Hashi's and Iodine - to take or not to take?

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Is there anyone out there with Hashi's/thyroid antibodies who has been

taking iodine (e.g. Lugol's)? If so did you get a flare up of symptoms?

I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view seems to be

that you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know that the

iodine docs seem to think that you should.

Many thanks,

.

[Guest guest]

I am taking the iodine since 4 weeks and have Hashimotos. I was advised to take it by

Dr. Mark Starr who wrote a book on Hypothyroidism.....the hidden epidemic. I have not

told my regular endocrinologist that I am taking iodine. I can't say that I notice a difference

one way or the other, except that every time my doctor adjusts my Synthroid too low, I

get heart palpitations (usually that only happens in most people when it is adjusted too

high). This time, when that happened, I decided I would give the iodine a try because I

have done everything else I can possibly think of (L-Carnitine, Taurine, Magnesium, B vitamins

etc etc). To my surprise, the second day on one Iodoral, the palpitations stopped and so

far I still feel ok, even though I know my T4 is too low at the moment.

Dr. Starr says that the only negative effects he has seen with Iodine is that some people

who are getting too much have the runny nose, metal taste in mouth etc. which subsides

when you reduce the intake.

Karin

GUHDO USA Inc. 1135 JVL Court Marietta, GA 30066 770-592-4766 (phone) 770-592-1714 (fax) www.guhdo.com

-----Original Message-----From: iodine [mailto:iodine ]On Behalf Of jgarcia3788Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 10:03 AMiodine Subject: Hashi's and Iodine - to take or not to take?Hi all,Is there anyone out there with Hashi's/thyroid antibodies who has beentaking iodine (e.g. Lugol's)? If so did you get a flare up of symptoms? I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view seems to bethat you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know that theiodine docs seem to think that you should.Many thanks,.

[Guest guest]

Yes, I am taking Iodoral 50mg and I have hashi's. I am heading into my 3rd

week. I almost immediately lost 10 pounds, but I had just upped my dose of

levoxyl by 12.5 mg at the same time I started the iodine. I had been feeling

some symptoms before starting iodine.

The only weird thing was a burning of my lips at the 2 week (due to sensitivity

to acids or vitamin C ??) I took a drink of my usual tomato juice and it was

like drinking acid. It burned my lips, the skin came off. Maybe it was from

drinking too much tomatoe juice and not related to the iodine at all...I don't

know. Now that I stay away from acidic drinks I am fine. My PH is actually

better than ever. My body water measuring scale says I dehydrate much quicker

than usual so I drink more water. I lift weights and I have noticed that my

muscle building capability is up as is my endurance. I am sleeping soooo

heavily lately that I am a little worried that it is a new kind of symptom (I

could sleep 10 hrs)...usually hashi gives me insomnia. I wake extremely groggy

but soon shake it off and don't feel fatigued during the day. So we will see

how that goes. I intend on getting blood work every 30 days to see if I am

killing myself or not.

I would definitely do the iodine urinalysis first to see if you have a problem.

--- jgarcia3788 <jgarcia3788@...> wrote:

> Hi all,

> Is there anyone out there with Hashi's/thyroid antibodies who has been

> taking iodine (e.g. Lugol's)? If so did you get a flare up of symptoms?

>

> I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view seems to be

> that you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know that the

> iodine docs seem to think that you should.

>

> Many thanks,

> .

>

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view seems to bethat you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know that theiodine docs seem to think that you should.Many thanks,.

=========================================================

From what I have read and what Dr. Brownstein has told me is that Hashis is a result of the body's inability to create enough hormone - plus other factors. But due to this the thyroid gets tired and ends up swelling. I had Hashi's before I got thyroid cancer they believe. My iodine levels were not measurable when Dr. B ran my tests. If I were you I would take it. I think the real debate is more in graves not hashi's.

Not sure if that helped.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Karin, and for your valuable feedback.

My experience (so far) is that taking iodine (Lugol's) very

effectively kicks in the thyroid to produce more thyroid hormones.

However since I have Hashi's I was also producing a lot of antibodies

and could feel my thyroid being attacked (which I've never felt

before). It was not at all pleasant.

This would support the orthodox view (at least in my case) that taking

iodine is not a good idea for those with Hashimoto's. Its a shame

because it seemed to be effective in reversing hypothyroidism.

> From what I have read and what Dr. Brownstein has told me is that

> Hashis is a result of the body's inability to create enough hormone -

> plus other factors. But due to this the thyroid gets tired and ends

> up swelling.

, my understanding is that what you are describing is goitre

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitre) which as you say is the thyroid

gland swelling due to too little iodine.

I'm more interested in Hashimoto's disease

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashimoto_Disease) which is caused by

the body's own antibodies attacking the thyroid gland.

> I had Hashi's before I got thyroid cancer they believe. My iodine

> levels were not measurable when Dr. B ran my tests. If I were you I

> would take it. I think the real debate is more in graves not

> hashi's.

.

[Guest guest]

So you are saying that based on blood tests you took before and during iodine

supplementation that the antibodies increased dramatically? What kinda of

increase in the antibodies are we talking?

--- jgarcia3788 <jgarcia3788@...> wrote:

> Thanks Karin, and for your valuable feedback.

