and 25 mg should be a " safe dose " which is > what you're already on. I can probably take a bit more than I am, which > isn't a surprise to me, as I always wondered about the weight difference > between me and the tall, thin blondes that Jeffries said commonly had > adrenal insufficiency. > > Skipper > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add fun gadgets and colorful themes to express yourself on Windows Live > Spaces > http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/? href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 I used cortef but I'm not and have never been depressed. My dr said that if you take cortef later than noon, it might keep you from being able to fall asleep. Sue > > > FYI Broda Foundation actually recommneds prednisolone (Deltacortril) over cortef! according to a person who called there. Hertoghe uses both but says there is a difference--cortef is best used for mental complaints like depression. DHEA is also good for depression. You don't want to onit the 4th dose of cortef, believe me. gracia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 >From: " cindi22595 " <cindi22595@...> >i agree my history screams adrenal. not questioning that. > >at your height/weight, the upper end of your full replacement dose >is around 23 mg. The text you gave for the dosage, is giving the amount at which side effects can be avoided. The second paragraph below shows that those side effects it intends to avoid includes adrenal suppression - http://www.endotext.org/adrenal/adrenal14/adrenal14.htm Side effects occur only with supraphysiologic doses of glucocorticoids and not with proper replacement, which is equivalent to 12 to 15 mg of hydrocortisone/ m2 body surface area per day These side effects include the development of varying degrees of Cushing's syndrome manifestations during therapy and secondary adrenal insufficiency (adrenal suppression) after discontinuation of treatment. Growth retardation is one of the major side effects of chronic daily glucocorticoid therapy in children ( 23, 24). ********************** Nowhere in the article is 's Disease mentioned. He refers to " adrenal insufficiency " so if his purpose is to give a full replacement dose for 's, that isn't clear. In fact, the article is about " adrenal suppression " so I don't think he's really referring to the " full replacement " dosage of an 's patient. > >Now here's the thing...when you went on H/C, it's probably because >you were Not functioning at 100%....you could have been functioning >at 70% (16 mg.) or less and thus 20 mg. really made you feel better. >But has taking that much H/C strengthened or weakened your >adrenals? And at that type of dose, I'd want to stress dose for >something like dental work or maybe even a brisk walk...because >natural adrenal reserve (storage) has been drastically reduced. You're presuming the 23 mg is the amount her adrenals produce during the day, which isn't what the article says. It tells how much is safe to avoid side effects like adrenal suppression. That's not the same as how much cortisol is produced. The reserve issue is also an assumption on your part. You don't know that reserve has been drastically reduced. In fact, if we have an emergency situation you don't know if our adrenals are actually stronger and can produce all the cortisol it needs to. >The theory is, of course, that resting them strengthens them. But as >Chris's link from SSTM points out, there doesn't seem to be much >evidence of that. I'll tell you my adrenals are a lot stronger than when I started. I don't care much about the evidence, as medical science isn't particularly good. If you think it is then how come Vioxx went to market? How come presription drugs kill hundreds of thousands of people a year? How come the average doctor looks at a lab slip and says, " It's in the normal range, you're OK " but doesn't know that the median TSH is 1.5? How come many of us have had to go to six or seven doctors before we found adequate treatment? You can look at medical research all you want, but if something works, why do we need to know more? The doctors would have you believe 2 minutes in the sun is going to kill you, so you'd better go put on your sunscreen (as if that didn't have toxic ingredients in it.) They allow genetically modified foods to be grown without a major uprising to protect our health. They don't complain about pesticides on the food supply or BGH in milk. So, what important work is medical science and research doing for us? Mainly killing us with toxic drugs they claim are safe, and not bothering to defend the safey of the food supply, which probably causes a lot of illness today. They don't stand up and say, " Gee mercury is a toxic mineral, maybe it's not so wise to have in your mouth? So it's a real possibility that some AF folks >really do just need full replacement? I guess it depends on adrenal >damage done. It is possible. But, the article you referred to was talking about the safe dosage to avoid side effects like adrenal suppression. > >But I don't see how most folks taking a full replacement dose is >necessarily the best thing for their adrenals. If they are weak, >they might want a different protocol to bring them up to 100% >functioning instead of shutting them down and hoping they will >bounce back. >Cindi You're right. That's why authors like who wrote " Adrenal Fatigue " suggests " healing " the adrenals naturally. It's alleged that some people can do that, probably those who haven't been to badly damaged, and those who have years to wait to feel better. YOu can use a different protocol, ours isn't the only one. But, it works well for us. Skipper _________________________________________________________________ Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows Live Spaces http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get\ ..live.com/spaces/features Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 I couldn't take the cortef after noon. If I did, I couldn't sleep. It might not be a problem for others, tho. I do find that the iodoral tabs let me sleep like a baby and I have no problem getting up at 5:00 AM. Sue > > Lowe says that taking the last dose by 4 will eliminate problems with > sleeping...keeping in mind he's talking about AF from hypothyroid. > but i think many addison's folks just dose 2x a day...and so probably > wouldn't be taking it after lunch. > cindi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 There's nothing wrong with wanting to look at all aspects of the cortisol therapy. I for one want to know what I'm doing to my body long term. Thanks for bringing it up. When I read the messages, I completely forget that I'm in the iodine group. Sorry! Sue > > And I think Tish is a very wise and very smart lady who after > accepting/using the 20 mg. H/C protocol...and finding that it was > very difficult to get off of it...plus needing to stress dose - that > she wanted to know why Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Dose only last for 3-4 hours. How on earth could 's patients dose 2X a day? they must be using synthetic time release. Gracia Lowe says that taking the last dose by 4 will eliminate problems with sleeping...keeping in mind he's talking about AF from hypothyroid.but i think many addison's folks just dose 2x a day...and so probably wouldn't be taking it after lunch. cindi>> I used cortef but I'm not and have never been depressed. My dr said > that if you take cortef later than noon, it might keep you from being > able to fall asleep. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Cindi, > Even Jefferies points out the loss of adrenal reserve...storage for > stresses. He said 60% loss at 20 mg. If we adjust that to H/c, it > would be 60% loss at 16 mg. Again, some folks think this is > fine...but then we still have folks on H/C after years...so where is > the healing by this protocol? aren't they really just taking a full > replacement dose and saying that's okay? I think this is wrong. Jefferies didn't say HC caused a loss of adrenal reserve. He said it caused a loss of adrenal output. Then he said that this " resting " would allow the adrenals to have a greater reserve. Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Cindi, it's the dose. Prednisolone (deltacortril) is a synthetic but again LOW DOSE. I have never encountered anyone in alternative med community who talked about time limits on taking Delta or cortef! BB docs just wouldn't do it like that. Only time I have heard about time limits is from NTH members. Call BBF and ask them. Gracia we know prednisone is more HPA axis suppressive long term...so my question would be are they advocating prednisone for a hypo person for a couple of months? or are they advocating prednisone for life time or what? do you know?cindi .. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 wrong dose/not enough gracia I couldn't take the cortef after noon. If I did, I couldn't sleep. It might not be a problem for others, tho. I do find that the iodoral tabs let me sleep like a baby and I have no problem getting up at 5:00 AM.Sue>> Lowe says that taking the last dose by 4 will eliminate problems with > sleeping...keeping in mind he's talking about AF from hypothyroid.> but i think many addison's folks just dose 2x a day...and so probably > wouldn't be taking it after lunch. > cindi No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 I feel somehow that we are making this conversation much harder than it needs to be. In particular, I think we are making way too much of what the initial dose should be. As you said, a relatively high short term dose does no harm, and also digestion is one thing that we cannot standardize between people. So some people really will need to ingest more than your formula to get the effect. So, whatever. Starting with the dose that the most people seem to feel good on makes since to me. But the real question is how you monitor yourself once on HC. I do believe not everyone needs the average dose and I do believe that even if you need the average dose initially, many people will at some point need less or none. So how to negotiate this? As Skipper has been saying several times, perhaps the ACHT test is a good tool. Certainly just trying to reduce is good and informative, but it would be helpful to have labs that target this question. But I also don't want to overstate the need for labs. I think Jefferies did a really nice job of trying to reduce HC in his patients and it seemed like they would find out very quickly whether they needed the higher dose or not. Sharon > sorta. > i think there are probably two important things to remember when > looking at jefferies work. > > first, since his work....they have developed better ways to assess > what the body actually makes. i don't think