Re: Blood and saliva tests/Iodoral and progesterone

[Guest guest]

Skipper, I have been on hormone discussion groups for 14 years, been to many docs, taken many blood and saliva tests, corresponded with thousands of fellow test takers, corresponded with the tests' inventors and met them at medical conferences.

You call the tests OBjective. Well, what I think you mean by that is tests attempt to quantify something that reveals an absolute fact. Even the tests' manufacturers will tell you that's not true.

What some of us are saying is, the tests are NOT RELIABLE. Life would be much easier if they were. Test results so often DO NOT correspond to what the patient is feeling that they are pretty useless. Once I got all my hormones saliva-tested and the testosterone came back 10 X higher than an 18 year old boy's should be. They repeated the test. Same results.

The lab emailed me asking if I was obese, balding and had acne since that corresponded with the hormone profile. Well, I was female, weighed 100 lbs, had a head full head of hair and clear skin. And, uh yeah, I checked, no apparent testicles.

I was blood-tested several times on the Wiley Protocol which turned out to be a joke also.

But they did get my gender straight.

The Iodine Loading Test appears to be fairly reflective in most people in the Iodine Investigation Project but we have had a few anomalies there too.

Just setting the record straight. No self-respecting practitioner treats to the test, they treat the patient.

Lynne

Skipper writes:

Does everyone on this board hate testing so much that even suggesting it is bad?Unless someone gets a saliva test for progesterone before and after iodine treatment, I don't think they can really say if it's true or not.

[Guest guest]

This is so true, Lynne.

I use testing as a tool only and always, always put symptoms above labs.

Even some of the hormone saliva testing isn’t always reliable and

certainly testing hormones through blood will almost never give a true picture.

I was made accutely aware of this while going through

cancer. Even tumor marker tests,

which is what oncologists live by, are not that reliable. And at the bottom of every lab sheet for

a tumor marker test it is stated that “This is not a reliable test for

cancer.”

The body changes every day and what the labs say one day will

be different the next day.

Lifestyle plays a huge factor in testing. I’m not saying to throw all

testing out the window, but I am saying that it does not need to be put an

end-all. It is a piece to the

puzzle, but only a piece. We need

to find out what is going on with the “whole” body.

Dr. L

Skipper, I have been on hormone

discussion groups for 14 years, been to many docs, taken many blood and saliva

tests, corresponded with thousands of fellow test takers, corresponded with the

tests' inventors and met them at medical conferences.

You call the tests OBjective. Well, what I think you mean by that is tests

attempt to quantify something that reveals an absolute fact.

Even the tests' manufacturers will tell you that's not true.

What some of us are saying is, the tests

are NOT RELIABLE. Life would be much easier if they were. Test results so often

DO NOT correspond to what the patient is feeling that they are pretty useless.

Once I got all my hormones saliva-tested and the testosterone came back 10 X

higher than an 18 year old boy's should be. They repeated the test. Same

results.

The lab emailed me asking if I was obese,

balding and had acne since that corresponded with the hormone profile. Well, I

was female, weighed 100 lbs, had a head full head of hair and clear skin.

And, uh yeah, I checked, no apparent testicles.

I was blood-tested several times on the

Wiley Protocol which turned out to be a joke also.

But they did get my gender straight.

The Iodine Loading Test appears to be

fairly reflective in most people in the Iodine Investigation Project but we

have had a few anomalies there too.

Just setting the record straight. No

self-respecting practitioner treats to the test, they treat the patient.

Lynne

[Guest guest]

>

>

> You call the tests OBjective. Well, what I think you mean by that

is tests

> attempt to quantify something that reveals an absolute fact. Even

the tests'

> manufacturers will tell you that's not true.

It does reveal absolute fact. At least if it's done right. If it's a

saliva test, as long as it's done properly, it tells the real amount

of progesterone, testosterone, cortisol, or thyroid hormone in the

saliva. That is an objective measure.

The problem is with the interpretation.

My hypothyroidism was diagnosed by TSH. That lab test worked for me

in 1997. When I went to the doctor for the first time with symptoms,

why he ran T4 and T3, but there was no TSH on the lab slip, I don't

know. Maybe it was on a page I don't have and it was normal the first

time.

Regardless, in 1997 I'm quite glad my TSH was 15.0, so my problem

could finally be diagnosed.

I was easy to interpret in 1997.

