Re: ABA/MFE

[Guest guest]

He has to master answering questions across the board and then you

move on to asking...some generalization should carry over so he begins

asking on his own, but you still teach him to answer them first. Then

you can contrive situations such as having an object in a box and

telling him he has a surprise in it...(What is it); I don't know but I

know someone who does (who knows it?) then having him go to that

person and having them reply " I don't know what is in the box, but I

know You need to use a key (Where is the key) and so forth and so

forth until he gathers all his info and finds out what the prize is in

the box. Super Duper Inc has a lot of other games that specifically

target WH questions, and describing. A lot of people focus on the Wh

questions when the child doesn't even have the describing skills to

formulate decent questions. So you kind of have to target such things

as Think, Say, Describe. They also have flash cards to help with wh

questions. Always start with What, where, who. When Why and How are

abstract and take higher processing skills (which come with time and

mastery of the first three)

[Guest guest]

You might be asking the wrong person, but I did do some work with adult mr/dd population. This was behavioral and focused on daily living skills, things like brushing their teeth. Each living skill was broken down into a gazillion different little steps. I'm not sure whether that would be helpful here, or not. Or if that kind of thinking is helpful for more higher order skills.

Not my forte, more of a conceptual thinker here, definitely not detail-oriented. I can be very logical and practical if I have to be but certainly prefer more creative approaches, probably why Floortime appealed to me, but I couldn't even follow that to the letter.

However, if being detailed is what would have helped her progress, I would have persevered, thank goodness, it did not, although she is very detail driven and for her, would not have been helpful to strengthen that aspect of her personality.

And I think you are finding what I have often thought "The more I know the more I don't know which thing to do first"

But I am left with the same question as you, how do you get a child to ask a question? How do you break that one down?

For us, it was modeling, for instance if she was picking out blocks based on color, I would have hidden one and then asked out loud "Where did the yellow block go?" She had great imitator skills very young, so thinking I am not helping here, so will stop. I am sure all the ABA experts will have lots of ways to break this down.

----- Original Message -----

From: rmaher1969@...

Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 11:16 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: ABA/MFE

,

I just opened a Microsoft Word to draft a curriculum for for this summer. The headline reads: 's needs.....

Then I sat staring at the screen for ten minutes. What in the hell do I do? I am completely lost now.

The problem I'm finding is that the more educated I become on the things I need to do, the more inadequate and paralyzed I feel. Maybe I should sleep on it?

I obviously can't refer to his MFE for help. I suppose I should try to set a baseline to know where to begin. Holy Cow,

----- Original Message -----

From: Cochran

Sent: 5/21/2006 11:08:43 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: ABA/MFE

Wow, now I am feeling like Roxanne did, so many more who are experts on ABA and seems that is the main focus of this group.

----- Original Message -----

From: smdscott141

Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 10:20 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: ABA/MFE

Well said!!!>> > In a message dated 5/21/2006 7:02:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Ladyshrink111@... writes:> > Now knowing what modern ABA is, still have some reservations about it, makes > for a child with very programmed, stilted conversation. I much prefer > Floortime and did a version of that here---constant, when awake, totally > participatory playtime. Just seems more natural to me, but may be a function of where > the child is.> > I think it isn't rocket science either, but you guys are way over my head > with this stuff.> > > > > > School people warned me that my ds would be a "robot" if I did ABA with him. > the thing is, being autistic is what causes the stilted speech. Trying to > do new things that do not come naturally causes "robotic" looking behaviors. > And in addition, having usable speech was, at the time, much preferrable to > nothing, which is what we had. His echolalia is "robotic" in nature but it > was before we started ABA as well - it is the nature of the beast, IMO. And > after a year in the school program, he had not progressed at all. How natural > looking was he as he wandered around the room not participating in anything > with anyone? lol. So I didn't let that stop me. Further, any good ABA > program will emphasize generalization. And you also have to have people who will > not do the same things, the same way, the same order each time. Mix it up. > Make it interesting. Once my ds would get something, we would mix it up and > make it challenging but attainable. Problem would arise when people just > went through the motions - like one teacher would ask him the same questions, > right down the list. And he had the answers memorized so much so that he > answered them all in one big word. This prompted the school to say that ABA was > "too easy" for him and he was bored. duh. lol. But I think as you go, you > think of ideas and ways to make it suit the child - going faster and slower > as necessary. Some kids really need a lot of repetition, others need a lot > of variety. Some need both. We do different things differently with my > friend than I had done with my ds. But it is what suits him better. > > > Roxanna ô¿ö> Autism Happens > > > Roxanna ô¿ö> Autism Happens>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/22/2006 10:19:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ladyshrink111@... writes:

Just some basic logical questions about ABA.

