Re: to Lee

May 29, 2000

Hi Lee,

Just wanted to echo what others have said about cognitive-behavioral therapy

(CBT) and exposure & response prevention being the first line of treatment for

OCD in kids. I too tend to prefer " alternative " treatments as a first step, but

sometimes for some kids they really need the SSRIs to cope.

We had amazing results using the CBT without meds and saw a huge difference in

just 10 weeks with my 8 yr old daughter. She was very severe but turned around

quickly. This may be because I diagnosed her within weeks of onset (thanks to my

on-the-ball pediatrician) and had access to one of the very best OCD therapists.

So, if you'd like to avoid meds, I suggest you look for a qualified CBT

therapist as a first step. If you can't find a

therapist, you can do this therapy yourself with your son using the books that

Kathy H. recommended. Your success will likely depend on how how willing your

son is to work with you. Feel free to ask questions and we will help on the

list.

As for homeopathy, I continue to use this with my kids with mixed results. I

can't say that it noticeably had on an effect on her OCD (but I did try several

remedies with the help of a homeopath), but then again....she did have an

amazingly quick recovery when I take the long view, so who knows? At one point,

I forwarded a post to this list from a homeopathy list my sister belongs to,

where a woman shared her very positive experience treating

her child's OCD with homeopathy.

Good luck and take care,

in San Diego

September 15, 2000

Hi Lee,

You wrote:

I tried pulling her up in my lap and talking and she would have

none of that....simply WANTS HER WAY. Sooo...I sent her to her room, told

her it was the end of that subject and not to come out until she could hav a

better attitude and apologize for her hateful words and disrespect. I have

kept it together so far, but I am getting so very frustrated.....is this

early teenagerhood at 9? OCD? a hurt, angry child? and /of all of the

above?

I share your frustration here. This is the main behavior (symptom?) I'm seeing

with Kelsey, my mostly recovered from OCD eight year old and we've been living

just the scenario you described. It's almost OCPDish in nature. She has little

ability to see anyone's perspective but her own. However, she's also become

extremely helpful over the past months since I've been laid out recovering from

hip surgery. I've seen a lot of new self-help behaviors, willingness to help her

brother get a snack, pour him a drink, etc.

The problem is that when she plays, she has to be in control and make up all the

rules. She's also quick to mis-read other's intentions towards her and assume

the worst. As far as I know, it's going OK with other kids at school but at

home, her anger seems to escalate quickly until she's yelling over the least

little thing. She's not really tantruming, but is quick to raise her voice to a

frightening level!

I think this is some waxing OCD about control and her anger is her desparation

at trying to maintain control. We saw some of this a year ago. For CBT, I used

to reward her and (her brother) for playing " the 2 minute game. " In the

game, she has to be passive in whatever they're doing for two minutes. She can

phrase her suggestions as questions but cannot direct or " tell " hiim to do

anything. I noticed, after a week or so of this, that her mode switched to more

asking rather than telling.

Unfortunately, she's changed a lot in the past yearand I don't think this game

will go over as well so I may have to think of something new. There seems to

have been a real shift (I hesitate to call it maturity!) from her naive nature

and willingnes to work with me to pre-teen stuff...a smart mouth, rolling her

eyes at my suggestions, etc.

So, perhaps it's the age and perhaps it's OCD...let me know if you have any

great ideas!

Take care,

in San Diego

September 15, 2000

Hi

My son turned 10 in June and although profoundly gifted I had not had

the kind of sarcastic/rolling of the eyes/your're just my mum-type

behaviour until I tried him in school. He has been homeschooled since

kindergarten and he came home with this type of attitude on his FIRST

day in a class for gifted kids at the local state primary school. He was

also extremely hyperactive from this point on and his anxiety symptoms

also increased which led to me discovering he had OCD.

After years of relative cooperation and respect I took all that I could

put up with of this (and the associated hyperactvity) and after a couple

of weeks returned him to homeschooling. It has taken some weeks to see a

return to his normal behaviour but I am seeing it now. His evening

compulsions have almost disappeared and I am glad that our relationship

has returned to what is 'normal' for us. I think Brenton decided he no

longer needed my approbation when he had his teachers to impress, or

perhaps he was taking out his accumulated frustrations on me (as I don't

think he was acting out at school). I give a lot to my son and expect

respect in return in the form of giving me a fair hearning and no

willful disobediance. Of course, he is not always cooperative but I draw

the line at the kind of sarcasm that seems to underlie attitudes to

authority that seem to abound in western education. In other words, I

think that this is the age that kids learn at school that their peers

are a more influential authority than their parents.

