RE: Argument against PEth and CDT

[Guest guest]

hi lorie...again you are absolutely correct that will be the counter argument against the blood biomarkers,that they are not sensitive enough...of course our argument as per madison is that we are being crucified on the basis of a hypersensitive lab test that will always have positivity to some degree because we all make and ingest etoh,some more than others,all innocent use..the witchhunters can make low levels of positivity fit their needs that we are guilty ignoring all other evidence to the contrary. because the blood markers are more specific,they will have a higher level of false negativity,less false positives more false negatives,basically an innocent until proven guilty test as opposed to etg use,guilty till proven innocent test...the old saw that it is better to let a few guilty go than it is to convict one innocent

person... i still think laying down a pattern of normal cdt,the "gold standard",and demonstrating no change in the face of positive etg has value both clinically and legally in this situation...of course clinical correlation is the real gold standard,not any laboratory test...i do not think that a small # 2003 study can stand against the seminal 2004 study out of finland and clinical use of cdt in the best usa rehab centers like betty ford... yet another awesome post,lorie,regards,robin. Lorie Garlick <lorieg@...> wrote: In the 2003 publication on the German psych patients ("Ethyl Glucuronide Discloses Recent Covert Alcohol Use Not Detected by Standard Testing in Forensic Psychiatric Inpatients", Wurst FM, Vogel R, Jachau K, Varga A, Alling C, Alt A, Skipper G: Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 2003 Mar;27(3):471-6)., it states that in the 14 samples positive for EtG, PEth and %CDT did not exceed the reference value in any of the blood samples. Robin, seems like this is just yet another weapon in the arsenal of the EtG camp. Any thoughts? I'm not trying to be argumentative....just trying to come up with

an explanation when it comes down to a hearing. Appreciate your input! Lorie

[Guest guest]

lorie...i had one more thought that probably will not help but i thought i would mention it...many collection sites including the one i visit today disinfect the area of collection with rubbing alcohol...an overzealous collector could have "disinfected" your sample with rubbing alcohol perhaps causing your innocent false positive...if you find any alcohol of any kind in the collection janitorial or nursing areas,could explain things,worth a look...i know in my collection sink,a giant bottle of rubbing alcohol just sits on the sink...it always bothers me,trying to get a negative alcohol reading so close to a major positive etoh scource used to disinfect the collection sink and probably the bathroom every day...hope this helps,good luck, regards,robin. Lorie Garlick <lorieg@...> wrote: In the 2003 publication on the German psych patients ("Ethyl Glucuronide Discloses Recent Covert Alcohol Use Not Detected by Standard Testing in Forensic Psychiatric Inpatients", Wurst FM, Vogel R, Jachau K, Varga A, Alling C, Alt A, Skipper G: Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 2003 Mar;27(3):471-6)., it states that in the 14 samples positive for EtG, PEth and %CDT did not exceed the reference value in any of the blood samples. Robin, seems like this is just yet another weapon in the arsenal of the EtG camp. Any thoughts? I'm not trying to be argumentative....just trying to come up with an explanation when it comes down to a hearing. Appreciate your input! Lorie

[Guest guest]

Robin,

Correct me if I am wrong-but rubbing

alcohol is isopropyl alcohol-and that should not test positive for ethyl

alcohol.

Thanks,

Bonnie

Re:

Argument against PEth and CDT

lorie...i had one more thought that probably will not

help but i thought i would

mention it...many collection sites including the one i

visit today disinfect the

area of collection with rubbing alcohol...an

overzealous collector could have

" disinfected " your sample with rubbing

alcohol perhaps causing your innocent

false positive...if you find any alcohol of any

kind in the collection janitorial or nursing areas,could explain

things,worth a look...i know in my collection sink,a giant bottle

of rubbing alcohol just sits on the sink...it always

bothers me,trying to get a negative

alcohol reading so close to a major positive etoh

scource used to disinfect the

collection sink and probably the bathroom every

day...hope this helps,good luck,

regards,robin.

Lorie Garlick

<lorieg@...> wrote:

In the 2003 publication on the German psych patients

( " Ethyl Glucuronide Discloses Recent Covert Alcohol Use Not Detected by

Standard Testing in Forensic Psychiatric Inpatients " , Wurst FM, Vogel R,

Jachau K, Varga A, Alling C, Alt A, Skipper G: Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 2003

Mar;27(3):471-6)., it states that in

the 14 samples positive for EtG, PEth and %CDT did not exceed the

reference value in any of the blood samples.

Robin, seems like this is just yet another weapon in

the arsenal of the EtG camp. Any thoughts? I'm not trying to be

argumentative....just trying to come up with an explanation when it comes down

to a hearing. Appreciate your input!

