Re: goiter, need help

[Guest guest]

it sounds to me like you just should have raised your Armour while on cortef, and then supplemented with Iodoral gradually increasing the dose. Cortef will allow you to increase the Armour and Iodoral.

Gracia

Hi All,If you recall, I've been supplementing with Armour, Cortef and Iosol, andlo and behold, I seem to have developed a goiter over the past week orso. That is, I had a goiter and it seems to have grown. It is nowactually painful on one side of my neck. My history is Graves, used to be hyperthyroid and became hypo over thepast year. I've had trouble raising my Armour beyond 15mgs., so startedCortef and that has helped, I can now take 45 mgs of Armour withoutbecoming hyper. My dose of Iosol is about 12mgs. In the past I have beenunable to tolerate Lugol's or Iodoral, although earlier this afternoon, Itook about 1 drop of Lugol's. In the formula I have, that is equivalentto 7.5 mgs. It raised my temp and pulse, from 97.7 to 98.2 and pulsefrom 48 to 51, over the course of about 2 hours.Just to complicate issues, I had to stop the Cortef as it was giving mehives and my face and eyes had become puffy. I substituted 2.5 mgs ofprednisone. My pulse is quite low, sometimes as low as 46. My bloodpressure is good (although it had become high on licorice and I had tostop that). My temps can be as low as 96.9 or as high as 98.4. I washolding steady at about 97.9, pulse 54 while I was on the Cortef. Withthe low dose of prednisone, my pulse is low again, as are my temps.Anybody have any ideas? Thanks,Dahlia

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[Guest guest]

it sounds to me like you just should have raised your Armour while on cortef, and then supplemented with Iodoral gradually increasing the dose. Cortef will allow you to increase the Armour and Iodoral.Gracia

Hi Gracia,

do you think the goiter is the result of too little armour/iodoral?

while I was on the cortef, I did raise the armour from 15 to 45. I may need additional increases, but I thought I had better go slowly. In fact, I'm even wondering if I need to switch to Levoxyl or equivalent. I've read some folks have trouble using armour if they have weak adrenals.

with thanks,

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

Dahlia, it sounds to me like you are changing a lot of things at the same time, so it is difficult to determine what is causing what.

If your goiter is growing and you have a history of Graves, I would suggest stopping the iodine for a couple weeks just to be sure it is not complicating things. With some people under some circumstances, there can be iodine-induced goiter. This usually goes away when the iodine is stopped.

Zoe

----- Original Message -----

From: srapp785@...

If you recall, I've been supplementing with Armour, Cortef and Iosol, andlo and behold, I seem to have developed a goiter over the past week orso. That is, I had a goiter and it seems to have grown. It is nowactually painful on one side of my neck. My history is Graves, used to be hyperthyroid and became hypo over thepast year. I've had trouble raising my Armour beyond 15mgs., so startedCortef and that has helped, I can now take 45 mgs of Armour withoutbecoming hyper. My dose of Iosol is about 12mgs. In the past I have beenunable to tolerate Lugol's or Iodoral, although earlier this afternoon, Itook about 1 drop of Lugol's. In the formula I have, that is equivalentto 7.5 mgs. It raised my temp and pulse, from 97.7 to 98.2 and pulsefrom 48 to 51, over the course of about 2 hours.Just to complicate issues, I had to stop the Cortef as it was giving mehives and my face and eyes had become puffy. I substituted 2.5 mgs ofprednisone. My pulse is quite low, sometimes as low as 46. My bloodpressure is good (although it had become high on licorice and I had tostop that). My temps can be as low as 96.9 or as high as 98.4. I washolding steady at about 97.9, pulse 54 while I was on the Cortef. Withthe low dose of prednisone, my pulse is low again, as are my temps.Anybody have any ideas? Thanks,Dahlia

[Guest guest]

well I think the goiter prob is too little Iodoral and some of us need additional Armour. The Armour dose is way tooo low and this is a common reason that peeps give up on Armour and go back to T4 meds. Average dose of Armour is 180-300mg. I see no benefit to going slow with either Iodoral or Armour but others would disagree. Any time I have had a prob it has been b/c of too low a dose.

look at http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com for common mistakes on Armour.

