Re: Battery Bob on Rechargeable CI Battery Prices

[Guest guest]

Bob,

You dont need to justify the high cost of the technology we are using.

None of us like it but we DO have a choice. That is, to use it not to use

it. Cell phones are not regulated by the FDA as are the cochlear implants.

I am sure you know that every single piece of the device has to go thru the

FDA process. Does that justofy the high cost of the cochlear implant?

Maybe, maybe not.

For what its worth, you cannot and should not try to compare this to

cell phones. For one thing, there are many many more cell phones in play

than there are cochlear implants.

At any rate, is there relief in sight? Probably not. Would there be

any point to it? Again, probably not. Point: the rechargeable battery has

a working life of what, a year or so? How many are needed? 2 or 4, for the

Freedom, 2 per ear. And. Its a covered item by insurance.

Its alright. Those who have cochlear implants are only too happy to be

able to hear again, regardless of the power source used.

*---* *---* *---* *---* *---*

One thing you can learn by watching the clock is that it passes.

& Dreamer Doll (Guide Dawggie)

Newport, Oregon

N24C 3G 8/2000 Hookup

rclark0276@...

http://webpages.charter.net/dog_guide/

[Guest guest]

Dear , my reply,as interjected,please.

> Re: Battery Bob on Rechargeable CI Battery Prices

>

>

> Bob,

> You dont need to justify the high cost of the technology we

> are using.

> None of us like it but we DO have a choice. That is, to use it

> not to use it.

Disagree. Rechargable battery technology should be available to all CI users

at a reasonable cost.

Cell phones are not regulated by the FDA as are the cochlear

> implants.

That is a truth

> I am sure you know that every single piece of the device has to

> go thru the

> FDA process.

I am aware of that, ,

Does that justofy the high cost of the cochlear implant?

> Maybe, maybe not.

NO, it Does not!

>

> For what its worth, you cannot and should not try to compare this to

> cell phones. For one thing, there are many many more cell phones in play

> than there are cochlear implants.

Yes, I know

>

> At any rate, is there relief in sight? Probably not. Would there be

> any point to it? Again, probably not.

INHO, not at all! The prices need to be cut dramatically!

Point: the rechargeable

> battery has

> a working life of what, a year or so? How many are needed? 2 or

> 4, for the

> Freedom, 2 per ear. And. Its a covered item by insurance.

>

> Its alright. Those who have cochlear implants are only too

> happy to be

> able to hear again, regardless of the power source used.

There, Dear , I will heatily concur!

Bob

...........

>

> *---* *---* *---* *---* *---*

> One thing you can learn by watching the clock is that it passes.

> & Dreamer Doll (Guide Dawggie)

> Newport, Oregon

> N24C 3G 8/2000 Hookup

> rclark0276@...

> http://webpages.charter.net/dog_guide/

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you consider the cost of the rechargeable battery as compared to the cost

of an implant, and then the cost of a cell phone battery to the cost of the

call phone itself, I'd say the implant battery was a true bargain!!

Let's see, the way you put it, Bob, the CI battery to the processor is about

$150 to $7000 which is about 2% give or take. The cost of a cell phone

battery you offer to be $20 while the typcial cell phone costs, what... $150?

That

is a whopping 13%.

Your posts that give information like battery weights, battery life, etc are

good and useful. But you don't even have an implant so please stop

complaining.

[Guest guest]

Bob,

You said, " INHO, not at all! The prices need to be cut dramatically! "

And how would this be done?

*---* *---* *---* *---* *---*

A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.

--

& Dreamer Doll (Guide Dawggie)

Newport, Oregon

N24C 3G 8/2000 Hookup

rclark0276@...

http://webpages.charter.net/dog_guide/

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi all! I am having a hard time in justification in the prices

charged by

> Cochlear and Advanced Bionics...of their offerings in rechargeable

battery options.

> ...But, alike, the price tag for a single Lithium Ion battery ( AB

the PowerCel Plus) from the makers @ $US 195.00

When similar for cell phones at about $ 20.00 when similar for cell

phones at about $ 20.00.

> Battery Bob

Hello Battery Bob,

I'd like to hear from the implant companies myself but 'moving

forward' is my primary goal. Some questions: Are we required to use

the manufactuer's product? Will a lithium battery from any other

manufacturer fit into the battery cage (specifically the Freedom BTE).

If cell batteries are 20 bucks, can they be substituted for implant

batteries, rechargable or otherwise?

I will be receiving the upgrade Freedom with a rechargable battery kit

included at no extra cost. I'm okay with that but am also looking

into the costs of both the rechargables and disposable batteries for

the Nucleus Freedom. A friend was recently implanted with the

Freedom and chose disposable batteries. Now she is involved in using

high mapping strategies at 1800 hz and 2400 hz; her 3 batteries are

lasting less than a day and she is currently unemployed. What's the

answer? It appears to me that while the implant does work, and works

extremely well, how is one to afford the cost of operating?