Just an opinion,

Rosie

Re: To Lee

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>

> Hi Lee,

>

> You wrote:

> I tried pulling her up in my lap and talking and she would have

> none of that....simply WANTS HER WAY. Sooo...I sent her to her room,

told

> her it was the end of that subject and not to come out until she could

hav a

> better attitude and apologize for her hateful words and disrespect. I

have

> kept it together so far, but I am getting so very frustrated.....is

this

> early teenagerhood at 9? OCD? a hurt, angry child? and /of all of

the

> above?

>

> I share your frustration here. This is the main behavior (symptom?)

I'm seeing with Kelsey, my mostly recovered from OCD eight year old and

we've been living just the scenario you described. It's almost OCPDish

in nature. She has little ability to see anyone's perspective but her

own. However, she's also become extremely helpful over the past months

since I've been laid out recovering from hip surgery. I've seen a lot of

new self-help behaviors, willingness to help her brother get a snack,

pour him a drink, etc.

>

> The problem is that when she plays, she has to be in control and make

up all the rules. She's also quick to mis-read other's intentions

towards her and assume the worst. As far as I know, it's going OK with

other kids at school but at home, her anger seems to escalate quickly

until she's yelling over the least little thing. She's not really

tantruming, but is quick to raise her voice to a frightening level!

>

> I think this is some waxing OCD about control and her anger is her

desparation at trying to maintain control. We saw some of this a year

ago. For CBT, I used to reward her and (her brother) for playing

" the 2 minute game. " In the game, she has to be passive in whatever

they're doing for two minutes. She can phrase her suggestions as

questions but cannot direct or " tell " hiim to do anything. I noticed,

after a week or so of this, that her mode switched to more asking rather

than telling.

>

> Unfortunately, she's changed a lot in the past yearand I don't think

this game will go over as well so I may have to think of something new.

There seems to have been a real shift (I hesitate to call it maturity!)

from her naive nature and willingnes to work with me to pre-teen

stuff...a smart mouth, rolling her eyes at my suggestions, etc.

>

> So, perhaps it's the age and perhaps it's OCD...let me know if you

have any great ideas!

>

> Take care,

>

> in San Diego

>

> You may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... .

In the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. You may

subscribe to the Parents of Adults with OCD List at

parentsofadultswithOCD . You may access

the files, links, and archives for our list at

. Our list advisors are

Tamar Chansky, Ph.D., and Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D. Our list

moderators are Birkhan, Kathy Hammes, Jule Monnens, Gail Pesses,

Roman, and Jackie Stout. Subscription issues, problems, or

suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at

harkins@... .

>

September 16, 2000

Hi once again Kelsey sounds like 's twin. What you are

describing is excacty what we are going through. Its like reading my own

thoughts. Have a great weekend!! Nikki in O'town

September 16, 2000

Rosie:

Although your son's behavior might be related to the school environment, it is

probably more complicated than you think. It requires a great deal of effort on

my son's part to be able to keep his symptoms at bay and under control at

school. School is not nearly as safe a place as is home -- not only safe to let

out the ocd monster, but also safe in terms of being loved for who he is, ocd

and all. All of this means that when he gets home he MAY be confrontational,

his symptoms may escalate, etc. But it is not deliberate on his part -- it is

just that he has worked so hard during the day to remain in control. I don't

accept inappropriate behavior, but will tolerate minor infractions knowing that

he has struggled to be " normal " at school.

I am impressed at your ability to home school. I would never have the patience

and, truth be told, I selfishly need to get away to work during the day. It

recharges my batteries so that I can deal with ocd at home.

Jule

September 16, 2000

----- Original Message -----

Jule wrote:It requires a great deal of effort onmy son's part to be able to keep his symptoms at bay and under control atschool. School is not nearly as safe a place as is home -- not only safe to letout the ocd monster, but also safe in terms of being loved for who he is, ocdand all. All of this means that when he gets home he MAY be confrontational,his symptoms may escalate, etc. But it is not deliberate on his part -- it isjust that he has worked so hard during the day to remain in control.

I agree. When my son started kindergarten, he would be great at school, then come home and just be horrible! After he calmed down, he would tell me, "I'm sorry Mom, I just used up all of my good at school."

September 17, 2000

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>

> Rosie:

>

> Although your son's behavior might be related to the school

environment, it is

> probably more complicated than you think.

Having an ADHD/SI undiagnosed OCD, profoundly gifted child is anything

but simple. I was simplifying my point and I did point out that my son

may well have been taking out the anxiety accumulated while at school

when he got home. Sorry if it didn't look like that's what I said.

It requires a great deal of effort on

> my son's part to be able to keep his symptoms at bay and under control

at

> school. School is not nearly as safe a place as is home -- not only

safe to let

> out the ocd monster, but also safe in terms of being loved for who he

is, ocd

> and all. All of this means that when he gets home he MAY be

confrontational,

> his symptoms may escalate, etc. But it is not deliberate on his

part -- it is

> just that he has worked so hard during the day to remain in control.

