Re: EtG risk factors/research

November 28, 2006

i think you are correct in theory about risk factors for false positive EtG,nancy...for me after being on the site for almost 2 years the really high false postitives the top three seem to be... 1)tylenol/hydrocodone drug of choice use over years greater than 4 grams/da causing oxidative liver injury so that when endogenous etoh presents upregulation to EtG occurs... 2)female gender...produce less adh therefore endogenous etoh goes more to EtG conjugation... 3)drugs that block liver oxidative pathways...tricyclics,seroquel,tylenol again,some antibiotcs,tagamet,really anything broken down mostly by the liver will increase EtG... the real hidden question is how much endogenous etoh we all absorb and ferment, without consumption.the UAE study table one would suggest virtually anyone

without consumption might rarely make up to 3.5mg/dl of etoh which should produce EtG up to a 350 ng/ml even without factors above which would account for a lot of the low positives... i think a large study breaking out 3 groups above with a control group on the model of the uae study adding EtG values to etoh values would be the only way to confirm these ideas with research...and then comes the big question...who would fund such a study?..excellent post nancy,food for thought,just my whatever...regards,r nautiques5 <nautiques5@...> wrote: Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason for positives other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants to play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the tylenol, medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose a graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the women peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back again to the study where two positives were found in placebo groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue,

body weight would also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS did research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one FEMALE which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so I guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe explains WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not being petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and unresearched posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our ideas to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!)

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November 28, 2006

just out of curiosity is there anyone onr this site with high false positive EtG,say over 1000ng/ml who did not take apap/hydrocodone pills 8 pills per day or more for weeks months or years?...inotherwords any pure alcoholics on the site who did not also ingest apap(tylenol) more than 8 pills/day?thanks,regards,rrobin murray <remurraymd@...> wrote: i think you are correct in theory about risk factors for false positive EtG,nancy...for me after being on the site for almost 2 years the really high false postitives the top three seem to be... 1)tylenol/hydrocodone drug of choice use over years greater than 4 grams/da causing oxidative liver injury so that when endogenous etoh presents upregulation to EtG occurs... 2)female gender...produce less adh therefore endogenous etoh goes more to EtG conjugation... 3)drugs that block liver oxidative pathways...tricyclics,seroquel,tylenol again,some antibiotcs,tagamet,really anything broken down mostly by the liver will increase EtG... the real hidden question is how much endogenous etoh we all absorb and ferment, without consumption.the UAE study table one would suggest virtually anyone without consumption might rarely make up to 3.5mg/dl of etoh which should

produce EtG up to a 350 ng/ml even without factors above which would account for a lot of the low positives... i think a large study breaking out 3 groups above with a control group on the model of the uae study adding EtG values to etoh values would be the only way to confirm these ideas with research...and then comes the big question...who would fund such a study?..excellent post nancy,food for thought,just my whatever...regards,r nautiques5 <nautiques5 > wrote: Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason for positives other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants to play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has taken the focus

off of a lot of other things....such as the tylenol, medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose a graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the women peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back again to the study where two positives were found in placebo groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight would also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS did research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one FEMALE which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so I guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe explains WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not being petite

in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and unresearched posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our ideas to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!) Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.

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November 28, 2006

I agree Robin, so many things need that research done. Can colleges

with a lab use it like they do their car or machine shop? Somebody

bring in a project to the teacher/class and they take it on for a

small fee or just the knowledge from doing it.

One more question. Were you saying that a Lortab (Tylenol) would not

just show a positive hydromorphone result, but a possible positive

Ethyl Glucuronide too?

Thanks

> Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason

for positives

> other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants

to

> play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has

> taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the

tylenol,

> medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is

> gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose a

> graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the

women

> peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in

> women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will

> tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back

> again to the study where two positives were found in placebo

> groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight would

> also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS

did

> research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one FEMALE

> which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so I

> guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe explains

> WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not being

> petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and

unresearched

> posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this

> push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our

ideas

> to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the

> tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!)