My wife and son weren't so lucky. The interpretation was wrong. Our

thyroid doc says that diagnosis is 85% patient history, 10% clinical

examination and 5% lab work. Because that 5% can be real important to

the health of the patient, the lab has to draw 5 to 8 vials of blood

for the lab tests he wants to look at. He does only give it a 5%

weight, but that is still extremely important.

Regardless of who said it (Pat2.hormone, whoever and whatever he is)

it can be a relevant thing if iodine really does tend to raise

progesterone levels. (He sent me an email when I posted something

about low cholesterol, I asked him if iodine was helpful to the

adrenals and that's what he sent me.) It might mean if someone is

taking progesterone, they don't need as much or they can discontinue

it. Dr. Lee thought many people would only need progesterone for

a short time. Not everyone needs it forever.

If one's progesterone is going up, that could be a sign the iodine is

doing something positive. It may be a reason to cut back on

supplemental progesterone.

Back to interpretation, if one has high cholesterol levels (as

example), it could mean even if thyroid tests are normal, they need

thyroid hormone, not the statins the doctors want to give. It could

also mean that one has mercury or some other toxin that should elevate

cholesterol, as it helps eliminate it from the body. Actually, the

reason someone like this might do better with thyroid hormone or

cortisol is because the toxin might be doing damage to the thyroid

adrenals that they can't keep up with.

A lab test showing elevated cholesterol means there's something the

doctor should investigate to find the reason. It's not likely to be

obvious whether it's a simple thyroid problem or a toxin. You're

right most don't bother pursuing it. They just believe the lab and

don't bother with interpretation because they don't even have the

knowledge to do so.

I'm rather surprised that some people are using 250 mg of progesterone

cream a day, which is more than 10 times what Dr. Lee recommended.

I'm not going to deny that those people may need that much

progesterone, but it makes me wonder why. It could be they're

mistaken about it. It could also be that it's compensating for

another problem that isn't diagnosed yet. Maybe it's a toxin that

progesterone helps with, as it can turn into a lot of other valuable

hormones. Maybe it's excessive estrogen, as it's obvious from the

male fish that have ovaries on both our East Coast and West Coast,

that we're being bombarded by it, as it's in the water from the birth

control pills, and in the plastics we drink from and store our foods in.

If one knows they need lots of progesterone to feel good, it may be

relevant to them in finding their real solution, instead of just using

it to compensate for something else.

Curing the root problem is best, if it can be figured out.

Compensating for it in any way possible is only second best.

If it's excessive estrogen that the progesterone is protecting one

from, I would think that estrogen would show up as high. The person

who's taking 240 mg in two doses knows that high estrogen is the

reason she needs so much.

Just to say that there's no point to tests, is kind of a narrow view.

Yes, I understand if we relied on tests and made all medical decisions

based on them, some of us wouldn't feel well. It was the seventh

doctor my wife went to that finally treated her, because her thyroid

labs always came out " normal. " Yet, she got better with aggressive

thyroid treatment. I'm sure there's a reason she needs 405 mcg of

timed release T3, but I don't know what it is yet. Or maybe I do, as

cortisol interferes with thyroid function, and she always has high

readings.

>Test results so often DO NOT correspond to what the

> patient is feeling that they are pretty useless.

They are sometimes helpful. Do you think maybe someone who has spent

14 years on health groups, or others who are looking for answers might

actually be more complex than those who aren't looking for answers

because the tests worked just fine? Do you think maybe a hypothyroid

person is far much more likely to participate in thyroid groups

because either they were difficult to diagnose, or synthyroid didn't

work for them? Maybe a lot of people have no problem getting

diagnosed, or taking synthroid.

Just because the interpretation of tests didn't work for you, doesn't

mean they are completely invalid, it doesn't even mean they don't work

for the majority.

I don't know the accuracy of saliva tests. I know Dr. Lee thought

they were pretty good. If my testosterone came back 10 times higher

than an 18 year old boy, even though I'm male, I would expect my

doctor to want another test to confirm it, and maybe even a blood test

to see if it agreed with the saliva.

