Re:quoting and the subject of problems - long post

[Guest guest]

Hi Lyn, I hope you' [and others] will be interested and perhaps surprised at

what I have to say on the subject of quoting. In this message I will also

talk about " defining a problem " and " ownership of a problem " .

<< The one thing I used to feel was a " real " nuisance

was when someone would answer my e-mail and totally

take out what I was saying but yet they would answer

parts and pieces of whatever they chose. Then I'd

have to go back and look up what I sent in order to

remember what the heck they were referring to. >>

That's simply bad quoting. Sounds like something that might occur in an

argumentative environment where people are trying to PROVE themselves right

and the other person wrong. I belong to around 24 lists/forums; I do not find

that kind of contentious environment in any of those forums. Hence the

problem you refer to does not come up. Similarly, I find that people

interested in EFT are not consumed with pride that forces THEM to be right at

the expense of someone else being wrong ... and hence resort to misleading

quoting.

<< if someone was in disagreement with me, they would chop out areas that " I "

thought was important and twist what I was saying. >>

See my comments above.

<< Since I'm on about 5 lists currently, you can imagine that I'm not exactly

going

to remember everything I've said to whom, when and where. I may remember

parts and pieces of it, but not enough to give a sane reply. >>

My experience on all of the other lists that I'm on is that SELECTIVE quoting

helps, not hurts. It saves time and bandwidth but communicates the message.

<< So, while I get that a person should clip the

areas they are interested in and just send those, it

doesn't bother me in the slightest if they simply

leave my e-mail as it was and answer the whole thing

above it. >>

(1) My guess is that you receive individual messages rather than digests.

With individual messages you can just ignore trailing quoting complete

messages. The people getting digest mode have to wade through it.

(2) Speaking of ignore, did you miss my point about:

" If two quoted lines were enough to tell what the person is responding to,

then with regard to what was quoted:

* The computer server is having to store FIFTY TIMES

more information than is necessary.

* For every 100 people who are subscribers to the list,

the Internet is having to transmit FIVE THOUSAND

TIMES more information than is necessary.

* Other people on the list are having to wade through

FIFTY TIMES more old information than they should have to. "

<< For the " lazy " people out there (including

myself) sometimes its just easier to answer above and

send the whole enchilada to the list. >>

Regarding " easier ... to send the whole enchilada " is there ANY point at

which you'd say " enough already " ? For example, in the digest I'm quoting

from, one person " quoted " ALL of the messages from a previous digest.

Shouldn't this be okay with you too, based on what you've written to me on

the subject? Wouldn't this person likely feel inhibited about further posting

if you were to say anything?

Etiquette = courtesy = showing consideration for the other person. Just

sending the whole enchilada says in effect, " I no not value/respect your

time. Therefore I'm not going to use MY time to make my communication to you

more efficient for you. "

<< I actually do not see too many people complaining about this type of

thing.

I think its about 1 out of every 2 or 3 hundred people, believe it or not. >>

(1) Most people on any list are lurkers, not posters.

(2) Even many people who DO post are likely to not have enough personal self

confidence to post something that someone else may disagree with -- say to

them, " You are wrong. "

<< Now, surprisingly enough, here's what happens many

a time when someone - out of the blue - starts to put

in netiquette of " how " to communicate. The list

starts to die down and people become less willing to

communicate. I've seen this happen several times. >>

I own a list with over 300 members. It's for people who are preferred

customers of Melaleuca - a manufacturer of household consumables that sells

factory direct.

All quoting on that list is selective. In the last 6 months we've averaged

312 posts per month. I regularly get unsolicited e-mails from list members

sent directly to me thanking me for the " great job you're doing! " . It is a

very successful, active list.

I also find that on other lists I belong to where selective quoting

[consideration for others] is the norm, there is no inhibition for people to

post.

<< So, here's what I'm going to suggest to you, Rich.

I suggest you apply EFT to whatever emotions you are

feeling towards in connection to how people are

communicating and what you have to " put up with " , etc. >>

Now we get down to how this relates to the whole notion of problems - which

of course is " core stuff " for EFT. In all of life we routinely encounter

elements of situations that we don't especially like. We have two basic

choices. We can either decide to be passive and put up with the irksome

element or we can choose to try to improve the situation. My usual

inclination is the latter. To give you examples of what I mean by that let me

slip back into INTRODUCTION MODE -- more background on myself.

