Re: Follow Up on the Constipation and Iodoral problem

[Guest guest]

I know I'm going to be in the minority on this statement, but that is a withdrawal symptom.  Cortisol has some good uses but I think the doses need to be kept smaller to avoid problems.  LinnOn Jul 20, 2006, at 1:42 AM, Lynn McGaha wrote:Tish.  Cortef gets advocated a lot on NTH now.  I've been on NTH for 3 years, and it's always been encouraged for people with adrenal insufficiency, although probably even more so now.  Times have a changed.  I've had issues about a few things there that no one seemed to want to hear what I was saying, but eventually I'm seeing some minds open up a little on those issues.  I suppose what you would disagree with now is the idea that if you can go an hour beyond the time of your usual HC dose and not get shaky, that you might look at reducing your HC dosage. Lynn  I wonder who you are talking about, but never mind.   I left the NTH group b/c when I first discovered cortef, NO ONE there wanted to hear about it.  And since then  I have encountered some erroneous info from there.  gracia> I've not heard that about cortisol output.

[Guest guest]

>From: Linn <linnmiller@...>

>

>I know I'm going to be in the minority on this statement, but that is a

>withdrawal symptom. Cortisol has some good uses but I think the doses

>need to be kept smaller to avoid problems.

Not addiction.

For those with 's Disease, they need to take their Cortef promptly.

For those with adrenals that put out adrenaline (I think mine is low), any

stress will cause adrenaline to be produced. I've talked to someone with

's, and they said they stayed in this frantic state because cortisol

is the " calming hormone. "

Without cortisol, if the adrenaline kicks in, cortisol keeps the blood sugar

up and allows it to lower gradually. Otherwise, you would have reactive

hypoglycemia.

For less than 's, the same is probably true, one just doesn't have as

desperate a need for HC.

In the beginning, I needed my Cortef promptly 4 times a day, and would take

it without water if necessary. My need isn't nearly as great now, because

I've probably built up a reserve, but if I stop it, I do notice after a few

days or a week that something is wrong. So, it's a gradual decline instead

of for the 's patient who collapses without it.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of us " low adrenal " patients actually do

have 's, it just hasn't been diagnosed.

Skipper

>

>Linn

>

>On Jul 20, 2006, at 1:42 AM, Lynn McGaha wrote:

>

>>

>>Tish. Cortef gets advocated a lot on NTH now. I've been on NTH for 3

>>years, and it's always been encouraged for people with adrenal

>>insufficiency, although probably even more so now. Times have a changed.

>> I've had issues about a few things there that no one seemed to want to

>>hear what I was saying, but eventually I'm seeing some minds open up a

>>little on those issues.

>>

>>I suppose what you would disagree with now is the idea that if you can go

>>an hour beyond the time of your usual HC dose and not get shaky, that you

>>might look at reducing your HC dosage.

>>

>>Lynn

>>

>>

>>

>>I wonder who you are talking about, but never mind. I left the NTH

>>group b/c when I first discovered cortef, NO ONE there wanted to hear

>>about it. And since then I have encountered some erroneous info from

>>there.

>>gracia

>> > I've not heard that about cortisol output.

>>

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[Guest guest]

Excue me for interrupting, but what is NTH?

Thanks,

Suzanne

>

> Tish. Cortef gets advocated a lot on NTH now. I've been on NTH

for 3 years, and it's always been encouraged for people with adrenal

insufficiency, although probably even more so now. Times have a

changed. I've had issues about a few things there that no one seemed

to want to hear what I was saying, but eventually I'm seeing some

minds open up a little on those issues.

>

> I suppose what you would disagree with now is the idea that if you

can go an hour beyond the time of your usual HC dose and not get

shaky, that you might look at reducing your HC dosage.

>

> Lynn

>

>

>

>

> I wonder who you are talking about, but never mind. I left

the NTH group b/c when I first discovered cortef, NO ONE there wanted

to hear about it. And since then I have encountered some erroneous

info from there.

> gracia

>

> > I've not heard that about cortisol output.

>

> The person that posted that on the Natural Thyroid Hormones

group is someone

> whose knowledge I highly respect, who has struggled mightily

with her own

> adrenal issues the last couple years, and researches these

issues. I'll try

> to get some links from her.

>

> > The other thing is I doubt that

> > taking 20 mg a day, is going to give you as much as your own

adrenals

> > producing 20 mg as there would be absorption issues.

>

> Excellent point.

>

> > Jeffries in " Safe Uses of Cortisol " claimed his

suggested dosage

> of

> > 5 mg 4 times per day would not suppress the HPA axis.

>

> I haven't read Jeffries' book but I have read Dr.

's Adrenal

> Fatigue, and also Dr. Peatfield's material, and I am aware they

all say 5 mg

> QID doesn't cause suppression. Some people on NTH feel they did

have

> adrenal suppression at that dose.

>

> > Since my ACTH has

> > been high at times in spite of taking HC, I believe that to

be true. If

> > your pituitary is producing ACTH, then it's asking for more

cortisol from

> > your adrenals, and there is no adrenal shut down. (Which

seems to imply

> > that if you're on HC, and your ACTH is tested, and you are

producing an

> > amount in the normal range that your adrenals are not being

suppressed.)

>

> I think all that tells you is that the pituitary has not been

suppressed.

>

> > Seems like I needed more Armour when I went on HC also.

>

> Good to know that.

>

> > If you get either too little or too much cortisol, the

thyroid isn't going

> > to work as well. Too little cortisol, the body simply

excretes T4 instead

> > of turning it into active T3. Too much cortisol and it turns

too much T4

> > into inactive rT3.

>

> In my case, before starting on HC, my FT3 was 7.1 (top of range

is 4.2) and

> my T4 was 12.4 (top of range is 12.0), with no hyper symptoms.

So I think

> my T3 and T4 were just staying in the blood and not getting

taken up by the

> thyroid hormone receptors. I would definitely be in the low

cortisol

> category, and my lab test showed plenty of T3.

>

> > It seems as though calcium can cause constipation if I

remember. Do you

> get

> > a lot of sunshine with that, or at least a Vitamin D

supplement so you can

> > utilize that calcium?

>

> I get 2000 mg. Vit D from Blue Ice cod liver oil. But I've been

on that

> amount of supplemental calcium for 1 1/2 yrs. with no

constipation, so I

> don't think that's the problem.

>

> > Also, I assume you know the minerals, like iron, calcium,

magnesium, zinc

> > all interfere with the aborption of thyroid meds and should

be taken as

> far

> > away from the thyroid dosage as possible.

> >

> > Skipper

>

> I take my thyroid sublingually 4 times a day, before meals and

at bedtime,

> and my supplements 3 times a day, after meals. One benefit of

taking it

> sublingually is that

> there's not supposed to be any interference from whatever goes

in your

> stomach, so the usual timing constraints of taking other

supplements is no

> longer an issue.

>

> Lynn

>

[Guest guest]

I see NO drawbacks to the proper use of cortef, as Jefferies recommends. I was so miserable on 15mg, so good on 20mg--no need to suffer on too little.

gracia

I know I'm going to be in the minority on this statement, but that is a withdrawal symptom. Cortisol has some good uses but I think the doses need to be kept smaller to avoid problems.

Linn

On Jul 20, 2006, at 1:42 AM, Lynn McGaha wrote:

Tish. Cortef gets advocated a lot on NTH now. I've been on NTH for 3 years, and it's always been encouraged for people with adrenal insufficiency, although probably even more so now. Times have a changed. I've had issues about a few things there that no one seemed to want to hear what I was saying, but eventually I'm seeing some minds open up a little on those issues.