How long does the typical child remain in ABA?

As long as it takes to achieve the desired result. We did an "official" program for 3 years using the curriculum guide in Behavioral Interventions plus several other books to cover other areas. So altogether he was in a pull out 1-1 program for 3 years.

We started moving our son into more regular classes/situations after that (and also during that time to generalize all skills.) Now he gets pulled out for some things but most of his supports are in class supports. And we address his needs as they arise using whatever will work. I do however like thinking in ABA terms - breaking things down when there is a problem as well as requesting DATA. IEP teams know already that I will request the data to support their conclusions. This is a good habit to learn from ABA.

<< How many hours are recommended?>>

40 hours per week is kind of "standard" recommended but I really think it depends upon the child's needs. Some kids do fine with less and others need 40 hours without fail. We did less with my ds. I think because he is also gifted, we were able to take shortcuts in some ways with him - he learns fast and his biggest problem was/is generalizing. So it took little time to teach concepts but lots of time to make those concepts mean something to him. I would tell people to do what you can do, what works for you, what works for your child - the thing is to start. And I think once you get going, you might be surprised at ways to incorporate the learrning. Like I gave examples before about bedtime stories being part of our ABA - these are things we do anyway as parents. My ds's bedtime story took a little longer and was a little more structured and there was learning happening as well. More so than a "typical" bedtime story. I had a plan. lol. I think that is the best part of ABA for me was giving me a direction and a focus.

<<How much does the recommended amount of ABA cost?>>

A lot!

You will probably pay your tutors $8 - $12 per hour to work with your child. You can do it yourself also to save money there. Consulting fees are pricey. Years ago when I did ABA with my son, we paid $145/hour for consultation. Training will cost as well because you need to have the consultant train you and your tutors, if they do not know anything about ABA yet.

My friend who is using woodall was trained by the people from woodall in how to do ABA. They also had his teacher there as well. We never had training for the tutors. I would guess the mom trained the other tutors but I already knew ABA basics so I was good to go. I think I have learned more on the learning curve - as I'm working with my little friend. But at any rate, that saved her money going this route. So the cost to them is cost per hour for tutors and some supplies. Most supplies we use are things most kids have already - books, toys, etc. So you don't have to go out and buy a lot of stuff.

<< What is the success rate of ABA?>>

I wish they did a compilation of kids who have done ABA and how successful it was for them. I would like to see that. Or perhaps someone did? I do know in the original studies, all the kids improved. Now, they all did not become "cured" - but they improved skills. I think a lot depends upon the severity of problems and what kind of problems are present as to how well the child ultimately does.

<< Is is standard practice to combine ABA and medication?>>

Geez, I did just read on a site posted recently that some guy was saying ABA and meds are the secret to success with autism. I don't agree. We do use medication here when necessary but I don't think it is automatically ok to link the two as if there is no success without meds. My ds did all his ABA without meds at all. And he did fine. The little guy I work with now does not take meds and we are progressing without them. So I think meds is a second issue on it's own for parents to decide and deal with. And as a parent - nothing is standard practice unless you say it is, IMO.

<< I did read the original study and the percentages of success with ABA, but then also read that they were never able to replicate the success rate of the original study? Any comments?>>

I think there have been successful replications - or perhaps I'm mistaken. I honestly do not keep up with the latest since my ds stopped ABA but am just not getting back into it because I'm working now as a tutor for my friend. I think personal experience has made me a believer more than any studies do/would. When we first read about ABA and how it worked, we were excited because it made sense. We had one of the school tutors do a sort of "mini ABA" and he learned so well vs. learning nothing the way the school was doing it before. So we were ready to go and of course, documentation showed he was making great gains. I think anything people do, they should keep data and make sure it is working for their child. If not, figure out if it's the program not working, the people implementing the program or your child cannot learn that way.

<< I hope my questions are taken in the spirit they were intended. My husband affectionately (I think) calls me the question lady>>

Of course they are! Asking is what helps people learn and I don't mind questions.

Roxanna ô¿öAutism Happens

[Guest guest]

Roxanne - FANTASTIC idea!! Chris

>From: kneeleee@...