>

> My experience (so far) is that taking iodine (Lugol's) very

> effectively kicks in the thyroid to produce more thyroid hormones.

> However since I have Hashi's I was also producing a lot of antibodies

> and could feel my thyroid being attacked (which I've never felt

> before). It was not at all pleasant.

>

> This would support the orthodox view (at least in my case) that taking

> iodine is not a good idea for those with Hashimoto's. Its a shame

> because it seemed to be effective in reversing hypothyroidism.

>

> > From what I have read and what Dr. Brownstein has told me is that

> > Hashis is a result of the body's inability to create enough hormone -

> > plus other factors. But due to this the thyroid gets tired and ends

> > up swelling.

>

> , my understanding is that what you are describing is goitre

> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitre) which as you say is the thyroid

> gland swelling due to too little iodine.

>

> I'm more interested in Hashimoto's disease

> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashimoto_Disease) which is caused by

> the body's own antibodies attacking the thyroid gland.

>

> > I had Hashi's before I got thyroid cancer they believe. My iodine

> > levels were not measurable when Dr. B ran my tests. If I were you I

> > would take it. I think the real debate is more in graves not

> > hashi's.

>

> .

>

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

You raise a very important question: What is the effect of iodine on Hashimoto's Disease?

This is an area of major controversy -- and significant consequences. I don't think we really know the answer to this one yet. Brownstein and Abraham suggest that iodine is useful for Hashi's. The orthodox view says it is dangerous.

I hope we can collect information that will help us understand this issue better. Thanks for letting us know your experience.

It may be that some related variable ends up being significant. For example, in the email I sent earlier today, Smyth suggests that selenium is crucial with the thyroid autoimmune disorders.

We have started a set of links on auto-immune disorders here:

Links > 21 How Iodine Affects the Body > Thyroid > 11 Auto-Immune Issues

iodine/links/How_Iodine_Affects_t_001138666832/Thyroid_001138148449/Auto_Immune_Issues_001143568069

I've added your Wikipedia link to that section.

Hashimoto's Disease -- Wikipedia "Physiologically, antibodies to thyroid peroxidase and/or thyroglobulin cause gradual destruction of follicles in the thyroid gland. Accordingly, the disease can be detected clinically by looking for these antibodies in the blood. It is also characterised by invasion of the thyroid tissue by leukocytes, chiefly T-lymphocytes. Treatment is with daily thyroxine, with the sodium salt of thyroxine liothyronine given when the need to raise levels of circulating thyroxine is urgent. Symptoms of Hashimoto's thyroiditis include symptoms of hypothyroidism and a goitre. In European countries an atrophic form of autoimmune thyroiditis (Ord's thyroiditis) is more common than Hashimoto's thyroiditis." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashimoto_Disease

I found it very interesting that the Wikipedia article says that Europe has a different pattern of autoimmune disease than the US. Do you know the significant differences between Ord's and Hashi's?

Zoe

My experience (so far) is that taking iodine (Lugol's) veryeffectively kicks in the thyroid to produce more thyroid hormones.However since I have Hashi's I was also producing a lot of antibodiesand could feel my thyroid being attacked (which I've never feltbefore). It was not at all pleasant.This would support the orthodox view (at least in my case) that takingiodine is not a good idea for those with Hashimoto's. Its a shamebecause it seemed to be effective in reversing hypothyroidism.

[Guest guest]

Hi Zoe,

thanks for your very informative reply.

BTW apologies to - I didn't realise that goitre was part of

the definition of Hashimoto's

> This is an area of major controversy -- and significant

> consequences. I don't think we really know the answer to this one

> yet ... I hope we can collect information that will help us

> understand this issue better. Thanks for letting us know your

> experience.

I stress it was just my experience. I would be interested to know if

anyone else with Hashi's has different experiences.

> It may be that some related variable ends up being significant. For

> example, in the email I sent earlier today, Smyth suggests that

> selenium is crucial with the thyroid autoimmune disorders.

Yes absolutely. Talking about selenium here is an article a friend of

mine sent me: http://tinyurl.com/htl3s

It talks about the thyroid and its need for (the selenium dependent)

glutathione peroxidase.

> We have started a set of links on auto-immune disorders here:

Thanks for those links

> I found it very interesting that the Wikipedia article says that

Europe has a different pattern of autoimmune disease than the US. Do

you know the significant differences between Ord's and Hashi's?

From what I've looked up the difference between the 2 seems to be that

Hashi's involves goitre, whereas Ord's involves a shrinking of the

thyroid due to autoimmune attacks. I'm not sure if they are really 2

distinct conditions or merely different manifestations of the same.

.

[Guest guest]

> jgarcia3788 <jgarcia3788@...> wrote: Hi all,

> Is there anyone out there with Hashi's/thyroid antibodies who has

been

> taking iodine (e.g. Lugol's)? If so did you get a flare up of

symptoms?

>

> I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view seems to

be

> that you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know that the

> iodine docs seem to think that you should.

>

> Many thanks,

> .

[Repost of a report I wrote elsewhere on Feb 25, 2006:]

Despite believing that I am one of the 15% of hashi-hypo PTs

that have been noted in other literature as having antibody

exacerbation from iodine (as noted by Pat on HHN or WH),

I decided to try some judicious iodine/iodide experiments lately.

