Re: A childbirth problem.....

[Guest guest]

I do not know the actual statistics, but a very quick thought: anything

overgeneralized (ALL or NEVER) is INCREDIBLY likely to be untrue.

A childbirth problem.....

> Since Lin and I have no children, I honestly don't know the answer to this

> one.

>

> But, do ALL dwarf females give birth via caesarean or can they/do they,

> give birth naturally?

>

> This question or assumption came up in discussion and I found myself

> having to say " I don't know. "

>

> Anyone wishing to give this sex education to me, at this grand old age,

> would be appreciated.

>

> Fred

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know about other types of dwarfism, but as far as I'm aware

ALL achon women must have a caesarian because the pelvis is too small

to allow the baby's head to pass through.

But upon thinking about it, I would GUESS that say, a pituitary dwarf

would be OK if the baby was on the smaller side, but that's only a

guess....

I would imagine that during scans and the like, a qualified

obstetrician could gauge the size of the pelvis in relation to the

baby's head - but it would probably be deemed safer to section.

Just a thought

Caela

>

> Since Lin and I have no children, I honestly don't know the answer

to this one.

>

> But, do ALL dwarf females give birth via caesarean or can they/do

they, give birth naturally?

>

> This question or assumption came up in discussion and I found myself

having to say " I don't know. "

>

> Anyone wishing to give this sex education to me, at this grand old

age, would be appreciated.

>

> Fred

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have always wondered how those " other women " faired without having a

C-section....

We're their many more " fatalities " associated with the natural birth???

Carole

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[Guest guest]

Think about it folks. I know caesarians have been with us since the

time of ancient Rome (hence the name: Caesar = king; the term actually

means " kingly birth " ), but most societies weren't as advanced as Rome.

However, dwarfs have been with us as long as humans have existed (we

didn't just arrive from Middle Earth 100 years ago), so obviously

dwarf women were giving birth naturally for far longer than they were

caesarians.

Bill

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 11:57 AM, and Caela <caela@...> wrote:

> I don't know about other types of dwarfism, but as far as I'm aware

> ALL achon women must have a caesarian because the pelvis is too small

> to allow the baby's head to pass through.

>

> But upon thinking about it, I would GUESS that say, a pituitary dwarf

> would be OK if the baby was on the smaller side, but that's only a

> guess....

>

> I would imagine that during scans and the like, a qualified

> obstetrician could gauge the size of the pelvis in relation to the

> baby's head - but it would probably be deemed safer to section.

>

> Just a thought

> Caela

[Guest guest]

True Bill,

BUT - also in the not so distant past, and back, many women died

during childbirth - some through sheer exhaustion - trying to push a

baby's head through a gap too small (cephalo-pelvic

disproportion)..... Of course there were other causes like infection

and haemorrhage, and a few or some of those children probably survived

and went on to have children themselves.

And also, some forms of dwarfism are de-novo mutations. In these

cases, the parents weren't dwarfs.... And then, they wouldn't have

known about carriers and recessive types of dwarfism either...

actually, those parents would have been AH as well...

We will never know all that happened, especially in the cases where a

man's first wife died during childbirth of the first child, the child

also died, and the man went on to marry again, and to have children

with the second wife. I wonder, in those cases, how many of those

" first " wives would have been " remembered " and recorded? Did they

recognise prenatal death even in late pregnancy as they do now? (As a

birth and a death after 21 weeks or whatever it is now)?

Very interesting topic!

Caela

>

> Think about it folks. I know caesarians have been with us since the

> time of ancient Rome (hence the name: Caesar = king; the term actually

> means " kingly birth " ), but most societies weren't as advanced as Rome.

> However, dwarfs have been with us as long as humans have existed (we

> didn't just arrive from Middle Earth 100 years ago), so obviously

> dwarf women were giving birth naturally for far longer than they were

> caesarians.

>

> Bill

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not suggesting that it wasn't a difficult proposition. In fact,

I'm sure many, many women and infants died in childbirth before the

advent of modern medicine. And I'm sure the survival rate is far

higher today than in the past. But, I am responding to the suggesting

that dwarf women ALWAYS had C-sections, and NEVER had natural child

birth. In fact, I've met women in LPA who had children naturally.

Not many, but it happens. I'm also aware of a family from Ethiopia,

in which the mother has pseudachondroplasia, and give birth to three

sons with the condition.

Also (being an anthropology minor, this interests me), with every

genetic recessive disorder (like diastrophic dysplasia) there had to

be, at some point, a female homozygous carrier (a dwarf) that gave

birth, or the disorder ceases to exist.