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: [ ] Re: ABA/MFE

>Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 23:40:18 EDT

>

>

>In a message dated 5/21/2006 11:16:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>rmaher1969@... writes:

>

>I just opened a Microsoft Word to draft a curriculum for for this

>summer. The headline reads: 's needs.....

>

>Then I sat staring at the screen for ten minutes. What in the hell do I

>do?

> I am completely lost now.

>

>The problem I'm finding is that the more educated I become on the things I

>need to do, the more inadequate and paralyzed I feel. Maybe I should

>sleep on

>it?

>I obviously can't refer to his MFE for help. I suppose I should try to

>set

>a baseline to know where to begin. Holy Cow,

>

>

>

>This is not so bad. I love starting with a clean slate and I often write

>my

>own kids IEPs when I can. Ok, control freak...sorta. But I hate lame

>goals. So...

>

>My advice is to look on the internet for sites that discuss developmental

>skills, developmental milestones, etc. Look at your child's age and what

>his

>peers are doing in comparison. This gives you a wonderful point of

>reference.

> It is much nicer than trying to comprehend a poor MFE! Print up all the

>developmental information you have and go through it all with a pen,

>circling

>what he needs to work on. This is how I write the Present levels (PLOP).

>All you need to do is organize the information into subsets or sections -

>all

>the expressive language areas here, all fine motor there, etc. This is

>the

>outline for the PLOP.

>

>The goals all come from the PLOP. Look at your sections and summarize the

>main needs - these are goals. Then you can outline objectives to reach

>the

>goals from there. Done. Present to TEAM. <G>

>

>They love it when I show up with stapled copies for everyone. lol. Ok,

>they only pretend to love it. lol.

>

>Anyway, there is your baseline and it becomes easier as you assemble it.

>Piece by piece. You can do it!

>

>

>Roxanna ô¿ô

>Don't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive.

>

[Guest guest]

One way that was successful for me in getting my son to start to ask

spontaneous questions was of course to set up the situation.

The way I did it was to put something I knew my son would love in a

brown paper bag ( you could use a semi-transparent bag too, like the

blue grocery bags that come from a lot of grocery stores) or any

other kind of contraption that should let your child know you have

something, we've even put things under our shirt so he could see the

outline. With a highly preferred toy in a bag we would look inside

and act very interest, overly animated, without letting my son see

what was in it. We would try to build up a little anticipation,

then we would model, " what is it? " . As soon as we received any kind

of response from him we'd let him take out what was in the bag.

Then in no time at all he was asking. At this point you could start

gradually moving to less preferred items in the bag so he learns to

be inquisitive about many things. Put items in there you know he

won't know like maybe a hand mixer, etc. and you can model the

answer, " I don't know " when they ask what is it. You can turn it

into a game where you say, " I don't know, but daddy knows " and get

them to go ask daddy or someone else available.

Just one way, I am sure others can give some good examples.

> > >

> > >

> > > In a message dated 5/21/2006 7:02:34 PM Eastern Standard

Time,

> > > Ladyshrink111@ writes:

> > >

> > > Now knowing what modern ABA is, still have some reservations

> > about it, makes

> > > for a child with very programmed, stilted conversation. I

much

> > prefer

> > > Floortime and did a version of that here---constant, when

> awake,

> > totally

> > > participatory playtime. Just seems more natural to me, but

may

> be

> > a function of where

> > > the child is.

> > >

> > > I think it isn't rocket science either, but you guys are way

> over

> > my head

> > > with this stuff.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > School people warned me that my ds would be a " robot " if I did

> ABA

> > with him.

> > > the thing is, being autistic is what causes the stilted

> speech.

> > Trying to

> > > do new things that do not come naturally causes " robotic "

> looking

> > behaviors.

> > > And in addition, having usable speech was, at the time, much

> > preferrable to

> > > nothing, which is what we had. His echolalia is " robotic " in

> > nature but it

> > > was before we started ABA as well - it is the nature of the

> > beast, IMO. And

> > > after a year in the school program, he had not progressed at

> > all. How natural

> > > looking was he as he wandered around the room not

participating

> > in anything

> > > with anyone? lol. So I didn't let that stop me. Further,

any

> > good ABA

> > > program will emphasize generalization. And you also have to

> have

> > people who will

> > > not do the same things, the same way, the same order each

> time.

> > Mix it up.