Or, if I was on progesterone (do you know sometimes that helpful to

males, too?) doses like the 240 mg a day kind, I would wonder if

perhaps the progesterone was turning into testosterone. I know when I

take DHEA it raises my testosterone considerably, but also raises my

estrogen above what I would like it to be (on a blood test, I've never

taken a saliva test.) If I was taking progesterone, I would spend

some time wondering what it's turning into -

http://www.yourmenopausetype.com/steroidpathway/progesterone.htm

" In fact, progesterone is a precursor (building block) for most other

hormones including DHEA, estradiol, testosterone and cortisol. "

********************************

IF someone has to take progesterone and their testosterone is low, I

would wonder why. If someone is takeing progesterone and they also

have to take testosterone, I would wonder why. Is progesterone not

turning into these hormones?

Why does someone who posts have to take 250 mg of progesterone and

then also have to take estradiol, testosterone, and cortisol? If the

progesterone isn't turning, there's something wrong with the pathway,

that needs to be examined.

I may not remember this correctly, but I think Dr. Lee said taking

excessive progesterone would have the same effect as taking none at

all. If that's true, then that would explain why someone taking 250

mg of progesterone would also have to take the hormones that it turns

into.

>Once I got all my hormones saliva-tested and the testosterone came

>back 10 X higher than an 18 year old boy's should be. They repeated

the test. Same results. > The lab emailed me asking if I was obese,

balding and had acne since that corresponded with the hormone profile.

They were kind of dumb, because you know that someone with 10 x the

testosterone of an 18 year old should be more like the Barry Bonds

profile. (The anabolic steroids mimic T.) Tesosterone keeps the

weight down and gives other advantages to males. Those old fat men

with the enlarged breasts, actually wind up with more estrogen than

their wive's have after menopause. Male fat cells produce

Estrogen.So, I imagine the fatter we get, the more estrogen we have.

I would think if someone was taking 250 mg of progesterone (or

DHEA),or even less, a large part of it could indeed turn into

testosterone, and it could be greatly elevated. Those hormones don't

always turn into what we want. DHEA more than doubled my testosterone

in the six months between labs.

I know nothing about Wiley.

> The Iodine Loading Test appears to be fairly reflective in most

people in

> the Iodine Investigation Project but we have had a few anomalies

there too.

There's no perfect lab test. Those Canadian doctors who said during

Derry's trials that all that mattered were the chemical levels in the

blood being normalized, and how the patient felt didn't matter were

insane.

Just because that's a bad attitude and not helpful to most patients,

doesn't mean most lab tests are bad.

>

> Just setting the record straight. No self-respecting practitioner

treats to

> the test, they treat the patient.

Excuse me? Most " self-respecting " practitioners do treat that way.

It is unfortunate, but it is true. It's hard to find a doctor who

doesn't treat based on labs.

It will be interesting to hear from those taking iodine who are

getting lab tests and how it's affecting them. I would suspect it

would mainly affect thyroid tests, but if iodine also helps the

adrenals the tests might provide some evidence of that.

Dr. Derry talked about how quickly iodine would go to the female

parts. That says to me it could have some function in producing

female hormones. So, lab tests could be helpful in determining this.

Skipper

[Guest guest]

I have never had an accurate hormone test, absolutely never, on blood or saliva. Only the 24 hr urine test from AAL lab correlated to what I needed and how I felt. And getting the hormones I needed/doses I needed made me feel well.

Uzzi Reiss' wife uses more than 250mg progestrone/day. Look at the ranges for hormones in Hertoghe's book Hormone Solutions. Look at the ranges for hormones on http://www.womensinternational.com

i will let you know when I can lower or eliminate some of the sex hormones I take, but so far, I cannot.

Gracia

>> > You call the tests OBjective. Well, what I think you mean by thatis tests > attempt to quantify something that reveals an absolute fact. Eventhe tests' > manufacturers will tell you that's not true. It does reveal absolute fact. At least if it's done right. If it's asaliva test, as long as it's done properly, it tells the real amountof progesterone, testosterone, cortisol, or thyroid hormone in thesaliva. That is an objective measure.The problem is with the interpretation.

..

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[Guest guest]

>

>

> I have never had an accurate hormone test, absolutely never, on

blood or saliva. Only the 24 hr urine test from AAL lab correlated to

what I needed and how I felt. And getting the hormones I needed/doses

I needed made me feel well.

> Uzzi Reiss' wife uses more than 250mg progestrone/day. Look at

the ranges for hormones in Hertoghe's book Hormone Solutions. Look

at the ranges for hormones on http://www.womensinternational.com

> i will let you know when I can lower or eliminate some of the sex

hormones I take, but so far, I cannot.

> Gracia

Gracia, I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong for you. My family

would have gotten a lot better quicker if thyroid labs were a bit more

meaningful than they are.

