Re: 2006 Study about False EtG positives

September 15, 2006

hi isanah,wow interesting obviously biased study focused mostly on what might decrease EtG in the drinking patient producing false negatives...very interesting was the notation of unexplainable variability of EtG over all the other biomarkers across all the studies noted...thanks for posting this recent info...regards,risanahlei <ddm2903@...> wrote: A recent study about false positives in EtG test. Unfortunately the study seems to be focusing on that people are drinking alcohol and

the "false positives" may be masking the suspected intentional consumption. She never addresses anything about endogenous reasons for varied consumption having any reasons to cause positive results. Like Dan has pointed out, none of these researchers are addressing the issue of why those not drinking have such varied positive EtG levels. I know enough about research that these scientist seemed to stay in the box that only addresses that EtG can be detected so many days later. Then they stop there and do not look at the outliers. Hardly ever a conclusion, if ever, that further research is needed since EtG levels vary so widely among people. Regardless, it is a study with much detail that educates about EtG and worth the read.Isanahhttp://diss.kib.ki.se/2006/91-7140-644-1/thesis.pdf

September 15, 2006

Dahl's thesis summarizes the three studies which she co-published. Looks like they really only explored the effects of hydration/diuresis and bacterial contamination in eliciting false positive results in the presence of alcohol consumption. It paid literally no attention to the significance of the two positives in the placebo group except to say, "It can not be excluded that these resulted from unintentional intake, as ethanol is also present in so-called "alcohol-free" beverages (<0.5% ethanol)." She doesn't mention the plethora of other foods besides beverages, nor does she identify that other routes (inhalation or transcutaneous absorption) could have accounted for these positives.

I wrote to Dahl and Helander about their work. Karolinska is renowned for their alcohol research. Helander said, "We have evaluted many potential causes of false positives and negatives and I believe the results will be of interest for those working with and/or using EtG." Likewise, Weinmann acknowledged that at his institute in Germany, they are performing further metabolic studies relative to EtG production. Since research money takes years to go through the channels in the U.S., maybe we could convince these Europeans to continue the EtG work they have started and explore the areas we are interested in. Dan, maybe you should present this information in a way as to entice these researcher's curiosity and find some answers!

Anders Helander Anders.Helander@...

A. Wayne wayne.jones@...

Friedrich Wurst Friedrich.Wurst@...

Wolfgang Weinmann wolfgang.weinmann@...

>> > A recent study about false positives in EtG test. Unfortunately the > study seems to be focusing on that people are drinking alcohol and > the "false positives" may be masking the suspected intentional > consumption. She never addresses anything about endogenous reasons > for varied consumption having any reasons to cause positive > results. Like Dan has pointed out, none of these researchers are > addressing the issue of why those not drinking have such varied > positive EtG levels. I know enough about research that these > scientist seemed to stay in the box that only addresses that EtG can > be detected so many days later. Then they stop there and do not > look at the outliers. Hardly ever a conclusion, if ever, that > further research is needed since EtG levels vary so widely among > people. Regardless, it is a study with much detail that educates > about EtG and worth the read.> > Isanah> > > http://diss.kib.ki.se/2006/91-7140-644-1/thesis.pdf>

September 15, 2006

This is

the study I quoted in my letter. It’s solid research as she

documents everything, describes her methodolgy, reports all of her results and

then performs a discussion. What I did was to take her numbers, subject

them to clinical statistical analysis, and then performed my own

discussion. That’s what peer reviewed science allows; pursuit of

the truth. From what I can ascertain, Ms. Dahl is a biochemical

researcher (and a good one). I do not believe she deliberately eliminated

the clinical statistics. Rather, I suspect she is not a clinician, so

would not be accustomed to the salient clinical statistics needed for practical

use. I think it would be very interesting to somehow get her response to

the generation of predicitive values her numbers permit. Her data is the

only data available that I could find allowing such calculation.

Re:

2006 Study about False EtG positives

hi isanah,wow interesting obviously biased study

focused mostly on what might

decrease EtG in the drinking patient producing false

negatives...very interesting was the notation of unexplainable

variability of EtG over all the other biomarkers across all the studies

noted...thanks for posting this recent info...regards,r

isanahlei

<ddm2903> wrote:

A recent study about false positives in EtG test. Unfortunately the

study seems to be focusing on that people are drinking alcohol and

the " false positives " may be masking the suspected intentional

consumption. She never addresses anything about endogenous reasons

for varied consumption having any reasons to cause positive

results. Like Dan has pointed out, none of these researchers are

addressing the issue of why those not drinking have such varied

positive EtG levels. I know enough about research that these

scientist seemed to stay in the box that only addresses that EtG can

be detected so many days later. Then they stop there and do not

look at the outliers. Hardly ever a conclusion, if ever, that

further research is needed since EtG levels vary so widely among

people. Regardless, it is a study with much detail that educates

about EtG and worth the read.