Seasilver product has a lot of sea vegetables in it, and I know

I can take 1 capful of this per day without a problem. They don't

declare any particular amount of iodine on the label, nor do they

even mention it, but the sea vegetables tell me it has some

iodine. Two capsful however, and I start getting visible

thyroid inflammation, major rosacea exacerbation, and lose any

heat tolerance I might have had - these symptoms start

showing up in 1-3 days after taking the excess. And they leave

on their own about a week after not taking the product, and

using powdered inositol to calm the adrenals, calm the rosacea.

In a couple of weeks I'm back to normal.

I recently got some IODORAL to experiment with firsthand since

there's been a lot of yak on the net and elsewhere about it

recently. My husband also wanted to try it.

I muscle tested myself at 1/10 of a tablet daily,

and my husband at 1/4 of a tablet daily.

1/4 of a tablet is about 50x the minimum daily requirement. He seems

to be doing ok on his amount, but I went into visible

thyroid inflammation, major rosacea exacerbation, and lost any

heat tolerance with 1/10 of a tablet. I'll give him the rest of

the bottle and go back to Seasilver for myself. OK, I've had

the experience. :-)

--

Addendum:

I've said for 20 years that muscle testing, when done well,

can yield an 80%+ accuracy. Apparently this one fell into the

20% margin for error.

--

My sense is that iodine needs and tolerance are very individualized,

and that iodine excess can be deranging toward hypo or hyper,

or some of each in succession. We need to differentiate between

short term and longeterm effects. I suspect there will be some

middle ground between the MDR of 150 mcg and something near the

World Health Org upper limit of 1000 mcg that will suit most

people for longterm use. I expect the high iodine craze to be

a fad.

--

There was an article in this month's (Apr 06) Townsend Letter

pg 93. by an MD Derrick Lonsdale and his colleague(s)

who are trying the high dose iodine. Two of the doctors got

esophagitis during the experiment. They were puzzled by this.

I know from own experience in past years this is a symptom of

hypothyroid. I had this for a few months when I was undiagnosed

and untreated hashi-hypo, and it resolved when I was properly

medicated with thyroid.

Carol

willis_protocols

My article archive in Files, blog, extensive Links,

non-commercial, not a discussion group.

[Guest guest]

That's the situation. Saying that the iodine caused the antibodies is obviously not justified, but it is a bit of a coincidence, isn't it? On the recent test, my anti-Tg was about 50 (range <20), not terribly high, but on the 2 previous tests I was below the detection range on both anti-Tg and anti-TPO. Also 2 ultrasounds and an uptake scan were normal, but I had the throat bulgy feeling back then (and still do).So, draw what conclusions you can from that. I'm a mystery man... -- prr <kennio@...> wrote: So you were hypothyroid and were taking thyroid hormone for three years or more with no sign of antibodies until you started taking iodine, is that right? I thought antibodies were always

present when you have Hashimoto's. The antibodies don't go to zero when the thyroid is treated with hormone, right? Mine never did. --- Ross <p_r_ross@...> wrote: > Well, I have tested negative for antibodies for 3 years or so. The last test > (a couple months ago) was finally positive for Tg. I had started iodine a > few weeks earlier, so that could be what finally put me "on the charts", or > it could just be that thyroid blood tests suck, and they often take years to > catch up with the symptoms. > > -- prr > > jgarcia3788 <jgarcia3788@...> wrote: Hi all, > Is there anyone out there with Hashi's/thyroid antibodies who has been > taking iodine (e.g. Lugol's)? If so did you get a flare up of symptoms? > > I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view

seems to be > that you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know that the > iodine docs seem to think that you should. > > Many thanks, > . > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I have read on many occasions that too much iodine can worse Hasimoto's -- in fact in one study they actually found that iodine restriction normalized thyroid function in Hashimoto's.  I'll send the pdf to Zoe.LizOn Apr 23, 2006, at 10:23 PM, Ross wrote: That's the situation.  Saying that the iodine caused the antibodies is obviously not justified, but it is a bit of a coincidence, isn't it?  On the recent test, my anti-Tg was about 50 (range <20), not terribly high, but on the 2 previous tests I was below the detection range on both anti-Tg and anti-TPO.  Also 2 ultrasounds and an uptake scan were normal, but I had the throat bulgy feeling back then (and still do).So, draw what conclusions you can from that.  I'm a mystery man...  -- prr <kennio@...> wrote: So you were hypothyroid and were taking thyroid hormone for three years or more with no sign of antibodies until you started taking iodine, is that right? I thought antibodies were always present when you have Hashimoto's.  The antibodies don't go to zero when the thyroid is treated with hormone, right? Mine never did. --- Ross <p_r_ross@...> wrote: > Well, I have tested negative for antibodies for 3 years or so.  The last test > (a couple months ago) was finally positive for Tg.  I had started iodine a > few weeks earlier, so that could be what finally put me "on the charts", or > it could just be that thyroid blood tests suck, and they often take years to > catch up with the symptoms. > > -- prr > > jgarcia3788 <jgarcia3788@...> wrote:    Hi all, >  Is there anyone out there with Hashi's/thyroid antibodies who has been >  taking iodine (e.g. Lugol's)? If so did you get a flare up of symptoms? >  >  I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view seems to be >  that you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know that the >  iodine docs seem to think that you should. >  >  Many thanks, >  . >  >  >  >  >  >             > >        

[Guest guest]

What seems to be saying is that iodine GAVE him hashimoto's. He had no

antibodies that would lead to a diagnosis of hashimoto's before taking

iodine...he was simply hypothyroid. Does a person with hashimoto's ever have

NO antibodies? I've have always been in the 40's.