* Two decades ago the norm was smoking was allowed in flight on commercial

airliners. I lobbied the airlines and the government to address the problem

of second hand smoke in this very confined environment. No-smoking is now the

norm on USA commercial airline flights. On this and subsequent examples I was

only one of many activists.

* Quite a few years ago I helped to lobby for the [current] Minnesota clean

air act which required MN restaurants to offer a no smoking area for their

customers.

* In MN alternative health care providers [EFT would be an example] were

getting harassed by the allopathic [traditional] medical community [whose

customers were more and more moving over to alternative health care

providers!]. I lobbied for legislation to let the alternative health care

providers to " do their thing " , so long as they did no harm. That too is now

MN law.

* I am an activist to get rid of the federal income tax and the IRS and

replace both with a national retail sales tax.

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* And there are other cases where I am an activist for positive change.

Positive change - whether major or minor - usually starts with some one or

some people who believe that the current situation can be improved upon.

History is replete with the people who respond, " The current situation is

just fine; if you're not satisfied with it, YOU have got a problem. "

<< Because as one of the list owners here (Dayu is the

other list owner) what happens is that it appears you

are trying to more or less control the list with your

own considerations. >>

(1) I'd change the word " control " to " enhance " .

(2) Other people, not me, came up with " netiquette " .

<< I do understand, however, if you

do this with every list you are on, then my suggestion

is that you start your own list and run it as you

would like that list to be run. >>

On many of the other lists that I'm on, and for sure the one that I manage,

netiquette is the norm.

<< If Dayu would like to say anything in regards to

this, please do so. I'm not into creating a situation

where people feel uncomfortable to communicate. Just

recently this list has grown very quickly and I would

like to have it active and cheerful and a very

welcoming type of list. >>

So you feel that if people were encouraged to show each other courtesy and

respect that this would inhibit " active and cheerful " ? That has not been my

experience on other lists.

<< As far as netiquette goes I have found everyone

very friendly, helpful, inquisitive and honorable of

this list. >>

I agree. It's also the case that MANY people are relatively new to computer

forums and nobody has ever explained quoting etiquette to them. A large part

of my previous message was explanation.

<< If you are having problems with how people

communicate - this might be a good place to start on

the EFT. >>

As I wrote above, throughout history MANY people have told people who were

trying to improve a situation, " If you're not satisfied with the way things

are, YOU have a problem " . They don't " own the problem " per se; they just have

a different VIEWPOINT -- that there is room for improvement.

<< I do not wish to squash your intentions and

I do understand them, however, you must also

understand the effects created by your originating

this e-mail. >>

You may wish to address this unfounded fear with EFT.

<< I would be much more interested in how you learn

EFT and such and how you are helping yourself and

others in life than in " netiquette " of this list. >>

Yes, I realize this is a side trip and not the main event. It is NOT my

intent to persistently lobby for netiquette on this list. I WOULD however be

interested to hear feedback from other list members on this issue.

Dayu wrote: << I, too, have read many of the books you alluded to and it

sounds like we have a lot in common. I welcome your future participation,

too. It's the traditional left/right brained difference, and as I am a

mixed dominant, I can understand both very easily. >>

That's interesting. I brush my teeth and write with my left hand. I play

tennis, throw a ball, etc. with my right hand. So it sounds like our brain

" wiring " is similar too.

I surely realize that I do not own this list. As a list MEMBER I've simply

made a suggestion and tried to show why I think that suggestion has merit.

Rich Putman in MN USA

<A HREF= " http://www.homestead.com/EarnSave/ChoiceAB.html " >Choices you don't

realize you have.</A>

[Guest guest]

> Yes, I realize this is a side trip and not the main event. It is NOT

my intent to persistently lobby for netiquette on this list. I WOULD

however be interested to hear feedback from other list members on this

issue.

>

I am happy to spend a minute cleaning up a lengthy quotation in order

to make it easier for 300-400 people to read my post. I would prefer

others do the same for me.

Namaste,

Sally