Re: Phone call with Abraham -- loading test, constipation

[Guest guest]

Zoe,

I think Dr. Abraham is right but you may also be having some absorption issues. You may want to look into a liquid Iodine supplement to be sure you are truly getting the iodine into the tissues. I can give you some direction in that area. Do you have mercury issues as well?

Rick Wagner

Phone call with Abraham -- loading test, constipation

I called Dr Abraham today since Dr Flechas had told me to call him.

First, I asked him about my loading test, which came back at 48% after 50 mg Iodoral for over three months and 6-10 grams Vitamin C for several years. He seemed to think it might be caused by detoxing bromide, mercury, lead, etc.

He told me to increase the Iodoral to 100 mg for one month. He is having his assistant send 2 bottles of 50 mg Iodoral, free, enough for one month at 100 mg. Then, I am to take another loading test, and send the results in the two ounce bottles to both Flechas and Abraham. When I get the results back from Flechas, I am to fax a copy of the results to Abraham.

Second, I asked him about the constipation. He said to make sure everyone is getting enough Magnesium (1000-1200 mg), Vitamin C (3 grams), and fluids. He said that iodine increases cellular hydration and intercellular fluids. Therefore, it is important to drinks lots of fluids when taking iodine.

Also, he said that everyone should be on a complete nutritional program. When I asked him what that meant he referred me to his vitamin supplements: Optivite, Gynovite, and Androvite. http://www.optimox.com/index.html

At that point, he was busy, and I didn't have a chance to ask any more questions.

Zoe

[Guest guest]

Zoe,

This is fascinating, thanks so much for sharing.

> First, I asked him about my loading test, which came back at 48%

after 50 mg Iodoral for over three months and 6-10 grams Vitamin C

for several years. He seemed to think it might be caused by

detoxing bromide, mercury, lead, etc.

But why would detoxing cause a slower absorbing of iodine?

> He told me to increase the Iodoral to 100 mg for one month.

Wow! That is a lot. Have you started yet? I'm very curious to hear

how that goes for you - don't think anyone on the list has said they

take more than 50mg.

> He is having his assistant send 2 bottles of 50 mg Iodoral, free,

enough for one month at 100 mg. Then, I am to take another loading

test, and send the results in the two ounce bottles to both Flechas

and Abraham. When I get the results back from Flechas, I am to fax

a copy of the results to Abraham.

I am curious about him wanting you to send a sample to him.

Presumably he would do some analysis on it? I wonder if he will look

for heavy metals since he thinks that is the reason you are not

faster in absorbing iodine?

> Second, I asked him about the constipation. He said to make sure

everyone is getting enough Magnesium (1000-1200 mg), Vitamin C (3

grams), and fluids.

I've been meaning to ask for a while but why is magnesium and vit C

important when taking iodine? I know they both can have a laxative

effect but I doubt that is why they are recommended. I'm pretty sure

I get enough Magnesium because when I get too agressive with it I

get heart palpitations. I used to take 3 grams of vit C (ascorbic

acid) but lately have tapered off since I started taking Amalaki

powder (described in Nourishing Traditions as a food source of vit

C). It just seemed like a food source would be better than one

component (ascorbic acid). But I keep seeing recommendations here

for lots of C, presumably everyone is talking about ascorbic acid,

and I'd like to understand the rational.

> He said that iodine increases cellular hydration and intercellular

fluids. Therefore, it is important to drinks lots of fluids when

taking iodine.

That is fascinating. I increased my water yesterday and am already

doing better with digestion. I wonder why iodine has that effect?

Sharon

[Guest guest]

I believe there is a slower uptake of iodine (reflected in a longer tissue

loading period) whenever an individual is high is toxic metals as the iodine

is utilized by the body to chelate the heavy metals. The question is where

and in what form is the utilized iodine excreted. I don't believe this has

as yet been identified.

Rick

Re: Phone call with Abraham -- loading test,

constipation

Zoe,

This is fascinating, thanks so much for sharing.

> First, I asked him about my loading test, which came back at 48%

after 50 mg Iodoral for over three months and 6-10 grams Vitamin C

for several years. He seemed to think it might be caused by

detoxing bromide, mercury, lead, etc.