--- <ecmillerreid@...> wrote:

> I have read on many occasions that too much iodine can worse

> Hasimoto's -- in fact in one study they actually found that iodine

> restriction normalized thyroid function in Hashimoto's. I'll send

> the pdf to Zoe.

>

> Liz

> On Apr 23, 2006, at 10:23 PM, Ross wrote:

>

> > That's the situation. Saying that the iodine caused the antibodies

> > is obviously not justified, but it is a bit of a coincidence, isn't

> > it? On the recent test, my anti-Tg was about 50 (range <20), not

> > terribly high, but on the 2 previous tests I was below the

> > detection range on both anti-Tg and anti-TPO. Also 2 ultrasounds

> > and an uptake scan were normal, but I had the throat bulgy feeling

> > back then (and still do).

> >

> > So, draw what conclusions you can from that. I'm a mystery man...

> >

> > -- prr

> >

> > <kennio@...> wrote:

> > So you were hypothyroid and were taking thyroid hormone for three

> > years or more

> > with no sign of antibodies until you started taking iodine, is that

> > right?

> >

> > I thought antibodies were always present when you have

> > Hashimoto's. The

> > antibodies don't go to zero when the thyroid is treated with

> > hormone, right?

> > Mine never did.

> >

> >

> > --- Ross <p_r_ross@...> wrote:

> >

> > > Well, I have tested negative for antibodies for 3 years or so.

> > The last test

> > > (a couple months ago) was finally positive for Tg. I had started

> > iodine a

> > > few weeks earlier, so that could be what finally put me " on the

> > charts " , or

> > > it could just be that thyroid blood tests suck, and they often

> > take years to

> > > catch up with the symptoms.

> > >

> > > -- prr

> > >

> > > jgarcia3788 <jgarcia3788@...> wrote: Hi all,

> > > Is there anyone out there with Hashi's/thyroid antibodies who

> > has been

> > > taking iodine (e.g. Lugol's)? If so did you get a flare up of

> > symptoms?

> > >

> > > I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view seems to be

> > > that you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know that the

> > > iodine docs seem to think that you should.

> > >

> > > Many thanks,

> > > .

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

The literature confirms that iodine might worsen hashimoto's and maybe even initiate it? But then there is always the complication of what form of iodine is used. LizOn Apr 23, 2006, at 11:15 PM, wrote: What seems to be saying is that iodine GAVE him hashimoto's.  He had no antibodies that would lead to a diagnosis of hashimoto's before taking iodine...he was simply hypothyroid.  Does a person with hashimoto's ever have NO antibodies?  I've have always been in the 40's. --- <ecmillerreid@...> wrote: > I have read on many occasions that too much iodine can worse  > Hasimoto's -- in fact in one study they actually found that iodine  > restriction normalized thyroid function in Hashimoto's.  I'll send  > the pdf to Zoe. > > Liz > On Apr 23, 2006, at 10:23 PM, Ross wrote: > > > That's the situation.  Saying that the iodine caused the antibodies  > > is obviously not justified, but it is a bit of a coincidence, isn't  > > it?  On the recent test, my anti-Tg was about 50 (range <20), not  > > terribly high, but on the 2 previous tests I was below the  > > detection range on both anti-Tg and anti-TPO.  Also 2 ultrasounds  > > and an uptake scan were normal, but I had the throat bulgy feeling  > > back then (and still do). > > > > So, draw what conclusions you can from that.  I'm a mystery man... > > > > -- prr > > > > <kennio@...> wrote: > > So you were hypothyroid and were taking thyroid hormone for three  > > years or more > > with no sign of antibodies until you started taking iodine, is that  > > right? > > > > I thought antibodies were always present when you have  > > Hashimoto's.  The > > antibodies don't go to zero when the thyroid is treated with  > > hormone, right? > > Mine never did. > > > > > > --- Ross <p_r_ross@...> wrote: > > > > > Well, I have tested negative for antibodies for 3 years or so.   > > The last test > > > (a couple months ago) was finally positive for Tg.  I had started  > > iodine a > > > few weeks earlier, so that could be what finally put me "on the  > > charts", or > > > it could just be that thyroid blood tests suck, and they often  > > take years to > > > catch up with the symptoms. > > > > > > -- prr > > > > > > jgarcia3788 <jgarcia3788@...> wrote:    Hi all, > > >  Is there anyone out there with Hashi's/thyroid antibodies who  > > has been > > >  taking iodine (e.g. Lugol's)? If so did you get a flare up of  > > symptoms? > > > > > >  I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view seems to be > > >  that you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know that the > > >  iodine docs seem to think that you should. > > > > > >  Many thanks, > > >  . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >        

[Guest guest]

The quotes below from Guy E. Abraham, MD are what got me into this; trying to

reverse my Hashimoto's. So yes there are many studies that say iodine worsens

hashimoto's. However, being iodine deficient and restricting iodine for any

reason makes no sense to me. We all bucked traditional medicine the moment we

took or tried to take our iodine at 33,332% of the RDA as

Orthoiodosupplementation dictates.