However, I do wonder why someone would need 10 times more progesterone

than Dr. Lee recommended. I've not read the other hormone books

you mentioned, and am not interested in doing so. They may suggest

the approach you are taking, I don't know.

It does leave some questions, though.

One, why do you need testosterone when you are taking DHEA? If the

DHEA isn't turning into testosterone what's it doing, just remaining DHEA?

Two, why does it seem you have to supplement all the hormones

progesterone turns into? Is there some kind of conversion problem you

have turning progesterone into those hormones?

Three, I'm assuming you're referring to progesterone cream. I think

for oral use that the 250 mg dosage is more common since much more

progesterone is available when it's absorbed through the skin.You

said, or I assumed you used the cream, but maybe I have that wrong.

Fourth, if it's the cream, are you having problems absorbing it

through the skin? Could that be why you need so much?

Fifth, has taking so much de-sensitized the receptors so you simply

need to keep up those levels? Lee said he found the high doses didn't

have any advantage and I got the impression maybe it simply made the

receptors less sensitive.

Sixth, if you started the HRT before thyroid replacement, since

thyroid affects everything I would have expected your need to change.

Unless something is wrong, you shouldn't need as much as you did before.

Seventh, if it's an OTC cream, or even a compounded one, maybe it's

deficient. OTC isn't guaranteed and compounders aren't perfect.

Skipper

[Guest guest]

Skipper,

I was going to stop responding to this thread when you described the saliva tests as "fact."

Neither test manufacturers or doctors would ever make this claim. At best, they would suggest the tests are guidelines that are not always reliable.

---But as per your msg to Gracia, it appears even more correction is needed.

Skipper wrote:<<Three, I'm assuming you're referring to progesterone cream. I thinkfor oral use that the 250 mg dosage is more common since much moreprogesterone is available when it's absorbed through the skin.Yousaid, or I assumed you used the cream, but maybe I have that wrong.

....However, I do wonder why someone would need 10 times more progesteronethan Dr. Lee recommended. I've not read the other hormone booksyou mentioned, and am not interested in doing so. They may suggestthe approach you are taking, I don't know.>>

1. There is widespread difference in the absorption of progesterone. (Also, 250 mg oral would approximate 25 mg transdermal creams/oils).

2. Dr. Zava, inventor of saliva tests, has declared from his long experience that women vary in their absorption of the creams by a factor of 30 fold.Skipper wrote:<<Two, why does it seem you have to supplement all the hormonesprogesterone turns into? Is there some kind of conversion problem youhave turning progesterone into those hormones?>>

Where did you get the idea progesterone converts in a predictable way?

<<Fifth, has taking so much de-sensitized the receptors so you simplyneed to keep up those levels? Lee said he found the high doses didn'thave any advantage and I got the impression maybe it simply made thereceptors less sensitive.>>

No, the reverse appears to happen. Progesterone builds up in the tissues. The HALF LIFE OF PROGESTERONE IS FOUR MONTHS. See the references/ documentation for this in Bent Formby, PhD's article on <rhythmicliving.com>. I personally checked each reference. Progesterone, according to Funahashi, enhance each other's effects.

Lynne

[Guest guest]

Skipper

I get my transdermal hormones from a compounding pharmacist, who is fine with my doses, as is the doc. My compounding pharmacist is a babe! looks like Bridget Bardot! and is fun to talk to. She learned her stuff at College Pharmacy in CO. Actually my BB doc first Rxed them for me, but he gave me too little testosterone, which caused probs. My doses are actually the upper limit of recommended, everywhere except Dr. Lee and Pat! So I never thought I was taking too much. Really you should read Hormone Solutions by Hertoghe MD. He has a new book too for physicians, costs about $250.

I would be thrilled if I could take DHEA and a dab of progesterone but I just can't. I am sure that iodine will help with my hormones. Sometimes I experiment to see if I can lower doses and it's always a disaster.

I could not tolerate much Armour so I took 90mg for a few years but of course I desperately needed more. (only have half a thyroid gland). I could only get to proper dose of Armour, 240mg, when I got enough estradiol! (5mg/day) and cortef. I know some peeps will say that estrogen increases need for thyroid meds, but I think estrogen enabled me to utilize thyroid. I started with Armour but really wasn't well until I got ENOUGH sex hormones and cortef. This was confirmed for me by the 24 hr urine test from AAL.

