Re: selenium and supplements

[Guest guest]

>From: " cbwillis9 " <cbwillis9@...>

>Selenium is like iodine in that it causes the thyroid to *produce*,

>which can then be attacked by thyroid antibodies in some ppl with

>Hashi or Graves.

I thought it was actually the thyroid tissue that was attacked, not the

thyroid hormone.

Also, I didn't think selenium caused the thyroid to produce, but that it

helped to convert T4 to T3.

In high amounts, it can cause hyperthyroid

>in some, hypo in others (the body's attempt to protect itself

>against a hyper state). Some selenium is important, but too much

>is....too much, for the individual.

True, but the question becomes what amount is safe. And part of that

depends on the area of the country they're from. After all, in some places

it's in the water supply.

In places like the historic goiter belt, which particularly includes the

Great Lakes, selenium is quite deficient.

>I don't think we should be routinely taking mineral supplements

>in very high amounts.

Maybe not. But, on the other hand, if you live in the right area, you're

exposed to high amounts of the supplement in its natural form. (Granted it's

like better.) For example, living by the ocean, you automatically are

exposed to much more iodine. If you live in South America, you can eat

Brazil Nuts and be exposed to a lot of selenium.

So, high levels of a mineral or vitamin may not be that unusual.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

>

> >From: " cbwillis9 " <cbwillis9@...>

> >Selenium is like iodine in that it causes the thyroid to

> >*produce*,

> >which can then be attacked by thyroid antibodies in some ppl with

> >Hashi or Graves.

" Skipper Beers " <lsb149@...> wrote:

> I thought it was actually the thyroid tissue that was attacked,

> not the thyroid hormone.

Sorry for the ambiguous reference above. Thyroid antibodies attack

the thyroid and therefore affect it's localized output *at the

site*. Antibodies do not attack *circulating* thyroid from thyroid

meds.

> Also, I didn't think selenium caused the thyroid to produce, but

> that it helped to convert T4 to T3.

My sense and experience is that does both, and that's largely the

anti-cancer benefit of selenium, ultimately more T3, therefore

better cell differentiation.

I'm one of the rare people whose thyroid are visibly inflamed when

I take too much iodine or selenium, all the antibodies come

of the woodwork. My sense is the antibodies are attacking not only

the thyroid but the local output.

> In high amounts, it can cause hyperthyroid

> >in some, hypo in others (the body's attempt to protect itself

> >against a hyper state). Some selenium is important, but too much

> >is....too much, for the individual.

>

> True, but the question becomes what amount is safe. And part of

>that

> depends on the area of the country they're from. After all, in

>some places

> it's in the water supply.

What is safe may depend somewhat on geography, but also at least

as much on the individual.

While we're talking geography, let's talk about perchlorates

and PCBs which are endocrine disruptors, and depending on how

the body reacts to Hashi, may make iodine and selenium

supplementing very squirrely and individualized. That's why I

recommend muscle testing supplements, see my article* in my

archives for details.

Where I've gone the most wrong with supplements is where I went

ahead *thinking* something must surely be needed or good for me,

when muscle testing said it wasn't. All that ended up validating

the muscle testing even more. That's the long way around to prove

some things to yourself. :-)

> In places like the historic goiter belt, which particularly

>includes the

> Great Lakes, selenium is quite deficient.

Food is grown and ttucked from various places. Few Americans

have been growing all their own food since a hundred years--

or more now.

> >I don't think we should be routinely taking mineral supplements

> >in very high amounts.

>

> Maybe not. But, on the other hand, if you live in the right

> area, you're

> exposed to high amounts of the supplement in its natural form. >

(Granted it's

> like better.) For example, living by the ocean, you

> automatically are

> exposed to much more iodine. If you live in South America, you

> can eat Brazil Nuts and be exposed to a lot of selenium.

One Brazil nut supplies your daily selenium needs. Most Americans

have access to Brazil nuts, even if they have to go to a whole foods

grocery or mail order to get them.

How many Brazil nuts is a person going to eat daily if they

have easy access? probably *no more than* a half dozen nuts

or a handful every single day 24/7/365,

which would bring the selenium amount up to a high supplement

level.

Euthyroid people may have no problem with this, or at least not

right away, but some with Hashi and Graves will.

> So, high levels of a mineral or vitamin may not be that unusual.