I suppose what you would disagree with now is the idea that if you can go an hour beyond the time of your usual HC dose and not get shaky, that you might look at reducing your HC dosage.

Lynn

I wonder who you are talking about, but never mind. I left the NTH group b/c when I first discovered cortef, NO ONE there wanted to hear about it. And since then I have encountered some erroneous info from there.

gracia

> I've not heard that about cortisol output.

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[Guest guest]

Lynn,

Be very careful about taking so much Calcium. If you think you must, be sure to also supplement with Silica. Calcium does not build bone collagen (80%) of normal bone mass and what gives bone its flexibility--Silica does.

Rick Wagner

-----Original Message-----From: Lynn McGaha [mailto:lmcgaha@...]Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:35 PMiodine Subject: Re: Re: Follow Up on the Constipation and Iodoral problem

> That is a lot of calcium to take if you also eat dairy. You can get toomuch> Calcium. Calcium is known to constipate some people in high dosages. High> calcium depletes magnesium also. The mixture of magnesium you are takingis> not the most absorbable forms. I would not rule out mag issues.From http://www.mamashealth.com/nutrition/womcal.asp: "The NationalInstitute of Health recommends that, in addition to a healthy diet, adultwomen have a daily supplemental calcium intake of 1000 to 1200 mg beforemenopause and 1300 to 1500 mg after menopause."The supplements I am taking contain 1000 mg. elemental calcium, frommicrocrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite complex and calcium citrate, and 266mg. calcium from calcium carbonate, for a total of 1266 mg. calcium. Theycontain 860 mg. magnesium from magnesium hydrolyzed rice protein chelate & Mg citrate. I'm surprised that you say these are not the most absorbableforms, since I've read that chelated magnesium and magnesium citrate aresome of the better forms of magnesium.I drink one cup of kefir per day, which contains around 300 mg. calcium. SoI am well within the NIH recommendation for calcium, and most otherguidelines say to get around 1200 mg. of supplemental calcium, in additionto the diet. Do you have sources for a lower recommendation? I've been onthese particular supplements for 1 1/2 yrs, and constipation was not anissue previously. Are you of the opinion that iodine increases the need formagnesium?Lynn

[Guest guest]

> Excue me for interrupting, but what is NTH?

> Thanks,

> Suzanne

NTH = Natural Thyroid Hormones group.

Lynn

>

> >

> > Tish. Cortef gets advocated a lot on NTH now. I've been on NTH

> for 3 years, and it's always been encouraged for people with adrenal

> insufficiency, although probably even more so now. Times have a

> changed. I've had issues about a few things there that no one seemed

> to want to hear what I was saying, but eventually I'm seeing some

> minds open up a little on those issues.

> >

> > I suppose what you would disagree with now is the idea that if you

> can go an hour beyond the time of your usual HC dose and not get

> shaky, that you might look at reducing your HC dosage.

> >

> > Lynn

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I wonder who you are talking about, but never mind. I left

> the NTH group b/c when I first discovered cortef, NO ONE there wanted

> to hear about it. And since then I have encountered some erroneous

> info from there.

> > gracia

> >

> > > I've not heard that about cortisol output.

> >

> > The person that posted that on the Natural Thyroid Hormones

> group is someone

> > whose knowledge I highly respect, who has struggled mightily

> with her own

> > adrenal issues the last couple years, and researches these

> issues. I'll try

> > to get some links from her.

> >

> > > The other thing is I doubt that

> > > taking 20 mg a day, is going to give you as much as your own

> adrenals

> > > producing 20 mg as there would be absorption issues.

> >

> > Excellent point.

> >

> > > Jeffries in " Safe Uses of Cortisol " claimed his

> suggested dosage

> > of

> > > 5 mg 4 times per day would not suppress the HPA axis.

> >

> > I haven't read Jeffries' book but I have read Dr.

> 's Adrenal

> > Fatigue, and also Dr. Peatfield's material, and I am aware they

> all say 5 mg

> > QID doesn't cause suppression. Some people on NTH feel they did

> have

> > adrenal suppression at that dose.

> >

> > > Since my ACTH has

> > > been high at times in spite of taking HC, I believe that to

> be true. If

> > > your pituitary is producing ACTH, then it's asking for more

> cortisol from

> > > your adrenals, and there is no adrenal shut down. (Which

> seems to imply

> > > that if you're on HC, and your ACTH is tested, and you are

> producing an

> > > amount in the normal range that your adrenals are not being

> suppressed.)

> >

> > I think all that tells you is that the pituitary has not been

> suppressed.

> >

> > > Seems like I needed more Armour when I went on HC also.

> >

> > Good to know that.

> >

> > > If you get either too little or too much cortisol, the

> thyroid isn't going

> > > to work as well. Too little cortisol, the body simply

> excretes T4 instead

> > > of turning it into active T3. Too much cortisol and it turns

> too much T4

> > > into inactive rT3.

> >

> > In my case, before starting on HC, my FT3 was 7.1 (top of range

> is 4.2) and

> > my T4 was 12.4 (top of range is 12.0), with no hyper symptoms.

> So I think

> > my T3 and T4 were just staying in the blood and not getting

> taken up by the

> > thyroid hormone receptors. I would definitely be in the low

> cortisol

> > category, and my lab test showed plenty of T3.

> >

> > > It seems as though calcium can cause constipation if I

> remember. Do you

> > get

> > > a lot of sunshine with that, or at least a Vitamin D

> supplement so you can

> > > utilize that calcium?

> >

> > I get 2000 mg. Vit D from Blue Ice cod liver oil. But I've been

> on that

> > amount of supplemental calcium for 1 1/2 yrs. with no

> constipation, so I

> > don't think that's the problem.

> >

> > > Also, I assume you know the minerals, like iron, calcium,

> magnesium, zinc

> > > all interfere with the aborption of thyroid meds and should

> be taken as

> > far

> > > away from the thyroid dosage as possible.

> > >

> > > Skipper

> >

> > I take my thyroid sublingually 4 times a day, before meals and

> at bedtime,

> > and my supplements 3 times a day, after meals. One benefit of

> taking it

> > sublingually is that

> > there's not supposed to be any interference from whatever goes

> in your

> > stomach, so the usual timing constraints of taking other

> supplements is no

> > longer an issue.

> >

> > Lynn

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> >From: " Lynn McGaha " <lmcgaha@...>

> >I haven't read Jeffries' book but I have read Dr. 's Adrenal

> >Fatigue, and also Dr. Peatfield's material, and I am aware they all say 5

> >mg

> >QID doesn't cause suppression. Some people on NTH feel they did have

> >adrenal suppression at that dose.

>

> Nobody talks about weight in regard to dosage. I don't know if that means

> it doesn't matter. It could be I can take more than a 110 pound female

> without having my adrenals suppressed.

Good point. It doesn't seem like weight doesn't have much bearing on how

much supplemental thyroid is needed, but adrenals might be different.

> >I think all that tells you is that the pituitary has not been suppressed.

>

> When they talk of HC suppressing the adrenals, it means one is taking an

> amount large enough the pituitary doesn't think the adrenals need to

produce

> any HC. So, that is the real concern.

> The adrenals can be suppressed because they're weak and unable to

function.

> This is not the fear in giving HC. In that case, they simply are unable

to

> produce.

I had only read of reference to the adrenals becoming perhaps permanently

suppressed. So you're saying that you also need to be concerned about the

pituitary also becoming suppressed?