But why would detoxing cause a slower absorbing of iodine?

> He told me to increase the Iodoral to 100 mg for one month.

Wow! That is a lot. Have you started yet? I'm very curious to hear

how that goes for you - don't think anyone on the list has said they

take more than 50mg.

> He is having his assistant send 2 bottles of 50 mg Iodoral, free,

enough for one month at 100 mg. Then, I am to take another loading

test, and send the results in the two ounce bottles to both Flechas

and Abraham. When I get the results back from Flechas, I am to fax

a copy of the results to Abraham.

I am curious about him wanting you to send a sample to him.

Presumably he would do some analysis on it? I wonder if he will look

for heavy metals since he thinks that is the reason you are not

faster in absorbing iodine?

> Second, I asked him about the constipation. He said to make sure

everyone is getting enough Magnesium (1000-1200 mg), Vitamin C (3

grams), and fluids.

I've been meaning to ask for a while but why is magnesium and vit C

important when taking iodine? I know they both can have a laxative

effect but I doubt that is why they are recommended. I'm pretty sure

I get enough Magnesium because when I get too agressive with it I

get heart palpitations. I used to take 3 grams of vit C (ascorbic

acid) but lately have tapered off since I started taking Amalaki

powder (described in Nourishing Traditions as a food source of vit

C). It just seemed like a food source would be better than one

component (ascorbic acid). But I keep seeing recommendations here

for lots of C, presumably everyone is talking about ascorbic acid,

and I'd like to understand the rational.

> He said that iodine increases cellular hydration and intercellular

fluids. Therefore, it is important to drinks lots of fluids when

taking iodine.

That is fascinating. I increased my water yesterday and am already

doing better with digestion. I wonder why iodine has that effect?

Sharon

[Guest guest]

Zoe,

> " But why would detoxing cause a slower absorbing of iodine? " --

Sharon

>

> Sharon, do you have any thoughts on why detoxing might affect

iodine absorption??? Zoe

Chemistry is not my area but I am still curious. I think we've made

the following assumptions based on both research and statements from

expert iodine doctors (but double check me, please):

1. Halogens tend to accumulate in iodine receptor sites.

2. Iodine can displace halogens in the body causing halogens to be

excreted.

3. The halogens are excreted from the body, detoxed, when sufficient

iodine is taken.

4. The more halogens in the body, the more time it takes to achieve

whole-body iodine sufficiency. In other words, when the body has

high halogen levels, iodine that enters the body causes halogens to

be displaced, but the iodine is not absorbed at the same rate as

when the body has lower halogen levels. This is the kicker because

to me we are saying that iodine enters the body but not much is

absorbed and not much is excreted as iodine. So...what happened to

the iodine??

Since we know that matter is neither created nor destroyed under

natural circumstances, here is a wild guess - in the process of

displacing halogens the iodine is...transformed into something else!

I mentioned chemistry is not my area... But if iodine is causing

halogen displacement but not then available to be absorbed perhaps

it is because it is now something else? Perhaps something attached

to the halogens? Perhaps something excreted but not in the originial

form of iodine?

That is all I've got on that! Tear it apart, I can take it!

> > He said that iodine increases cellular hydration and

intercellular fluids. Therefore, it is important to drinks lots of

fluids when

> taking iodine. -- Abraham

>

> > That is fascinating. I increased my water yesterday and am

already doing better with digestion. I wonder why iodine has that

effect? -- Sharon

>

> Sharon, I too wonder why iodine would affect hydration. Do you

have any thoughts on this??? Zoe

>

Not one, sorry!

Sharon

[Guest guest]

This qoute below also relates to my idea that iodine may be

transformed into something else in the body in the process of

displacing other halogens. It is a quote from a previous post by the

Iosol representative that Zoe had asked several questions of. Here

the rep is answering Zoe's question regarding why Iosol should be

mixed in only distilled water:

" When iodine is added to water, which contains chlorine, fluoride

or any bromides, the iodine is destroyed. Distilled water to keep

the iodine in tact. " ---Kim A. Vieira, Ph.D.