>

> ---------------------------------

> Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.

>

November 28, 2006

After I sent the last post I called the lab dept. at our college. He

said they just got the LS/MS machine and that he would do screens for

us for free on the side. So I would urge others to maybe try

contacting local colleges. This might be fun.

> > Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason

> for positives

> > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants

> to

> > play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has

> > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the

> tylenol,

> > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is

> > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose

a

> > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the

> women

> > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in

> > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research

will

> > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go

back

> > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo

> > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight

would

> > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS

> did

> > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one

FEMALE

> > which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so

I

> > guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe

explains

> > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not

being

> > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and

> unresearched

> > posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in

this

> > push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our

> ideas

> > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the

> > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!)

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small

Business.

> >

>

November 28, 2006

brandon lots of folks on this site with high EtG's have ingested lots of tylenol/apap/ acetominophen with opiates they took of which lortab,vicodin,etc.posts on the site have demonstrated oxidative liver injury occurs with chronic ingestion of as little as 6-8 pills..we think that if the oxidative systems are damaged the old non oxidative liver systems take over the breakdown forming lots more EtG.ingesting tylenol without opiates can increase it too per nancy who noted this long ago... i feel that a small study would not be helpful.a big study like the UAE study 3500 subjects or so done with federal funds,or grant money would be ideal\ as lorie noted the labs will not kill the goose that peed the golden EtG test so odds are not good for research because labs would not benefit...regards,r.

<wheelofadeal@...> wrote: I agree Robin, so many things need that research done. Can colleges with a lab use it like they do their car or machine shop? Somebody bring in a project to the teacher/class and they take it on for a small fee or just the knowledge from doing it.One more question. Were you saying that a Lortab (Tylenol) would not just show a positive hydromorphone result, but a possible positive Ethyl Glucuronide too?Thanks> Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason for positives > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants to > play match maker for me!!

Anyway, this whole purell thing has > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the tylenol, > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose a > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the women > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight would > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS did > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one FEMALE > which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so I > guess it is OK

to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe explains > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not being > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and unresearched > posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this > push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our ideas > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!) > > > > > > > ---------------------------------> Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.>

Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.

November 28, 2006

Another question. What kind of info would he need to do the screen

exactly as the labs? He has never heard of the EtG, so any info I can

get to help him get started would be great.

Thanks

> > > Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the

reason

> > for positives

> > > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one

wants

> > to

> > > play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing

has

> > > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the

> > tylenol,

> > > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is

> > > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you

superimpose

> a

> > > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the

> > women

> > > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher

in

> > > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research

> will

> > > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go

> back

> > > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo

> > > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight

> would

> > > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when

NMS

> > did

> > > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one

> FEMALE

> > > which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very

petite...so

> I

> > > guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe

> explains

> > > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not

> being

> > > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and

> > unresearched

> > > posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in

> this

> > > push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our

> > ideas

> > > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the

> > > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!)

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small

> Business.

> > >

> >

>

November 28, 2006

I agree, a big study would be the best. But maybe this could help in

testing certain products, to know what not to do?

> > Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason

> for positives

> > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants

> to

> > play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has

> > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the

> tylenol,

> > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is

> > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose

a

> > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the

> women

> > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in

> > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research

will

> > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go

back

> > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo

> > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight

would

> > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS

> did

> > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one

FEMALE

> > which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so

I

> > guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe

explains

> > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not

being

> > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and

> unresearched

> > posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in

this

> > push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our

> ideas

> > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the

> > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!)

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small

Business.

> >

>

> ---------------------------------

> Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.