> >I take my thyroid sublingually 4 times a day, before meals and at

bedtime,

> >and my supplements 3 times a day, after meals. One benefit of taking it

> >sublingually is that

> >there's not supposed to be any interference from whatever goes in your

> >stomach, so the usual timing constraints of taking other supplements is

no

> >longer an issue.

>

> Some things are formulated to take sublingually. When you take something

> that way not formulated for it, I don't know whether they same statement

is

> true. Maybe I just don't understand sublingual well enough.

> Skipper

I have read that Synthroid must be swallowed because it needs the stomach

acid to activate it. Since the active portion of dessicated thyroid is

supposed to be identical to what our bodies make, maybe it doesn't need to

be transformed to be useful, and thus it can still get into our bloodstream

when taken sublingually. I have taken my Time Cap Labs dessicated thyroid

(generic Armour) sublingually for 1 1/2 years, and my T4 and FT3 are both

above range. I think that's a good indicator that it's getting taken up.

And I love the freedom it gives me to take multiple thyroid and calcium

doses throughout the day.

I think many people on Natural Thyroid Hormones are taking Armour

sublingually. Several people have reported that they seemed to feel more

hypo taking it sublingually than swallowing it, and they've given up taking

it sublingually. Maybe there are unknown factors that influence which is

more effective.

Lynn

[Guest guest]

Rick,

The MCHC (microcrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite complex) I am taking says it has silicon (from M.C.H.C) in it, and I am getting 76 mcg. a day.

The bottle says the amount of MCHC I am taking supplies 100% of the R.D. I. for calcium, 1000 mg. of elemental calcium, 50% from MCHC and 50% from calcium citrate. (What I listed below for calcium source was from what I took before I switched to MCHC a few months ago.) I just noticed for the first time that the bottle had a decimal point in front of the calcium carbonate amount, so I am only taking 2.66 mg. of calcium carbonate. Sorry to have stated it wrong.

How much silica do you recommend? Do you still think I'm taking so much calcium (1003 mg.)? If so, why are the usual recommendations wrong? I am menopausal and have osteoporosis in my hips and osteopenia in my spine. My supplement program was customized for me based on hair analysis by a M.D. who confines his practice to hair analysis. Thanks for your input.

Lynn

Lynn,

Be very careful about taking so much Calcium. If you think you must, be sure to also supplement with Silica. Calcium does not build bone collagen (80%) of normal bone mass and what gives bone its flexibility--Silica does.

Rick Wagner

-----Original Message-----From: Lynn McGaha [mailto:lmcgaha@...]Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:35 PMiodine Subject: Re: Re: Follow Up on the Constipation and Iodoral problem

> That is a lot of calcium to take if you also eat dairy. You can get toomuch> Calcium. Calcium is known to constipate some people in high dosages. High> calcium depletes magnesium also. The mixture of magnesium you are takingis> not the most absorbable forms. I would not rule out mag issues.From http://www.mamashealth.com/nutrition/womcal.asp: "The NationalInstitute of Health recommends that, in addition to a healthy diet, adultwomen have a daily supplemental calcium intake of 1000 to 1200 mg beforemenopause and 1300 to 1500 mg after menopause."The supplements I am taking contain 1000 mg. elemental calcium, frommicrocrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite complex and calcium citrate, and 266mg. calcium from calcium carbonate, for a total of 1266 mg. calcium. Theycontain 860 mg. magnesium from magnesium hydrolyzed rice protein chelate & Mg citrate. I'm surprised that you say these are not the most absorbableforms, since I've read that chelated magnesium and magnesium citrate aresome of the better forms of magnesium.I drink one cup of kefir per day, which contains around 300 mg. calcium. SoI am well within the NIH recommendation for calcium, and most otherguidelines say to get around 1200 mg. of supplemental calcium, in additionto the diet. Do you have sources for a lower recommendation? I've been onthese particular supplements for 1 1/2 yrs, and constipation was not anissue previously. Are you of the opinion that iodine increases the need formagnesium?Lynn

[Guest guest]

>From: " Lynn McGaha " <lmcgaha@...>

>Good point. It doesn't seem like weight doesn't have much bearing on how

>much supplemental thyroid is needed, but adrenals might be different.

Weight does matter even with thyroid. Synthroid states the expected

replacement dosage to be 2.2 mcg per kg. (The 2.2 might be wrong, but they

do state it in a per kg amount, so that implies it is expected to matter.)

>I had only read of reference to the adrenals becoming perhaps permanently

>suppressed. So you're saying that you also need to be concerned about the

>pituitary also becoming suppressed?

No, I'm saying with thyroid medication, the pituitary produces TSH. If you

give someone a large dose of thyroid meds, it suppresses the TSH.

Suppressing the TSH shuts down thyroid production of thyroid hormones. Some

people do better on replacement dosages with a suppressed thyroid.

For the adrenals, the pituitary produces ACTH which tells it to produce

cortisol (and aldosterone and probably some other hormones.) Anyway, when

you give large doses of corticosteroids (like the 80 mg of Prednisone that

seems the favorite of doctors for many reasons), it stops pituitary

production of ACTH. This in turns shuts off adrenal production of cortisol.

So, when corticosteroids shuts down the pituitary (in this case the HPA,

hypothalamus, pitutary, adrenal axis is usually referred to) it turns off

adrenal production of cortisol. This is what is meant by adrenal

suppression in corticosteroid therapy.

Most people can tolerate 20 mg of hydrocortisone without suppressing the

adrenal production. (Again, this means your ACTH isn't suppressed.)

Some people think if your adrenals are suppressed for a long time, they

won't come back. I don't know if that's true or not. I've heard of people

taking thyroid meds for years, finding they can go off, and their thyroid

production picks back up. Whether or not the adrenals actually atrophy and

can't produce, I can't say.

There may be other reasons they can't work, like mercury which is an adrenal

toxin, or a virus like TB which destroys the adrenals. Maybe other viruses

can do damage too.

>I have read that Synthroid must be swallowed because it needs the stomach

>acid to activate it. Since the active portion of dessicated thyroid is

>supposed to be identical to what our bodies make, maybe it doesn't need to

>be transformed to be useful, and thus it can still get into our bloodstream

>when taken sublingually. I have taken my Time Cap Labs dessicated thyroid

>(generic Armour) sublingually for 1 1/2 years, and my T4 and FT3 are both

>above range.

You're probably right. I assume it it's in your blood, it also is in the

cells in adequate amounts and if not you would still have hypothyroid

symptoms.

>I think many people on Natural Thyroid Hormones are taking Armour

>sublingually. Several people have reported that they seemed to feel more

>hypo taking it sublingually than swallowing it, and they've given up taking

>it sublingually. Maybe there are unknown factors that influence which is

>more effective.

It could mean they need higher doses, and if you only feel good when your

levels are above normal, it may also mean labs need to be elevated beyond

what some doctors are willing to risk.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

> Weight does matter even with thyroid. Synthroid states the expected

> replacement dosage to be 2.2 mcg per kg. (The 2.2 might be wrong, but

they

> do state it in a per kg amount, so that implies it is expected to matter.)

Yeah, someone Like Synthroid might say the dosage is weight dependent, but I

don't think their product or dosage recommendations have much relevance to

optimal thyroid supplementation. I was on that junk for 4 years at that

recommended dosage, and I never felt worse in my life. I did read one

thyroid expert (couldn't tell you who) who commented that optimal dosage

didn't seem to be related to weight. And the dosages people report being

well on at Natural Thyroid Hormones don't seem to be a function of weight.

I think there a great number of factors which influence how high a dose is

needed, and weight may be just one of many factors.