> > > Make it interesting. Once my ds would get something, we

would

> > mix it up and

> > > make it challenging but attainable. Problem would arise when

> > people just

> > > went through the motions - like one teacher would ask him the

> > same questions,

> > > right down the list. And he had the answers memorized so

much

> so

> > that he

> > > answered them all in one big word. This prompted the school

to

> > say that ABA was

> > > " too easy " for him and he was bored. duh. lol. But I think

> as

> > you go, you

> > > think of ideas and ways to make it suit the child - going

> faster

> > and slower

> > > as necessary. Some kids really need a lot of repetition,

> others

> > need a lot

> > > of variety. Some need both. We do different things

> differently

> > with my

> > > friend than I had done with my ds. But it is what suits him

> > better.

> > >

> > >

> > > Roxanna ô¿ö

> > > Autism Happens

> > >

> > >

> > > Roxanna ô¿ö

> > > Autism Happens

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > *note:

> > When Adding to your email address book, don't forget to

> include the s in groups. Here is the complete address:

>

> > ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

> > is a networking and support group

> > of " Parent to Parent for Autism " .

> > Website: http://hometown.aol.com/parentschat/homepage.html

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Oops...the whole great minds thing...I just posted something

similiar...oh, well, better too much info than not enough I

guess...great post!

>

> He has to master answering questions across the board and then you

> move on to asking...some generalization should carry over so he

begins

> asking on his own, but you still teach him to answer them first.

Then

> you can contrive situations such as having an object in a box and

> telling him he has a surprise in it...(What is it); I don't know

but I

> know someone who does (who knows it?) then having him go to that

> person and having them reply " I don't know what is in the box, but

I

> know You need to use a key (Where is the key) and so forth and so

> forth until he gathers all his info and finds out what the prize

is in

> the box. Super Duper Inc has a lot of other games that

specifically

> target WH questions, and describing. A lot of people focus on the

Wh

> questions when the child doesn't even have the describing skills

to

> formulate decent questions. So you kind of have to target such

things

> as Think, Say, Describe. They also have flash cards to help with

wh

> questions. Always start with What, where, who. When Why and How

are

> abstract and take higher processing skills (which come with time

and

> mastery of the first three)

>

[Guest guest]

Just some basic logical questions about ABA.

How long does the typical child remain in ABA?

How many hours are recommended?

How much does the recommended amount of ABA cost?

What is the success rate of ABA?

Is is standard practice to combine ABA and medication?

I did read the original study and the percentages of success with ABA, but then also read that they were never able to replicate the success rate of the original study? Any comments?

I hope my questions are taken in the spirit they were intended. My husband affectionately (I think) calls me the question lady. I have read pieces of things about ABA, but have never had the opportunity to ask these questions of so many who are knowledgeable about ABA.

Thanks for all the information, any ABA recommendations for motivation?

[Guest guest]

Here's what I've found

>

> Just some basic logical questions about ABA.

>

> How long does the typical child remain in ABA?

The early EIBI aspect two to three years. My feeling is once people

learn how to do ABA it is a life long thing, but the truely

intensive part is 2-3 yrs.

>

> How many hours are recommended?

25-40 hrs./wk is what the National Research Council recommends and

is derrived from Lovaas and other studies showing at what point you

get return on investment

>

> How much does the recommended amount of ABA cost?

The lowest I've seen tutors for in the greater Cleveland area is

$10/hr. and as high as $18/hr, but the $18/hr. person didn't last

long. She wasn't worth it. As far as a consultant, $100-$115/hr.

seems to be the going rate around here and every other week for a

two or three hour meeting seems to be the norm in the first year.

>

> What is the success rate of ABA?

Lovaas' seminal work as well as a recent ('05) replication study

cite approximately 50%; but that seems a little high compared to

area clinical programs. I guess it all depends on what you mean by

success too. The 50% meaning inclusion in regular ed. without

support/indestiguishable from same age peers. Other studies that

refer to eradication of behavioral excesses and increases in

behavioral deficits cite a 90% success rate, but that is on

individual behaviors and showing statistically significant gains.

>

> Is is standard practice to combine ABA and medication?

Standard practice for ABA in every publication I've seen makes no

connection between in an ABA. I do not see any correlation, nor do

I see any conflict. Any good ABAist would suggest keeping good data

so you can try to tease out what is causing what.

>

> I did read the original study and the percentages of success with

ABA, but then also read that they were never able to replicate the

success rate of the original study? Any comments?