that info should be > disregarded. remember back in the 40s when they first started with > this, they were using 100 mg. plus...and they didn't know all the > adverse side effects. this has all has evolved over the last 1/2 > century in that they do know now the adverse side effects of over- > replacement. so although his figures may be slightly off, it > doesn't negate the importance of the message at all. > > second, jefferies did work with cortisone acetate...and although he > said that cortisol was equal...what we do definitely know now is > that hydrocortisone is 20% stronger than cortisone acetate. That's > why with h/c, addison's folks don't need 4x a day dosing. H/C lasts > longer in the body. So i think that information should also be > applied to Jefferies work to see if it 3x a day dosing with H/C is > more appropriate. > > but to answer your question...mostly yes..with an average > replacement dose being 20-25 mg....but this can vary according to > height and weight somewhat. > > As to your other question...there is some info that talks about > which is more suppressive (the stronger ones like prednisone) and of > course the longer action in the body of h/c over cortisone > acetate...but so far, i haven't run across exactly what you're > asking about. Peatfield, however, does indicate that higher doses > may be needed because of digestive/absorbtion issues with the > digestive tract. Since hypo and adrenal problems tend to cause > digestive issues....one might speculate that a higher dose might be > needed initially, and then lowered as those issues resolved. > cindi > > > > > > since Jefferies time, they have developed better studies > > > > So, if this is correct then Jefferies might agree that 21-24mg is > > what the body makes for itself, the theoretical replacement dose, > so > > to speak? And he gave 35-40mg as the actual replacement dose to > get > > that effect? > > > > But you are saying that new research suggests that 12-15mg is what > > the body makes and 20-25mg is what is needed to get that effect? > Or > > did I get this wrong? > > > > And while we are on the topic of efficiency of cortisol meds, is > > there any research that looks at the > > efficiency/digestibility/availability of the different types, > e.g., > > hydrocortisone, cortisol, and cortisol acetate? > > > > Sharon > > > > > that is correct...and i always talk in terms of the oral h/c > > dose...it > > > gets too confusing otherwise. and most articles/abstracts do the > > > same...refering to the oral h/c..exogeneous, not endogeneous. > > > > > > but the body makes around 10 mg. of h/c....i had that in one of > > the > > > references. > > > cindi > > > > > > > > > I thought Jefferies said that 35-40mg was NOT what the body > > produced, > > > > but what was required to provide the body with a replacement > > dose. He > > > > then concluded that it was likely a digestion/availability > > issue - > > > > that only 60% of the cortisone taken was available. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 right...taking over a replacement dose will of course cause adrenal suppression...there would be no doubt about it. it would be a side effect. but as we've earlier discussed....at what point (mg.) adrenal suppression occurs at sub-replacement dosages - is variable. This page cites the addison's replacement dose - i think you'll find it equates to " proper replacement " . http://www.endotext.org/adrenal/adrenal13/adrenalframe13.htm cindi > > >From: " cindi22595 " <cindi22595@...> > > >i agree my history screams adrenal. not questioning that. > > > >at your height/weight, the upper end of your full replacement dose > >is around 23 mg. > > The text you gave for the dosage, is giving the amount at which side effects > can be avoided. The second paragraph below shows that those side effects it > intends to avoid includes adrenal suppression - > > > http://www.endotext.org/adrenal/adrenal14/adrenal14.htm > Side effects occur only with supraphysiologic doses of glucocorticoids and > not with proper replacement, which is equivalent to 12 to 15 mg of > hydrocortisone/ m2 body surface area per day > > These side effects include the development of varying degrees of Cushing's > syndrome manifestations during therapy and secondary adrenal insufficiency > (adrenal suppression) after discontinuation of treatment. Growth retardation > is one of the major side effects of chronic daily glucocorticoid therapy in > children ( 23, 24). > ********************** > > Nowhere in the article is 's Disease mentioned. He refers to > " adrenal insufficiency " so if his purpose is to give a full replacement dose > for 's, that isn't clear. In fact, the article is about " adrenal > suppression " so I don't think he's really referring to the " full > replacement " dosage of an 's patient. > > > > >Now here's the thing...when you went on H/C, it's probably because > >you were Not functioning at 100%....you could have been functioning > >at 70% (16 mg.) or less and thus 20 mg. really made you feel better. > >But has taking that much H/C strengthened or weakened your > >adrenals? And at that type of dose, I'd want to stress dose for > >something like dental work or maybe even a brisk walk...because > >natural adrenal reserve (storage) has been drastically reduced. > > You're presuming the 23 mg is the amount her adrenals produce during the > day, which isn't what the article