> >I think many people on Natural Thyroid Hormones are taking Armour

> >sublingually. Several people have reported that they seemed to feel more

> >hypo taking it sublingually than swallowing it, and they've given up

taking

> >it sublingually. Maybe there are unknown factors that influence which is

> >more effective.

>

> It could mean they need higher doses, and if you only feel good when your

> levels are above normal, it may also mean labs need to be elevated beyond

> what some doctors are willing to risk.

> Skipper

One person says she takes a certain dose orally, say 5 grains, divided

throughout the day, and she feels good. When she's taken the same dose

sublingually, she felt hypo. You could interpret that to mean she needs a

higher dose for sublingual doses, which is contradictory to the claim made

that sublingual dosing is more effective because it gets in the bloodstream

more efficiently than going through the digestive process. Maybe those of

us that take it sublingually are needing slightly more than we would if we

swallowed it. I enjoy the freedom to multi-dose everything I'm taking,

which would be much more difficult if I had to wait 4 hours between thyroid

and calcium, so I would continue taking it sublingually even if that were

proven.

Lynn

Lynn

[Guest guest]

Hypothyroidism itself can cause magnesium deficiency. Thyroid disease in

general interferes with normal absorption, retention and utilization of

Calcium, magnesium and other minerals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=9494058 & query_hl=34 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

My severe hypothyroid symptoms had me on beta-blockers and at the time in a

seemingly unrelated health issue I was in physical therapy for nerve and muscle

problems. I had to leave my job in management at Nickelodeon (Sponge Bob!). I

did eventually discovered a magnesium deficiency that was so bad that I had to

have IV's to recover since I could not correct it with 3 months of 1200mg daily

supplementing of the most highly absorbable forms of mag. I now know I have

had a life long mag deficiency since those and so many other problems have

cleared up with supplementing; including anxiety, prostate pain, calcification

of soft tissues... really, the list goes on and on. My chest X-rays use to be

covered with spots showing calcium deposits for the last 15 years. In the

absence of adequate magnesium excess calcium is deposited in soft tissues. The

spots are now gone from my X-rays.

My research was for myself so I did not keep bookmarks but rather tried to put

the puzzle pieces together in my head. Here are some references that deal with

calcium and its balance with other minerals. Calcium does not necessarily do

what it is supposed to do especially when magnesium deficiency exists. I cut

out all question of my own needs and my reliance on often conflicting data and

just have regular RBC (red blood cell) analysis and find that I do not have to

supplement calcium at all for my cells to show adequate levels of calcium. On

the other hand maintaining magnesium levels that even approach normal, being

hypothyroid or not, is difficult. IMO, hair analysis is sometimes misread or

an inaccurate way to determine the need for minerals and vitamins.

http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/High%20Minerals185.htm

Calcium

The World Health Organization recommends 500 mg/day for children and 800 mg/day

for adults. Professors such as Willard Willett, chairman of the Harvard

Nutrition Department, T. Colin , professor emeritus of nutrition at

Cornell University, and n Nestle, chairman of nutrition at NYU, believe

that these current RDA’s are too high and are not supported by the evidence.

http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/StrongBones.html

Calcium/Magnesium Imbalances

Effect of Increased Calcium Intakes on Magnesium. To compensate for the loss of

Ca from osteoporotic bones, oral treatment with Ca is common. Rarely considered

is the effect of high Ca intakes on Mg requirements [5-7], or the importance of

Mg in maintaining normal bone matrix [5,9,12]. High dietary Ca/Mg ratios

interfere with Mg absorption (Figure 1), partially because Ca and Mg share a

common intestinal absorption pathway [217,241,242]. Metabolic studies have

shown interference by high dietary Ca with Mg retention of normal young women

[1,82], and of patients with osteopathies (Figure 2) [217,243-245].

http://www.mgwater.com/estrogen.shtml

This study demonstrates the profound effect of Mg depletion on the trabecular

compartment of bone, which, with its greater surface area and turnover, was

more responsive to Mg depletion than cortical bone in the appendicular skeleton

of the mouse.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=155646

Dr. Brownstein (and/or Dr. Abrhams) recommends 1200mg of magnesium while

mega-dosing Iodine. If you have thyroid disease AND are taking high calcium

and then you toss iodine into the mix... my sense is that constipation (among

other things) might result because of inadequate magnesium intake perhaps

coupled with too much calcium.

Here is a short test that helps determine magnesium deficiency.

http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/081501.htm

--- Lynn McGaha <lmcgaha@...> wrote:

> Rick,

> The MCHC (microcrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite complex) I am taking says

> it has silicon (from M.C.H.C) in it, and I am getting 76 mcg. a day.

>

> The bottle says the amount of MCHC I am taking supplies 100% of the R.D. I.

> for calcium, 1000 mg. of elemental calcium, 50% from MCHC and 50% from

> calcium citrate. (What I listed below for calcium source was from what I

> took before I switched to MCHC a few months ago.) I just noticed for the

> first time that the bottle had a decimal point in front of the calcium

> carbonate amount, so I am only taking 2.66 mg. of calcium carbonate. Sorry

> to have stated it wrong.

>

> How much silica do you recommend? Do you still think I'm taking so much

> calcium (1003 mg.)? If so, why are the usual recommendations wrong? I am

> menopausal and have osteoporosis in my hips and osteopenia in my spine. My

> supplement program was customized for me based on hair analysis by a M.D. who

> confines his practice to hair analysis. Thanks for your input.

>

> Lynn

>

>

>

>

> Lynn,

> Be very careful about taking so much Calcium. If you think you must, be

> sure to also supplement with Silica. Calcium does not build bone collagen

> (80%) of normal bone mass and what gives bone its flexibility--Silica does.

> Rick Wagner

> Re: Re: Follow Up on the Constipation and Iodoral

> problem

>

>

> > That is a lot of calcium to take if you also eat dairy. You can get too

> much

> > Calcium. Calcium is known to constipate some people in high dosages.

> High

> > calcium depletes magnesium also. The mixture of magnesium you are

> taking

> is

> > not the most absorbable forms. I would not rule out mag issues.

>

>

> From http://www.mamashealth.com/nutrition/womcal.asp: " The National

> Institute of Health recommends that, in addition to a healthy diet, adult

> women have a daily supplemental calcium intake of 1000 to 1200 mg before

> menopause and 1300 to 1500 mg after menopause. "

>

> The supplements I am taking contain 1000 mg. elemental calcium, from

> microcrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite complex and calcium citrate, and

> 266

> mg. calcium from calcium carbonate, for a total of 1266 mg. calcium. They

> contain 860 mg. magnesium from magnesium hydrolyzed rice protein chelate

> &

> Mg citrate. I'm surprised that you say these are not the most absorbable

> forms, since I've read that chelated magnesium and magnesium citrate are

> some of the better forms of magnesium.

>

> I drink one cup of kefir per day, which contains around 300 mg. calcium.

> So

> I am well within the NIH recommendation for calcium, and most other

> guidelines say to get around 1200 mg. of supplemental calcium, in

> addition

> to the diet. Do you have sources for a lower recommendation? I've been on

> these particular supplements for 1 1/2 yrs, and constipation was not an

> issue previously. Are you of the opinion that iodine increases the need

> for

> magnesium?

>

> Lynn

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>From: <kennio@...>

>My severe hypothyroid symptoms had me on beta-blockers

Beta blockers interfere with T4 to T3 conversion, so they make people more

hypothyroid.