" Inadequate iodine/iodide intake combined with goitrogens, not excess iodide,

is the cause of autoimmune thyroiditis. Last, the concept of

orthoiodosupplementation is the safest and most effective method of

supplementing patients with this essential trace element in amounts for whole

body

sufficiency. "

" It is of interest to note that prior to iodization of salt, autoimmune

thyroiditis was almost non-existent in the US, although Lugol solution and

potassium iodide were used extensively in medical practice in amounts two

orders of magnitude greater than the average daily amount ingested from iodized

salt. This suggests that inadequate iodine intake aggravated by goitrogens, not

excess iodide, was the cause of this condition. To be discussed later,

autoimmune thyroiditis cannot be induced by inorganic iodide in laboratory

animals unless combined with goitrogens, therefore inducing iodine deficiency. "

AND the biggy

" Orthoiodosupplementation, combined with magnesium intake between 800-1,200

mg/day, a daily amount this author recommended 21 years ago for magnesium

sufficiency, should reverse autoimmune thyroiditis. "

From his mouth to god's ear.

http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-05/IOD_05.html

--- <ecmillerreid@...> wrote:

> I have read on many occasions that too much iodine can worse

> Hasimoto's -- in fact in one study they actually found that iodine

> restriction normalized thyroid function in Hashimoto's. I'll send

> the pdf to Zoe.

>

> Liz

> On Apr 23, 2006, at 10:23 PM, Ross wrote:

>

> > That's the situation. Saying that the iodine caused the antibodies

> > is obviously not justified, but it is a bit of a coincidence, isn't

> > it? On the recent test, my anti-Tg was about 50 (range <20), not

> > terribly high, but on the 2 previous tests I was below the

> > detection range on both anti-Tg and anti-TPO. Also 2 ultrasounds

> > and an uptake scan were normal, but I had the throat bulgy feeling

> > back then (and still do).

> >

> > So, draw what conclusions you can from that. I'm a mystery man...

> >

> > -- prr

> >

> > <kennio@...> wrote:

> > So you were hypothyroid and were taking thyroid hormone for three

> > years or more

> > with no sign of antibodies until you started taking iodine, is that

> > right?

> >

> > I thought antibodies were always present when you have

> > Hashimoto's. The

> > antibodies don't go to zero when the thyroid is treated with

> > hormone, right?

> > Mine never did.

> >

> >

> > --- Ross <p_r_ross@...> wrote:

> >

> > > Well, I have tested negative for antibodies for 3 years or so.

> > The last test

> > > (a couple months ago) was finally positive for Tg. I had started

> > iodine a

> > > few weeks earlier, so that could be what finally put me " on the

> > charts " , or

> > > it could just be that thyroid blood tests suck, and they often

> > take years to

> > > catch up with the symptoms.

> > >

> > > -- prr

> > >

> > > jgarcia3788 <jgarcia3788@...> wrote: Hi all,

> > > Is there anyone out there with Hashi's/thyroid antibodies who

> > has been

> > > taking iodine (e.g. Lugol's)? If so did you get a flare up of

> > symptoms?

> > >

> > > I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view seems to be

> > > that you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know that the

> > > iodine docs seem to think that you should.

> > >

> > > Many thanks,

> > > .

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

> The quotes below from Guy E. Abraham, MD are what got me into this;

> trying to reverse my Hashimoto's. So yes there are many studies

> that say iodine worsens hashimoto's. However, being iodine

> deficient and restricting iodine for any reason makes no sense to me.

,

the reasoning is that when you have Hashi's you want to restrict your

own production of thyroid and supplement with exogenous sources

(armour, synthetics etc.). For example according to the article here:

http://tinyurl.com/htl3s

" Troubles with the thyroid usually originate with the addition of the

four iodine molecules onto the tyrosine amino acid. A byproduct of

this reaction is the formation of deadly toxic peroxides. Peroxides

are the source of free radicals that can damage cell membranes in a

process called lipid peroxidation. Normally the thyroid protects

itself from lipid peroxidation with an enzyme that quickly chops these

deadly peroxides into harmless water. This crucial enzyme is called

glutathione peroxidase and if it is unable to fully neutralize the

peroxides made by the thyroid, then the peroxides can literally

" barbecue " the thyroid. This may eventually result in an under- or

over-active thyroid, which may or may not involve swelling of this

gland, which may or may not involve the immune system. "

Basically if your GSH-Px (glutathione peroxidase) status is poor, the

normal production of thyroid by the thyroid gland will damage the body

via lipid peroxidation. This may or may not involve antibodies, but

will certainly involve free radical damage.

There are 2 solutions:

1. Stop/lower the endogenous production of thyroid (i.e. limit iodine)

and supplement with exogenous sources (armour/synethetics etc.)