Gracia

it sounds to me like you just should have raised your Armour while on cortef, and then supplemented with Iodoral gradually increasing the dose. Cortef will allow you to increase the Armour and Iodoral.Gracia

Hi Gracia,

do you think the goiter is the result of too little armour/iodoral?

while I was on the cortef, I did raise the armour from 15 to 45. I may need additional increases, but I thought I had better go slowly. In fact, I'm even wondering if I need to switch to Levoxyl or equivalent. I've read some folks have trouble using armour if they have weak adrenals.

with thanks,

Dahlia

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[Guest guest]

Also, if you supplemnent with iodine, it's important to make sure

you have enough selenium in your diet too (supplements, Brazil nuts,

etc). An imbalance between the two can give side effects. Iodine-

induced goiters are more likely to happen if you're deficient in

selenium. I posted a link on it recently.

>

> Dahlia, it sounds to me like you are changing a lot of things at

the same time, so it is difficult to determine what is causing what.

>

> If your goiter is growing and you have a history of Graves, I

would suggest stopping the iodine for a couple weeks just to be sure

it is not complicating things. With some people under some

circumstances, there can be iodine-induced goiter. This usually

goes away when the iodine is stopped.

>

> Zoe

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: srapp785@...

>

> If you recall, I've been supplementing with Armour, Cortef and

Iosol, and

> lo and behold, I seem to have developed a goiter over the past

week or

> so. That is, I had a goiter and it seems to have grown. It is

now

> actually painful on one side of my neck.

>

> My history is Graves, used to be hyperthyroid and became hypo

over the

> past year. I've had trouble raising my Armour beyond 15mgs., so

started

> Cortef and that has helped, I can now take 45 mgs of Armour

without

> becoming hyper. My dose of Iosol is about 12mgs. In the past I

have been

> unable to tolerate Lugol's or Iodoral, although earlier this

afternoon, I

> took about 1 drop of Lugol's. In the formula I have, that is

equivalent

> to 7.5 mgs. It raised my temp and pulse, from 97.7 to 98.2 and

pulse

> from 48 to 51, over the course of about 2 hours.

>

> Just to complicate issues, I had to stop the Cortef as it was

giving me

> hives and my face and eyes had become puffy. I substituted 2.5

mgs of

> prednisone. My pulse is quite low, sometimes as low as 46. My

blood

> pressure is good (although it had become high on licorice and I

had to

> stop that). My temps can be as low as 96.9 or as high as 98.4.

I was

> holding steady at about 97.9, pulse 54 while I was on the

Cortef. With

> the low dose of prednisone, my pulse is low again, as are my

temps.

>

> Anybody have any ideas?

>

> Thanks,

> Dahlia

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Zoe,

Thank you so much for responding to my post.

> it sounds to me like you are changing a lot of things at the same time, so it is difficult to determine what is >causing what.

I know, I know....I really hate that it's working out that way, I much prefer to do one thing at a time, but I've had this terribly low pulse for one month + and I'm desperate! So, I know it's difficult.

>If your goiter is growing and you have a history of Graves, I would suggest stopping the iodine for a couple >weeks just to be sure it is not complicating things. With some people under some circumstances, there can >be iodine-induced goiter. This usually goes away when the iodine is stopped.

I'm curious why you are saying to stop the iodine. I know it's all very complicated, but I'm really afraid to stop the iodine, although it may be what's causing the problem. What makes you think it might be?>Zoe

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

>well I think the goiter prob is too little Iodoral and some of us need additional Armour. The Armour dose is >way tooo low and this is a common reason that peeps give up on Armour and go back to T4 meds. >Average dose of Armour is 180-300mg. I see no benefit to going slow with either Iodoral or Armour but >others would disagree. Any time I have had a prob it has been b/c of too low a dose.>look at http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com for common mistakes on Armour.>Gracia

Hi Gracia,

I will definitely check out the link you send. I'm not surprised to hear you say to raise the dose , but I thought most people agreed that it's better to go slow on raising on Armour.

Thank you for your thoughts,

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

Posted by: "jtb14789" jtb14789@... jtb14789

Sun Nov 5, 2006 12:43 pm (PST)

Also, if you supplemnent with iodine, it's important to make sure you have enough selenium in your diet too (supplements, Brazil nuts, etc). An imbalance between the two can give side effects. Iodine-induced goiters are more likely to happen if you're deficient in selenium. I posted a link on it recently.