Skipper

_________________________________________________________________

Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!

http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

I refused to take them on a regular basis against doctors orders. I only took

them when I was convinced that my heart was going to seize and stop beating.

My hypothyroid brother has been taking calcium channel blockers for years along

with antidepressants. I know he needs magnesium but he won't listen.

Magnesium is natures calcium channel blocker.

--- Skipper Beers <lsb149@...> wrote:

> >From: <kennio@...>

>

> >My severe hypothyroid symptoms had me on beta-blockers

>

> Beta blockers interfere with T4 to T3 conversion, so they make people more

> hypothyroid.

>

> Skipper

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!

> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Lynn,

I recommend at least 300-400 mgs of Silica per day in a liquid format. I don't believe Calcium does anything to maintain or improve bone mass. I believe the usual recommendations are wrong because most practioners are looking at what should be an obvious solution-calcium- when in fact, it isn't working. The information on silica is out there, it just isn't well publicized and few are looking, thinking they are safe with calcium. No women, or men for that matter, in my family or whom I counsel with on nutrition take calcium. They all have strong bones and/or are reversing their osteopenia or osteoporosis. They all take silica. You body cannot manage all the calcium you are giving it. I would be happy to discuss this concept with your MD.

Rick Wagner

-----Original Message-----From: Lynn McGaha [mailto:lmcgaha@...]Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 3:48 PMiodine Subject: Re: Re: Follow Up on the Constipation and Iodoral problem

Rick,

The MCHC (microcrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite complex) I am taking says it has silicon (from M.C.H.C) in it, and I am getting 76 mcg. a day.

The bottle says the amount of MCHC I am taking supplies 100% of the R.D. I. for calcium, 1000 mg. of elemental calcium, 50% from MCHC and 50% from calcium citrate. (What I listed below for calcium source was from what I took before I switched to MCHC a few months ago.) I just noticed for the first time that the bottle had a decimal point in front of the calcium carbonate amount, so I am only taking 2.66 mg. of calcium carbonate. Sorry to have stated it wrong.

How much silica do you recommend? Do you still think I'm taking so much calcium (1003 mg.)? If so, why are the usual recommendations wrong? I am menopausal and have osteoporosis in my hips and osteopenia in my spine. My supplement program was customized for me based on hair analysis by a M.D. who confines his practice to hair analysis. Thanks for your input.

Lynn

Lynn,

Be very careful about taking so much Calcium. If you think you must, be sure to also supplement with Silica. Calcium does not build bone collagen (80%) of normal bone mass and what gives bone its flexibility--Silica does.

Rick Wagner

-----Original Message-----From: Lynn McGaha [mailto:lmcgaha@...]Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:35 PMiodine Subject: Re: Re: Follow Up on the Constipation and Iodoral problem

> That is a lot of calcium to take if you also eat dairy. You can get toomuch> Calcium. Calcium is known to constipate some people in high dosages. High> calcium depletes magnesium also. The mixture of magnesium you are takingis> not the most absorbable forms. I would not rule out mag issues.From http://www.mamashealth.com/nutrition/womcal.asp: "The NationalInstitute of Health recommends that, in addition to a healthy diet, adultwomen have a daily supplemental calcium intake of 1000 to 1200 mg beforemenopause and 1300 to 1500 mg after menopause."The supplements I am taking contain 1000 mg. elemental calcium, frommicrocrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite complex and calcium citrate, and 266mg. calcium from calcium carbonate, for a total of 1266 mg. calcium. Theycontain 860 mg. magnesium from magnesium hydrolyzed rice protein chelate & Mg citrate. I'm surprised that you say these are not the most absorbableforms, since I've read that chelated magnesium and magnesium citrate aresome of the better forms of magnesium.I drink one cup of kefir per day, which contains around 300 mg. calcium. SoI am well within the NIH recommendation for calcium, and most otherguidelines say to get around 1200 mg. of supplemental calcium, in additionto the diet. Do you have sources for a lower recommendation? I've been onthese particular supplements for 1 1/2 yrs, and constipation was not anissue previously. Are you of the opinion that iodine increases the need formagnesium?Lynn

[Guest guest]

I believe the American Dairy council is responsible for most of this

misinformation and the selling of high calcium to women. I mean now supposedly

it makes you lose weight of all things.

--- Rick Wagner <rickwagner@...> wrote:

> Lynn,

> I recommend at least 300-400 mgs of Silica per day in a liquid format. I

> don't believe Calcium does anything to maintain or improve bone mass. I

> believe the usual recommendations are wrong because most practioners are

> looking at what should be an obvious solution-calcium- when in fact, it

> isn't working. The information on silica is out there, it just isn't well

> publicized and few are looking, thinking they are safe with calcium. No

> women, or men for that matter, in my family or whom I counsel with on

> nutrition take calcium. They all have strong bones and/or are reversing

> their osteopenia or osteoporosis. They all take silica. You body cannot

> manage all the calcium you are giving it. I would be happy to discuss this

> concept with your MD.

> Rick Wagner

> Re: Re: Follow Up on the Constipation and Iodoral

> problem

>

>

> > That is a lot of calcium to take if you also eat dairy. You can get

> too

> much

> > Calcium. Calcium is known to constipate some people in high dosages.

> High

> > calcium depletes magnesium also. The mixture of magnesium you are

> taking

> is

> > not the most absorbable forms. I would not rule out mag issues.

>

>

> From http://www.mamashealth.com/nutrition/womcal.asp: " The National

> Institute of Health recommends that, in addition to a healthy diet,

> adult

> women have a daily supplemental calcium intake of 1000 to 1200 mg

> before

> menopause and 1300 to 1500 mg after menopause. "

>

> The supplements I am taking contain 1000 mg. elemental calcium, from

> microcrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite complex and calcium citrate,

> and 266

> mg. calcium from calcium carbonate, for a total of 1266 mg. calcium.

> They

> contain 860 mg. magnesium from magnesium hydrolyzed rice protein

> chelate &

> Mg citrate. I'm surprised that you say these are not the most

> absorbable

> forms, since I've read that chelated magnesium and magnesium citrate

> are

> some of the better forms of magnesium.

>

> I drink one cup of kefir per day, which contains around 300 mg.

> calcium. So

> I am well within the NIH recommendation for calcium, and most other

> guidelines say to get around 1200 mg. of supplemental calcium, in

> addition

> to the diet. Do you have sources for a lower recommendation? I've been

> on

> these particular supplements for 1 1/2 yrs, and constipation was not

> an

> issue previously. Are you of the opinion that iodine increases the

> need for

> magnesium?

>

> Lynn

>

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

You posted links to some very informative articles. Took me a while to read

them all. Thanks for the time it took you to put them all together. My

comments are interspersed below.

> Hypothyroidism itself can cause magnesium deficiency. Thyroid disease in

> general interferes with normal absorption, retention and utilization of

> Calcium, magnesium and other minerals.

>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=9494058 & query_hl=34 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

Since they induced hypothyroidism by giving an iodine-blocker, I am more

convinced that the problems they report are due to iodine deficiency rather

than what would be associated with true hypothyroidism. They may be

reflective of hypo, I just don't think their experimental design proved it.

But if the effects of iodine deficiency are the same as the effects of

blocking iodine, this sheds light on what kinds of problems would result.

> My severe hypothyroid symptoms had me on beta-blockers and at the time in

a

> seemingly unrelated health issue I was in physical therapy for nerve and

muscle

> problems.

This sounds like something more typically found with hyperthyroid. You said

you have Hashi's, so is it possible you were in a hyper swing when you had

these problems?