says. It tells how much is safe to avoid > side effects like adrenal suppression. That's not the same as how much > cortisol is produced. > > The reserve issue is also an assumption on your part. You don't know that > reserve has been drastically reduced. In fact, if we have an emergency > situation you don't know if our adrenals are actually stronger and can > produce all the cortisol it needs to. > > > >The theory is, of course, that resting them strengthens them. But as > >Chris's link from SSTM points out, there doesn't seem to be much > >evidence of that. > > I'll tell you my adrenals are a lot stronger than when I started. I don't > care much about the evidence, as medical science isn't particularly good. > If you think it is then how come Vioxx went to market? How come presription > drugs kill hundreds of thousands of people a year? How come the average > doctor looks at a lab slip and says, " It's in the normal range, you're OK " > but doesn't know that the median TSH is 1.5? > > How come many of us have had to go to six or seven doctors before we found > adequate treatment? > > You can look at medical research all you want, but if something works, why > do we need to know more? > > The doctors would have you believe 2 minutes in the sun is going to kill > you, so you'd better go put on your sunscreen (as if that didn't have toxic > ingredients in it.) They allow genetically modified foods to be grown > without a major uprising to protect our health. They don't complain about > pesticides on the food supply or BGH in milk. So, what important work is > medical science and research doing for us? Mainly killing us with toxic > drugs they claim are safe, and not bothering to defend the safey of the food > supply, which probably causes a lot of illness today. > > They don't stand up and say, " Gee mercury is a toxic mineral, maybe it's not > so wise to have in your mouth? > > So it's a real possibility that some AF folks > >really do just need full replacement? I guess it depends on adrenal > >damage done. > > It is possible. But, the article you referred to was talking about the safe > dosage to avoid side effects like adrenal suppression. > > > > > >But I don't see how most folks taking a full replacement dose is > >necessarily the best thing for their adrenals. If they are weak, > >they might want a different protocol to bring them up to 100% > >functioning instead of shutting them down and hoping they will > >bounce back. > >Cindi > > You're right. That's why authors like who wrote " Adrenal > Fatigue " suggests " healing " the adrenals naturally. It's alleged that some > people can do that, probably those who haven't been to badly damaged, and > those who have years to wait to feel better. > > YOu can use a different protocol, ours isn't the only one. But, it works > well for us. > > Skipper > > _________________________________________________________________ > Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows Live > Spaces > http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/? href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 i would refer you back to jefferies info on 20 mg. and 60%. Cindi > > >From: " cindi22595 " <cindi22595@...> > > >i agree my history screams adrenal. not questioning that. > > > >at your height/weight, the upper end of your full replacement dose > >is around 23 mg. > > The text you gave for the dosage, is giving the amount at which side effects > can be avoided. The second paragraph below shows that those side effects it > intends to avoid includes adrenal suppression - > > > http://www.endotext.org/adrenal/adrenal14/adrenal14.htm > Side effects occur only with supraphysiologic doses of glucocorticoids and > not with proper replacement, which is equivalent to 12 to 15 mg of > hydrocortisone/ m2 body surface area per day > > These side effects include the development of varying degrees of Cushing's > syndrome manifestations during therapy and secondary adrenal insufficiency > (adrenal suppression) after discontinuation of treatment. Growth retardation > is one of the major side effects of chronic daily glucocorticoid therapy in > children ( 23, 24). > ********************** > > Nowhere in the article is 's Disease mentioned. He refers to > " adrenal insufficiency " so if his purpose is to give a full replacement dose > for 's, that isn't clear. In fact, the article is about " adrenal > suppression " so I don't think he's really referring to the " full > replacement " dosage of an 's patient. > > > > >Now here's the thing...when you went on H/C, it's probably because > >you were Not functioning at 100%....you could have been functioning > >at 70% (16 mg.) or less and thus 20 mg. really made you feel better. > >But has taking that much H/C strengthened or weakened your > >adrenals? And at that type of dose, I'd want to stress dose for > >something like dental work or maybe even a brisk walk...because > >natural adrenal reserve (storage) has been drastically reduced. > > You're presuming the 23 mg is the amount her adrenals produce during the > day, which isn't what the article says. It tells how much is safe to avoid > side effects like adrenal suppression. That's not the same as how much > cortisol is produced. > > The reserve issue is also an assumption on your part. You don't know that > reserve has been drastically reduced. In fact, if we have an emergency > situation you don't