,

thanks for that information...I take 400 mcg. of selenium and just recently added about 3 brazil nuts.

What do you think? Is that enough? Sorry I don't remember the link...do you still know it?

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

Why are you afraid to stop the iodine for a couple weeks?

I can't remember, Dahlia. Are you dealing with breast cancer? If so, you may not want to stop the iodine.

Otherwise, stopping it for a couple weeks shouldn't hurt anything. If you discover that it is unrelated to your goiter issues, then you'll know that it is not the culprit.

Iodine can have unpredictable results when you are dealing with goiter and Graves. That is one of the reasons that Abraham, et al, continually say that iodine should be done under the auspices of a physician. Thyroid issues should be watched carefully. Although iodine is completely safe for most people, there are some people who have unexpected reactions to it. My own bias is to err on the side of safety.

Are you working with a health practitioner who understands iodine?

Zoe

----- Original Message -----

From: srapp785@...

> it sounds to me like you are changing a lot of things at the same time, so it is difficult to determine what is >causing what.

I know, I know....I really hate that it's working out that way, I much prefer to do one thing at a time, but I've had this terribly low pulse for one month + and I'm desperate! So, I know it's difficult.

>If your goiter is growing and you have a history of Graves, I would suggest stopping the iodine for a couple >weeks just to be sure it is not complicating things. With some people under some circumstances, there can >be iodine-induced goiter. This usually goes away when the iodine is stopped.

I'm curious why you are saying to stop the iodine. I know it's all very complicated, but I'm really afraid to stop the iodine, although it may be what's causing the problem. What makes you think it might be?Dahlia

[Guest guest]

Some docs actually start their patients on 3 grains of Armour. Certainly you might go slow at higher doses but not 45mg IMO.

Gracia

>

Hi Gracia,

I will definitely check out the link you send. I'm not surprised to hear you say to raise the dose , but I thought most people agreed that it's better to go slow on raising on Armour.

Thank you for your thoughts,

Dahlia

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[Guest guest]

>Iodine can have unpredictable results when you are dealing with goiter and Graves. That is one of the >reasons that Abraham, et al, continually say that iodine should be done under the auspices of a physician. >Thyroid issues should be watched carefully. Although iodine is completely safe for most people, there are >some people who have unexpected reactions to it. My own bias is to err on the side of safety.>Are you working with a health practitioner who understands iodine?>Zoe

Hi Zoe,

I appreciate your concern, and yes, at last, I am going to see Dr. Schachter in two days. His website states he is iodine literate and hopefully knows a lot about thyroid and adrenals and the minerals good for both. I'll report back. (Up 'til now I've pretty much been wingin' it!, although under the care of an endo who follows me but admits to knowing little about iodine. He was interested in reading Derry's book, which I gave him a copy of. Perhaps I should give him Brownstein too.)

Thanks again,

[Guest guest]

>Some docs actually start their patients on 3 grains of Armour. Certainly you might go slow at higher doses >but not 45mg IMO.>Gracia

Gracia,

Yes, I read the STTM website. The comments there were most helpful. My plan is to see my 'iodine literate' alt med doc in a couple of days and see what he has to say. Up until now, I've just been trying to figure this out on my own. The whole thing is so curious because for almost 5 months I was good on 15 mgs. of Armour. Now 45 isn't really cutting it. I'm hoping nothing else is going on. Well, I'll report back, and again, thanks.

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

basically 15mg is not going to do much. when I got to 60mg I had bad headaches and felt jittery. I guess some would have interpreted that to mean I shouldn't be taking it, but I was at death's door. I increased Arnour and headaches went away, but still couldn't take enough until I got adrenal/sex hormones.

I hope you have good luck with alt med doc Dahlia

Gracia

>Some docs actually start their patients on 3 grains of Armour. Certainly you might go slow at higher doses >but not 45mg IMO.>Gracia

Gracia,

Yes, I read the STTM website. The comments there were most helpful. My plan is to see my 'iodine literate' alt med doc in a couple of days and see what he has to say. Up until now, I've just been trying to figure this out on my own. The whole thing is so curious because for almost 5 months I was good on 15 mgs. of Armour. Now 45 isn't really cutting it. I'm hoping nothing else is going on. Well, I'll report back, and again, thanks.

Dahlia

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[Guest guest]

>From: srapp785@...