> did eventually discovered a magnesium deficiency that was so bad that I

had to

> have IV's to recover since I could not correct it with 3 months of 1200mg

daily

> supplementing of the most highly absorbable forms of mag. I now know I

have

> had a life long mag deficiency since those and so many other problems have

> cleared up with supplementing; including anxiety, prostate pain,

calcification

> of soft tissues... really, the list goes on and on. My chest X-rays use

to be

> covered with spots showing calcium deposits for the last 15 years. In the

> absence of adequate magnesium excess calcium is deposited in soft tissues.

The

> spots are now gone from my X-rays.

Sounds like magnesium was something of a magic bullet for you. That's quite

impressive that your calcification spots cleared up.

>

> My research was for myself so I did not keep bookmarks but rather tried to

put

> the puzzle pieces together in my head. Here are some references that deal

with

> calcium and its balance with other minerals. Calcium does not necessarily

do

> what it is supposed to do especially when magnesium deficiency exists. I

cut

> out all question of my own needs and my reliance on often conflicting data

and

> just have regular RBC (red blood cell) analysis and find that I do not

have to

> supplement calcium at all for my cells to show adequate levels of calcium.

On

> the other hand maintaining magnesium levels that even approach normal,

being

> hypothyroid or not, is difficult. IMO, hair analysis is sometimes misread

or

> an inaccurate way to determine the need for minerals and vitamins.

> http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/High%20Minerals185.htm

Agreed, hair analysis can be misleading if not performed by a high quality

lab, and if supplementation is given strictly for minerals one tests

deficient in, it is a poor way to correct imbalances. I had read this

article before, and it's interesting that you post it (or maybe you had some

suspicion of this already), because the author of the article, Dr. Larry

, is the same person that analyzed my ARL Laboratories test results

and used them to recommend a supplement, diet, and lifestyle program for me.

I take supplements made by ARL. I had off the chart levels of calcium and

magnesium 15 years ago, before I was taking any supplements. My calcium is

still quite high now, magnesium is elevated some, Ca/Mg ratio is high. With

the high calcium and magnesium wasting that occurs in thyroid deficiency, I

don't know if excess calcium is responsible for that result or not.

I intend to forward the Well Being Journal article below on to Dr.

and see if it changes his mind about calcium and magnesium recommendations.

The ideas of supplementing silica/silicon and no calcium/high magnesium were

new to me and this article has me thinking. I thought I was doing

everything right, diet, exercise, supplements, and I still lost 11% bone

density in less than 2 years. But I may well have been taking too much

calcium for the amount of magnesium in my diet and supplements, and I have

no idea how much silica/silicon I was consuming.

> Calcium

>

> The World Health Organization recommends 500 mg/day for children and 800

mg/day

> for adults. Professors such as Willard Willett, chairman of the Harvard

> Nutrition Department, T. Colin , professor emeritus of nutrition

at

> Cornell University, and n Nestle, chairman of nutrition at NYU,

believe

> that these current RDA's are too high and are not supported by the

evidence.

>

> http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/StrongBones.html

Isn't Willett the guy that's a front man for a sugar association? And what

was reported of 's China Study conclusions makes me mistrustful of

him. The beginning of the article talked about high calcium levels of milk

drinkers, but the study subjects were probably drinking pasteurized,

homogenized milk, so those results weren't convincing to me, because they

were using an adulterated food as the calcium source. But after I got

beyond that point, I found this article to be very thought-provoking. I may

be experiencing a paradigm shift.

> Calcium/Magnesium Imbalances

>

> Effect of Increased Calcium Intakes on Magnesium. To compensate for the

loss of

> Ca from osteoporotic bones, oral treatment with Ca is common. Rarely

considered

> is the effect of high Ca intakes on Mg requirements [5-7], or the

importance of

> Mg in maintaining normal bone matrix [5,9,12]. High dietary Ca/Mg ratios

> interfere with Mg absorption (Figure 1), partially because Ca and Mg share

a

> common intestinal absorption pathway [217,241,242]. Metabolic studies have

> shown interference by high dietary Ca with Mg retention of normal young

women

> [1,82], and of patients with osteopathies (Figure 2) [217,243-245].

> http://www.mgwater.com/estrogen.shtml

Ah, more complexity, the interaction of magnesium and estrogen levels. I

think they mentioned thyroid levels in here too. More new stuff to think

about.

> This study demonstrates the profound effect of Mg depletion on the

trabecular

> compartment of bone, which, with its greater surface area and turnover,

was

> more responsive to Mg depletion than cortical bone in the appendicular

skeleton

> of the mouse.

> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=155646

It struck me that the BMD of the mg-deficient mice wasn't significantly

lower, despite obvious depletion of the mg levels in the trabecular bone.

> Dr. Brownstein (and/or Dr. Abrhams) recommends 1200mg of magnesium while

> mega-dosing Iodine. If you have thyroid disease AND are taking high

calcium

> and then you toss iodine into the mix... my sense is that constipation

(among

> other things) might result because of inadequate magnesium intake perhaps

> coupled with too much calcium.

I understand now why you're saying that.

> Here is a short test that helps determine magnesium deficiency.

> http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/081501.htm

I scored 17, way below the 30-50 range that indicates likely low magnesium.

My massage therapist says working on me is like working on concrete, which I

thought could be low magnesium, but the test didn't ask about that.

Lynn

[Guest guest]

Rick,

The article posted from Well Being Journal mentioned horsetail as a source for silica. Could a horsetail infusion be used, or is the liquid format you recommend different than that? Do you like any particular brand?

Reversing osteoporosis with no calcium is a mind trip for me right now. I'm very familiar with the concept that it takes a lot of minerals other than calcium to build bone, but I always thought calcium needed to be in there, and I'd never heard of silica as an important player in bone metabolism.

Thanks for your offer to discuss this with my MD. I may take you up on this, but I want to do some more reading first.

Lynn

Lynn,

I recommend at least 300-400 mgs of Silica per day in a liquid format. I don't believe Calcium does anything to maintain or improve bone mass. I believe the usual recommendations are wrong because most practioners are looking at what should be an obvious solution-calcium- when in fact, it isn't working. The information on silica is out there, it just isn't well publicized and few are looking, thinking they are safe with calcium. No women, or men for that matter, in my family or whom I counsel with on nutrition take calcium. They all have strong bones and/or are reversing their osteopenia or osteoporosis. They all take silica. You body cannot manage all the calcium you are giving it. I would be happy to discuss this concept with your MD.

Rick Wagner

[Guest guest]

" My massage therapist says working on me is like working on concrete, which I

thought could be low magnesium, but the test didn't ask about that. "

Sounds like Myoedema. Myoedema is the phenomenon of mounding up of muscle

tissue after light percussion (massage?). Myoedema occurs in approximately one

third of patients with hypothyroidism, but it is not entirely specific for

hypothyroidism. Myoedema is thought to be caused by delayed calcium reuptake

by the sarcoplasmic reticulum, which also prolongs muscle contraction.

Although not proven, this type of prolongation of muscle contraction is also

thought to cause muscle hypertrophy.

This is the definition of Sarcoplasmic reticulum

Sarcoplasmic reticulum

In striated muscle it is specially adapted to surround the myofibrils, forming

triads with invaginations of the plasma membrane called T-tubules. The

sarcoplasmic reticulum contains large stores of Calcium, which it releases when

the cell become depolarised. This has the effect of triggering muscle

contraction.

I do think this is a good clue that your massage therapist gave you. BTW this

is how I had always understood excess calcium caused muscle stress and muscle

cramping.