Lorie

[Guest guest]

hi bonnie..you are 100% correct,however,it is alcohol...i cannot find precise studies of isopropyl alcohol metabolites in urine and any crossover that may exist...i do find info of ethyl alcohol content in rubbing alcohol...i know it does go into similar pathways in the blood and people get drunk off it:i just bring it up for consideration...what if a collector pours a capful or so into my specimen for kicks or because it should be disinfected or because i am not nice...one of my collectors washes her hands phobically with it before and after collection,not a good thing,i would think...i really do not have the answer,just that clinics use it on everything and that it is alcohol... food for thought and analysis...regards,robin Robin, Correct me if I am wrong-but rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol-and that should not test positive for ethyl alcohol. Thanks, Bonnie -----Original Message-----From: robin murray [mailto:remurraymd@...] Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 5:27 AMEthylglucuronide-EtG Subject: Re: Argument against PEth and CDT lorie...i had one more thought that probably will not help but i thought i would mention it...many collection sites including the one i visit today disinfect the area of collection with rubbing alcohol...an overzealous collector could have "disinfected" your sample with rubbing alcohol perhaps causing your innocent false positive...if you find any alcohol of any kind in the collection janitorial or

nursing areas,could explain things,worth a look...i know in my collection sink,a giant bottle of rubbing alcohol just sits on the sink...it always bothers me,trying to get a negative alcohol reading so close to a major positive etoh scource used to disinfect the collection sink and probably the bathroom every day...hope this helps,good luck, regards,robin. Lorie Garlick <lorieg@...>

wrote: In the 2003 publication on the German psych patients ("Ethyl Glucuronide Discloses Recent Covert Alcohol Use Not Detected by Standard Testing in Forensic Psychiatric Inpatients", Wurst FM, Vogel R, Jachau K, Varga A, Alling C, Alt A, Skipper G: Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 2003 Mar;27(3):471-6)., it states that in the 14 samples positive for EtG, PEth and %CDT did not exceed the reference value in any of the blood samples. Robin, seems like

this is just yet another weapon in the arsenal of the EtG camp. Any thoughts? I'm not trying to be argumentative....just trying to come up with an explanation when it comes down to a hearing. Appreciate your input! Lorie

[Guest guest]

All good points, both Robin & Bonnie. I have adopted, as I think most all of us who have been around awhile re: EtG, zero tolerance when it comes to ANYthing that says ETOH, no matter what specific kind. That has included stearyl & cetyl found in many cosmetic & hygiene products, & there are many cleaning products with some type of ETOH as well. So isopropyl alcohol is just one more relative of the culprit to avoid, at least for me. I will admit that the one thing I have not stopped using, nor will I stop, is hairspray. I cover my mouth with a towel & walk out of the room as the spray is settling in the air. I'm NOT giving up everything that makes me feel good---vanilla flavored foods, balsamic vinegar, & soy sauce are all great losses to me. Don't mess with the hair!!! Robin, care to share any thoughts re: how long-term high-dose daily Tylenol might impact EtG? THAT is the

tree I am barking up. Anyt thoughts re: + EtG's/neg CDT & the Tylenol connection? Thanks. Marsha robin murray <remurraymd@...> wrote: hi bonnie..you are 100% correct,however,it is alcohol...i cannot find precise studies of isopropyl alcohol metabolites in urine and any crossover that may exist...i do find info of ethyl alcohol content in rubbing alcohol...i know it does go into similar pathways in the blood and people get drunk off it:i just bring it up for consideration...what

if a collector pours a capful or so into my specimen for kicks or because it should be disinfected or because i am not nice...one of my collectors washes her hands phobically with it before and after collection,not a good thing,i would think...i really do not have the answer,just that clinics use it on everything and that it is alcohol... food for thought and analysis...regards,robin Robin, Correct me if I am wrong-but rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol-and that should not test positive for ethyl alcohol. Thanks, Bonnie -----Original Message-----From: robin murray [mailto:remurraymd@...] Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 5:27 AMTo:

Ethylglucuronide-EtG Subject: Re: Argument against PEth and CDT lorie...i had one more thought that probably will not help but i thought i would mention it...many collection sites including the one i visit today disinfect the area of collection with rubbing alcohol...an overzealous collector could have "disinfected" your sample with rubbing alcohol perhaps causing your innocent false positive...if you find any alcohol of any kind in the collection janitorial or nursing areas,could explain things,worth a look...i know in my collection sink,a giant bottle of rubbing alcohol just sits on the sink...it always bothers me,trying to get a negative alcohol reading so close to a major positive etoh scource used to disinfect the collection sink and probably the bathroom every day...hope this helps,good luck, regards,robin. Lorie Garlick <lorieg@...> wrote: In the 2003 publication on the German psych patients ("Ethyl Glucuronide Discloses Recent Covert Alcohol Use Not Detected by Standard Testing in Forensic Psychiatric Inpatients", Wurst FM, Vogel R, Jachau K, Varga A, Alling C, Alt A, Skipper G: Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 2003 Mar;27(3):471-6)., it states that in the 14 samples positive for EtG, PEth and