Perhaps whatever happens to the iodine in water than contains other

halogens is also happening inside the body when iodine " detoxes "

halogens?

Sharon

>

> Zoe,

>

> > " But why would detoxing cause a slower absorbing of iodine? " --

> Sharon

> >

> > Sharon, do you have any thoughts on why detoxing might affect

> iodine absorption??? Zoe

>

> Chemistry is not my area but I am still curious. I think we've

made

> the following assumptions based on both research and statements

from

> expert iodine doctors (but double check me, please):

>

> 1. Halogens tend to accumulate in iodine receptor sites.

> 2. Iodine can displace halogens in the body causing halogens to be

> excreted.

> 3. The halogens are excreted from the body, detoxed, when

sufficient

> iodine is taken.

> 4. The more halogens in the body, the more time it takes to

achieve

> whole-body iodine sufficiency. In other words, when the body has

> high halogen levels, iodine that enters the body causes halogens

to

> be displaced, but the iodine is not absorbed at the same rate as

> when the body has lower halogen levels. This is the kicker because

> to me we are saying that iodine enters the body but not much is

> absorbed and not much is excreted as iodine. So...what happened to

> the iodine??

>

> Since we know that matter is neither created nor destroyed under

> natural circumstances, here is a wild guess - in the process of

> displacing halogens the iodine is...transformed into something

else!

> I mentioned chemistry is not my area... But if iodine is causing

> halogen displacement but not then available to be absorbed perhaps

> it is because it is now something else? Perhaps something attached

> to the halogens? Perhaps something excreted but not in the

originial

> form of iodine?

>

> That is all I've got on that! Tear it apart, I can take it!

>

>

> > > He said that iodine increases cellular hydration and

> intercellular fluids. Therefore, it is important to drinks lots

of

> fluids when

> > taking iodine. -- Abraham

> >

> > > That is fascinating. I increased my water yesterday and am

> already doing better with digestion. I wonder why iodine has that

> effect? -- Sharon

> >

> > Sharon, I too wonder why iodine would affect hydration. Do you

> have any thoughts on this??? Zoe

> >

>

> Not one, sorry!

> Sharon

>

[Guest guest]

This sounds like transmutation which is very probable especially after

reading Kervran.

Rick

Re: Phone call with Abraham -- loading test,

constipation

This qoute below also relates to my idea that iodine may be

transformed into something else in the body in the process of

displacing other halogens. It is a quote from a previous post by the

Iosol representative that Zoe had asked several questions of. Here

the rep is answering Zoe's question regarding why Iosol should be

mixed in only distilled water:

" When iodine is added to water, which contains chlorine, fluoride

or any bromides, the iodine is destroyed. Distilled water to keep

the iodine in tact. " ---Kim A. Vieira, Ph.D.

Perhaps whatever happens to the iodine in water than contains other

halogens is also happening inside the body when iodine " detoxes "

halogens?

Sharon

>

> Zoe,

>

> > " But why would detoxing cause a slower absorbing of iodine? " --

> Sharon

> >

> > Sharon, do you have any thoughts on why detoxing might affect

> iodine absorption??? Zoe

>

> Chemistry is not my area but I am still curious. I think we've

made

> the following assumptions based on both research and statements

from

> expert iodine doctors (but double check me, please):

>

> 1. Halogens tend to accumulate in iodine receptor sites.

> 2. Iodine can displace halogens in the body causing halogens to be

> excreted.

> 3. The halogens are excreted from the body, detoxed, when

sufficient

> iodine is taken.

> 4. The more halogens in the body, the more time it takes to

achieve

> whole-body iodine sufficiency. In other words, when the body has

> high halogen levels, iodine that enters the body causes halogens

to

> be displaced, but the iodine is not absorbed at the same rate as

> when the body has lower halogen levels. This is the kicker because

> to me we are saying that iodine enters the body but not much is

> absorbed and not much is excreted as iodine. So...what happened to

> the iodine??

>

> Since we know that matter is neither created nor destroyed under

> natural circumstances, here is a wild guess - in the process of

> displacing halogens the iodine is...transformed into something

else!