>

> Skipper

Brazil nuts are far and away one of the highest sources of selenium,

along with algae and salmon. Not too many people are eating all

these daily, or lots of any one of them daily. And I daresay most

people don't eat these foods but rarely, and then not on the same

day.

Carol

willis_protocols

My article archive in Files for members, blog, Links,

non-commercial, not a discussion group.

Muscle Testing article available.

[Guest guest]

>From: " cbwillis9 " <cbwillis9@...>

> >

>Sorry for the ambiguous reference above. Thyroid antibodies attack

>the thyroid and therefore affect it's localized output *at the

>site*. Antibodies do not attack *circulating* thyroid from thyroid

>meds.

And per Arem's book, at least 10% of Hashi's cases have antibodies that are

not detectable, possibly because there is no test for them, but this is

known because the damage to thyroid can be seen by ultrasound (or other

means, I'm not sure what he said was used.)

>

>While we're talking geography, let's talk about perchlorates

>and PCBs which are endocrine disruptors, and depending on how

>the body reacts to Hashi, may make iodine and selenium

>supplementing very squirrely and individualized. That's why I

>recommend muscle testing supplements, see my article* in my

>archives for details.

Mercury in fillings MIGHT be a factor too. If one has high levels of

mercury from fillings or other sources, it's likely they can tolerate more

selenium, as it aids in detoxifying the mercury.

It's doubtful, but I've wondered if fish have high selenium because some

mercury was normal to their environment. I'm sure today's levels were never

normal.

>Where I've gone the most wrong with supplements is where I went

>ahead *thinking* something must surely be needed or good for me,

>when muscle testing said it wasn't. All that ended up validating

>the muscle testing even more. That's the long way around to prove

>some things to yourself. :-)

I know people benefit from different supplements, and what's good for one

person may or may not be good for another.

>

>Food is grown and ttucked from various places. Few Americans

>have been growing all their own food since a hundred years--

>or more now.

I suspect our grocery stores have proportionately more foods from the

surrounding areas, but I could be wrong. Also, that's another downside as

that means we are exposed to perchlorates from the Colorado River system,

PBB and PCBs from Michigan, mercury from everywhere, fluoride from

pesticides, and DDT from foreign countries where they allow it.

>How many Brazil nuts is a person going to eat daily if they

>have easy access? probably *no more than* a half dozen nuts

>or a handful every single day 24/7/365,

>which would bring the selenium amount up to a high supplement

>level.

>Euthyroid people may have no problem with this, or at least not

>right away, but some with Hashi and Graves will.

I would expect in the natural world (hunter gatherer days) they would have

eaten the easy to get food in quantities as large as they could stand. I

don't know whether they ripen throughout the year, or just one particular

season. Many natives would make nuts into flour,so they may have been

exposed to it daily, and maybe quite a bit.

It also depends on where the Brazil Nut comes from if it has high levels of

selenium or not.

Eating whole foods, is not nearly as likely to be toxic as taking a

supplement. I do know that overdosing on selenium (which some say over

400mg) can have serious side effects.

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

> Mercury in fillings MIGHT be a factor too.

Mercury toxicity is a very well known thyroid endocrine disruptor,

especially well known in Europe among alt med professionals

there. Some European countries were the first to ban mercury in

dental fillings.

>If one has high levels of

> mercury from fillings or other sources, it's likely they can

> tolerate more

> selenium, as it aids in detoxifying the mercury.

I don't think this follows.

While selenium might be helpful in detox, it does not necessarily

follow that one could tolerate more of it.

Mercury detox is no simple matter. Detoxing often just

moves mercury around. When it comes to mercury, the best

detox is still prevention as far as possible.

Carol

[Guest guest]

> >If one has high levels of

> > mercury from fillings or other sources, it's likely they can

> > tolerate more

> > selenium, as it aids in detoxifying the mercury.

>

>

> I don't think this follows.

>

> While selenium might be helpful in detox, it does not necessarily

> follow that one could tolerate more of it.

Have a theory, one can usually find support for it. I've been

wondering a long time whether mercury was more common in fish even

without pollution than we expect, and selenium in the fish negates it.

(NOTE, I am not saying feel free to eat fish regardless of mercury

content, I'm just speculating.) I have no real idea if that's true,

but here's a theory and it does explain why we would be able to take

more selenium, might even need more selenium, if we have mercury issue

as selenium and mercury bind to each other to make them both inactive -

http://www.fishscam.com/fSelenium.cfm

The more recent selenium hypothesis holds that mercury takes a more

active role in the relationship. Under this theory, when mercury

enters the body it seeks out selenium and takes it out of circulation,

preventing the body from creating enzymes that depend on selenium to

perform their functions. Enzymes are special proteins that control the

various steps in chemical reactions that make life possible. Without

enough selenium-based enzymes, the functions of the brain and other

organs can be affected.