This is an extremely serious question and I think begs a solution and

not " chatter " from the manufacturers.

What say you? Anyone including manufacturers is asked to respond.

Gayle from Georgia

[Guest guest]

Gayle,

The rechargeable batteries are indeed proprietary, That means, yes you

are required to use the batteries designed by the maker of your cochlear

implant.

Keep in mind that the Freedom allows use of both technologies. You can

use either the disposables or the rechargeables...or both. Therre is no

having to change the Freedom's physical configuration, just slide in the

appropriate controller.

*---* *---* *---* *---* *---*

After they make Styrofoam, what do they ship it in?

& Dreamer Doll (Guide Dawggie)

Newport, Oregon

N24C 3G 8/2000 Hookup

rclark0276@...

http://webpages.charter.net/dog_guide/

[Guest guest]

Economies of scale - how many cell phones in the world, and how many CIs

that take non-standard rechargeables?

The millionsof ell phones make it worth different manufacturers ramping up

for production and comptetion drives down pricing. Hard to see a battery

maker saying, about CI batteries, - " Hey, we might sell a few hundred of

these things - lets set up a production line "

NZ

Battery Bob on Rechargeable CI Battery Prices

Hi all! I am having a hard time in justification in the prices charged by

Cochlear and Advanced Bionics for their, albeit proprietary and with thus

reduced distribution, of their offerings in rechargeable battery options.

New to Cochlear in the Next Generation Freedom - Old hat for AB.

But, alike, the price tag for a single Lithium Ion battery ( AB the

PowerCel Plus) from the makers @ $US 195.00

When similar for cell phones at about $ 20.00.

Before I label them as akin to Gillette, where the razors were cheap, the

blades not so,,

Opportunity here for representatives of the companies to chime in, or

forever hold your peace!

Battery Bob

...........

[Guest guest]

From: " " <rclark0276@...>

> Gayle,

> The rechargeable batteries are indeed proprietary, That means, yes

you

> are required to use the batteries designed by the maker of your cochlear

> implant.

Bob, any idea what the ampere hour capacity of either the Cochlear or AB

cells is?

Virg

[Guest guest]

Virg, I've pondered the battery capacity thing and don't have clue. For sure

it's far less for the rechargeables than the Zinc Air though!

Bob

...........

> Re: Re: Battery Bob on Rechargeable CI Battery Prices

>

>

> From: " " <rclark0276@...>

>

> > Gayle,

> > The rechargeable batteries are indeed proprietary, That means, yes

> you

> > are required to use the batteries designed by the maker of your cochlear

> > implant.

>

> Bob, any idea what the ampere hour capacity of either the Cochlear or AB

> cells is?

>

> Virg

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Gayle

I am using the Freedom with an 1800 map and I have been keeping a

check on what battery life I get, for a few weeks now. I first

started with a 2400 map on HI-ACE and was getting about 18-19 hours

of actual use from 3 of the 675 disposables. With the 1800 map, I am

now getting about 33-34 hours of actual use.

I was also supplied with the body worn pack, rechargeable batteries

and a charger when I got my Freedom, wasnt your friend supplied with

the same pack? I have never used the re-chargeable ones.

As she has her implant longer, its quite possible that her mapping

strategy will change to a lower speed and then her batteries will

last longer.

Ted F.

>

> A friend was recently implanted with the Freedom and chose

> disposable batteries. Now she is involved in using high mapping

> strategies at 1800 hz and 2400 hz; her 3 batteries are lasting less

> than a day and she is currently unemployed. What's the answer?

> What say you? Anyone including manufacturers is asked to respond.

>

> Gayle from Georgia

>

[Guest guest]

The rechargeable batteries are indeed proprietary, That means, yes

you

> are required to use the batteries designed by the maker of your cochlear

> implant.

I find this statement a bit confusing. If you are speaking of the " Freedom "

only allowing you to use the rechargeable batteries designed for it, I

cannot dispute that since I don't have the Freedom BTE as yet. BUT....This

is

just not so of the Cochlear products that I own. The Nucelus 24 Body

Processor uses 2AA batteries, I have used the 2AAs purchased from Cochlear as

well

as Energizer Brand and Duracell. I cannot tell any difference in sound

quality with any of them. Of course, I see that the Freedom BTE Rechargeable

is

entirely different and doesn't use 2AA batteries - but, I did want to make

this clear to those who don't yet have their implants. Most all posts talk

about the BTEs....and I've yet to see anything said about the body processors.