I don't

> accept inappropriate behavior, but will tolerate minor infractions

knowing that

> he has struggled to be " normal " at school.

I wasn't trying to say that my son's behaviour was the schools fault,

but rather I see in many other kids around here an attitude to authority

that I don't normally experience with my son and I think that may be

because he is homeschooled.

> I am impressed at your ability to home school. I would never have the

patience

> and, truth be told, I selfishly need to get away to work during the

day. It

> recharges my batteries so that I can deal with ocd at home.

>

> Jule

I wasn't necessarily recommending homeschooling. I think most parents of

OCD kids need the time out. My son is homeschooled because the

coursework he does is that normally undertaken by students at the end of

their school years rather than primary school. This makes it difficult

for him to exist within the typical school environment and even within

gifted classes. Giftedness comes in a range and some kids are more

extreme than others, requiring more radical educational programs. This

causes extra stress on the most gifted kids if their social and academic

understanding is phenomenally more advanced than even other gifted kids

around them. EAch child is unique and my reasons for homeschooling are

as unique as my child. His anxiety is anxiety, energy levels and so on

are related to his partiular viewpoint in relation to the world and how

it perceives him.

What I'm trying to say is that for him, homeschooling is good for his

OCD, ADHD and giftedness and may be good for some others too, but then

again, it might not. By presenting my experiences it gives another

option for others to consider in light of their own needs.

Regards

Rosie

>

> You may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... .

In the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. You may

subscribe to the Parents of Adults with OCD List at

parentsofadultswithOCD . You may access

the files, links, and archives for our list at

. Our list advisors are

Tamar Chansky, Ph.D., and Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D. Our list

moderators are Birkhan, Kathy Hammes, Jule Monnens, Gail Pesses,

Roman, and Jackie Stout. Subscription issues, problems, or

suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at

harkins@... .

>

April 6, 2002

In a message dated 4/6/2002 11:12:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,

writes:

> I saw your post to in which you said that your son is doing a month of

>

> homebound school to reduce anxiety. Is this in cooperation with your

> school

> system and how does it work? Is Sam able to transition ok? I have a 15yo

> whose OCD problems are clustered around work production and I'm very

> interested!!

>

Hi Lee - School has been tough for Sam since around 4th grade (which - now,

with hindsight - is when we believe his OCD symptoms started following a year

of chronic strep infections...), and I think it would be fair to say he has

pretty much hated every single day - despite having several teachers he

really liked and despite being a kid who really loves to learn and gets along

well with others. Getting his OCD and ADD diagnosed and treated was a help

- kept him from being tearful and " sick " literally every day at the thought

of going to school - but it didn't take away the problem. I posted earlier

about Sam beginning to just " walk out " of school several months ago, saying

he couldn't take it - and we got lots of good advice. Well, things escalated

from that time - he found more and more sophisticated ways to walk out

without being caught. People who cared about him were concerned and let us

know - we discovered that he had been leaving many days when we thought he

was in school. When we confronted him, he insisted he was " trying to stay

sane " . Things finally reached the breaking point - we was furious and

resistant all the time - we had to take drastic action to get our

relationship back and just " stop the bleeding " . We consulted with Sam's

therapist and decided to request a month of medical homebound instruction to

let things calm down - our school division has to grant this with a formal

request from a physician, psychiatrist or clinical psychologist. It's been

only 3 days so far and I have my boy back! Sam said yesterday, " I'm

beginning to feel like a human being again. " The maximum the school system

will provide is 2 hours per day, so we are picking up the slack to give him a

full and structured " school day " . He meets the homebound teacher in the

library of the university here every morning at 8:00 and they work until

10:00. Then we come home and he has an hour of physical exercise, lunch,

about an hour of work with his music (he plays his guitar and bass) or

painting, and then the last 2 hours of the day are " homework " . The day ends

around 3:00 and he meets his friends after school, just as he did before the

homebound. It's a great temporary solution - but this is only his freshman

year and we have 3 more years to go! We are working with the therapist now

with the hope of having a " plan " for next year before school is out for the

summer. I have worked for this school system for many years, so I was able

to coordinate the homebound very quickly. Someone has to stay on top of it

to be sure a good teacher is found, that the assignments are collected and

returned - there are lots of loose ends; we are lucky that Sam is highly

motivated to do this so he doesn't need prompting to get the work done and he

works really well independently. Sam's dad and I are taking turns staying

home with him. It is a temporary solution - our therapist says that if OCD

is the big issue here, once the novelty of the new schedule wears off we may

begin to see the anxiety creep back up again around the assignments. Or it

may be that Sam has simply had all he can take of our public high school here

and we need to look at an alternative way to do high school. I'm grateful to

have this option while we figure things out. Sam does not have an IEP or

504 plan, we did this through regular ed. Let me know if any more info would

be helpful to you. Cyndi in VA

April 6, 2002