Gracia

>> > I have never had an accurate hormone test, absolutely never, onblood or saliva. Only the 24 hr urine test from AAL lab correlated towhat I needed and how I felt. And getting the hormones I needed/dosesI needed made me feel well. > Uzzi Reiss' wife uses more than 250mg progestrone/day. Look atthe ranges for hormones in Hertoghe's book Hormone Solutions. Lookat the ranges for hormones on http://www.womensinternational.com > i will let you know when I can lower or eliminate some of the sexhormones I take, but so far, I cannot.> GraciaGracia, I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong for you. My familywould have gotten a lot better quicker if thyroid labs were a bit moremeaningful than they are.However, I do wonder why someone would need 10 times more progesteronethan Dr. Lee recommended. I've not read the other hormone booksyou mentioned, and am not interested in doing so. They may suggestthe approach you are taking, I don't know. It does leave some questions, though.One, why do you need testosterone when you are taking DHEA? If theDHEA isn't turning into testosterone what's it doing, just remaining DHEA?Two, why does it seem you have to supplement all the hormonesprogesterone turns into? Is there some kind of conversion problem youhave turning progesterone into those hormones?Three, I'm assuming you're referring to progesterone cream. I thinkfor oral use that the 250 mg dosage is more common since much moreprogesterone is available when it's absorbed through the skin.Yousaid, or I assumed you used the cream, but maybe I have that wrong.Fourth, if it's the cream, are you having problems absorbing itthrough the skin? Could that be why you need so much?Fifth, has taking so much de-sensitized the receptors so you simplyneed to keep up those levels? Lee said he found the high doses didn'thave any advantage and I got the impression maybe it simply made thereceptors less sensitive.Sixth, if you started the HRT before thyroid replacement, sincethyroid affects everything I would have expected your need to change.Unless something is wrong, you shouldn't need as much as you did before.Seventh, if it's an OTC cream, or even a compounded one, maybe it'sdeficient. OTC isn't guaranteed and compounders aren't perfect.Skipper

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[Guest guest]

Skipper, the research and experiences of women SINCE

Dr. Lee, has shown that there isn't any harm in taking

high dosages of Progesterone when a woman needs it.

The one and only risk is that the body will " down

regulate " the receptors (which both Progesterone and

Estrogen share) and estrogen can then take over those

receptors and bring about the estrogen dominance

condition.

However, this is RARE. It does NOT always happen, in

fact it hardly EVER happens. Why? Because a woman

doesn't take high dosages of Progesterone UNLESS her

body symptoms demand it for relief, in which case she

is actually getting exactly what her body needs with

those high dosages.

Women who don't need high dosages, don't take them.

It's as simple as that. Women who DO need the higher

dosages, take them.

Not to mention pregnant women who make 400 mg. per day

during their pregnancies - some of them over and over,

year after year after year. No problems at all from

it.

Most bio-id Drs. and pharmacists now aren't having any

problem with women taking higher dosages of

Progesterone if that's what the woman needs. Many have

wised up and go by the woman's symptoms rather than a

set dosage given by Lee or anyone else, which is

great.

It doesn't make sense to jail a woman into taking 20

mg. a day when her body and symptoms demand 200-300

mg. per day. What good does that do?? None.

Dr. Lee was a great pioneer, but of course he isn't

around to see the latest research nor the benefits

that women are deriving from taking these high levels

*when they need them*.

Another reason for taking high levels would be uterine

fibroids, cysts, and the like. Progesterone kills them

dead. Estrogen makes them grow.

Also, we have the Cortisol thing, which as you know

one of its precursors is Progesterone. Many women

become deficient in Cortisol especially as they hit

perimenopause and their Progesterone production slows

dramatically.

They find that high levels are what is needed to keep

all of these systems alleviated - perhaps the high

levels weren't needed when they were younger, but they

are now.

Women aren't just taking the high levels because they

can. They take it because that's what their symptoms

demand for relief, whether there is an underlying

cause or not.

Of course, as any underlying causes are resolved, the

dosage of P cream should be adjusted accordingly, and

that is just what women do. We don't particularly

ENJOY having to take these high dosages because it's a

pain in the rear, but it resolves our symptoms.

Even with underlying causes resolved many women never

get down to the 16 or 20 mg. 2x day that Dr. Lee

recommended, and that's just fine.