> I mentioned chemistry is not my area... But if iodine is causing

> halogen displacement but not then available to be absorbed perhaps

> it is because it is now something else? Perhaps something attached

> to the halogens? Perhaps something excreted but not in the

originial

> form of iodine?

>

> That is all I've got on that! Tear it apart, I can take it!

>

>

> > > He said that iodine increases cellular hydration and

> intercellular fluids. Therefore, it is important to drinks lots

of

> fluids when

> > taking iodine. -- Abraham

> >

> > > That is fascinating. I increased my water yesterday and am

> already doing better with digestion. I wonder why iodine has that

> effect? -- Sharon

> >

> > Sharon, I too wonder why iodine would affect hydration. Do you

> have any thoughts on this??? Zoe

> >

>

> Not one, sorry!

> Sharon

>

[Guest guest]

Iodine, like all minerals, are not destroyed. It may be transmuted into

another element and this may be what is happening, but destroyed is not the

proper description of what is happening. If iodine is changed in the detox

process so is whatever it is interacting with. This possible explanation

really needs to be better studied and understood.

Rick

Re: Phone call with Abraham -- loading test,

constipation

This qoute below also relates to my idea that iodine may be

transformed into something else in the body in the process of

displacing other halogens. It is a quote from a previous post by the

Iosol representative that Zoe had asked several questions of. Here

the rep is answering Zoe's question regarding why Iosol should be

mixed in only distilled water:

" When iodine is added to water, which contains chlorine, fluoride

or any bromides, the iodine is destroyed. Distilled water to keep

the iodine in tact. " ---Kim A. Vieira, Ph.D.

Perhaps whatever happens to the iodine in water than contains other

halogens is also happening inside the body when iodine " detoxes "

halogens?

Sharon

>

> Zoe,

>

> > " But why would detoxing cause a slower absorbing of iodine? " --

> Sharon

> >

> > Sharon, do you have any thoughts on why detoxing might affect

> iodine absorption??? Zoe

>

> Chemistry is not my area but I am still curious. I think we've

made

> the following assumptions based on both research and statements

from

> expert iodine doctors (but double check me, please):

>

> 1. Halogens tend to accumulate in iodine receptor sites.

> 2. Iodine can displace halogens in the body causing halogens to be

> excreted.

> 3. The halogens are excreted from the body, detoxed, when

sufficient

> iodine is taken.

> 4. The more halogens in the body, the more time it takes to

achieve

> whole-body iodine sufficiency. In other words, when the body has

> high halogen levels, iodine that enters the body causes halogens

to

> be displaced, but the iodine is not absorbed at the same rate as

> when the body has lower halogen levels. This is the kicker because

> to me we are saying that iodine enters the body but not much is

> absorbed and not much is excreted as iodine. So...what happened to

> the iodine??

>

> Since we know that matter is neither created nor destroyed under

> natural circumstances, here is a wild guess - in the process of

> displacing halogens the iodine is...transformed into something

else!

> I mentioned chemistry is not my area... But if iodine is causing

> halogen displacement but not then available to be absorbed perhaps

> it is because it is now something else? Perhaps something attached

> to the halogens? Perhaps something excreted but not in the

originial

> form of iodine?

>

> That is all I've got on that! Tear it apart, I can take it!

>

>

> > > He said that iodine increases cellular hydration and

> intercellular fluids. Therefore, it is important to drinks lots

of

> fluids when

> > taking iodine. -- Abraham

> >

> > > That is fascinating. I increased my water yesterday and am

> already doing better with digestion. I wonder why iodine has that

> effect? -- Sharon

> >

> > Sharon, I too wonder why iodine would affect hydration. Do you

> have any thoughts on this??? Zoe

> >

>

> Not one, sorry!

> Sharon

>

[Guest guest]

What do you mean Rick? Elements are not transmuted into other

elements inside the human body. Radiocative decay can transmute

elements. Exposing something to the high energy inside a nuclear

reactor can do it. Transmutaion happens inside a star. Life is a

series of chemical reactions, not nuclear reactions.

Alobar

On 7/31/06, Rick Wagner <rickwagner@...> wrote:

> Iodine, like all minerals, are not destroyed. It may be transmuted into

> another element and this may be what is happening, but destroyed is not the

> proper description of what is happening. If iodine is changed in the detox

> process so is whatever it is interacting with. This possible explanation

> really needs to be better studied and understood.