>Gracia,

>Yes, I read the STTM website. The comments there were most helpful. My

>plan is to see my 'iodine literate' alt med doc in a couple of days and

>see what he has to say. Up until now, I've just been trying to figure

>this out on my own. The whole thing is so curious because for almost 5

>months I was good on 15 mgs. of Armour. Now 45 isn't really cutting it.

>I'm hoping nothing else is going on. Well, I'll report back, and again,

>thanks.

It's not unusual to get better on a particular dosage, and then after being

there for a while to regress. Eventually you plateau out. If not, it's

time to consider a 's type or Lowe type of thyroid treatment.

However 45 mg is still quite a low dose.

The Synthroid lit says too low a dose will make symptoms worse, or cause new

hypothyroid symptoms, so correct dosage is important, and too low a dose can

do harm.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

>basically 15mg is not going to do much. when I got to 60mg I had bad headaches and felt jittery. I guess >some would have interpreted that to mean I shouldn't be taking it, but I was at death's door. I increased >Arnour and headaches went away, but still couldn't take enough until I got adrenal/sex hormones.>I hope you have good luck with alt med doc Dahlia>Gracia

Hi Gracia,

Feeling on death's door myself, I upped my dose of magnesium today (I may have reached 1200mg), and took my Armour at closer intervals today, and I feel much better. I did take 60 mg of Armour (30 mg at 6 am, 15 mg at 9 am, and 15 mg at 1 pm)....maybe not enough time between doses?? b/c I was really jittery--but at least I was alive!

I'm also taking 15 mgs. Lugol's (1/2 in the morning, 1/2 in the afternoon). Also, I'm taking 5 mg. of prednisone an hour or so after first Armour dose.

What do you think?

thanks,

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

>It's not unusual to get better on a particular dosage, and then after being >there for a while to regress. Eventually you plateau out. If not, it's >time to consider a 's type or Lowe type of thyroid treatment.>However 45 mg is still quite a low dose.>The Synthroid lit says too low a dose will make symptoms worse, or cause new >hypothyroid symptoms, so correct dosage is important, and too low a dose can >do harm.>Skipper

Hi Skipper,

You know, I'm really beginning to believe this about too low a dose causing problems. This goiter I now have is noticeable, whereas when I first started Armour, you couldn't see it. If I follow the theory, I was becoming more hypothyroid on the low dose, leading to a larger goiter. It was painful over the weekend, but that seems to have gone with the Lugol's. I'm also questioning whether the Iosol which I'd been taking for the past 3 months or so was possibly not doing me any good, thyroid wise, even if it helps other bodily systems. I am going to go off it and try Lugol's for now and see how I do, in addition to increasing the Armour with the help of the prednisone.

Thank you very much for your in-put,

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

>From: srapp785@...

>in addition to

>increasing the Armour with the help of the prednisone.

>Thank you very much for your in-put,

Prednisone is not nearly the same stuff as Cortef (hydrocortisone /

cortisol.)

Cortef is the bio-identical hormone, Prednisone is a terrible synthetic

analog.

I switched to Prednisone for a couple weeks once and was messed up for weeks

afterward. I would not take Prednisone, I would only take Cortef.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

>From: srapp785@...

>Hi Skipper,

>You know, I'm really beginning to believe this about too low a dose

>causing problems.

I'm not sure why it's hard to believe when the T4 literature comes out and

says it -

http://rxlist.com/cgi/generic4/synthroid_ad.htm

Inadequate levothyroxine dosage will produce or fail to ameliorate the signs

and symptoms of hypothyroidism.

*************

That's pretty clear.

> I am going to go

>off it and try Lugol's for now and see how I do, in addition to

>increasing the Armour with the help of the prednisone.

>Thank you very much for your in-put,

My opinion is Prednisone = synthetic analog = garbage

Cortef (or generic hydrocortisone) = bio-identical hormone = much better.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

these doses would be torture for me b/c I need 240mg in the a.m.

If you like to split the dose maybe you could do 90/90 but 60mg is more of a starter dose. IMO I really like 50mg/day Iodoral too.