--- Gracia <circe@...> wrote:

>

> Skipper

> I get my transdermal hormones from a compounding

> pharmacist, who is fine with my doses, as is the

> doc. My compounding pharmacist is a babe! looks

> like Bridget Bardot! and is fun to talk to. She

> learned her stuff at College Pharmacy in CO.

> Actually my BB doc first Rxed them for me, but he

> gave me too little testosterone, which caused probs.

> My doses are actually the upper limit of

> recommended, everywhere except Dr. Lee and Pat! So

> I never thought I was taking too much. Really you

> should read Hormone Solutions by Hertoghe MD. He

> has a new book too for physicians, costs about $250.

>

> I would be thrilled if I could take DHEA and a dab

> of progesterone but I just can't. I am sure that

> iodine will help with my hormones. Sometimes I

> experiment to see if I can lower doses and it's

> always a disaster.

> I could not tolerate much Armour so I took 90mg

> for a few years but of course I desperately needed

> more. (only have half a thyroid gland). I could

> only get to proper dose of Armour, 240mg, when I got

> enough estradiol! (5mg/day) and cortef. I know

> some peeps will say that estrogen increases need for

> thyroid meds, but I think estrogen enabled me to

> utilize thyroid. I started with Armour but really

> wasn't well until I got ENOUGH sex hormones and

> cortef. This was confirmed for me by the 24 hr

> urine test from AAL.

> Gracia

>

>

> >

> >

> > I have never had an accurate hormone test,

> absolutely never, on

> blood or saliva. Only the 24 hr urine test from

> AAL lab correlated to

> what I needed and how I felt. And getting the

> hormones I needed/doses

> I needed made me feel well.

> > Uzzi Reiss' wife uses more than 250mg

> progestrone/day. Look at

> the ranges for hormones in Hertoghe's book Hormone

> Solutions. Look

> at the ranges for hormones on

> http://www.womensinternational.com

> > i will let you know when I can lower or

> eliminate some of the sex

> hormones I take, but so far, I cannot.

> > Gracia

>

> Gracia, I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong

> for you. My family

> would have gotten a lot better quicker if thyroid

> labs were a bit more

> meaningful than they are.

>

> However, I do wonder why someone would need 10

> times more progesterone

> than Dr. Lee recommended. I've not read the

> other hormone books

> you mentioned, and am not interested in doing so.

> They may suggest

> the approach you are taking, I don't know.

>

> It does leave some questions, though.

>

> One, why do you need testosterone when you are

> taking DHEA? If the

> DHEA isn't turning into testosterone what's it

> doing, just remaining DHEA?

>

> Two, why does it seem you have to supplement all

> the hormones

> progesterone turns into? Is there some kind of

> conversion problem you

> have turning progesterone into those hormones?

>

> Three, I'm assuming you're referring to

> progesterone cream. I think

> for oral use that the 250 mg dosage is more common

> since much more

> progesterone is available when it's absorbed

> through the skin.You

> said, or I assumed you used the cream, but maybe I

> have that wrong.

>

> Fourth, if it's the cream, are you having problems

> absorbing it

> through the skin? Could that be why you need so

> much?

>

> Fifth, has taking so much de-sensitized the

> receptors so you simply

> need to keep up those levels? Lee said he found

> the high doses didn't

> have any advantage and I got the impression maybe

> it simply made the

> receptors less sensitive.

>

> Sixth, if you started the HRT before thyroid

> replacement, since

> thyroid affects everything I would have expected

> your need to change.

> Unless something is wrong, you shouldn't need as

> much as you did before.

>

> Seventh, if it's an OTC cream, or even a

> compounded one, maybe it's

> deficient. OTC isn't guaranteed and compounders

> aren't perfect.

>

> Skipper

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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>

>

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__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynne, this is interesting news to me. Progesterone

has a half life of four months?

Every doctor and compounding pharmacist I've talked to

says it has a half life of 12-15 hours.

That's why we are to split whatever dosage we're

taking each day into two doses approx. 12 hours apart

to be sure we have 24 hour coverage.

How is Formby coming up with four months? I don't

understand, could you explain a bit please?

Thanks

--- Lynne234923@... wrote:

>> <<Fifth, has taking so much de-sensitized the

> receptors so you simply

> need to keep up those levels? Lee said he found the

> high doses didn't

> have any advantage and I got the impression maybe it

> simply made the

> receptors less sensitive.>>

> No, the reverse appears to happen. Progesterone

> builds up in the tissues.