2. Reverse the poor GSH-Px status of the body.

Now 1 is a lot easier to do than 2 especially if there are intractable

outside agents involved in causing 2 - e.g. toxins, heavy metals such

as mercury. Reversing 2 is basically akin to saying reverse the

underlying condition, which is certainly the best thing to do

long-term, but may take a long time (e.g. mercury detoxification takes

years).

If someone could quickly/easily reverse their poor GSH-Px status (e.g.

if the underlying cause was simply nutritional deficiencies) then you

could certainly do this and resume taking iodine.

I don't know what your status is, but my status is that I'm unlikely

to be able to do 2 due to long-term mercury toxicity.

.

> " Inadequate iodine/iodide intake combined with goitrogens, not

excess iodide,

> is the cause of autoimmune thyroiditis. Last, the concept of

> orthoiodosupplementation is the safest and most effective method of

> supplementing patients with this essential trace element in amounts

for whole

> body

> sufficiency. "

>

> " It is of interest to note that prior to iodization of salt, autoimmune

> thyroiditis was almost non-existent in the US, although Lugol

solution and

> potassium iodide were used extensively in medical practice in

amounts two

> orders of magnitude greater than the average daily amount ingested

from iodized

> salt. This suggests that inadequate iodine intake aggravated by

goitrogens, not

> excess iodide, was the cause of this condition. To be discussed later,

> autoimmune thyroiditis cannot be induced by inorganic iodide in

laboratory

> animals unless combined with goitrogens, therefore inducing iodine

deficiency. "

>

> AND the biggy

>

> " Orthoiodosupplementation, combined with magnesium intake between

800-1,200

> mg/day, a daily amount this author recommended 21 years ago for

magnesium

> sufficiency, should reverse autoimmune thyroiditis. "

>

> From his mouth to god's ear.

[Guest guest]

I don't think I'd say that. Something was making me tired and achy and stupid for the last few years -- something that Armour made better. What I suspect is that the whole HPT system is several orders of magnitude more complicated than doctors give it credit for, and also that blood tests are just not that useful. They're like that old saying about measuring with a micrometer, marking with a crayon, and cutting with an axe. -- prr <kennio@...> wrote: What seems to be saying is that iodine GAVE him hashimoto's. He had no antibodies that would lead to a diagnosis of hashimoto's before taking iodine...he was simply hypothyroid. Does a person with hashimoto's ever have NO antibodies? I've have always been in the 40's. ---

<ecmillerreid@...> wrote: > I have read on many occasions that too much iodine can worse > Hasimoto's -- in fact in one study they actually found that iodine > restriction normalized thyroid function in Hashimoto's. I'll send > the pdf to Zoe. > > Liz > On Apr 23, 2006, at 10:23 PM, Ross wrote: > > > That's the situation. Saying that the iodine caused the antibodies > > is obviously not justified, but it is a bit of a coincidence, isn't > > it? On the recent test, my anti-Tg was about 50 (range <20), not > > terribly high, but on the 2 previous tests I was below the > > detection range on both anti-Tg and anti-TPO. Also 2 ultrasounds > > and an uptake scan were normal, but I had the throat bulgy feeling > > back then

(and still do). > > > > So, draw what conclusions you can from that. I'm a mystery man... > > > > -- prr > > > > <kennio@...> wrote: > > So you were hypothyroid and were taking thyroid hormone for three > > years or more > > with no sign of antibodies until you started taking iodine, is that > > right? > > > > I thought antibodies were always present when you have > > Hashimoto's. The > > antibodies don't go to zero when the thyroid is treated with > > hormone, right? > > Mine never did. > > > > > > --- Ross <p_r_ross@...> wrote: > > > > > Well, I have tested negative for antibodies for 3 years or so. > > The last test > > > (a

couple months ago) was finally positive for Tg. I had started > > iodine a > > > few weeks earlier, so that could be what finally put me "on the > > charts", or > > > it could just be that thyroid blood tests suck, and they often > > take years to > > > catch up with the symptoms. > > > > > > -- prr > > > > > > jgarcia3788 <jgarcia3788@...> wrote: Hi all, > > > Is there anyone out there with Hashi's/thyroid antibodies who > > has been > > > taking iodine (e.g. Lugol's)? If so did you get a flare up of > > symptoms? > > > > > > I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view seems to be > > > that you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know that

the > > > iodine docs seem to think that you should. > > > > > > Many thanks, > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Ok, I am going to get my antibodies checked. I checked just before I started

Iodine. If would respond to the question I've asked a couple

times...whether his increase in antibodies was shown through blood tests or

just speculation on his part. Maybe we can determine if there is a pattern

going on here. I honestly would be very suprised if my antibodies are up since

I feel so good.

Also ... Do your brothers, sisters, parents have Hashimoto's?

--- Ross <p_r_ross@...> wrote:

> I don't think I'd say that. Something was making me tired and achy and

> stupid for the last few years -- something that Armour made better. What I

> suspect is that the whole HPT system is several orders of magnitude more

> complicated than doctors give it credit for, and also that blood tests are

> just not that useful. They're like that old saying about measuring with a

> micrometer, marking with a crayon, and cutting with an axe.

>

> -- prr

>

> <kennio@...> wrote: What seems to be saying is that

> iodine GAVE him hashimoto's. He had no

> antibodies that would lead to a diagnosis of hashimoto's before taking

> iodine...he was simply hypothyroid. Does a person with hashimoto's ever

> have

> NO antibodies? I've have always been in the 40's.