Isanah

http://diss.kib.ki.se/2006/91-7140-644-1/thesis.pdf

September 15, 2006

I will

do it. Let me work up a letter to the addresses you kindly provide. I’m

a little brain fatigued right now, my place is a mess and I have call this

weekend- so it may not be until next week. If anyone else is so inclined, I’m

fine with you pulling the information from my posts and using them with or

without reference to me.

Re:

2006 Study about False EtG positives

Dahl's thesis summarizes the three studies which she

co-published. Looks like they really only explored the effects of

hydration/diuresis and bacterial contamination in eliciting false positive

results in the presence of alcohol consumption. It paid literally no

attention to the significance of the two positives in the placebo group

except to say, " It can not be excluded that these resulted from

unintentional intake, as ethanol is also present in so-called

" alcohol-free " beverages (<0.5% ethanol). " She doesn't

mention the plethora of other foods besides beverages, nor does she

identify that other routes (inhalation or transcutaneous absorption)

could have accounted for these positives.

I wrote to Dahl and Helander about their work.

Karolinska is renowned for their alcohol research. Helander said, " We

have evaluted many potential causes of false positives and negatives and I

believe the results will be of interest for those working with and/or using

EtG. " Likewise, Weinmann acknowledged that at his institute in Germany,

they are performing further metabolic studies relative to EtG production.

Since research money takes years to go through the channels in the U.S.,

maybe we could convince these Europeans to continue the EtG work they have

started and explore the areas we are interested in. Dan, maybe you should

present this information in a way as to entice these researcher's curiosity and

find some answers!

Anders Helander Anders.Helandercns (DOT) ki.se

A. Wayne wayne.jonesrmv (DOT) se

Friedrich Wurst Friedrich.Wurstupkbs (DOT) ch

Wolfgang Weinmann wolfgang.weinmannuniklinik-freiburg (DOT) de

>

> A recent study about false positives in EtG test. Unfortunately the

> study seems to be focusing on that people are drinking alcohol and

> the " false positives " may be masking the suspected intentional

> consumption. She never addresses anything about endogenous reasons

> for varied consumption having any reasons to cause positive

> results. Like Dan has pointed out, none of these researchers are

> addressing the issue of why those not drinking have such varied

> positive EtG levels. I know enough about research that these

> scientist seemed to stay in the box that only addresses that EtG can

> be detected so many days later. Then they stop there and do not

> look at the outliers. Hardly ever a conclusion, if ever, that

> further research is needed since EtG levels va! ry so widely among

> people. Regardless, it is a study with much detail that educates

> about EtG and worth the read.

>

> Isanah

>

> http://diss.kib.ki.se/2006/91-7140-644-1/thesis.pdf

>

September 15, 2006

Ah, yes, you did reference Dahl's research study! I thought some of

the data sounded familiar! I hadn't caught that you were basing

your data on these most recent study for there is an older study

that basically had similar outliers. The one that had some nuns

participating in the study and basically it was concluded these nuns

either lied or were misguided that they had consumed alcohol in some

other way!

BTW, don't worry I'm not smart enough to decipher what medications

you were alluding to in your other post! I was just curious and I'm

most definitely in support in having this test be accountable rather

than those trying to just adjust their metabolism due to being

falsely accused of relapse.

Isanah

>

> A recent study about false positives in EtG test. Unfortunately

the

> study seems to be focusing on that people are drinking alcohol and

> the " false positives " may be masking the suspected intentional

> consumption. She never addresses anything about endogenous reasons

> for varied consumption having any reasons to cause positive

> results. Like Dan has pointed out, none of these researchers are

> addressing the issue of why those not drinking have such varied

> positive EtG levels. I know enough about research that these

> scientist seemed to stay in the box that only addresses that EtG

can

> be detected so many days later. Then they stop there and do not

> look at the outliers. Hardly ever a conclusion, if ever, that

> further research is needed since EtG levels vary so widely among

> people. Regardless, it is a study with much detail that educates

> about EtG and worth the read.

>

> Isanah

>

> http://diss. <http://diss.kib.ki.se/2006/91-7140-644-1/thesis.pdf>

> kib.ki.se/2006/91-7140-644-1/thesis.pdf

>

September 15, 2006

I have

not seen the study with the nuns. If you can find the reference, then I

can locate it. It’s important to keep adding numbers to that little

table I created. That’s what “meta-analysis” does, but

usually with thousands of subjects. Nonetheless, any study reporting a

control group/period that measures urine EtG against the variable “Alcohol

Consumption” has numbers meeting the criteria to put into our

four-square box of vindication.

Re:

2006 Study about False EtG positives

Ah, yes, you did

reference Dahl's research study! I thought some of