Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 you need a better informed atty ...when's your hearing maybe I can help in sending you some of the info I have found Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Sorry, I don't recall what state you are in. And was your drug of choice ETOH or something else or a combo? Is your "crime" related directly/only to ETOH?davidd113 <davidd113@...> wrote: Hi,Thanx for the support on the previous posts. I still have not heard back from the lab about the "dilution". I did a bit of looking around the web and figured out that it is very hard to drink enough water to really dillute the sample. I do not think the facts really matter in this case; I am now branded a "cheater" and will be watched!I spoke to the lawyer we are provided with. Nice guy but he has no intention of attempting to challenge the EtG testing or any testing process. He said this is the way it is. I really cannot accept that. I should have legal rights to challenge or provide evidence on my behalf.If I go to court next week and the judge decides the test was diluted I can set up a hearing and bring in my own lawyer, witness etc... to argue the test, with no info on it, but i will be in jail until that time. If I have a hearing and request the info on the specific tests I will stay in jail until the info is provided. I am considering resiging fom the DUI court program and just serving the jail time to be done with this.Sorry for the rant! __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Sorry, I don't recall what state you are in. And was your drug of choice ETOH or something else or a combo? Is your "crime" related directly/only to ETOH?davidd113 <davidd113@...> wrote: Hi,Thanx for the support on the previous posts. I still have not heard back from the lab about the "dilution". I did a bit of looking around the web and figured out that it is very hard to drink enough water to really dillute the sample. I do not think the facts really matter in this case; I am now branded a "cheater" and will be watched!I spoke to the lawyer we are provided with. Nice guy but he has no intention of attempting to challenge the EtG testing or any testing process. He said this is the way it is. I really cannot accept that. I should have legal rights to challenge or provide evidence on my behalf.If I go to court next week and the judge decides the test was diluted I can set up a hearing and bring in my own lawyer, witness etc... to argue the test, with no info on it, but i will be in jail until that time. If I have a hearing and request the info on the specific tests I will stay in jail until the info is provided. I am considering resiging fom the DUI court program and just serving the jail time to be done with this.Sorry for the rant! __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Thanx for the offer. If needed, I would need info by next Tue the 13th. The crime was DUI and the state is GA. I should find out today the results of the dilution test. > > you need a better informed atty ...when's your hearing maybe I can help in > sending you some of the info I have found > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Let us know your results so we can support you.davidd113 <davidd113@...> wrote: Thanx for the offer. If needed, I would need info by next Tue the 13th. The crime was DUI and the state is GA. I should find out today the results of the dilution test.>> you need a better informed atty ...when's your hearing maybe I can help in > sending you some of the info I have found> __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 , This is not a rant! [You missed some of my rants from the discussion group that existed before this one, for which I am not too proud...] I completely understand where you are coming from. This lawyer you've been provided has no interest in challenging science. It's completely out of his realm. And neither do you want to be the case that sets a legal precedence, because it will probably involve big $$$, lots of time tied up in the legal system, possible appeals, etc. Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying you wouldn't like to fight for what's right. It just isn't realistic and doesn't make much sense to do so. I really think that our best chances of stopping the irresponsible and careless use of EtG testing is by putting pressure on these programs to do a little investigation into the lack of science that supports it. There are a couple of ways to do that: SAMHSA, the government entity that regulates drug testing, issues an advisory on the limitations of EtG testing that cautions against overinterpretation of its results. This is supposedly going to happen within the next 2 months. Seems to me that courts and boards would have to respect such recommendations as non-biased and authoritative. A media expose on EtG testing helps to both raise awareness and add legitimacy to our concerns, putting public pressure on the labs, courts, and boards to act more responsibly. The WSJ reporter seems to be helping us in this area. Several of us contacted the ACLU about EtG several months ago in hopes of obtaining their legal aid and/or advocacy. That was prior to the use of EtG in the criminal justice system, which they may be very interested in. While they were interested in what they described as "the egregious situation you and your group members find yourself in", their office was unable to handle the increase in workload that taking on our case would involve. I don't know if their situation has changed since last December. I can say that they are interested in numbers, so the more people that contact them, the better. The person who was working on the case was and the address (if anyone is interested in contacting them) is: ACLU Drug Law Reform Project, 1101 Pacific Ave. Suite 333, Santa Cruz, CA 95060. >> Hi,> Thanx for the support on the previous posts. I still have not heard > back from the lab about the "dilution". I did a bit of looking around > the web and figured out that it is very hard to drink enough water to > really dillute the sample. I do not think the facts really matter in > this case; I am now branded a "cheater" and will be watched!> I spoke to the lawyer we are provided with. Nice guy but he has no > intention of attempting to challenge the EtG testing or any testing > process. He said this is the way it is. I really cannot accept that. I > should have legal rights to challenge or provide evidence on my behalf.