>

> --- <ecmillerreid@...> wrote:

>

> > I have read on many occasions that too much iodine can worse

> > Hasimoto's -- in fact in one study they actually found that iodine

> > restriction normalized thyroid function in Hashimoto's. I'll send

> > the pdf to Zoe.

> >

> > Liz

> > On Apr 23, 2006, at 10:23 PM, Ross wrote:

> >

> > > That's the situation. Saying that the iodine caused the antibodies

> > > is obviously not justified, but it is a bit of a coincidence, isn't

> > > it? On the recent test, my anti-Tg was about 50 (range <20), not

> > > terribly high, but on the 2 previous tests I was below the

> > > detection range on both anti-Tg and anti-TPO. Also 2 ultrasounds

> > > and an uptake scan were normal, but I had the throat bulgy feeling

> > > back then (and still do).

> > >

> > > So, draw what conclusions you can from that. I'm a mystery man...

> > >

> > > -- prr

> > >

> > > <kennio@...> wrote:

> > > So you were hypothyroid and were taking thyroid hormone for three

> > > years or more

> > > with no sign of antibodies until you started taking iodine, is that

> > > right?

> > >

> > > I thought antibodies were always present when you have

> > > Hashimoto's. The

> > > antibodies don't go to zero when the thyroid is treated with

> > > hormone, right?

> > > Mine never did.

> > >

> > >

> > > --- Ross <p_r_ross@...> wrote:

> > >

> > > > Well, I have tested negative for antibodies for 3 years or so.

> > > The last test

> > > > (a couple months ago) was finally positive for Tg. I had started

> > > iodine a

> > > > few weeks earlier, so that could be what finally put me " on the

> > > charts " , or

> > > > it could just be that thyroid blood tests suck, and they often

> > > take years to

> > > > catch up with the symptoms.

> > > >

> > > > -- prr

> > > >

> > > > jgarcia3788 <jgarcia3788@...> wrote: Hi all,

> > > > Is there anyone out there with Hashi's/thyroid antibodies who

> > > has been

> > > > taking iodine (e.g. Lugol's)? If so did you get a flare up of

> > > symptoms?

> > > >

> > > > I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view seems to be

> > > > that you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know that the

> > > > iodine docs seem to think that you should.

> > > >

> > > > Many thanks,

> > > > .

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Not that I know of. My brother has been having panic attacks, but won't do anything about them. Since this was one of my symptoms also (adrenal, presumably), I suspect he may be in the same boat as me. What boat that is precisely, I have no idea. It was actually a relief for me to test positive for hashi's, because now at least I have something that proves I wasn't crazy all those years. Well, at least that I was right in addition to being crazy. -- prr <kennio@...> wrote: Also ... Do your brothers, sisters, parents have Hashimoto's?

New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

[Guest guest]

,

if I had labs I would have posted them. Clearly I was giving my

subjective opinion based on symptoms. Perhaps I should have stuck to

using the term thyroiditis and not referring to antibodies (whether

thyroiditis is caused by free radicals, or antibodies, or both is

anyones guess).

If you feel good on supplementation then I would take that as a good

guide that its working for you. My bet is that your labs will support

this.

.

> Ok, I am going to get my antibodies checked. I checked just before

I started

> Iodine. If would respond to the question I've asked a couple

> times...whether his increase in antibodies was shown through blood

tests or

> just speculation on his part. Maybe we can determine if there is a

pattern

> going on here. I honestly would be very suprised if my antibodies

are up since

> I feel so good.

>

> Also ... Do your brothers, sisters, parents have Hashimoto's?

>

> --- Ross <p_r_ross@...> wrote:

>

> > I don't think I'd say that. Something was making me tired and

achy and

> > stupid for the last few years -- something that Armour made

better. What I

> > suspect is that the whole HPT system is several orders of

magnitude more

> > complicated than doctors give it credit for, and also that blood

tests are

> > just not that useful. They're like that old saying about

measuring with a

> > micrometer, marking with a crayon, and cutting with an axe.

> >

> > -- prr

> >

> > <kennio@...> wrote: What seems to be saying is that

> > iodine GAVE him hashimoto's. He had no

> > antibodies that would lead to a diagnosis of hashimoto's before

taking

> > iodine...he was simply hypothyroid. Does a person with

hashimoto's ever

> > have

> > NO antibodies? I've have always been in the 40's.

> >

> > --- <ecmillerreid@...> wrote:

> >

> > > I have read on many occasions that too much iodine can worse

> > > Hasimoto's -- in fact in one study they actually found that

iodine

> > > restriction normalized thyroid function in Hashimoto's. I'll

send

> > > the pdf to Zoe.

> > >

> > > Liz

> > > On Apr 23, 2006, at 10:23 PM, Ross wrote:

> > >

> > > > That's the situation. Saying that the iodine caused the

antibodies

> > > > is obviously not justified, but it is a bit of a

coincidence, isn't

> > > > it? On the recent test, my anti-Tg was about 50 (range

<20), not

> > > > terribly high, but on the 2 previous tests I was below the

> > > > detection range on both anti-Tg and anti-TPO. Also 2

ultrasounds

> > > > and an uptake scan were normal, but I had the throat bulgy

feeling

> > > > back then (and still do).