While this might sound scary, problems can only occur if we don't get

enough selenium to counteract the trace amounts of mercury in the fish

we eat. And fish are so rich in selenium that this is not likely to

happen. The U.S. Department of Agriculture has measured selenium

levels in more than 1,000 commonly consumed foods, and 16 of the 25

best sources of dietary selenium are ocean fish. University of North

Dakota environmental scientist Dr. Ralston is an expert on

the relationship between selenium and mercury. Here's how he describes it:

**************************

Here again, this talks about selenium and mercury making each other

inactive -

http://www.ithyroid.com/mercury.htm

Title

Mercury/selenium interaction. A comparative study on pigs.

Author

Hansen JC; sen P; Al-Masri SN

Source

Nord Vet Med, 33(2):57-64 1981 Feb

Abstract

A pilot experiment carried out on three pigs have confirmed that

interaction between inorganic mercury (203HgCl2) and selenium

(Na275SeO3) after single intraperitoneal injections are qualitatively

uniform in mice and pigs. The detoxifying effect of selenium on

mercury toxicity seems to be due to a formation of a biologically

inactive complex containing the elements in an equimolar ratio.

***************************************************

Maybe you don't think the concept " follows " but it's not far fetched.

Even before pollution, some lakes were high in mercury.

> Mercury detox is no simple matter. Detoxing often just

> moves mercury around. When it comes to mercury, the best

> detox is still prevention as far as possible.

Of course, prevention is best.

Selenium binds mercury, so it's helpful for detox.

Cholesterol helps escort mercury from the body. Have low cholesterol?

Then you are more likely to have serious effects from mercury -

http://www.consultclarity.com/blazing/dental.html

Elemental mercury vapor that emanates from amalgams is almost

completely inhaled. It easily crosses the blood/brain barrier (the

brain and nervous system's natural defense against many toxic

substances). It subsequently binds very strongly to the

sulfur-containing proteins of the nervous tissue.

" The same affinity for binding sulphur allows its deposit in virtually

all of the body's other tissues and organs. In fact, the much-maligned

scapegoat in today's health, cholesterol, appears to actually afford a

protective mechanism against the slow and insidious release of mercury

into the bloodstream by binding it up and allowing it to be excreted

before it gets its grips into any of the body's tissues. High

cholesterol levels may represent just a healthy metabolism doing its

best to neutralize the continual release of a toxin. Patients who

undergo amalgam removal consistently show shifts of their cholesterol

into or toward the normal range, often within days of such removal. "

**************************************

So, if one has mercury, and it deactivates selenium, it " follows " to

me that one could use more.

One does have to be careful of taking too much -

http://www.springboard4health.com/notebook/min_selenium.html

Human toxicity has not been conclusively determined but is considered

to occur as a result of high industrial exposure. The salt form of

selenium (sodium selenite) is toxic at relatively low levels, while

the amino acid form (selenomethionine or selenocysteine) may be safely

ingested at levels up to 1,000 mcg for an adult. There have been cases

of vitamin companies putting large doses of the salt form of selenium

into their product causing grave health problems among those who have

taken the product. Reported symptoms of toxicity include hair loss,

depigmentation of skin, abnormal nails, and weariness. A garlic odor

on the breath, without garlic ingestion, may be an indication of

selenium toxicity.

*************************************

Skipper

[Guest guest]

Back when I was in college, in the 1960s, I remember reading an

article about how the sonian took a sample of tuna from a mounted

specimen which was hanging on a museum wall. The tuna fish had been

on the wall for 100 years. When they analysed the sample, they found

the same Mercury levels in the fish from the mid-1800s as was in fish

caught in the 1960s. So it would seem that Mercury was in fish

before polution.

Alobar

On 6/29/06, lsb149 <lsb149@...> wrote:

>

>

> > >If one has high levels of

> > > mercury from fillings or other sources, it's likely they can

> > > tolerate more

> > > selenium, as it aids in detoxifying the mercury.

> >

> >

> > I don't think this follows.

> >

> > While selenium might be helpful in detox, it does not necessarily

> > follow that one could tolerate more of it.