--- Lynn McGaha <lmcgaha@...> wrote:

> ,

>

> You posted links to some very informative articles. Took me a while to read

> them all. Thanks for the time it took you to put them all together. My

> comments are interspersed below.

>

> > Hypothyroidism itself can cause magnesium deficiency. Thyroid disease in

> > general interferes with normal absorption, retention and utilization of

> > Calcium, magnesium and other minerals.

> >

>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=9494058 & query_hl=34 & itool=pubmed_DocSum

>

> Since they induced hypothyroidism by giving an iodine-blocker, I am more

> convinced that the problems they report are due to iodine deficiency rather

> than what would be associated with true hypothyroidism. They may be

> reflective of hypo, I just don't think their experimental design proved it.

> But if the effects of iodine deficiency are the same as the effects of

> blocking iodine, this sheds light on what kinds of problems would result.

>

> > My severe hypothyroid symptoms had me on beta-blockers and at the time in

> a

> > seemingly unrelated health issue I was in physical therapy for nerve and

> muscle

> > problems.

>

> This sounds like something more typically found with hyperthyroid. You said

> you have Hashi's, so is it possible you were in a hyper swing when you had

> these problems?

>

>

> > did eventually discovered a magnesium deficiency that was so bad that I

> had to

> > have IV's to recover since I could not correct it with 3 months of 1200mg

> daily

> > supplementing of the most highly absorbable forms of mag. I now know I

> have

> > had a life long mag deficiency since those and so many other problems have

> > cleared up with supplementing; including anxiety, prostate pain,

> calcification

> > of soft tissues... really, the list goes on and on. My chest X-rays use

> to be

> > covered with spots showing calcium deposits for the last 15 years. In the

> > absence of adequate magnesium excess calcium is deposited in soft tissues.

> The

> > spots are now gone from my X-rays.

>

> Sounds like magnesium was something of a magic bullet for you. That's quite

> impressive that your calcification spots cleared up.

> >

> > My research was for myself so I did not keep bookmarks but rather tried to

> put

> > the puzzle pieces together in my head. Here are some references that deal

> with

> > calcium and its balance with other minerals. Calcium does not necessarily

> do

> > what it is supposed to do especially when magnesium deficiency exists. I

> cut

> > out all question of my own needs and my reliance on often conflicting data

> and

> > just have regular RBC (red blood cell) analysis and find that I do not

> have to

> > supplement calcium at all for my cells to show adequate levels of calcium.

> On

> > the other hand maintaining magnesium levels that even approach normal,

> being

> > hypothyroid or not, is difficult. IMO, hair analysis is sometimes misread

> or

> > an inaccurate way to determine the need for minerals and vitamins.

> > http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/High%20Minerals185.htm

>

> Agreed, hair analysis can be misleading if not performed by a high quality

> lab, and if supplementation is given strictly for minerals one tests

> deficient in, it is a poor way to correct imbalances. I had read this

> article before, and it's interesting that you post it (or maybe you had some

> suspicion of this already), because the author of the article, Dr. Larry

> , is the same person that analyzed my ARL Laboratories test results

> and used them to recommend a supplement, diet, and lifestyle program for me.

> I take supplements made by ARL. I had off the chart levels of calcium and

> magnesium 15 years ago, before I was taking any supplements. My calcium is

> still quite high now, magnesium is elevated some, Ca/Mg ratio is high. With

> the high calcium and magnesium wasting that occurs in thyroid deficiency, I

> don't know if excess calcium is responsible for that result or not.

>

> I intend to forward the Well Being Journal article below on to Dr.

> and see if it changes his mind about calcium and magnesium recommendations.

> The ideas of supplementing silica/silicon and no calcium/high magnesium were

> new to me and this article has me thinking. I thought I was doing

> everything right, diet, exercise, supplements, and I still lost 11% bone

> density in less than 2 years. But I may well have been taking too much

> calcium for the amount of magnesium in my diet and supplements, and I have

> no idea how much silica/silicon I was consuming.

>

> > Calcium

> >

> > The World Health Organization recommends 500 mg/day for children and 800

> mg/day

> > for adults. Professors such as Willard Willett, chairman of the Harvard

> > Nutrition Department, T. Colin , professor emeritus of nutrition

> at

> > Cornell University, and n Nestle, chairman of nutrition at NYU,

> believe

> > that these current RDA's are too high and are not supported by the

> evidence.

> >

> > http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/StrongBones.html

>

> Isn't Willett the guy that's a front man for a sugar association? And what

> was reported of 's China Study conclusions makes me mistrustful of

> him. The beginning of the article talked about high calcium levels of milk

> drinkers, but the study subjects were probably drinking pasteurized,

> homogenized milk, so those results weren't convincing to me, because they

> were using an adulterated food as the calcium source. But after I got

> beyond that point, I found this article to be very thought-provoking. I may

> be experiencing a paradigm shift.

>

> > Calcium/Magnesium Imbalances

> >

> > Effect of Increased Calcium Intakes on Magnesium. To compensate for the

> loss of

> > Ca from osteoporotic bones, oral treatment with Ca is common. Rarely

> considered

> > is the effect of high Ca intakes on Mg requirements [5-7], or the

> importance of

> > Mg in maintaining normal bone matrix [5,9,12]. High dietary Ca/Mg ratios

> > interfere with Mg absorption (Figure 1), partially because Ca and Mg share

> a

> > common intestinal absorption pathway [217,241,242]. Metabolic studies have

> > shown interference by high dietary Ca with Mg retention of normal young

> women

> > [1,82], and of patients with osteopathies (Figure 2) [217,243-245].

> > http://www.mgwater.com/estrogen.shtml

>

> Ah, more complexity, the interaction of magnesium and estrogen levels. I

> think they mentioned thyroid levels in here too. More new stuff to think

> about.

>

> > This study demonstrates the profound effect of Mg depletion on the

> trabecular

> > compartment of bone, which, with its greater surface area and turnover,

> was

> > more responsive to Mg depletion than cortical bone in the appendicular

> skeleton

> > of the mouse.

> > http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=155646

>

> It struck me that the BMD of the mg-deficient mice wasn't significantly

> lower, despite obvious depletion of the mg levels in the trabecular bone.

>

> > Dr. Brownstein (and/or Dr. Abrhams) recommends 1200mg of magnesium while

> > mega-dosing Iodine. If you have thyroid disease AND are taking high

> calcium

> > and then you toss iodine into the mix... my sense is that constipation

> (among

> > other things) might result because of inadequate magnesium intake perhaps

> > coupled with too much calcium.

>

> I understand now why you're saying that.

>

> > Here is a short test that helps determine magnesium deficiency.

> > http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/081501.htm

>

> I scored 17, way below the 30-50 range that indicates likely low magnesium.

> My massage therapist says working on me is like working on concrete, which I

> thought could be low magnesium, but the test didn't ask about that.

>

> Lynn

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

, you are a wealth of information. If I have myoedema, how long do you

think it would take to go away after stopping calcium supplementation? I

had never heard of excess stress causing muscle cramping. I did start

getting muscle cramps 2 years ago. First in my calves, very painful, now

very occasionally in my feet and hands. I always thought it might be from

low magnesium or potassium, but hmm, according to your Being Well Journal

article, excess calcium could be the cause of that too.

That article referred to a future Part 2. Has Part 2 been published yet?

Lynn

> " My massage therapist says working on me is like working on concrete,

which I

> thought could be low magnesium, but the test didn't ask about that. "

>

> Sounds like Myoedema. Myoedema is the phenomenon of mounding up of muscle

> tissue after light percussion (massage?). Myoedema occurs in

approximately one

> third of patients with hypothyroidism, but it is not entirely specific for

> hypothyroidism. Myoedema is thought to be caused by delayed calcium

reuptake

> by the sarcoplasmic reticulum, which also prolongs muscle contraction.