Bill

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 3:07 PM, and Caela <caela@...> wrote:

> True Bill,

> BUT - also in the not so distant past, and back, many women died

> during childbirth - some through sheer exhaustion - trying to push a

> baby's head through a gap too small (cephalo-pelvic

> disproportion)..... Of course there were other causes like infection

> and haemorrhage, and a few or some of those children probably survived

> and went on to have children themselves.

>

> And also, some forms of dwarfism are de-novo mutations. In these

> cases, the parents weren't dwarfs.... And then, they wouldn't have

> known about carriers and recessive types of dwarfism either...

> actually, those parents would have been AH as well...

>

> We will never know all that happened, especially in the cases where a

> man's first wife died during childbirth of the first child, the child

> also died, and the man went on to marry again, and to have children

> with the second wife. I wonder, in those cases, how many of those

> " first " wives would have been " remembered " and recorded? Did they

> recognise prenatal death even in late pregnancy as they do now? (As a

> birth and a death after 21 weeks or whatever it is now)?

>

> Very interesting topic!

> Caela

[Guest guest]

> Also (being an anthropology minor, this interests me), with every

> genetic recessive disorder (like diastrophic dysplasia) there had to

> be, at some point, a female homozygous carrier (a dwarf) that gave

> birth, or the disorder ceases to exist.

I'm not so sure about that, Bill. Wouldn't the carrier siblings and cousins

be sufficient?

[Guest guest]

After the first one, yes, but at some point, there had to be an

original dwarf female with the condition (remember, we're talking

about a recessive disorder -- takes two to tango).

Realistically speaking, I don't think dwarf women (even beyond the

original) would not consider marrying and having children throughout

history.

Bill

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 6:23 PM, <keppie@...> wrote:

>

> I'm not so sure about that, Bill. Wouldn't the carrier siblings and cousins

> be sufficient?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

It's an interesting topic. Bill, if a pseudo had natural child birth, then she

must have been on the taller end with wider hips.  I'm kind of bummed because

when I have a baby, I'm sure the delivery day will be chosen and I won't get to

experience contractions & labor.  I've decided already to pass on an epidural,

I've known too many LP's who have to get poked many times and even then it

doesn't take.  My mom didn't have one, she was put under and I was fine so I'll

do the same.

 

I can't imagine hardly any LP's surving natural childbirth during the early

times.  Even when they had C-sections, I bet infections were rampant because

they were not away or bacteria and such.

 

-

> I don't know about other types of dwarfism, but as far as I'm aware

> ALL achon women must have a caesarian because the pelvis is too small

> to allow the baby's head to pass through.

>

> But upon thinking about it, I would GUESS that say, a pituitary dwarf

> would be OK if the baby was on the smaller side, but that's only a

> guess....

>

> I would imagine that during scans and the like, a qualified

> obstetrician could gauge the size of the pelvis in relation to the

> baby's head - but it would probably be deemed safer to section.

>

> Just a thought

> Caela

[Guest guest]

Bill, I'm not following. Couldn't it have arisen from a spontaneous

mutation in 2 AH parents that both carried the recessive gene?

Wouldn't this still offer a 25% chance of having a baby with the trait?

Through spontaneous mutations it seems like dwarfs could have existed

without dwarf mothers existing. I am not sure why the existence of

dwarf babies somehow logically entails the existence of dwarf mothers?

Couldn't all females always died during childbirth and the trait

still continue through spontaneous mutations and such? I'm not saying

this happened (I have no evidence either way), but isn't it logically

possible?

>

> >

> > I'm not so sure about that, Bill. Wouldn't the carrier siblings

and cousins

> > be sufficient?

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Carole,

I would have thought so..... conditions like cephalo-pelvic

disproportion are found in lots of different women, not just LP's. I

have a cousin who has it and had to have both her children by

caeserian, and also my best friend who has had 4 caeserians. Another

friend of mine has had 5 caeserians for the same reason! And they are

all AH.

I would also wonder about the anaesthetics used all those years ago...

I wonder how many women died from overdose of ether (or whatever they

used) or reactions to it?

Modern medicine certainly has a place - and I'm sure many women are

really only alive and have more then one child because of it.. the

three women I mentioned earlier, for certain, are. All of them would

have died from exhaustion trying to birth their fist child - who would

also have died from the stress of the birth.

But like I said in an earlier post, I'm pretty sure achon women NEED

caesers, whereas different dwarfism types almost certainly have

different shaped bones, bodies, or whatever. Guess it's like comparing

apples and oranges - both fruit but very different make-ups! The

other problem for achon women, especially if they are carrying achon

babies, is that the achon baby has a large head, so besides having a

small pelvis, the large head makes it doubly hard. Some doctors also

recommend caesers for (AH) Mums of achon babes because of that, and

also because of the cervical issues (possible compression) in the babe.