>

> Have a theory, one can usually find support for it. I've been

> wondering a long time whether mercury was more common in fish even

> without pollution than we expect, and selenium in the fish negates it.

> (NOTE, I am not saying feel free to eat fish regardless of mercury

> content, I'm just speculating.) I have no real idea if that's true,

> but here's a theory and it does explain why we would be able to take

> more selenium, might even need more selenium, if we have mercury issue

> as selenium and mercury bind to each other to make them both inactive -

[Guest guest]

I would hardly say, mid 1800's was before pollution. The major source of

mercury pollution is coal burning which they were doing a lot of back

then.

Irene

At 06:31 PM 6/29/2006, you wrote:

Back when I was in college, in

the 1960s, I remember reading an

article about how the sonian took a sample of tuna from a

mounted

specimen which was hanging on a museum wall. The tuna fish had been

on the wall for 100 years. When they analysed the sample, they found

the same Mercury levels in the fish from the mid-1800s as was in

fish

caught in the 1960s. So it would seem that Mercury was in fish

before polution.

Alobar

On 6/29/06, lsb149

<lsb149@...>

wrote:

>

>

> > >If one has high levels of

> > > mercury from fillings or other sources, it's likely they

can

> > > tolerate more

> > > selenium, as it aids in detoxifying the mercury.

> >

> >

> > I don't think this follows.

> >

> > While selenium might be helpful in detox, it does not

necessarily

> > follow that one could tolerate more of it.

>

> Have a theory, one can usually find support for it. I've been

> wondering a long time whether mercury was more common in fish

even

> without pollution than we expect, and selenium in the fish negates

it.

> (NOTE, I am not saying feel free to eat fish regardless of

mercury

> content, I'm just speculating.) I have no real idea if that's

true,

> but here's a theory and it does explain why we would be able to

take

> more selenium, might even need more selenium, if we have mercury

issue

> as selenium and mercury bind to each other to make them both

inactive -

[Guest guest]

>

> Back when I was in college, in the 1960s, I remember reading an

> article about how the sonian took a sample of tuna from a mounted

> specimen which was hanging on a museum wall. The tuna fish had been

> on the wall for 100 years. When they analysed the sample, they found

> the same Mercury levels in the fish from the mid-1800s as was in fish

> caught in the 1960s. So it would seem that Mercury was in fish

> before polution.

I'm not saying mercury in fish is harmless, however being curious I've

wondered -

*Is it a coincidence that selenium protects from mercury toxicity, and

fish have more selenium than anything other than Brazil Nuts? If it

has natual protection from mercury, it might make sense that's because

it's natural to its environment.

*Fish too heavily, and fish will become hard to find. So, a reason

not to eat fish helps avoid overfishing.

*In the Great Lakes, they have other reasons to avoid the fish.Is this

also to prevent over fishing? According to the " Practical Sportsman "

TV show, a charter boat captain who ate more fish than was

recommended, and far more than the average person showed no unusual

readings for toxins as compared to the general population. His wife,

however, had a significant level of DDT. It turns out this is common

for people who grew up on farms.

Should we eat the fish? I don't know, but I keep going back to that

thought about high selenium content to offset the mercury.

I also go back to the concept that when they try to scare us away from

eating things, they're usually wrong.

Skipper

[Guest guest]

Hi Karin, I've been eating my brazil nuts too so your post was very

interesting. Looks like its worked great for you! Hopefully for me

too.

Thanks,

Sharon

>

> I have been adding 5 chopped brazil nuts to my morning muesli for

months. I

> do not take any separate selenium

> supplement. My doctor checked my selenium level this month and it

was 322

> (with range being 100-340).

> Karin

[Guest guest]

remember to keep them in the fridge otherwise they

can spoil quickly and reverse any benefit.

Karin

GUHDO USA Inc. 1135 JVL Court Marietta, GA 30066 770-592-4766 (phone) 770-592-1714 (fax) www.guhdo.com

-----Original Message-----From: iodine [mailto:iodine ]On Behalf Of sharflinSent: Friday, June 30, 2006 2:27 PMiodine Subject: Re: selenium and supplements

Hi Karin, I've been eating my brazil nuts too so your post was very interesting. Looks like its worked great for you! Hopefully for me too. Thanks,Sharon>> I have been adding 5 chopped brazil nuts to my morning muesli for months. I> do not take any separate selenium> supplement. My doctor checked my selenium level this month and it was 322> (with range being 100-340).> Karin

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