> Rick

[Guest guest]

Alobar,

I have just finished reading a book entitled Biological Transmutations by

Dr. Louis Kervran. I highly recommend you read it. There are a lot of

changes which take place in nature which cannot be explained by current

theories of physics, biology , or chemistry. Kervrain attempts to explain

the unexplainable just like physists are using string theory to tie together

the theories of gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong nuclear forces,

and general relativity. In fact, scientists have measured changes in

mineral content of plants and animals in the absence of exposure or access

to the increased mineral. I agree that traditional chemistry is saying what

you are saying. They think such a hypothesis is blasphemy. I certainly

cannot explain it myself. Kervran does an excellent job. I think he is

accurate in his hypothesis and know of no one who has been able to refute or

disprove it. There is a lot more about life that we don't know than do know.

It is therefore very important that we all keep an open mind and observe

critically avoiding our natural tendency to quote dogma. This is one of

those cases.

Rick Wagner

Re: Re: Phone call with Abraham -- loading test,

constipation

What do you mean Rick? Elements are not transmuted into other

elements inside the human body. Radiocative decay can transmute

elements. Exposing something to the high energy inside a nuclear

reactor can do it. Transmutaion happens inside a star. Life is a

series of chemical reactions, not nuclear reactions.

Alobar

On 7/31/06, Rick Wagner <rickwagner@...> wrote:

> Iodine, like all minerals, are not destroyed. It may be transmuted into

> another element and this may be what is happening, but destroyed is not

the

> proper description of what is happening. If iodine is changed in the

detox

> process so is whatever it is interacting with. This possible explanation

> really needs to be better studied and understood.

> Rick

[Guest guest]

There are lots of odd quirky beliefs and conjectures flolating around,

but I have seen no Nobel prize awarded for nuclear reactions within

plants or animals. The energy transfer in changing one atom into the

atom of another element is ennormous. If the reaction is exothermic,

we have a nuclear bomb. If it is endothermic, the entire organism

would freeze solid. Just not possible. Now, I could be wrong, but

where are the scientists jumping into this new field of study? Where

are the government funded big research programs?

While I fully agree that not everything is understood, making

conjectures about reactions which NEVER go on in any organism is just

pseuod-science. Just because there are unknowns does not mean

Kervran's conjectures are the right ones.

Alobar

On 8/1/06, Rick Wagner <rickwagner@...> wrote:

> Alobar,

> I have just finished reading a book entitled Biological Transmutations by

> Dr. Louis Kervran. I highly recommend you read it. There are a lot of

> changes which take place in nature which cannot be explained by current

> theories of physics, biology , or chemistry. Kervrain attempts to explain

> the unexplainable just like physists are using string theory to tie together

> the theories of gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong nuclear forces,

> and general relativity. In fact, scientists have measured changes in

> mineral content of plants and animals in the absence of exposure or access

> to the increased mineral. I agree that traditional chemistry is saying what

> you are saying. They think such a hypothesis is blasphemy. I certainly

> cannot explain it myself. Kervran does an excellent job. I think he is

> accurate in his hypothesis and know of no one who has been able to refute or

> disprove it. There is a lot more about life that we don't know than do know.

> It is therefore very important that we all keep an open mind and observe

> critically avoiding our natural tendency to quote dogma. This is one of

> those cases.

> Rick Wagner

[Guest guest]

I'm open to any theories you may have to describe the phenomena addressed in

the book. Perhaps you could describe how a hen makes a calcium encased egg

daily without eating calcium or how a cow produces calcium rich milk daily.

No one has been able to describe conclusively what goes on in a cell or how

life originated. How can any say they have all the answers. You will find

this book eye opening.

Rick

Re: Re: Phone call with Abraham -- loading test,

constipation

There are lots of odd quirky beliefs and conjectures flolating around,

but I have seen no Nobel prize awarded for nuclear reactions within

plants or animals. The energy transfer in changing one atom into the

atom of another element is ennormous. If the reaction is exothermic,

we have a nuclear bomb. If it is endothermic, the entire organism

would freeze solid. Just not possible. Now, I could be wrong, but

where are the scientists jumping into this new field of study? Where

are the government funded big research programs?