%CDT did not exceed the reference value in any of the blood samples. Robin, seems like this is just yet another weapon in the arsenal of the EtG camp. Any thoughts? I'm not trying to be argumentative....just trying to come up with an explanation when it comes down to a hearing. Appreciate your input! Lorie

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[Guest guest]

hi marsha,i am sure you saw the research data on lfts and tylenol today...obviously 100% decrease in liver function documented with double plus lfts on chronic tylenol users will increase circulating alcohol as well as all biomarkers makedly that depend upon hepatic metabolism...regards,robin Marsha Dienelt <marshadienelt@...> wrote: All good points, both Robin & Bonnie. I have adopted, as I think most all of us who have been around awhile re: EtG, zero tolerance when it

comes to ANYthing that says ETOH, no matter what specific kind. That has included stearyl & cetyl found in many cosmetic & hygiene products, & there are many cleaning products with some type of ETOH as well. So isopropyl alcohol is just one more relative of the culprit to avoid, at least for me. I will admit that the one thing I have not stopped using, nor will I stop, is hairspray. I cover my mouth with a towel & walk out of the room as the spray is settling in the air. I'm NOT giving up everything that makes me feel good---vanilla flavored foods, balsamic vinegar, & soy sauce are all great losses to me. Don't mess with the hair!!! Robin, care to share any thoughts re: how long-term high-dose daily Tylenol might impact EtG? THAT is the tree I am barking up. Anyt thoughts re: + EtG's/neg CDT & the Tylenol connection? Thanks. Marsha robin

murray <remurraymd@...> wrote: hi bonnie..you are 100% correct,however,it is alcohol...i cannot find precise studies of isopropyl alcohol metabolites in urine and any crossover that may exist...i do find info of ethyl alcohol content in rubbing alcohol...i know it does go into similar pathways in the blood and people get drunk off it:i just bring it up for consideration...what if a collector pours a capful or so into my specimen for kicks or because it should be disinfected or because i am not nice...one of my collectors washes her hands phobically with it before and after collection,not a good thing,i would think...i really do not have the answer,just that clinics use it on everything and that it is alcohol... food for thought and analysis...regards,robin Robin, Correct me if I am wrong-but rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol-and that should not test positive for ethyl alcohol. Thanks, Bonnie -----Original Message-----From: robin murray [mailto:remurraymd@...] Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 5:27 AMEthylglucuronide-EtG Subject: Re: Argument against PEth and CDT lorie...i had one more thought that probably will not help but i thought i would mention it...many collection sites including the one i visit today disinfect the area of collection with rubbing alcohol...an overzealous collector could have "disinfected" your sample with rubbing alcohol perhaps causing your innocent false positive...if you find any alcohol of any kind in the collection janitorial or nursing areas,could explain things,worth a look...i know in my collection sink,a

giant bottle of rubbing alcohol just sits on the sink...it always bothers me,trying to get a negative alcohol reading so close to a major positive etoh scource used to disinfect the collection sink and probably the bathroom every day...hope this helps,good luck, regards,robin. Lorie Garlick <lorieg@...> wrote: In the 2003 publication on the German psych patients ("Ethyl Glucuronide Discloses Recent Covert Alcohol Use Not Detected by Standard Testing in Forensic Psychiatric Inpatients", Wurst FM, Vogel R, Jachau K, Varga A, Alling C, Alt A, Skipper G: Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 2003 Mar;27(3):471-6)., it states that in the 14 samples positive for EtG, PEth and %CDT did not exceed the reference value in any of the blood samples. Robin, seems like this is just yet another weapon in the arsenal of the EtG camp. Any thoughts? I'm not

trying to be argumentative....just trying to come up with an explanation when it comes down to a hearing. Appreciate your input! Lorie Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

[Guest guest]

So Tylenol/poor liver function slows down the metabolism of alcohol and it stays in your system longer, it also then increases (not sure of this) USD1 pathway for excretion? and this is your body's way of compensating for the decreased liver function, it actually increases the pathway for the alcohol to be metabolized therefore the EtG level will be higher?

[Guest guest]

hi chris,i am not sure but from what i read it depends on the specific pathway...generally,as liver fucntions decrease,blood and urine metabolites should also decrease,but more specific injury can increase other pathways... regards,robin crssemc@... wrote: So Tylenol/poor liver function slows down the metabolism of alcohol and it stays in your system longer, it also then increases (not sure of this) USD1 pathway for excretion? and this is your

body's way of compensating for the decreased liver function, it actually increases the pathway for the alcohol to be metabolized therefore the EtG level will be higher?