I

do wear the BTE a lot now - but, it is just mostly for convenience and NOT

because I like the sound quality better than the body worn processor. In

fact, if I know that I'll need an extra edge in hearing in a situation, I will

wear my body processor. It allows me to determine which program to choose,

which sensitivity level, and volume. In other words, you have more choices for

the particular situation you are in trying to hear as best you can AND has

the different plug in adapters that you can use on the phone, cassette tapes,

etc. The microphone cord is nice at times as well. I have personally found

this nice when on a trip with someone. You can drive and plug that

microphone in and place it on a companion to hear them very well instead of

having to

" look " to hear. (assisted by lip reading which most - if not all of us have

become accustomed to doing).

I have also used the 675 non-rechargeable batteries purchased from Cochlear

for my BTE as well as other brands. They all seem to work about the same and

so long as they are good batteries, it doesn't matter if they are purchased

from Cochlear or the drugstore.

So, if the Freedom Rechargeable batteries " must " be those purchased from

Cochlear, it is the only one that I know of that " must " use the Cochlear

batteries.

I just wanted to make this clear to those of you who are not yet implantees

and are trying to find out all you can about what your expenses in

maintenance will be.

Evon/OKC

[Guest guest]

Evan,

We *are* talking aboiut the rechargeables used for the Freedom BTE. You

can NOT buy off the shelf rechargeables for the Freedom BTE. I think I did

also say that there are AA and AAA rechargeables available for the BWPs

(Sprint and Freedom) but we are not talking about those. which are indeed

off the shelf anywhere.

*---* *---* *---* *---* *---*

Oliver's Law: A closed mouth gathers no feet.

& Dreamer Doll (Guide Dawggie)

Newport, Oregon

N24C 3G 8/2000 Hookup

rclark0276@...

http://webpages.charter.net/dog_guide/

[Guest guest]

Remember also that rechargables are 'proprietary' because they

require specific size, shape, and weight parameters to function

effectively.

Al Mann started Quallion battery several years ago for the very

reason that AB was waiting and waiting for the battery industry to

offer smaller more customizable and more powerful batteries. They

found the BTE needs were unique enough and the market small enough

that it wasn't intersting to the typical battery mfg.

Like most industries, they get most of their revenue from consumer

use, which is an enormous market and growing exponentially with

ipods, phones, and a zillion other high volume gadgets.

So their financial incentive to develop batteries in shapes and sizes

to power computers which hang on the ear, was non-existant.

The technology was possible, just not profit margins in comparison to

consumer products. It'd be like getting Microsoft to develop CI

mapping software. It's not that they couldn't, but compared to the

huge markets of their existing softare, it wouldn't make good

business sense to spend money on something so specialized unless they

built the implants and BTEs too (and most of us wouldn't want either

MS or Google to do that). So Cochlear, Med-El and AB develop their

own software, each of which is proprietary, as are their rechargable

batteries.

AB now buys batteries from: " Quallion LLC http://www.quallion.com

[which] is an emerging technology and high quality manufacturing

company dedicated to the development, engineering, and

commercialization of customizable, safe, and highly reliable battery

products and battery management systems.

From energizing neurobionics to powering satellites for wireless

communications, our vision is to develop innovative battery solutions

for the improvement of life and the way we live it. "

Cochlear probably buys from a similar type company, or may build

their own as AB used to until Al started Quallion.

The key for BTE use is 'customizable, safe and highly reliable.'

Typical consumer products don't have quite the same stringent

requirements, except what's driven by a huge consumer demand, and

that means if mgg A doesn't meet it, there's a large enough market

for mfg B & C to steal customers by doing so. The market for CIs is

not quite that huge, and probably never will be.

None-the-less, it's pretty amazing we have 3 great competitive

choices as it is, given the market size in comparison to wireless

telephony. How many cell carries do you have to choose from?

Verizon, Cingular, Sprint, and a few who just resell airtime on the

big 3?

Think about it, we have a lot to be thankful for in that we have so

many options for a relatively small market.

Steve

>

> In a nutshell, here's the confusion: The rechargeable batteries

for the BTE processors are propietary and fit only the make and

models specified. I don't know where Cochlear gets theirs, but ABs

design came right of Al Mann's Quallion in Sylmar, California, a

pioneer in advanced LI battery technologThe BWPs, using stardard

NEMA penlight cells, are of course interchangeable.

>

> Bob

> ..............

>

>

> >

> > From: EBurk56622@...

> > Date: 2006/11/01 Wed AM 09:29:58 EST

> >

> > Subject: Re: Battery Bob on Rechargeable CI Battery

Prices

> >

> >

> > The rechargeable batteries are indeed proprietary, That means,

yes

> > you

> > > are required to use the batteries designed by the maker of

your cochlear

> > > implant.

