Guest guest Posted July 8, 2006 Report Share Posted July 8, 2006 , really? are you using an ethanol fuel source? and are you inhaling it? And how are you "documenting" your sobriety? AA logs? how do we know what your doing? Absolutely, I agree that if there are problems with any of these tests it needs to be documented but there is no research suggesting that ETG is coming from anything other than alcohol metabolism. In medical professional Board programs we are certainly held to a higher standard of abstinence so we have to go that extra mile to know what is our food and any incidental contacts. And yes... the cutoff should be looked at to determine what is reasonable to account for incidental contact. My Board uses a cut off of 100 which is a little tight but I'm now 6 years with all levels being zero and I do use soaps and gels. and I do fuel my car. And I have had foods which may have had some alcohol in the cooking process. Dr skipper has never said ETG is a bad test. It is a way to see if alcohol has been present in a person's system,.. but incidental contact should not ruin a person's life either. so what we should be doing is not class action law suits. We should be promoting for research to determine how much is too much for incidental contact. Any ETG over 500 is... let's face it... a good amount of alcohol from somewhere. It might not mean someone ran out to intentionally get drunk but it does show irresponsibility at worst and lack of attention to detail at best. This is not peoples sobriety I'm questioning. some people who have come in to this site do have poor insight and are looking for a way around the test...you have to admit that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2006 Report Share Posted July 8, 2006 interesting...so my level of 1400, and I have 7.5 years, I have been irresponsible or lack attention to what i come in contact with? How about an albuterol inhaler that could possibly save my life? > > , really? are you using an ethanol fuel source? and are you inhaling > it? And how are you " documenting " your sobriety? AA logs? how do we know what > your doing? > > Absolutely, I agree that if there are problems with any of these tests it > needs to be documented but there is no research suggesting that ETG is coming > from anything other than alcohol metabolism. In medical professional Board > programs we are certainly held to a higher standard of abstinence so we have to > go that extra mile to know what is our food and any incidental contacts. And > yes... the cutoff should be looked at to determine what is reasonable to > account for incidental contact. My Board uses a cut off of 100 which is a little > tight but I'm now 6 years with all levels being zero and I do use soaps and > gels. and I do fuel my car. And I have had foods which may have had some > alcohol in the cooking process. > > Dr skipper has never said ETG is a bad test. It is a way to see if alcohol > has been present in a person's system,.. but incidental contact should not > ruin a person's life either. so what we should be doing is not class action law > suits. We should be promoting for research to determine how much is too much > for incidental contact. Any ETG over 500 is... let's face it... a good amount > of alcohol from somewhere. It might not mean someone ran out to intentionally > get drunk but it does show irresponsibility at worst and lack of attention > to detail at best. This is not peoples sobriety I'm questioning. some people > who have come in to this site do have poor insight and are looking for a way > around the test...you have to admit that. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2006 Report Share Posted July 8, 2006 Gas contains ethanol in some states! Re: positive Etg's , really? are you using an ethanol fuel source? and are you inhaling it? And how are you "documenting" your sobriety? AA logs? how do we know what your doing? Absolutely, I agree that if there are problems with any of these tests it needs to be documented but there is no research suggesting that ETG is coming from anything other than alcohol metabolism. In medical professional Board programs we are certainly held to a higher standard of abstinence so we have to go that extra mile to know what is our food and any incidental contacts. And yes... the cutoff should be looked at to determine what is reasonable to account for incidental contact. My Board uses a cut off of 100 which is a little tight but I'm now 6 years with all levels being zero and I do use soaps and gels. and I do fuel my car. And I have had foods which may have had some alcohol in the cooking process. Dr skipper has never said ETG is a bad test. It is a way to see if alcohol has been present in a person's system,.. but incidental contact should not ruin a person's life either. so what we should be doing is not class action law suits. We should be promoting for research to determine how much is too much for incidental contact. Any ETG over 500 is... let's face it... a good amount of alcohol from somewhere. It might not mean someone ran out to intentionally get drunk but it does show irresponsibility at worst and lack of attention to detail at best. This is not peoples sobriety I'm questioning. some people who have come in to this site do have poor insight and are looking for a way around the test...you have to admit that. Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2006 Report Share Posted July 8, 2006 I would have a battle of intellect and integrity with you....but I never fight with an unarmed man. I have much more then AA logs! > > , really? are you using an ethanol fuel source? and are you inhaling > it? And how are you " documenting " your sobriety? AA logs? how do we know what > your doing? > > Absolutely, I agree that if there are problems with any of these tests it > needs to be documented but there is no research suggesting that ETG is coming > from anything other than alcohol metabolism. In medical professional Board > programs we are certainly held to a higher standard of abstinence so we have to > go that extra mile to know what is our food and any incidental contacts. And > yes... the cutoff should be looked at to determine what is reasonable to > account for incidental contact. My Board uses a cut off of 100 which is a little > tight but I'm now 6 years with all levels being zero and I do use soaps and > gels. and I do fuel my car. And I have had foods which may have had some > alcohol in the cooking process. > > Dr skipper has never said ETG is a bad test. It is a way to see if alcohol > has been present in a person's system,.. but incidental contact should not > ruin a person's life either. so what we should be doing is not class action law > suits. We should be promoting for research to determine how much is too much > for incidental contact. Any ETG over 500 is... let's face it... a good amount > of alcohol from somewhere. It might not mean someone ran out to intentionally > get drunk but it does show irresponsibility at worst and lack of attention > to detail at best. This is not peoples sobriety I'm questioning. some people > who have come in to this site do have poor insight and are looking for a way > around the test...you have to admit that. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 robin, ETG doesn't measure relapse, it is a metabolite of alcohol, therefore it confirms the fact that alcohol was in the system. It doesn't mean it was a relapse. It could have been accidently ingested by someone not paying attention,... but innocent. And no test is 100%, ...look up the sensitivities and specificities of all tests, such as a strep test, a pregnancy test any laboratory testing done on you....it all runs about the same. But the ETG, all of a sudden, is bad? Believe me,... the potheads have already been over all this material 10 years ago when metabolite testing for THC came out. Everyone wants research findings ......and they don't exist. Everyone on this site has read the same few articles that are out there. What I can do, is not drink,... and graduate from the Medical Board program I'm testing in... then run for a Board position... then maybe create a more common sense approach to how this test is used and how relapse is viewed. But the ETG test isn't going anywhere. but when others on this site call me a "limp dick", it hurts....because I do, in fact, have a limp dick. Seacrest....OUT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 you are an asshole..do you have children??? low level test scores have been a vehicle to be used by misinformed people that are in a position of authority for there aims to be met..I am not drinking ..But I will not take this test again....get some viagra or something ...you are the angry man...so please stop upsetting us unless you have some scientific info to help or get the fuck out of here...I agree with Madison on all counts ...but that wont help me..and you are a mole as far as im concerned....YES I AM ANGRY NOW AND I SHOULD BE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 Mr...can you post your credentials ??? are we sure this isn't Austin ??? If you cant substantiate who you really are I must say that you are a mole...and lets not let this site gets all confused again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 you are so right ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 rrpmd - If you are truly reading all the posts, you will see that those individuals who do come on here looking for a way around it are quickly told that this site is not for that purpose. It is to discuss the issues related to ETG testing and the poor use of the test as a definitive indication of beverage alcohol consumption, therefore relapse. By the way, E85 fuel is 85% ethanol and is being used on an ever widening basis in the US. Even Dr. Skipper has admitted that non-beverage alcohol sources can contribute to positive ETG levels. He himself has had individuals follow his protocols for hyperproducers who have tested positive under controlled conditions. You may want to contact Dr. Skipper directly for that information as it appears you have concerns over the integrity and veracity of people posting on this site. Regards, rrpmd@... wrote: , really? are you using an ethanol fuel source? and are you inhaling it? And how are you "documenting" your sobriety? AA logs? how do we know what your doing? Absolutely, I agree that if there are problems with any of these tests it needs to be documented but there is no research suggesting that ETG is coming from anything other than alcohol metabolism. In medical professional Board programs we are certainly held to a higher standard of abstinence so we have to go that extra mile to know what is our food and any incidental contacts. And yes... the cutoff should be looked at to determine what is reasonable to account for incidental contact. My Board uses a cut off of 100 which is a little tight but I'm now 6 years with all levels being zero and I do use soaps and gels. and I do fuel my car. And I have had foods which may have had some alcohol in the cooking process. Dr skipper has never said ETG is a bad test. It is a way to see if alcohol has been present in a person's system,.. but incidental contact should not ruin a person's life either. so what we should be doing is not class action law suits. We should be promoting for research to determine how much is too much for incidental contact. Any ETG over 500 is... let's face it... a good amount of alcohol from somewhere. It might not mean someone ran out to intentionally get drunk but it does show irresponsibility at worst and lack of attention to detail at best. This is not peoples sobriety I'm questioning. some people who have come in to this site do have poor insight and are looking for a way around the test...you have to admit that. Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 great point,monica...rrpmd,since you think this test is perfect,why don't you post some research of some sort to support your opinions and anecdotes and personal attacks..we are currently in search of any referenced studies to show this is an accurate,sensitive,and specific test that has 100% effectiveness in laboratory diagnosis of the clinical manifestation of the disease of alcoholism known as relapse... failing referenced studies to support your assertions,your overall point that it is ok to diagnose clinical relapse with an inaccurate lab test would seem to not be valid. regards,robin M H <mgh184@...> wrote: rrpmd - If you are truly reading all the posts, you will see that those individuals who do come on here looking for a way around it are quickly told that this site is not for that purpose. It is to discuss the issues related to ETG testing and the poor use of the test as a definitive indication of beverage alcohol consumption, therefore relapse. By the way, E85 fuel is 85% ethanol and is being used on an ever widening basis in the US. Even Dr. Skipper has admitted that non-beverage alcohol sources can contribute to positive ETG levels. He himself has had individuals follow his protocols for hyperproducers who have tested positive under controlled conditions. You may want to contact Dr. Skipper directly for that information as it appears you have concerns over the integrity and veracity of people posting on this site. Regards, rrpmd@... wrote: , really? are you using an ethanol fuel source? and are you inhaling it? And how are you "documenting" your sobriety? AA logs? how do we know what your doing? Absolutely, I agree that if there are problems with any of these tests it needs to be documented but there is no research suggesting that ETG is coming from anything other than alcohol metabolism. In medical professional Board programs we are certainly held to a higher standard of abstinence so we have to go that extra mile to know what is our food and any incidental contacts. And yes... the cutoff should be looked at to determine what is reasonable to account for incidental contact. My Board uses a cut off of 100 which is a little tight but I'm now 6 years with all levels being zero and I do use soaps and gels. and I do fuel my car. And I have had foods which may have had some alcohol in the cooking process. Dr skipper has never said ETG is a bad test. It is a way to see if alcohol has been present in a person's system,.. but incidental contact should not ruin a person's life either. so what we should be doing is not class action law suits. We should be promoting for research to determine how much is too much for incidental contact. Any ETG over 500 is... let's face it... a good amount of alcohol from somewhere. It might not mean someone ran out to intentionally get drunk but it does show irresponsibility at worst and lack of attention to detail at best. This is not peoples sobriety I'm questioning. some people who have come in to this site do have poor insight and are looking for a way around the test...you have to admit that. Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 Good morning all. I have to chime in here after reading yet again this whole argument. First, let me qualify. I am a pharmacist in recovery with over 3 years of sobriety, and last year tested positive 5 times for EtG. 4 of those were under 500, and one was 750. As a result of the positives I was taken out of work twice and instructed to complete an IOP. I am an active member in AA, worked all the steps (including around this issue). And I will say that I have not drank. Whether or not you believe me is your deal, whatever. I found the site previous to this one after my positives to get some information to try and find out why I was testing positive. At the time there was not a lot of information given about the test, and my Board and Diversion program treated the numbers, not the clinical situation. I had numerous letters of support stating my behavior did not indicate relapse, but they were seemingly ignored. Well, now water under the bridge right? Not really, because I never found out the definitive answer as to what caused me to test positive. I went to doctors, did the Skipper test, all that. No results. Imagine the feeling going to test, and then wondering for the next two weeks if I tested positive for EtG. Scary. Definitely fodder for my program. And yes, I am ultra careful about what goes in and on my body. What I have learned here is not that the test itself is a problem, it is the interpretation. There are a couple of Boards in the US that treat numbers only, and that is where the majority of the complaints come from about the test. So it really boils my blood when someone comes on this message board and spouts off that “you won’t test positive if you don’t drink”. BULL****!. I do believe this discussion has sunk to some new depths with some of the posts, but that is the posters choice-not my deal. And being in the medical profession it really bothers me that something is being used that is not evidence based. I still cannot believe that this test was began in this country without the proper research. I always liken it to a medication. There is no way they could use a medication with the research they have on EtG. It is ridiculous! Thank you for letting me share my 2 cents. Bonnie Re: positive Etg's robin, ETG doesn't measure relapse, it is a metabolite of alcohol, therefore it confirms the fact that alcohol was in the system. It doesn't mean it was a relapse. It could have been accidently ingested by someone not paying attention,... but innocent. And no test is 100%, ...look up the sensitivities and specificities of all tests, such as a strep test, a pregnancy test any laboratory testing done on you....it all runs about the same. But the ETG, all of a sudden, is bad? Believe me,... the potheads have already been over all this material 10 years ago when metabolite testing for THC came out. Everyone