> The HALF LIFE OF PROGESTERONE IS FOUR MONTHS. See

> the references/ documentation

> for this in Bent Formby, PhD's article on

> <rhythmicliving.com>. I personally

> checked each reference. Progesterone, according to

> Funahashi, enhance each

> other's effects.

>

> Lynne

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

Dr. Formby references the four month half-life in his article. I looked it up to verify it. I'll find the printed up reference this week and let you know. One of the ACAM doctors who uses progesterone in clinical practice also told me they were aware of progesterone build up-- and I'm sure he was talking from experience, not the medical research.

That split dosing thing may be a convention and not based on any science.

Lynne

In a message dated 10/9/2006 3:02:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ybr1959@... writes:

Every doctor and compounding pharmacist I've talked tosays it has a half life of 12-15 hours. That's why we are to split whatever dosage we'retaking each day into two doses approx. 12 hours apartto be sure we have 24 hour coverage.How is Formby coming up with four months? I don'tunderstand, could you explain a bit please?

[Guest guest]

>From: Lynne234923@...

>Skipper,

>

>I was going to stop responding to this thread when you described the saliva

>tests as " fact. "

>

>Neither test manufacturers or doctors would ever make this claim. At best,

>they would suggest the tests are guidelines that are not always reliable.

My statement was as follows -

" It does reveal absolute fact. At least if it's done right. If it's a

saliva test, as long as it's done properly, it tells the real amount

of progesterone, testosterone, cortisol, or thyroid hormone in the

saliva. That is an objective measure.

The problem is with the interpretation. "

Are you telling me that I'm wrong in the statement that a saliva tests

accurately measures the amount of a hormone in the saliva? Or, are you

agreeing with my concept that problems are in the interpretation because you

have to look at all factors including how the patient feels?

Certainly, if the doctors and manufacturers did not think that they could

accurately measure the progesterone or other hormones in the saliva, they

wouldn't bother collecting it, would they? (Not entirely a rhetorical

question as I know they do a lot of stupid things. But, I've never heard

anyone say the saliva tests couldn't even accurately measure the hormones

that were in the saliva.)

>---But as per your msg to Gracia, it appears even more correction is

>needed.

>

>1. There is widespread difference in the absorption of progesterone.

Thank you. That would explain why someone needs tenfold more than Dr. Lee

used to recommend. Of course, then I wouldn't expect progesterone levels on

the saliva test to be " sky high. " I also expect if someone didn't follow

Lee's suggesting of alternating location, or used locations he didn't

recommend because they weren't good sites for absorption, that they would

also absorb a lot less than they should.

>Skipper wrote:<<Two, why does it seem you have to supplement all the

>hormones

>progesterone turns into? Is there some kind of conversion problem you

>have turning progesterone into those hormones?>>

>

>Where did you get the idea progesterone converts in a predictable way?

I don't have the idea it does. Unfortunately, DHEA doesn't just turn into

tesosterone because it's a man taking it. But, if someone needs to take

progesterone, plus every hormone I'm aware of that it turns into, I'm

suspecting it's not converting or they don't need every hormone and don't

realize it. Some hormones aren't a problem. DHEA is alleged to not have a

feedback loop, so even if you supplement it doesn't lower production.

Cortisol, on the other hand does have a feedback loop.

Gracia did mention something about her voice turning deep one time.

Progesterone and DHEA can turn into testosterone. If she's getting more

testosterone than she thinks because of this treatment, doesn't care if her

voice deepens or if she gets facial hair, then it's really OK with me if she

takes testosterone. Doesn't mean I don't want to alert her to the

possibility.

If people feel good taking 250 mg of Progesterone, which is tenfold what Lee

recommended it's OK with me too. But because I've read about it, I want to

bring to their attention Lee thought it wasn't helpful, and may even be

detrimental. This is what Lee said -

http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Letters/letter38.htm

" The normal physiologic dose is 15-20 mg/day from day 12 to day 26 of the

monthly cycle. Many doctors make the mistake of thinking that, if a little

is good, more is better. That is not the case. I have no experience in using

high dose progesterone but it is likely that excessive dosing would cause

down-regulation of progesterone receptors. "

Furthermore, I admit I am not an expert in the use of female hormones. I

read about them during a period of time my wife was on HRT, and since her

need was only temporary until her thyroid problem was fixed for a long

enough period of time for the other hormones to recover, as happens in many

cases, I've no real motivation to learn more.