Gracia

>basically 15mg is not going to do much. when I got to 60mg I had bad headaches and felt jittery. I guess >some would have interpreted that to mean I shouldn't be taking it, but I was at death's door. I increased >Arnour and headaches went away, but still couldn't take enough until I got adrenal/sex hormones.>I hope you have good luck with alt med doc Dahlia>Gracia

Hi Gracia,

Feeling on death's door myself, I upped my dose of magnesium today (I may have reached 1200mg), and took my Armour at closer intervals today, and I feel much better. I did take 60 mg of Armour (30 mg at 6 am, 15 mg at 9 am, and 15 mg at 1 pm)....maybe not enough time between doses?? b/c I was really jittery--but at least I was alive!

I'm also taking 15 mgs. Lugol's (1/2 in the morning, 1/2 in the afternoon). Also, I'm taking 5 mg. of prednisone an hour or so after first Armour dose.

What do you think?

thanks,

Dahlia

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[Guest guest]

>these doses would be torture for me b/c I need 240mg in the a.m.>If you like to split the dose maybe you could do 90/90 but 60mg is more of a starter dose. IMO I really >like 50mg/day Iodoral too.>Gracia

Hi Gracia,

I've already increased to 30 and 30 on the armour; I'm going to take it really slow with the Lugol's b/c of a prior bad experience, so I'm at 7.5x2.

Thanks for your help!

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

>Cortef is the bio-identical hormone, Prednisone is a terrible synthetic >analog.>I switched to Prednisone for a couple weeks once and was messed up for weeks >afterward. I would not take Prednisone, I would only take Cortef.>Skipper

Hi Skipper,

I'm sold! I thought I was having an allergic reaction to Cortef, but I'll try again. I may have had a hard time b/c I was supplementing with Licorice at the same time, not realizing it was enhancing the effect of the Cortef. I'll try it without the lic. this time. I like the pred. b/c it's once a day dosing, but I'll re-think. Thanks!

>I'm not sure why it's hard to believe when the T4 literature comes out and >says it ->http://rxlist.com/cgi/generic4/synthroid_ad.htm>Inadequate levothyroxine dosage will produce or fail to ameliorate the signs >and symptoms of hypothyroidism.>*************>That's pretty clear.

Yep, it's clear. I guess I rarely believe drug companies but I do believe the folks on this list, not to mention my own experience, so thanks again for making the point.

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

>From: srapp785@...

>

>Hi Skipper,

>I'm sold! I thought I was having an allergic reaction to Cortef, but

>I'll try again.

Just because it's bio-identical doesn't mean you can't be allergic.

Probably to the fillers. It could be worth it to try generic

hydrocortisone. (Which you have to ask for in the right strength, if they

don't have it in the strength you want, they give you the brand name and

don't bother telling you why they're charging so much unless you ask.)

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

>Just because it's bio-identical doesn't mean you can't be allergic. >Probably to the fillers. It could be worth it to try generic >hydrocortisone. (Which you have to ask for in the right strength, if they >don't have it in the strength you want, they give you the brand name and >don't bother telling you why they're charging so much unless you ask.)>Skipper

Hi Skipper,

Well, thank you! I'm having a very strange reaction which I thought was allergic but which I now wonder about. It's this: when the Cortef wears out, i.e. at night, I get hives, really bad itchy ones. (I had this same reaction when on the prednisone.) When I wake up in the morning and take the Cortef, the itchiness gradually subsides throughout the day. I didn't have it the first month or so of taking Cortef, but I now have it every night.

Any ideas? (I guess this is now really off topic, so if you prefer, please email me off list.)

Thanks,

Dahlia

p.s. I've been dosing as follows: 10mgs. a.m., 5 mg noon + 5 mgs. 4 p.m. I'm thinking of either breaking up the 4 o'clock dose to 2.5 and taking 2.5 before bed, or even adding 2.5 before bed.

[Guest guest]

>From: srapp785@...

>Hi Skipper,

>Well, thank you! I'm having a very strange reaction which I thought was

>allergic but which I now wonder about. It's this: when the Cortef wears

>out, i.e. at night, I get hives, really bad itchy ones. (I had this same

>reaction when on the prednisone.) When I wake up in the morning and take

>the Cortef, the itchiness gradually subsides throughout the day. I

>didn't have it the first month or so of taking Cortef, but I now have it

>every night.

>

>Any ideas? (I guess this is now really off topic, so if you prefer,

>please email me off list.)

Sounds like an allergy. It seems I remember something about a yellow dye

that's in other things (cheetos and maybe aspirin) that can cause problems.

Skipper

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