> If I go to court next week and the judge decides the test was > diluted I can set up a hearing and bring in my own lawyer, witness > etc... to argue the test, with no info on it, but i will be in jail > until that time. If I have a hearing and request the info on the > specific tests I will stay in jail until the info is provided. > I am considering resiging fom the DUI court program and just > serving the jail time to be done with this.> Sorry for the rant!> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 Hi All, I have been involved with DUI court hell for a week or so. SUnday before last I was expecting the results of the " dilution " test fully expecting that it would be found to be diluted and assumed positive for EtG. They automatically assume it to be a positive test when diluted. (I had comsumed no alcohol.) I asked on Sunday and was told that I would get the answer when I went to court to see the Judge on our regular bi-weekly visit. I am really not sure why I could not just get the results at that time.I spent the next few days worrying about this as a positive in any sense gets me in jail! I contacted the court appointed lawyer and sent him a statement regarding my liquid consumption prior to the test in case he needed it during the meeting prior to my court appearance. I also had him ask the DUI " team " for info about dilution. What can we, as participants, do to avoid accusations of dilution etc... Apparently I was not diluted as the test was never brought up during the meeting. I feel good about being vindicated but I am still unsure about the original accusation. My question about the dilution was not responded to. The position of the court is that if they give instructions on how to avoid dilution those same instructions can be used as a guide to dilute a sample. I can understand that logic. The main issue I still have is that we are viewed as guilty and the test is used to confirm guilt. It should be that we are viewed as innocent and the test verifies that. In this case the system did work for me. I still do not know what was tested for or what results I recieved so I cannot modify behavour to avoid another accusation of dilution. > > > > Hi, > > Thanx for the support on the previous posts. I still have not heard > > back from the lab about the " dilution " . I did a bit of looking around > > the web and figured out that it is very hard to drink enough water to > > really dillute the sample. I do not think the facts really matter in > > this case; I am now branded a " cheater " and will be watched! > > I spoke to the lawyer we are provided with. Nice guy but he has no > > intention of attempting to challenge the EtG testing or any testing > > process. He said this is the way it is. I really cannot accept that. I > > should have legal rights to challenge or provide evidence on my > behalf. > > If I go to court next week and the judge decides the test was > > diluted I can set up a hearing and bring in my own lawyer, witness > > etc... to argue the test, with no info on it, but i will be in jail > > until that time. If I have a hearing and request the info on the > > specific tests I will stay in jail until the info is provided. > > I am considering resiging fom the DUI court program and just > > serving the jail time to be done with this. > > Sorry for the rant! > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 Hi , I'm glad you checked in. I was worried that maybe things hadn't gone well for you. You brought up a couple really interesting points. Many of these random testing programs operate under the premise that innocent "dilutes" and false/innocent positives don't happen. They also promote the concept that if you don't drink or "drug", you don't NEED to worry about the rest, and your inquisition about these issues is seen as "fishing for information" to cover your ass. EDUCATING us about issues like dilution and false positives is viewed as enabling us with an EXCUSE to use if we're not playing by the rules. And unfortunately, there ARE those individuals doing just that who serve to invalidate the legitimacy of those of us who are being HONEST. Drug (and EtG) testing is utilized as a "lie detector" test. If it's positive, you're lying. But look at lie detector testing. Why is it inadmissible in court? Because its validity is faulty. I think the same could be said for EtG testing. There's more work to do, more information to learn, and more data to gather before it achieves scientific validity. In my opinion, it's being used prematurely. At the upcoming ISBRA 2006 World Congress on Alcohol Research, Dr. Friedrich Wurst will co-chair a symposium on alcohol biomarkers and their use in diagnosis and treatment. [Wurst's name appears on nearly every major study on EtG.] The following summation is given for the symposium’s presentation: “The findings suggest that direct ethanol metabolites have potential in detection of previous ethanol intake in a variety of situations and settings. Their combined use and the conjoint use with traditional markers and self reports might be promising.” I don’t believe anyone is using this test even remotely like we are in the United States! Lorie Re: You gotta love it Hi All,I have been involved with DUI court hell for a week or so. SUnday before last I was expecting the results of the "dilution" test fully expecting that it would be found to be diluted and assumed positive for EtG. They automatically assume it to be a positive test when diluted. (I had comsumed no alcohol.)I asked on Sunday and was told that I would get the answer when I went to court to see the Judge on our regular bi-weekly visit. I am really not sure why I could not just get the results at that time.I spent the next few days worrying about this as a positive in any sense gets me in jail!I contacted the court appointed lawyer and sent him a statement regarding my liquid consumption prior to the test in case he needed it during the meeting prior to my court appearance. I also had him ask the DUI "team" for info about dilution. What can we, as participants, do to avoid accusations of dilution etc... Apparently I was not diluted as the test was never brought up during the meeting. I feel good about being vindicated but I am still unsure about the original accusation. My question about the dilution was not responded to. The position of the court is that if they give instructions on how to avoid dilution those same instructions can be used as a guide to dilute a sample. I can understand that logic.The main issue I still have is that we are viewed as guilty and the test is used to confirm guilt. It should be that we are viewed as innocent and the test verifies that.In this case the system did work for me. I still do not know what was tested for or what results I recieved so I cannot modify behavour to avoid another accusation of dilution. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 I will look into the results of that. One thing I do see is that many of the participants in my particular DUI court would use the info as a way to avoid detection and continue drinking if they thought they could " get over " the test. The court must address the lowest common demonator. The main issue that I see is that no one will even admit the possibility of false results and there is no method to defend yourself. If I walk in and say that I was drinking I get a day in jail test or no test. If I take the test and it comes back positive for EtG I get 2 days in jail. If I admit to drinking prior to taking the test then I get one day in jail regardless of the test results. The idea of questioning what I am being tested for, by whom and what the results are seems to be a very normal and legal request. The court sees it as a way to manupilate the samples to avoid detection. I have hired a lawyer, yet again, to try and move my supervision to a jurisdiction that does not us ethe Etg test. We will see if that works?! > > Hi , > I'm glad you checked in. I was worried that maybe things hadn't gone well for you. You brought up a couple really interesting points. > Many of these random testing programs operate under the premise that innocent " dilutes " and false/innocent positives don't happen. > They also promote the concept that if you don't drink or " drug " , you don't NEED to worry about the rest, and your inquisition about these issues is seen as " fishing for information " to cover your ass. EDUCATING us about issues like dilution and false positives is viewed as enabling us with an EXCUSE to use if we're not playing by the rules. And unfortunately, there ARE those individuals doing just that who serve to invalidate the legitimacy of those of us who are being HONEST. > Drug (and EtG) testing is utilized as a " lie detector " test. If it's positive, you're lying. But look at lie detector testing. Why is it inadmissible in court? Because its validity is faulty. I think the same could be said for EtG testing. There's more work to do, more information to learn, and more data to gather before it achieves scientific validity. In my opinion, it's being used prematurely. At the upcoming ISBRA 2006 World Congress on Alcohol Research, Dr. Friedrich Wurst will co-chair a symposium on alcohol biomarkers and their use in diagnosis and treatment. [Wurst's name appears on nearly every major study on EtG.] The following summation is given for the symposium's presentation: " The findings suggest that direct ethanol metabolites have potential in detection of previous ethanol intake in a variety of situations and settings. Their combined use and the conjoint use with traditional markers and self reports might be promising. " I don't believe anyone is using this test even remotely like we are in the United States! > Lorie > > > Re: You gotta love it > > > Hi All, > I have been involved with DUI court hell for a week or so. > SUnday before last I was expecting the results of the " dilution " > test fully expecting that it would be found to be diluted and > assumed positive for EtG. They automatically assume it to be a > positive test when diluted. (I had comsumed no alcohol.) > > I asked on Sunday and was told that I would get the answer when I > went to court to see the Judge on our regular bi-weekly visit. I am > really not sure why I could not just get the results at that time.I > spent the next few days worrying about this as a positive in any > sense gets me in jail! > > I contacted the court appointed lawyer and sent him a statement > regarding my liquid consumption prior to the test in case he needed > it during the meeting prior to my court appearance. I also had him > ask the DUI " team " for info about dilution. What can we, as > participants, do to avoid accusations of dilution etc... > Apparently I was not diluted as the test was never brought up > during the meeting. I feel good about being vindicated but I am > still unsure about the original accusation. My question about the > dilution was not responded to. The position of the court is that if > they give instructions on how to avoid dilution those same > instructions can be used as a guide to dilute a sample. I can > understand that logic. > The main issue I still have is that we are viewed as guilty and > the test is used to confirm guilt. It should be that we are viewed > as innocent and the test verifies that. > In this case the system did work for me. I still do not know what > was tested for or what results I recieved so I cannot modify > behavour to avoid another accusation of dilution. > We Made Changes > Your email is all new. > > Learn More > > > Share Feedback > > Recent Activity > a.. 12New Members > b.. 1New Links > Visit Your Group > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 "The main issue that I see is that no one will even admit the possibility of false results and there is no method to defend yourself." Bingo! I know that's something that Doug Kabat expressed concern over. I didn't mean to discredit his ideas about gaining clinical correlation of relapse through acquaintances or PEth/SCRAM/CDT. It's just very frustrating when you are working with a program that will take none of these things into consideration. >> I will look into the results of that. > > One thing I do see is that many of the participants in my particular > DUI court would use the info as a way to avoid detection and > continue drinking if they thought they could "get over" the test. > The court must address the lowest common demonator. The main issue > that I see is that no one will even admit the possibility of false > results and there is no method to defend yourself. > > If I walk in and say that I was drinking I get a day in jail test or > no test. If I take the test and it comes back positive for EtG I get > 2 days in jail. If I admit to drinking prior to taking the test then > I get one day in jail regardless of the test results. > > The idea of questioning what I am being tested for, by whom and what > the results are seems to be a very normal and legal request. The > court sees it as a way to manupilate the samples to avoid detection. > > I have hired a lawyer, yet again, to try and move my supervision to > a jurisdiction that does not us ethe Etg test. We will see if that > works?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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