One of the big reasons the original studies were so successful if

you want to call it that is because the researchers had a lot of

access to the population because a lot of them were

institutionalized. Now we, as a society, don't do that (at least

not to the same extent). That made it a lot harder to follow the

same protocol, number of kids, number of hours, years, etc., etc.

Once study that just came out was able to replicate the study

(Lovaas and his roughly 50%) and was able to get the same results

(without aversives). The major problem is keeping people in the

program long enough and intensive enough to replicate the originals.

>

> I hope my questions are taken in the spirit they were intended. My

husband affectionately (I think) calls me the question lady. I have

read pieces of things about ABA, but have never had the opportunity

to ask these questions of so many who are knowledgeable about ABA.

>

> Thanks for all the information, any ABA recommendations for

motivation?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> *note:

> When Adding to your email address book, don't forget to

include the s in groups. Here is the complete address:

> ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

> is a networking and support group

> of " Parent to Parent for Autism " .

> Website: http://hometown.aol.com/parentschat/homepage.html

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

One caveat to the how many hours question...

Many have talked the optimal 40 hrs. of DTT, but a lot of Lovaas'

work talked of using every waking hour in language rich, etc.,

almost a PRT (Pivitol Response Training) type environment.

The argument would be our children have lost out on so much

already and by definition ASD is a developmental DELAY meaning they

have to chase development. No rest for the wicked, at least in my

case.

>

> Just some basic logical questions about ABA.

>

> How long does the typical child remain in ABA?

>

> How many hours are recommended?

>

> How much does the recommended amount of ABA cost?

>

> What is the success rate of ABA?

>

> Is is standard practice to combine ABA and medication?

>

> I did read the original study and the percentages of success with

ABA, but then also read that they were never able to replicate the

success rate of the original study? Any comments?

>

> I hope my questions are taken in the spirit they were intended. My

husband affectionately (I think) calls me the question lady. I have

read pieces of things about ABA, but have never had the opportunity

to ask these questions of so many who are knowledgeable about ABA.

>

> Thanks for all the information, any ABA recommendations for

motivation?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> *note:

> When Adding to your email address book, don't forget to

include the s in groups. Here is the complete address:

> ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

> is a networking and support group

> of " Parent to Parent for Autism " .

> Website: http://hometown.aol.com/parentschat/homepage.html

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Shane and Roxanne for your detailed answers to my many questions. Certainly not inexpensive, I can see why so many mothers who opt for ABA would have to work, at a minimum 1600 a week would put a dent in most budgets, or you would have to learn to do it yourself, as I said, with young children, I think is the better way to go.

No takers on how you use ABA to jump start motivation? I do get how you would increase more concrete skills with ABA, but how does one instill motivation, a more intrinisic quality? Is this beyond the scope of ABA?

TIA,

----- Original Message -----

From: smdscott141

Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 12:04 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: ABA/MFE

One caveat to the how many hours question...Many have talked the optimal 40 hrs. of DTT, but a lot of Lovaas' work talked of using every waking hour in language rich, etc., almost a PRT (Pivitol Response Training) type environment. The argument would be our children have lost out on so much already and by definition ASD is a developmental DELAY meaning they have to chase development. No rest for the wicked, at least in my case.>> Just some basic logical questions about ABA.> > How long does the typical child remain in ABA?> > How many hours are recommended?> > How much does the recommended amount of ABA cost?> > What is the success rate of ABA?> > Is is standard practice to combine ABA and medication?> > I did read the original study and the percentages of success with ABA, but then also read that they were never able to replicate the success rate of the original study? Any comments?> > I hope my questions are taken in the spirit they were intended. My husband affectionately (I think) calls me the question lady. I have read pieces of things about ABA, but have never had the opportunity to ask these questions of so many who are knowledgeable about ABA.> > Thanks for all the information, any ABA recommendations for motivation? > > > > > > > > *note:> When Adding to your email address book, don't forget to include the s in groups. Here is the complete address: > ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~> is a networking and support group> of "Parent to Parent for Autism".> Website: http://hometown.aol.com/parentschat/homepage.html > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I'll take the motivation question, but I need to do some checking

first (don't like to speak too heavily on things I only have a

cursory explanation for). We're still working on prerequisites with

my son.

My wife and I both work full time and could do it no other

way. We cannot even affort everything now and have been very lucky

with help from unexpected places and people. We've been blessed.