wants research findings ......and they don't exist. Everyone on this site has read the same few articles that are out there. What I can do, is not drink,... and graduate from the Medical Board program I'm testing in... then run for a Board position... then maybe create a more common sense approach to how this test is used and how relapse is viewed. But the ETG test isn't going anywhere. but when others on this site call me a " limp dick " , it hurts....because I do, in fact, have a limp dick. Seacrest....OUT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 Do you think the labs using this test bear some responsibility in conducting some research on this test, in defining some of the "unknowns" that we've already discussed? Review Kline Beecham v. Doe (Texas 1995). Kline's promotional literature advertised that a positive finding indicated, with virtual certainty, evidence of drug use. (Sound a little like EtG and alcohol consumption?) If a drug laboratory even partially creates a dangerous situation, then it is no longer a mere bystander and it must become the good Samaritan to prevent injury if it reasonably appears, or should appear, that others may be injured as a result. Kline did create, at least in part, a dangerous situation and due to its relationship to those employees and prospective employees whose urine it tests at their risk of loss of employment, Kline should be held responsible for failing to warn that poppy seeds can cause false positive drug test results. What incentive do the labs have to do any further research? Financially, it could kill their "gold standard" EtG test. The liability that the results may create could be big. I'm not looking for any research from the labs ever! What does corporate America respond to? Lawsuits, my friend. And that's why you hear talk of a class-action lawsuit. As for your commentary on "potheads"...I suppose we're "drunks" to you. I'm not an alcoholic and I'm not in denial. My addiction was to opiates. And did ya ever stop to think that the THC information may actually benefit a few innocent people? Because of a former substance abuse problem, are we all just throwaways to you? Re: positive Etg's robin, ETG doesn't measure relapse, it is a metabolite of alcohol, therefore it confirms the fact that alcohol was in the system. It doesn't mean it was a relapse. It could have been accidently ingested by someone not paying attention,... but innocent. And no test is 100%, ...look up the sensitivities and specificities of all tests, such as a strep test, a pregnancy test any laboratory testing done on you....it all runs about the same. But the ETG, all of a sudden, is bad? Believe me,... the potheads have already been over all this material 10 years ago when metabolite testing for THC came out. Everyone wants research findings ......and they don't exist. Everyone on this site has read the same few articles that are out there. What I can do, is not drink,... and graduate from the Medical Board program I'm testing in... then run for a Board position... then maybe create a more common sense approach to how this test is used and how relapse is viewed. But the ETG test isn't going anywhere. but when others on this site call me a "limp dick", it hurts....because I do, in fact, have a limp dick. Seacrest....OUT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 Please don't let this person upset you....i refuse to give someone free rent in my head. I used to believe that if someone came up positive on the EtG, they must have ingested something with the alcohol....and thought they should be more careful. Now, that it has happened to me...and I am being accused her of being irresponsible for my inhaler (yes, albuterol is fast acting....proventil has ethanol, and advair...which i use is not rapid acting) is not an irresponsible move, or an ignorant move on my part. The ignorance is on the board and non medical people that feel that they can tell me what meds I should leave our of my daily living....not knowing that I may REQUIRE this med to breath. THAT is ignorance. ANd, I have always found that what goes around comes around....this person puffs his chest as he has had no positives....well, he will be the next one screaming help. The most important thing? I work a program, I have been clean for 7+ years, I am a responsible but INFORMED person. Let this guy go....he feeds on the chaos and the anger... > > you are an asshole..do you have children??? low level test scores have been > a vehicle to be used by misinformed people that are in a position of authority > for there aims to be met..I am not drinking ..But I will not take this test > again....get some viagra or something ...you are the angry man...so please > stop upsetting us unless you have some scientific info to help or get the fuck > out of here...I agree with Madison on all counts ...but that wont help > me..and you are a mole as far as im concerned....YES I AM ANGRY NOW AND I SHOULD BE > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 Hear hear, Bonnie!Bonnie <bonnie@...> wrote: Good morning all. I have to chime in here after reading yet again this whole argument. First, let me qualify. I am a pharmacist in recovery with over 3 years of sobriety, and last year tested positive 5 times for EtG. 4 of those were under 500, and one was 750. As a result of the positives I was taken out of work twice and instructed to complete an IOP. I am an active member in AA, worked all the steps (including around this issue). And I will say that I have not drank. Whether or not you believe me is your deal, whatever. I found the site previous to this one after my positives to get some information to try and find out why I was testing positive. At the time there was not a lot of information given about the test, and my Board and Diversion program treated the numbers, not the clinical situation. I had numerous letters of support stating my behavior did not indicate relapse, but