>

November 28, 2006

<wheelofadeal@...> wrote: I agree, a big study would be the best. But maybe this could help in testing certain products, to know what not to do?> > Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason > for positives > > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants > to > > play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has > > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the > tylenol, > > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is > > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose a > > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the > women > > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean

Etg levels would peak higher in > > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will > > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back > > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo > > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight would > > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS > did > > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one FEMALE > > which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so I > > guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe explains > > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not being > > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and > unresearched > > posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this >

> push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our > ideas > > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the > > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------> > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.> >> > > > > > > ---------------------------------> Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.> __________________________________________________

November 28, 2006

any research of any kind is better than what is out there now,brandon...regards,r <wheelofadeal@...> wrote: I agree, a big study would be the best. But maybe this could help in testing certain products, to know what not to do?> > Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason > for positives > > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants > to > > play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has > > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the > tylenol, > > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is > > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose a > > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one

drink...the > women > > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in > > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will > > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back > > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo > > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight would > > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS > did > > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one FEMALE > > which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so I > > guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe explains > > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not being > > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and > unresearched > >

posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this > > push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our > ideas > > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the > > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------> > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.> >> > > > > > > ---------------------------------> Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.>

Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.

November 28, 2006

Robin, I took very little apap/hydrocodone, around 3/day or less for

about 1 yr and still had 2 tests over 1000. My levels were 1000 and

1200 2 weeks apart. No alcohol source that I could identify and very

little prn use of apap. I'm stumped. Have stopped my ocs and any apap

ingestion as well as anything claiming vanilla flavoring of any kind.

So far, no more positives....yet.

> Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason for positives

> other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants to

> play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has

> taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the tylenol,

> medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is

> gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose a

> graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the women

> peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in

> women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will

> tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back

> again to the study where two positives were found in placebo

> groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight would

> also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS did

> research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one FEMALE

> which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so I

> guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe explains

> WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not being

> petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and unresearched

> posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this

> push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our ideas

> to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the

> tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!)

>

> ---------------------------------

> Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.

>

> ---------------------------------

> Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

>

November 28, 2006

thanks karen very interesting and unusual any other meds of any kind?more opiates or other meds of any kind in your history?maybe combination of factors oc's intake and gender...regards,r...hartsonkaren <Thartson@...> wrote: Robin, I took very little apap/hydrocodone, around 3/day or less forabout 1 yr and still had 2 tests over 1000. My levels were 1000 and1200 2 weeks apart. No alcohol source that I could identify and verylittle prn use of apap. I'm stumped. Have stopped my ocs

and any apapingestion as well as anything claiming vanilla flavoring of any kind. So far, no more positives....yet.> Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason for positives> other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants to> play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has> taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the tylenol,> medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is> gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose a> graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the women> peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in> women even

after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will> tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back> again to the study where two positives were found in placebo> groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight would> also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS did> research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one FEMALE> which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so I> guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe explains> WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not being> petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and unresearched> posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this> push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our ideas> to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the> tylenol and med

issues, gender, etc!) >>>>>> ---------------------------------> Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.>>>>> ---------------------------------> Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.> __________________________________________________

November 28, 2006

Took quite a few benzos. I have been in diversion for 4 years 3 mos and

the only thing I changed was I got a little over zealous on my

consumption of cherry-vanilla diet dr. pepper. That's the only thing I

can come up with to explain testing completely clean for so long and

then go positive. I also was/am very cautious about the amount of fluid

I drink because I had an " out-of range " test. My 2 samples that tested

positive were both very concentrated. By the way, my " out-of-range "

creatinine was 19, cut off is 20.

I'd like to add that the support and information I've received from so

many of you on this site has been invaluable. Thank-you to all of you

for your courage and tenacity to fight the good fight. With regards to

Bob, get a life and stay out of ours, your input is not welcome here.

> > Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason for positives

> > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants to

> > play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has

> > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the tylenol,

> > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is

> > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose a

> > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the

women

> > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in

> > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will

> > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back

> > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo

> > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight would

> > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS

did

> > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one FEMALE

> > which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so I

> > guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe explains

> > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not being

> > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and unresearched

> > posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this

> > push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our ideas

> > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the

> > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!)