><<Fifth, has taking so much de-sensitized the receptors so you simply

>need to keep up those levels? Lee said he found the high doses didn't

>have any advantage and I got the impression maybe it simply made the

>receptors less sensitive.>>

>

>No, the reverse appears to happen. Progesterone builds up in the tissues.

>The HALF LIFE OF PROGESTERONE IS FOUR MONTHS. See the references/

>documentation

>for this in Bent Formby, PhD's article on <rhythmicliving.com>. I

>personally

>checked each reference. Progesterone, according to Funahashi, enhance each

>other's effects.

Then, as the above paragraph from Lee stated, the fact that excessive dosing

of progesterone doesn't cause down-regulation of the receptor's sensitivity

would be a surprise to him. Whether or not he would accept that science as

accurate, I don't know. As I said, I have no real motivation to learn

more, but I really don't know what the four month half life has to do with

sensitivity of receptors.

Whatever any female on this list wants to do with progesterone, DHEA,

testosterone, estrogen, and cortisol is OK with me, as long as it works for

them. I'm not saying their treatment doesn't work. I'm only saying they

should be rational about it and at least consider what Lee said.

I think if one is on HRT, and later go on thyroid hormone, if their need for

the hormones doesn't lessen, there's likely a problem that hasn't been

diagnosed yet.

And many diagnoses are difficult to make from labwork.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

Skipper wrote, quoting Lee:

<<<<http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Letters/letter38.htm

" The normal physiologic dose is 15-20 mg/day from day

12 to day 26 of

the

monthly cycle. Many doctors make the mistake of

thinking that, if a

little

is good, more is better. That is not the case. I have

no experience in

using

high dose progesterone but it is likely that excessive

dosing would

cause

down-regulation of progesterone receptors. " >>>>

Replies:

Lee completely leaves out here the other half of our

cycle when we are still making Progesterone as well.

He also states clearly that he has NO EXPERIENCE using

high dose Progesterone and then goes on to say " but it

is likely that excessive dosing would cause

down-regulation of Progesterone receptors. "

First of all, if he has no experience with high dose

Progesterone, then he can't possibly go on to say that

it is likely to cause down-regulating of Progesterone

receptors. Such a statement is pure guesswork on his

part, speculation. Not fact in the least.

Rather, the many women who have had to take high dose

Progesterone SINCE Lee was around should be studied to

see if this is indeed the case. And they have. And it

isn't, except very rarely.

Skipper continues:

<<<> Then, as the above paragraph from Lee stated, the

> fact that excessive dosing of progesterone doesn't

cause down-regulation of the receptor's sensitivity

> would be a surprise to him. Whether or not he would

> accept that science as accurate, I don't know.>>>

Again, Lee stated that he has NO EXPERIENCE with high

dose Progesterone. Therefore his statement that such

dosages would cause down-regulation of the receptors

is not in the least scientific at all for him to make

- so why should he be surprised at later research and

experience that shows it doesn't, except very rarely?

And how would he explain women who go for 9 months out

of the year pregnant making upwards of 400 mg. of

Progesterone per day, sometimes year in and year out,

and never have a problem either?

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

.. "

>

> NO what I said is that my voice was returning to the voice I used to have,

> which was sexy and husky. I really do know the symptoms of too much

> testosterone too.

Lots of conflicting info about hormones and testing, let's hope it gets

cleared up soon. I would like to look at Hertoghe's newest book for

physicians. Right now he is at a seminar in Paris.

http://euromedicom.wsn-consulting.com/congress/1159533659en_AAMS_.doc

(from ne in Paris)

This is the seminar I'm just assisting to . Love it !

It's totally international . There are docs from Malaysia , Iran , Germany ,

Turkey , Thailand , ...... ( pupils ) . Courses are in english .

Thierry allows me to assist to it , I can just walk in ! But it was a

miracle that I got hold of Thierry the first day . Once I had found him , I

was safe . But of course they didn't want to let me in at the entry .

Gracia

> Gracia did mention something about her voice turning deep one time.

> Progesterone and DHEA can turn into testosterone. If she's getting more

> testosterone than she thinks because of this treatment, doesn't care if

> her

> voice deepens or if she gets facial hair, then it's really OK with me if

> she

> takes testosterone. Doesn't mean I don't want to alert her to the

> possibility.

>

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