they were seemingly ignored. Well, now water under the bridge right? Not really, because I never found out the definitive answer as to what caused me to test positive. I went to doctors, did the Skipper test, all that. No results. Imagine the feeling going to test, and then wondering for the next two weeks if I tested positive for EtG. Scary. Definitely fodder for my program. And yes, I am ultra careful about what goes in and on my body. What I have learned here is not that the test itself is a problem, it is the interpretation. There are a couple of Boards in the US that treat numbers only, and that is where the majority of the complaints come from about the test. So it really boils my blood when someone comes on this message board and spouts off that “you won’t test positive if you don’t drink”. BULL****!. I do believe this discussion has sunk to some new depths with some of the posts, but that is the posters choice-not my deal. And being in the medical profession it really bothers me that something is being used that is not evidence based. I still cannot believe that this test was began in this country without the proper research. I always liken it to a medication. There is no way they could use a medication with the research they have on EtG. It is ridiculous! Thank you for letting me share my 2 cents. Bonnie -----Original Message-----From: rrpmd@... [mailto:rrpmd@...] Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 5:30 AMEthylglucuronide-EtG Subject: Re: positive Etg's robin, ETG doesn't measure relapse, it is a metabolite of alcohol, therefore it confirms the fact that alcohol was in the system. It doesn't mean it was a relapse. It could have been accidently ingested by someone not paying attention,... but innocent. And no test is 100%, ...look up the sensitivities and specificities of all tests, such as a strep test, a pregnancy test any laboratory testing done on you....it all runs about the same. But the ETG, all of a sudden, is bad? Believe me,... the potheads have already been over all this material 10 years ago when metabolite testing for THC came out. Everyone wants research findings ......and they don't exist. Everyone on this site has read the same few articles that are out there. What I can do, is not drink,... and graduate from the Medical Board program I'm testing in... then run for a Board position... then maybe create a more common sense approach to how this test is used and how relapse is viewed. But the ETG test isn't going anywhere. but when others on this site call me a "limp dick", it hurts....because I do, in fact, have a limp dick. Seacrest....OUT! How low will we go? Check out Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 Right on, .nilesclay <nilesclay@...> wrote: Please don't let this person upset you....i refuse to give someone free rent in my head. I used to believe that if someone came up positive on the EtG, they must have ingested something with the alcohol....and thought they should be more careful. Now, that it has happened to me...and I am being accused her of being irresponsible for my inhaler (yes, albuterol is fast acting....proventil has ethanol, and advair...which i use is not rapid acting) is not an irresponsible move, or an ignorant move on my part. The ignorance is on the board and non medical people that feel that they can tell me what meds I should leave our of my daily living....not knowing that I may REQUIRE this med to breath. THAT is ignorance. ANd, I have always found that what goes around comes around....this person puffs his chest as he has had no positives....well, he will be the next one screaming help. The most important thing? I work a program, I have been clean for 7+ years, I am a responsible but INFORMED person. Let this guy go....he feeds on the chaos and the anger...>> you are an asshole..do you have children??? low level test scores have been > a vehicle to be used by misinformed people that are in a position of authority > for there aims to be met..I am not drinking ..But I will not take this test > again....get some viagra or something ...you are the angry man...so please > stop upsetting us unless you have some scientific info to help or get the fuck > out of here...I agree with Madison on all counts ...but that wont help > me..and you are a mole as far as im concerned....YES I AM ANGRY NOW AND I SHOULD BE> Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Small Business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 "...it [EtG] confirms the fact that alcohol was in the system." What are the ethyl ester flavoring agents (ethyl formate, ethyl acetate, and ethyl butyrate) metabolized to? How can one avoid the irresponsible act of producing endogenous alcohol? Re: positive Etg's robin, ETG doesn't measure relapse, it is a metabolite of alcohol, therefore it confirms the fact that alcohol was in the system. It doesn't mean it was a relapse. It could have been accidently ingested by someone not paying attention,... but innocent. And no test is 100%, ...look up the sensitivities and specificities of all tests, such as a strep test, a pregnancy test any laboratory testing done on you....it all runs about the same. But the ETG, all of a sudden, is bad? Believe me,... the potheads have already been over all this material 10 years ago when metabolite testing for THC came out. Everyone wants research findings ......and they don't exist. Everyone on this site has read the same few articles that are out there. What I can do, is not drink,... and graduate from the Medical Board program I'm testing in... then run for a Board position... then maybe create a more common sense approach to how this test is used and how relapse is viewed. But the ETG test isn't going anywhere. but when others on this site call me a "limp dick", it hurts....because I do, in fact, have a limp dick. Seacrest....OUT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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