> >

> >

> > I find this statement a bit confusing. If you are speaking of

the " Freedom "

> > only allowing you to use the rechargeable batteries designed

for it, I

> > cannot dispute that since I don't have the Freedom BTE as

yet. BUT....This is

> > just not so of the Cochlear products that I own. The Nucelus 24

Body

> > Processor uses 2AA batteries, I have used the 2AAs purchased

from Cochlear as well

> > as Energizer Brand and Duracell. I cannot tell any difference

in sound

> > quality with any of them. Of course, I see that the Freedom BTE

Rechargeable is

> > entirely different and doesn't use 2AA batteries - but, I did

want to make

> > this clear to those who don't yet have their implants. Most all

posts talk

> > about the BTEs....and I've yet to see anything said about the

body processors. I

> > do wear the BTE a lot now - but, it is just mostly for

convenience and NOT

> > because I like the sound quality better than the body worn

processor. In

> > fact, if I know that I'll need an extra edge in hearing in a

situation, I will

> > wear my body processor. It allows me to determine which program

to choose,

> > which sensitivity level, and volume. In other words, you have

more choices for

> > the particular situation you are in trying to hear as best you

can AND has

> > the different plug in adapters that you can use on the phone,

cassette tapes,

> > etc. The microphone cord is nice at times as well. I have

personally found

> > this nice when on a trip with someone. You can drive and plug

that

> > microphone in and place it on a companion to hear them very well

instead of having to

> > " look " to hear. (assisted by lip reading which most - if not

all of us have

> > become accustomed to doing).

> >

> > I have also used the 675 non-rechargeable batteries purchased

from Cochlear

> > for my BTE as well as other brands. They all seem to work about

the same and

> > so long as they are good batteries, it doesn't matter if they

are purchased

> > from Cochlear or the drugstore.

> > So, if the Freedom Rechargeable batteries " must " be those

purchased from

> > Cochlear, it is the only one that I know of that " must " use the

Cochlear

> > batteries.

> > I just wanted to make this clear to those of you who are not yet

implantees

> > and are trying to find out all you can about what your expenses

in

> > maintenance will be.

> > Evon/OKC

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Steve,

It seems you know a lot about rechargeable batteries. Thanks for all

the info. Do you, by any chance, have any insight or insider info

into how development of batteries for fully implantable CIs is coming

along?

Thanks,

Lydia

[Guest guest]

Only 2nd hand, and the info I hear is that batteries are still the

roadblock slowing things down.

I know they have microphones for under the skin which work well, and

electronices that are small enough, but power is the issue.

I've heard surgeons mention the first products may have a battery

that lasts 1-2 years, after which you'd have to resort to something

external, but no one is sure it would sell.

Another one I heard was a rechargeable battery similar to the

removable magnet, which you'd have to have the doc replace every

couple years through a minor incision and a couple stitches. They

might as well do an MRI while they have you open, just for

diagnostics.

I'm not sure if anyone has decided recharging through the skin is a

realistic and safe option over a life time. Think of an electric

toothbrush getting warm, and whether you want that much energy being

wirelessly transmitted near your brain every day. The CI signal is

pretty low, but to charge a processor battery, that's different.

And there are other rumors like that, but in the end, it doesn't

sound like anyone has solved the battery issue acceptably yet.

Bob might know more. He's a battery officianado, aren't you bob?

I personally think it'll take a seriously convenient solution before

consumers will choose it over a small BTE. And if they can get a

battery small enough for internal, think about how much smaller a BTE

could be. 1/2 the size of the current BTEs is battery.

I gues it depends whether minor surgery every couple years is worth

being able to hear yourself sing in the shower or listen to all the

screaming kids at the pool.

I would think an ITE (In The Ear) device might be more realistic,

especially if they could make it water proof. Not splash resistant,

but water *proof.* Then you could hear your spouse snore without

repeat surgeries for battery replacement.

Steve

>

> Steve,

> It seems you know a lot about rechargeable batteries. Thanks for

all

> the info. Do you, by any chance, have any insight or insider info

> into how development of batteries for fully implantable CIs is

coming

> along?

>

> Thanks,

> Lydia

>

[Guest guest]

On Nov 15, 2006, at 2:55 AM, Steve Fuchs wrote:

> Interesting, meei did not show me anything internal, just the

> regular one with the

battery charger. are these in the development stage? Leila

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi Leila,

Do you go to MEEI (Mass Eye and Ear Infirmary)? That is different

from an MEI (Middle Ear Implant)!

I was asking about rechargeable batteries and fully implantable CIs --

that is how we started talking about middle ear implants, which are

not cochlear implants but are fully implanted, so there may be some

similarities with regards to battery technology.

Steve -- thanks for the fully implantable info -- interesting.

Lydia from Massachusetts (my son with bilateral CIs is seen at

Children's Hospital Boston)

>

> > Interesting, meei did not show me anything internal, just the

> > regular one with the

> battery charger. are these in the development stage? Leila

[Guest guest]

Yes, Lydia, I go to MEEI.. Leila

On Nov 15, 2006, at 10:56 AM, Lydia Gregoret wrote:

>

>