While I fully agree that not everything is understood, making

conjectures about reactions which NEVER go on in any organism is just

pseuod-science. Just because there are unknowns does not mean

Kervran's conjectures are the right ones.

Alobar

On 8/1/06, Rick Wagner <rickwagner@...> wrote:

> Alobar,

> I have just finished reading a book entitled Biological Transmutations

by

> Dr. Louis Kervran. I highly recommend you read it. There are a lot of

> changes which take place in nature which cannot be explained by current

> theories of physics, biology , or chemistry. Kervrain attempts to

explain

> the unexplainable just like physists are using string theory to tie

together

> the theories of gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong nuclear

forces,

> and general relativity. In fact, scientists have measured changes in

> mineral content of plants and animals in the absence of exposure or

access

> to the increased mineral. I agree that traditional chemistry is saying

what

> you are saying. They think such a hypothesis is blasphemy. I certainly

> cannot explain it myself. Kervran does an excellent job. I think he is

> accurate in his hypothesis and know of no one who has been able to

refute or

> disprove it. There is a lot more about life that we don't know than do

know.

> It is therefore very important that we all keep an open mind and observe

> critically avoiding our natural tendency to quote dogma. This is one of

> those cases.

> Rick Wagner

[Guest guest]

Because there is no explanation for something does not mean that a far

out energetically impossible explanation has validity. Show me peer

reviewed experiments. Show me energy equations.

Chickens will take Calcium from their bones to make eggshells. I

remember some reseach I read about when I was in college, back around

1965, which looked into where animals get minerals from when they have

a diet deficient in those minerals. They discovered that the

concrete walls of the laboratory gave off Calcium into the air and

that was absorbed by the test animals. When the air was purified of

minerals, the animals had no mineral intake. Not much is absorbed by

breathing. But some.

Lots of areas where we do not know answers. But it is far better to

admit ignorance than to postulate an impossibility as an explanation,

unless one has real hard tangible proof that our current understanding

of nuclear physics is just plain wrong.

Alobar

On 8/1/06, Rick Wagner <rickwagner@...> wrote:

> I'm open to any theories you may have to describe the phenomena addressed in

> the book. Perhaps you could describe how a hen makes a calcium encased egg

> daily without eating calcium or how a cow produces calcium rich milk daily.

> No one has been able to describe conclusively what goes on in a cell or how

> life originated. How can any say they have all the answers. You will find

> this book eye opening.

> Rick

[Guest guest]

You are sounding dogmatic. Why don't you read the book to see what a very

well trained chemist had to say? I'm certainly not the one who did the

research or evaluation on any study results. They certainly were compelling

though. What do you think the mechanism is that causes the removal of

calcium deposits on bone when one supplements with silica?

Rick

Re: Re: Phone call with Abraham -- loading test,

constipation

Because there is no explanation for something does not mean that a far

out energetically impossible explanation has validity. Show me peer

reviewed experiments. Show me energy equations.

Chickens will take Calcium from their bones to make eggshells. I

remember some reseach I read about when I was in college, back around

1965, which looked into where animals get minerals from when they have

a diet deficient in those minerals. They discovered that the

concrete walls of the laboratory gave off Calcium into the air and

that was absorbed by the test animals. When the air was purified of

minerals, the animals had no mineral intake. Not much is absorbed by

breathing. But some.

Lots of areas where we do not know answers. But it is far better to

admit ignorance than to postulate an impossibility as an explanation,

unless one has real hard tangible proof that our current understanding

of nuclear physics is just plain wrong.

Alobar

On 8/1/06, Rick Wagner <rickwagner@...> wrote:

> I'm open to any theories you may have to describe the phenomena

addressed in

> the book. Perhaps you could describe how a hen makes a calcium encased

egg

> daily without eating calcium or how a cow produces calcium rich milk

daily.

> No one has been able to describe conclusively what goes on in a cell or

how

> life originated. How can any say they have all the answers. You will

find

> this book eye opening.

> Rick