know if our adrenals are actually stronger and can > produce all the cortisol it needs to. > > > >The theory is, of course, that resting them strengthens them. But as > >Chris's link from SSTM points out, there doesn't seem to be much > >evidence of that. > > I'll tell you my adrenals are a lot stronger than when I started. I don't > care much about the evidence, as medical science isn't particularly good. > If you think it is then how come Vioxx went to market? How come presription > drugs kill hundreds of thousands of people a year? How come the average > doctor looks at a lab slip and says, " It's in the normal range, you're OK " > but doesn't know that the median TSH is 1.5? > > How come many of us have had to go to six or seven doctors before we found > adequate treatment? > > You can look at medical research all you want, but if something works, why > do we need to know more? > > The doctors would have you believe 2 minutes in the sun is going to kill > you, so you'd better go put on your sunscreen (as if that didn't have toxic > ingredients in it.) They allow genetically modified foods to be grown > without a major uprising to protect our health. They don't complain about > pesticides on the food supply or BGH in milk. So, what important work is > medical science and research doing for us? Mainly killing us with toxic > drugs they claim are safe, and not bothering to defend the safey of the food > supply, which probably causes a lot of illness today. > > They don't stand up and say, " Gee mercury is a toxic mineral, maybe it's not > so wise to have in your mouth? > > So it's a real possibility that some AF folks > >really do just need full replacement? I guess it depends on adrenal > >damage done. > > It is possible. But, the article you referred to was talking about the safe > dosage to avoid side effects like adrenal suppression. > > > > > >But I don't see how most folks taking a full replacement dose is > >necessarily the best thing for their adrenals. If they are weak, > >they might want a different protocol to bring them up to 100% > >functioning instead of shutting them down and hoping they will > >bounce back. > >Cindi > > You're right. That's why authors like who wrote " Adrenal > Fatigue " suggests " healing " the adrenals naturally. It's alleged that some > people can do that, probably those who haven't been to badly damaged, and > those who have years to wait to feel better. > > YOu can use a different protocol, ours isn't the only one. But, it works > well for us. > > Skipper > > _________________________________________________________________ > Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows Live > Spaces > http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/? href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 I think it's sad folks have to personally attack others when they disagree with their information. Again, Tish is a very smart woman and is well respected by many, including myself. One thing she is not - is confused. cindi > > > Tish doesn't understand that other hormones are involved when adrenals are low. Low thyroid/low adrenal/low sex hormones. I am not sure she understood about DHEA either. IMO she understood very little. She was/is confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 do you not reduce reserve when you reduce total output? it seems logical that if you reduce the function of the adrenals overall, you've reduced normal reserve capacity. but i have someone who is very knowledgeable about jefferies work that wrote me just a little bit ago about this discussion here...so I'll ask him about it, since i think this is an important point. btw, this is the type discussion i like. honest inquiry without attack. thank you for that. cindi > > I think this is wrong. Jefferies didn't say HC caused a loss of > adrenal reserve. He said it caused a loss of adrenal output. Then he > said that this " resting " would allow the adrenals to have a greater > reserve. > > Sharon > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 h/c has half-life of 8-12 hrs...i guess that's how. interesting, i've seen discussion that a time-released form would be good--because some of the negative effects of H/C appear to be " too much hitting the body at one time " type of adverse effect. cindi - In iodine , " Gracia " <circe@...> wrote: > > > Dose only last for 3-4 hours. How on earth could 's patients dose 2X a day? they must be using synthetic time release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 no question--I am much stronger on cortef. I was going backwards without it. I work in a very stressful environment and am able to cope with all kinds of stress. I never feel that I am on the edge of an abyss. I almost never take more than 20mg/day. gracia i agree my history screams adrenal. not questioning that. at your height/weight, the upper end of your full replacement dose is around 23 mg. Now here's the thing...when you went on H/C, it's probably because you were Not functioning at 100%....you could have been functioning at 70% (16 mg.) or less and thus 20 mg. really made you feel better. But has taking that much H/C strengthened or weakened your adrenals? And at that type of dose, I'd want to stress dose for something like dental work or maybe even a brisk walk...because natural adrenal reserve (storage) has been drastically reduced. The theory is, of course, that resting them strengthens them. But as Chris's link from SSTM points out, there doesn't seem to be much evidence of that. So it's a real possibility that some AF folks really do just need full replacement? I guess it depends on adrenal damage done. But I don't see how most folks taking a full replacement dose is necessarily the best thing for their adrenals. If they are weak, they might want a different protocol to bring them up to 100% functioning instead of shutting them down and hoping they will bounce back. Cindi .. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 dang. i thought it was just me who thought they walked into the wrong forum. i can vaguely remembering responding this morning to something someone had said about h/c...and i even remember saying " back to iodine? " at some point...and it just continues. let's move on, folks..H/C discussion is probably best on an adrenal forum i would think. cindi > > There's nothing wrong with wanting to look at all aspects of the > cortisol therapy. I for one want to know what I'm doing to my body long > term. Thanks for bringing it up. When I read the messages, I completely > forget that I'm in the iodine group. Sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 well....i could go into what a prednisone replacement dosage is...but i'm gonna drop it, okay? but i will mention peatfield mentions " time limits " . But if someone is still on 20 mg. h/c after 2 or 3 years, I would seriously wonder if they are trying to " heal " their adrenals...or just taking h/c replacement for life. If that's their decision based on their situation - and they have made an informed decision, i'm not going to argue with that. cindi > > > Cindi, it's the dose. Prednisolone (deltacortril) is a synthetic but again LOW DOSE. I have never encountered anyone in alternative med community who talked about time limits on taking Delta or cortef! BB docs just wouldn't do it like that. Only time I have heard about time limits is from NTH members. > Call BBF and ask them. > Gracia > > we know prednisone is more HPA axis suppressive long term...so my > question would be are they advocating prednisone for a hypo person > for a couple of months? or are they advocating prednisone for life > time or what? do you know? > cindi > > > Recent Activity > a.. 29New Members > Visit Your Group > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 well why couldn't i have said it that simply? :-) yes. I so often just hear the 20 mg. a day/4x a day mantra...and it seems some of the rest of it (peatfield saying start with 2.5 and work up as needed) is just forgotten. thanks. cindi > > > > > > So, if this is correct then Jefferies might agree that 21-24mg > is > > > what the body makes for itself, the theoretical replacement > dose, > > so > > > to speak? And he gave 35-40mg as the actual replacement dose to > > get > > > that effect? > > > > > > But you are saying that new research suggests that 12-15mg is > what > > > the body makes and 20-25mg is what is needed to get that effect? > > Or > > > did I get this wrong? > > > > > > And while we are on the topic of efficiency of cortisol meds, is > > > there any research that looks at the > > > efficiency/digestibility/availability of the different types, > > e.g., > > > hydrocortisone, cortisol, and cortisol acetate? > > > > > > Sharon > > > > > > > that is correct...and i always talk in terms of the oral h/c > > > dose...it > > > > gets too confusing otherwise. and most articles/abstracts do > the > > > > same...refering to the oral h/c..exogeneous, not endogeneous. > > > > > > > > but the body makes around 10 mg. of h/c....i had that in one > of > > > the > > > > references. > > > > cindi > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought Jefferies said that 35-40mg was NOT what the body > > > produced, > > > > > but what was required to provide the body with a replacement > > > dose. He > > > > > then concluded that it was likely a digestion/availability > > > issue - > > > > > that only 60% of the cortisone taken was available. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 this is not a personal attack. Please be clear about that. This is my assessment of her "information". It's very very confused. That does not mean she's a bad person etc. It means she is unwell. Gracia I think it's sad folks have to personally attack others when they disagree with their information. Again, Tish is a very smart woman and is well respected by many, including myself. One thing she is not - is confused. cindi>> > Tish doesn't understand that other hormones are involved when adrenals are low. Low thyroid/low adrenal/low sex hormones. I am not sure she understood about DHEA either. IMO she understood very little. She was/is confused. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Cindi I take H/C. Dose lasts 3-4 hours. maybe my metabolism is different from other peeps. gracia h/c has half-life of 8-12 hrs...i guess that's how. interesting, i've seen discussion that a time-released form would be good--because some of the negative effects of H/C appear to be "too much hitting the body at one time" type of adverse effect. cindi- In iodine , "Gracia" <circe@...> wrote:>> > Dose only last for 3-4 hours. How on earth could 's patients dose 2X a day? they must be using synthetic time release. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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