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

> >

>

> __________________________________________________

>

November 28, 2006

, I had checked the Muslim Consumer group site frequently in the past to check for alerts on products containing alcohol. I do believe I remember that site stating that pepsi products do not use alcohol but some coke products do and I believe Dr. Pepper is a coke product. Interestingly, early in Dr. Skipper's group someone came up positive after drinking 5 or 6 non-alcoholic beers at a hot fourth of July picnic....the response from Micheal Feldman (from NWTox) was that drinking 5-6 non-alcohlic beers IS alcoholic drinking. Thing is, of the sodas contain the same amount of alcohol as the non-alcoholic beers...then drinking 5 -6 sodas at a hot fourth of July picnic would cause the same positive....is THAT alcoholic drinking too????? I'll try to look up that site and post it. I remember I sent an e-mail to the head of that Muslim site and asked if they had a comprehensive list of items containing alcohol....the response was that they

don't even have a comprehensive list because they find more products on a daily basis! hartsonkaren <Thartson@...> wrote: Took quite a few benzos. I have been in diversion for 4 years 3 mos andthe only thing I changed was I got a little over zealous on myconsumption of cherry-vanilla diet dr. pepper. That's the only thing Ican come up with to explain testing completely clean for so long andthen go positive. I also was/am very cautious about the amount of fluidI drink because I had an

"out-of range" test. My 2 samples that testedpositive were both very concentrated. By the way, my "out-of-range"creatinine was 19, cut off is 20.I'd like to add that the support and information I've received from somany of you on this site has been invaluable. Thank-you to all of youfor your courage and tenacity to fight the good fight. With regards toBob, get a life and stay out of ours, your input is not welcome here.> > Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason for positives> > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants

to> > play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has> > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the tylenol,> > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is> > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose a> > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...thewomen> > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in> > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will> > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back> > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo> > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight would> > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMSdid> > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one FEMALE> > which

was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so I> > guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe explains> > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not being> > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and unresearched> > posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this> > push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our ideas> > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the> > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!) > >> >> >> >> >> > ---------------------------------> > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.> >> >> >> >> > ---------------------------------> > Access over 1 million songs - Music

Unlimited.> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________>

November 28, 2006

Hi ,

I know little/nothing about approaching a university with an idea for a

research project, aside from an old roommate's grad school experience

many years ago. Seems to me a large scale study would only interest

someone if there were funding to back it. On the other hand, perhaps a

smaller study, looking at some smaller aspect of this big picture might

interest someone. And publishing a smaller study can also have

tremendous impact. Look at the EtG studies -- There were 3 studies cited

regarding endogenous alcohol and EtG, each involving 8, 10, and 12

subjects. The two NMS mouthwash studies involved 9 and 11 subjects. And

the Dahl study with the 2 unexplained positives had 9 subjects. Seems to

me, if we could interest a professor in the subject matter, he could

possibly get a grad student to work on it. I know there are schools with

specialties in alcohol studies -- I researched it a long time ago.

So...for the brainiacs in the group...How does one solicit such

research? Is it possible? Dr. Dan and Robin -- Ideas and input?

> > Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason

> for positives

> > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants

> to

> > play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has

> > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the

> tylenol,

> > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is

> > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose a

> > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the

> women

> > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in

> > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will

> > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back

> > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo

> > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight would

> > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS

> did

> > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one FEMALE

> > which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so I

> > guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe explains

> > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not being

> > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and

> unresearched

> > posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this

> > push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our

> ideas

> > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the

> > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!)

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.

> >

>

November 28, 2006

Hi Tina,

I'm no biochemist or toxicologist, but I do recall Doug of USDTL

talking about the process of validating the methodology for measuring

these biomarkers, specifically he spoke of EtG and the development of

the PEth assay. It was way above my head, as he described the appearance

of the 'two sharp peaks' for EtG. It almost sounded like a tightly

guarded secret that each lab develops independently, that a university

lab would have to develop on their own.

> > > > Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the

> reason

> > > for positives

> > > > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one

> wants

> > > to

> > > > play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing

> has

> > > > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the

> > > tylenol,

> > > > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is

> > > > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you

> superimpose

> > a

> > > > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the

> > > women

> > > > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher

> in

> > > > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research

> > will

> > > > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go

> > back

> > > > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo

> > > > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight

> > would

> > > > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when

> NMS

> > > did

> > > > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one

> > FEMALE

> > > > which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very

> petite...so

> > I

> > > > guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe

> > explains

> > > > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not

> > being

> > > > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and

> > > unresearched

> > > > posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in

> > this

> > > > push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our

> > > ideas

> > > > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the

> > > > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!)

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small

> > Business.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

November 28, 2006

Don't even remind me about that whole " alcoholic drinking " argument. So

someone who likes the flavor of beer that is labeled and marketed as

" non-alcoholic " consumes 5-6 on a hot summer day -- WHERE is it that

their thinking went askew, I ask? Remember, I compared it with consuming

" sparkling cider " on Thanksgiving? Golly, I was just trying to figure

out if I was in some sort of dangerous " relapse mode " or something. And

if I overindulge on the turkey, stuffing, and pumpkin pies, could that

be construed as " binge eating " -- which, by application of the Gateway

Theory, could mean my mind is in dangerous territory? Addiction

medicine.....such a pseudoscience.

> > > Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason for

positives

> > > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants

to

> > > play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has

> > > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the

tylenol,

> > > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is

> > > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose

a

> > > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the

> women

> > > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in

> > > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will

> > > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back

> > > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo

> > > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight would

> > > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS

> did

> > > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one

FEMALE

> > > which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so

I

> > > guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe

explains

> > > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not

being

> > > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and

unresearched

> > > posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this

> > > push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our

ideas

> > > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the

> > > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!)

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small

Business.

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

> > >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

November 28, 2006

That would be GREAT if we could find someone to do that! I would certainly sign up for it! What better subjects then those already having false positives! And I agree Lorie, If all the other published studies had small sample sizes....even though a large sample study is desirable....a smaller one with particular studies and conditions would be better then nothing! This is a HOT issue right now....someone could get some recognition through this for identifying major issues causing unexplained positives!Lorie <saclorie@...> wrote: Hi ,I know little/nothing about approaching a university with an idea for aresearch project, aside from an old roommate's grad school experiencemany years ago. Seems to me a large scale study would only interestsomeone if there were funding to back it. On the other hand, perhaps asmaller study, looking at some smaller aspect of this big picture mightinterest someone. And publishing a smaller study can also havetremendous impact. Look at the EtG studies -- There were 3 studies citedregarding endogenous alcohol and EtG, each involving 8, 10, and 12subjects. The two NMS mouthwash studies involved 9 and 11 subjects. Andthe Dahl study with the 2 unexplained positives had 9 subjects. Seems tome, if we could interest a professor in the subject matter, he couldpossibly get a grad student to work on it. I know there are schools withspecialties in

alcohol studies -- I researched it a long time ago.So...for the brainiacs in the group...How does one solicit suchresearch? Is it possible? Dr. Dan and Robin -- Ideas and input?> > Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason> for positives> > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one wants>

to> > play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing has> > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the> tylenol,> > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel is> > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you superimpose a> > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one drink...the> women> > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak higher in> > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more research will> > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I go back> > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo> > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight would> > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that when NMS> did> > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one

FEMALE> > which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very petite...so I> > guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe explains> > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not being> > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and> unresearched> > posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton in this> > push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get our> ideas> > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including the> > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!) > >> >> >> >> >> >> > ---------------------------------> > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small Business.> >>

Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

November 28, 2006

--- Oh Lorie,

The addiction industry is ran by a bunch of " tards " .