> > > >

> > > > So, draw what conclusions you can from that. I'm a mystery

man...

> > > >

> > > > -- prr

> > > >

> > > > <kennio@...> wrote:

> > > > So you were hypothyroid and were taking thyroid hormone for

three

> > > > years or more

> > > > with no sign of antibodies until you started taking iodine,

is that

> > > > right?

> > > >

> > > > I thought antibodies were always present when you have

> > > > Hashimoto's. The

> > > > antibodies don't go to zero when the thyroid is treated with

> > > > hormone, right?

> > > > Mine never did.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > --- Ross <p_r_ross@...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Well, I have tested negative for antibodies for 3 years or

so.

> > > > The last test

> > > > > (a couple months ago) was finally positive for Tg. I had

started

> > > > iodine a

> > > > > few weeks earlier, so that could be what finally put me

" on the

> > > > charts " , or

> > > > > it could just be that thyroid blood tests suck, and they

often

> > > > take years to

> > > > > catch up with the symptoms.

> > > > >

> > > > > -- prr

> > > > >

> > > > > jgarcia3788 <jgarcia3788@...> wrote: Hi all,

> > > > > Is there anyone out there with Hashi's/thyroid antibodies

who

> > > > has been

> > > > > taking iodine (e.g. Lugol's)? If so did you get a flare

up of

> > > > symptoms?

> > > > >

> > > > > I've read contradictory information - the orthodox view

seems to be

> > > > > that you shouldn't take iodine with Hashi's, but I know

that the

> > > > > iodine docs seem to think that you should.

> > > > >

> > > > > Many thanks,

> > > > > .

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

As you know it tends to run in families. I had the panic attacks before my

thyroid problem was diagnosed. My experience was that it was caused by

magnesium deficiency... which in turn was caused by untreated hypothyroidism.

I am saturated with magnesium now after learning the quirks involved in raising

levels and I couldn't have a panic attack if I tried now. The sleep

disturbances are over with except an occasional jolt if I take a new supplement

or try something new.

http://thyroid.about.com/b/a/172897.htm

--- Ross <p_r_ross@...> wrote:

> Not that I know of. My brother has been having panic attacks, but won't do

> anything about them. Since this was one of my symptoms also (adrenal,

> presumably), I suspect he may be in the same boat as me. What boat that is

> precisely, I have no idea. It was actually a relief for me to test positive

> for hashi's, because now at least I have something that proves I wasn't

> crazy all those years. Well, at least that I was right in addition to being

> crazy.

>

> -- prr

>

>

> <kennio@...> wrote:

> Also ... Do your brothers, sisters, parents have Hashimoto's?

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save

big.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> From: " " kennio@...

>So you were hypothyroid and were taking thyroid hormone for three years or

>more

>with no sign of antibodies until you started taking iodine, is that right?

>

>I thought antibodies were always present when you have Hashimoto's. The

>antibodies don't go to zero when the thyroid is treated with hormone,

>right?

>Mine never did.

According to thyroidmanager.org, a very technical but good thyroid site,

antibodies resolve on their own in about 25% of cases. Beyond that, in many

cases antibodies go down or disappear with thyroid treatment. However, many

doctors don't bother testing to see the antibodies go down because they say

the treatment is the same regardless. In some cases, the antibodies go away

with adrenal support (hydrocortisone.)

There was an article I read summarized by a medical college. It talked

about someone who historically came in to the ER in adrenal crises. He

historically had high Hashi's titers, but after treatment for the adrenal

crises (some course of steroids I can't recall) he only needed the adrenal

support for a short time and afterward his Hashi's antibodies were also

gone.

I would think if you have antibodies, and they don't go down with treatment,

the treatment is probably not right for you. Many doctors limited to one

treatment approaches like Synthroid only. Many don't know about the

adrenals until you reach the adrenal crises of 's.

Skipper

_________________________________________________________________

FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!

http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Interesting. I'm at 600 mg of mag glycinate, but I'm undecided about the results. I did try a epsom bath, after 4 days of skiing (!) and it seemed to help my muscles some. I'm going to read your article tomorrow, thanks!-- prr <kennio@...> wrote: As you know it tends to run in families. I had the panic attacks before my thyroid problem was diagnosed. My experience was that it was caused by magnesium deficiency... which in turn was caused by untreated hypothyroidism. I am saturated with magnesium now after learning the quirks involved in raising levels and I couldn't have a panic attack if I tried now. The sleep disturbances are over with except an occasional jolt if I take a new supplement or try something new. http://thyroid.about.com/b/a/172897.htm --- Ross <p_r_ross@...> wrote: > Not that I know of. My brother has been having panic attacks, but won't do > anything about them. Since this was one of my symptoms also (adrenal, > presumably), I suspect he may be in the same boat as me. What boat that is > precisely, I have no idea. It was actually a relief for me to test positive > for hashi's, because now at least I have something that proves I wasn't > crazy all those years. Well, at least that I was right in addition to being > crazy. > > -- prr > > > <kennio@...> wrote: > Also ... Do your brothers, sisters, parents have

Hashimoto's? > > > > > --------------------------------- > New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. __________________________________________________