And as for where the autosomal recessive conditions like DD came from

- surely, it could be possible for a de-novo mutation to happen in an

AH person to happen making them a carrier. And if it happened to one

person, who is to say it didn't happen to more than one? You wouldn't

see or know that the carrier carried the gene either as it is

overshadowed by the other more dominant gene. The only difference

between that and say achon, is that because achon is autosomal

dominant (only need one copy of the gene to show the condition) you

would see it more frequently. This would also explain why

achondroplasia is a more common type of dwarfism seen in the general

population.

Just my thoughts and opinions of course - I'm open to correction

Caela

-- In dwarfism , cmhla@... wrote:

>

> I have always wondered how those " other women " faired without having a

> C-section....

> We're their many more " fatalities " associated with the natural birth???

>

[Guest guest]

Joe, that is certainly a possibility. But, using diastrophic

dysplasia as an example (since that's what I'm most familiar with),

indications are that even though it is a recessive gene, it is a

multiple allele recessive gene, so the likelihood that two AH people,

male and female, would both have the same combination of mutations

that would allow them to be carriers (and then meet and mate) is

almost off the charts.

The higher probability is that one person had the mutation, probably

female (because females in a neolithic culture would have had a higher

chance of survival) who then had offspring who were carriers. A few

generations later (or perhaps just one) the carriers had children and

DD spread.

There's some village in Finland where DD was traced as a possible

original source, and I think the relationship was traced through

mitochondrial DNA, which is passed on by the mother. It's an

interesting study. If I can find it again, I'll post the link.

To be clear, dominant dwarfism can occur in any AH at any time, since

it is a point mutation. But even that does not suggest that ALL achon

dwarf women can give birth only by C-section. If fact, I'm sure that

there are recorded incidences of achon women giving natural birth to

achon children. And I'm also sure it was extremely difficult and

dangerous. Dr. Hoover-Fong at s Hopkins would be a good person to

ask.

Bill

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Joe <joseph.stramondo@...> wrote:

> Bill, I'm not following. Couldn't it have arisen from a spontaneous

> mutation in 2 AH parents that both carried the recessive gene?

> Wouldn't this still offer a 25% chance of having a baby with the trait?

>

> Through spontaneous mutations it seems like dwarfs could have existed

> without dwarf mothers existing. I am not sure why the existence of

> dwarf babies somehow logically entails the existence of dwarf mothers?

> Couldn't all females always died during childbirth and the trait

> still continue through spontaneous mutations and such? I'm not saying

> this happened (I have no evidence either way), but isn't it logically

> possible?

[Guest guest]

Haha Bill,

Obstetrics and genetics are my favourite subjects

I would suggest tho, that with every genetic recessive disorder (like

diastrophic dysplasia) there would have to be a male AND a female

CARRIER, rather than just a homozygous female...... As I said in the

previous post, surely it would be well within the realms of

possibility for several people to have a de novo mutation of a gene

that is recessive - not showing the condition, but able to pass it on?

And just to pick on you a bit further (hehe) - I don't think you can

say ALL dwarf women - simply because there's so many different types,

and different body shapes and sizes within the dwarf community, and

different causes for different types. For example, some are bone

related, some are collagen related, some are hormone related, and

probably a myriad of other causes, and some a mixture of any of them

or all of them even..

I was picking on achon, because having a child with it, I have read up

on it more than other types.... but I don't claim to be an expert by

any means!

Caela

>

> I'm not suggesting that it wasn't a difficult proposition. In fact,

> I'm sure many, many women and infants died in childbirth before the

> advent of modern medicine. And I'm sure the survival rate is far

> higher today than in the past. But, I am responding to the suggesting

> that dwarf women ALWAYS had C-sections, and NEVER had natural child

> birth. In fact, I've met women in LPA who had children naturally.

> Not many, but it happens. I'm also aware of a family from Ethiopia,

> in which the mother has pseudachondroplasia, and give birth to three

> sons with the condition.

>

> Also (being an anthropology minor, this interests me), with every

> genetic recessive disorder (like diastrophic dysplasia) there had to

> be, at some point, a female homozygous carrier (a dwarf) that gave

> birth, or the disorder ceases to exist.

>

[Guest guest]

I know of one Pseudo who had 8 children naturally. She has 4 sons

who were lp, tho she lost one but not at infancy, he was an adult,

and 4 daughters who were ap like their father.

She was a member of the LPA and so was one of her sons or he used to

be(?).

I want to say her name, but to wanting to keep her privacy I will refrain.

~grady