In Ethylglucuronide , " Lorie " <saclorie@...> wrote:

>

> Don't even remind me about that whole " alcoholic drinking "

argument. So

> someone who likes the flavor of beer that is labeled and marketed

as

> " non-alcoholic " consumes 5-6 on a hot summer day -- WHERE is it

that

> their thinking went askew, I ask? Remember, I compared it with

consuming

> " sparkling cider " on Thanksgiving? Golly, I was just trying to

figure

> out if I was in some sort of dangerous " relapse mode " or

something. And

> if I overindulge on the turkey, stuffing, and pumpkin pies, could

that

> be construed as " binge eating " -- which, by application of the

Gateway

> Theory, could mean my mind is in dangerous territory? Addiction

> medicine.....such a pseudoscience.

>

> > > > Sorry to change the subject back to Etg and the reason for

> positives

> > > > other then drinking (maybe because I am JEALOUS that no one

wants

> to

> > > > play match maker for me!! Anyway, this whole purell thing

has

> > > > taken the focus off of a lot of other things....such as the

> tylenol,

> > > > medication issues, PLUS, a very important issue Which I feel

is

> > > > gender related! I asked Skipper early on about if you

superimpose

> a

> > > > graph showing BAC levels of men and women after one

drink...the

> > women

> > > > peaks higher. Wouldn't that mean Etg levels would peak

higher in

> > > > women even after incidental use. His reply was 'more

research will

> > > > tell...and at that point I had already lost my license!! I

go back

> > > > again to the study where two positives were found in placebo

> > > > groups....ALL WOMEN!!! Besides the gender issue, body weight

would

> > > > also play a role...Barbieri testified at my hearing that

when NMS

> > did

> > > > research on mouthwash, everyone was below 250 except for one

> FEMALE

> > > > which was close to 400....and added 'but she was very

petite...so

> I

> > > > guess it is OK to falsly accuse petite women! (which maybe

> explains

> > > > WHY or ole buddy Dr. Bob never had a positive.. certainly not

> being

> > > > petite in the least!) There are SO MANY unexplained and

> unresearched

> > > > posibilities, I am afraid some of those will get forgotton

in this

> > > > push to research inhalants and purell! I wonder WHO we get

our

> ideas

> > > > to concerning aspects that should be researched (including

the

> > > > tylenol and med issues, gender, etc!)

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Small

> Business.

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

> > > >

> > >

> > > __________________________________________________

> > >

November 29, 2006

Non-Alcoholic Beer does contain alcohol, so yes, drinking non-alcoholic

beer is a problem for the alcoholic. Should an opioid addict, who has

never been a drinker of alcohol, be drinking non-alcoholic beer? If the

person is in a monitoring program with EtG testing certainly not.

In the Journal Alcoholism: Clinical & Experimental Research, a team of

California scientists report that smell may be enough to trigger

cravings and a subsequent relapse among certain alcoholics. Both alcohol

and the anticipation of alcohol may raise levels of a brain chemical

called dopamine, which plays a role in feelings of elation and pleasure.

Dr. Pepper containing alcohol? Synthetic alcohol is used as a solvent

to prepare some of the ingredients but IS NOT found in either the Dr

Pepper or Sugar Free Dr Pepper formula. Not going to be a cause for

positive EtG.

Out of range creatinine is out of range, period. It does not matter if

it is 19 or 1.

In regards to the police officer whose daughter ad pot. " How many

college dreams has he ruined by arresting kids instead of taking them

home to their parents? " Did he (the police officer) ruin the kids'

lives or did they do it themselves by obtaining and using the pot? Who

holds responsibility? Answer - not the police. They didn't make the

law or put the pot in the hands of the drug user. The kids did that

themselves.

Lorie wrote " My point is that a scientific study would eliminate these

faulty explanations. I think this site has been great for generating

IDEAS that need to be looked into SCIENTIFICALLY. We lack scientific

suport/funding. " I still could not agree more. Research is needed and

is being done. Publications will be forthcoming and grants have been

written for larger studies. I don't recall who wrote the idea of

splitting into 3 experiment groups (tylenol/hydrocodone, gender, and

drugs that block liver oxidative pathways), but I liked the idea.