> Although not proven, this type of prolongation of muscle contraction is

also

> thought to cause muscle hypertrophy.

>

> This is the definition of Sarcoplasmic reticulum

>

> Sarcoplasmic reticulum

> In striated muscle it is specially adapted to surround the myofibrils,

forming

> triads with invaginations of the plasma membrane called T-tubules. The

> sarcoplasmic reticulum contains large stores of Calcium, which it releases

when

> the cell become depolarised. This has the effect of triggering muscle

> contraction.

>

> I do think this is a good clue that your massage therapist gave you. BTW

this

> is how I had always understood excess calcium caused muscle stress and

muscle

> cramping.

>

[Guest guest]

Leg cramping can also be caused if one is sensitive to oxalates and

has a high oxalate diet. My leg cramping diminished greatly by going

on a low oxalate diet.

Alobar

On 7/22/06, Lynn McGaha <lmcgaha@...> wrote:

> , you are a wealth of information. If I have myoedema, how long do you

> think it would take to go away after stopping calcium supplementation? I

> had never heard of excess stress causing muscle cramping. I did start

> getting muscle cramps 2 years ago. First in my calves, very painful, now

> very occasionally in my feet and hands. I always thought it might be from

> low magnesium or potassium, but hmm, according to your Being Well Journal

> article, excess calcium could be the cause of that too.

>

> That article referred to a future Part 2. Has Part 2 been published yet?

>

> Lynn

>

[Guest guest]

I was just trying help your paradigm shift take hold by pointing out symptoms

that you are currently suffering from that MAY be caused by high calcium...not

to mention your continued bone loss. For instance, I have a friend who started

having occasional muscle spasms and regular sleeping difficultly 2 years ago

and then told me that was the exact same time she started coral calcium. She so

trusts her doctor that she still takes loads of calcium to prevent osteoporosis

(though she's never had it in the first place) and now takes Ambien to sleep.

It is my belief that conditions like myoedema are caused by mineral imbalance;

especially calcium to magnesium. Which would explain the prevalence of this

condition in thyroid disease. I think that the magnesium depletion and

imbalance in relation to the huge calcium intake is a big part of the issue

with many muscle related problems. Some people with heart conditions may take

a prescription calcium channel blocker, this stops the excess calcium from

invading the cells of the heart and causing excessive muscle contraction and

cramping AND allows magnesium to enter the muscle to ensure a relaxation phase.

According to Mildred Seelig, M.D., Ph.D., a premier magnesium researcher,

magnesium is " natures calcium channel blocker " .

I strongly suggest you seek out and listen to a doctor that doesn't think high

calcium is the answer to your osteoporosis. In my opinion, high calcium is not

the answer and excessive supplementing of it leads to ill health and/or odd

seemingly unrelated conditions AND continued bone loss.

Parts 2 & 3 of that series are online but it is a subscription newsletter and I

am not a member.

--- Lynn McGaha <lmcgaha@...> wrote:

> , you are a wealth of information. If I have myoedema, how long do you

> think it would take to go away after stopping calcium supplementation? I

> had never heard of excess stress causing muscle cramping. I did start

> getting muscle cramps 2 years ago. First in my calves, very painful, now

> very occasionally in my feet and hands. I always thought it might be from

> low magnesium or potassium, but hmm, according to your Being Well Journal

> article, excess calcium could be the cause of that too.

>

> That article referred to a future Part 2. Has Part 2 been published yet?

>

> Lynn

>

>

> > " My massage therapist says working on me is like working on concrete,

> which I

> > thought could be low magnesium, but the test didn't ask about that. "

> >

> > Sounds like Myoedema. Myoedema is the phenomenon of mounding up of muscle

> > tissue after light percussion (massage?). Myoedema occurs in

> approximately one

> > third of patients with hypothyroidism, but it is not entirely specific for

> > hypothyroidism. Myoedema is thought to be caused by delayed calcium

> reuptake

> > by the sarcoplasmic reticulum, which also prolongs muscle contraction.

> > Although not proven, this type of prolongation of muscle contraction is

> also

> > thought to cause muscle hypertrophy.

> >

> > This is the definition of Sarcoplasmic reticulum

> >

> > Sarcoplasmic reticulum

> > In striated muscle it is specially adapted to surround the myofibrils,

> forming

> > triads with invaginations of the plasma membrane called T-tubules. The

> > sarcoplasmic reticulum contains large stores of Calcium, which it releases

> when

> > the cell become depolarised. This has the effect of triggering muscle

> > contraction.

> >

> > I do think this is a good clue that your massage therapist gave you. BTW

> this

> > is how I had always understood excess calcium caused muscle stress and

> muscle

> > cramping.

> >

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

This is a lot of information........I can not take it all in. But I

have a question. I once had a calcified stone removed from a salavary

gland.

"In the absence of adequate magnesium excess

calcium is deposited in soft tissues."

The doctors all claim not to know why they sometimes appear for some

people. Could the low levels of magnesium be the cause???? Any

thoughts on this? It is possible for the stone to return I'm told. If

I can keep them at bay with magnesium, that would be wonderful.

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

I dissolved my sternum and chest calcium deposits with magnesium

supplementation. My X-rays show them as gone after 15 or so years of seeing

them in chest X-rays. New doctors would call me back to the office to get

different x-ray angles to see what was up with all the spots on my chest x-ray.

It scared the hell out of me the first few times. There is not a trace of

them now.

Large calcium deposits under my tongue have shrunk dramatically. I am sure I

was heading for heart issues with calcification there... but the chest pain I

experienced was hypothyroid related mostly, I think. I was severely magnesium

deficient for a long long time.

http://www.coldcure.com/html/seelig914.html

--- <Syre@...> wrote:

> This is a lot of information........I can not take it all in. But I

> have a question. I once had a calcified stone removed from a salavary

> gland.

> " In the absence of adequate magnesium excess calcium is deposited in

> soft tissues. "

>

> The doctors all claim not to know why they sometimes appear for some

> people. Could the low levels of magnesium be the cause???? Any

> thoughts on this? It is possible for the stone to return I'm told. If

> I can keep them at bay with magnesium, that would be wonderful.

> Thanks,

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

and , I hope now that you will never again have another chest X-ray. Regards Devaprem <kennio@...> wrote: I dissolved my sternum and chest calcium deposits with magnesiumsupplementation. My X-rays show them as gone after 15 or so years of seeingthem in chest X-rays. New doctors would call me back to the office to getdifferent x-ray angles to see what was up with all the spots on my chest x-ray.It scared the hell out of me the first few times. There is not a trace ofthem

now.Large calcium deposits under my tongue have shrunk dramatically. I am sure Iwas heading for heart issues with calcification there... but the chest pain Iexperienced was hypothyroid related mostly, I think. I was severely magnesiumdeficient for a long long time.http://www.coldcure.com/html/seelig914.html--- <Syre@...> wrote:> This is a lot of information........I can not take it all in. But I > have a question. I once had a calcified stone removed from a salavary > gland. > "In the absence of adequate magnesium excess calcium is deposited in > soft tissues."> > The doctors all claim not to know why they sometimes appear for some > people. Could the low levels of magnesium be the cause???? Any > thoughts on this? It is possible for the stone

to return I'm told. If > I can keep them at bay with magnesium, that would be wonderful.> Thanks, > __________________________________________________