I do not think motivation is beyond ABA as ABA is built on

learning principles. If motivation can be learned then ABA can do

it. The other question would be is the team up to it. I'll do some

research and get back to you.

Shane

> >

> > Just some basic logical questions about ABA.

> >

> > How long does the typical child remain in ABA?

> >

> > How many hours are recommended?

> >

> > How much does the recommended amount of ABA cost?

> >

> > What is the success rate of ABA?

> >

> > Is is standard practice to combine ABA and medication?

> >

> > I did read the original study and the percentages of success

with

> ABA, but then also read that they were never able to replicate

the

> success rate of the original study? Any comments?

> >

> > I hope my questions are taken in the spirit they were

intended. My

> husband affectionately (I think) calls me the question lady. I

have

> read pieces of things about ABA, but have never had the

opportunity

> to ask these questions of so many who are knowledgeable about

ABA.

> >

> > Thanks for all the information, any ABA recommendations for

> motivation?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > *note:

> > When Adding to your email address book, don't forget

to

> include the s in groups. Here is the complete address:

>

> > ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

> > is a networking and support group

> > of " Parent to Parent for Autism " .

> > Website: http://hometown.aol.com/parentschat/homepage.html

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> >

> > How many hours are recommended?

>25-40 hrs./wk is what the National Research Council recommends and

>is derrived from Lovaas and other studies showing at what point you

>get return on investment

What research I've found is the 25 hours/week # (at least).

> >

> > What is the success rate of ABA?

>Lovaas' seminal work as well as a recent ('05) replication study

>cite approximately 50%; but that seems a little high compared to

>area clinical programs. I guess it all depends on what you mean by

>success too. The 50% meaning inclusion in regular ed. without

>support/indestiguishable from same age peers. Other studies that

>refer to eradication of behavioral excesses and increases in

>behavioral deficits cite a 90% success rate, but that is on

>individual behaviors and showing statistically significant gains.

Time's piece on autism visits Alpine Center in NJ, Brigit 's school.

(Brigit is of " Let Me Hear Your Voice " fame.) 20 odd percent of

those students eventually go to the regular ed classroom with an aide.

>One of the big reasons the original studies were so successful if

>you want to call it that is because the researchers had a lot of

>access to the population because a lot of them were

>institutionalized.

I don't think Lovaas's original group of children were institutionalized.

Yes, he did work with institutionalized children, but the 9 (?) students in

the original study lived at home. (from what I remember)

Marotta

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Shane, I appreciate your time and consideration.

What we have done for motivation; Praise, may be too much for anything that approximates initiative or motivation (shaping). She models this praise and I have caught her telling adults they did a good job with a prayer they gave in church, etc, also, will try to motivate other kids who are trying to do something by telling them to be patient they will get it. So, pretty clear the praise and premotivation have been internalized.

She is highly motivated for learning when she wants to (aren't we all?), maybe you read my example of her learning conversational French in 1/2 hour from some DVD's. But, like 's , if it is pedantic, forget it. And so much of school is like that, or will be for her, I'm afraid, especially. Her preschool's response to her accelerated learning was to give her more work, but they would complain she soon learned to manipulate the situation and "play dumb".

Well, if being accelerated just means more work, we thought that was an expected response from pretty much any kid who could learn cause/effect and we put an end to the extra work. They didn't ask us if this would be acceptable, prior to their starting the extra work, hoping this is not a trend. Do they just think because the kids are in their school they can do what they want without clearing it with the parents? We actually chose that preschool because it was developmentally and socially based, not academic. I mean, why constantly play to a child's strength? The developmental/social aspect was helpful for her and did allow her to grow in these areas.

Anyway, not sure any of the above is helpful, but I will await your research and information.

Thanks in advance,

----- Original Message -----

From: smdscott141

Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 12:30 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: ABA/MFE

I'll take the motivation question, but I need to do some checking first (don't like to speak too heavily on things I only have a cursory explanation for). We're still working on prerequisites with my son. My wife and I both work full time and could do it no other way. We cannot even affort everything now and have been very lucky with help from unexpected places and people. We've been blessed. I do not think motivation is beyond ABA as ABA is built on learning principles. If motivation can be learned then ABA can do it. The other question would be is the team up to it. I'll do some research and get back to you.Shane> >> > Just some basic logical questions about ABA.> > > > How long does the typical child remain in ABA?> > > > How many hours are recommended?> > > > How much does the recommended amount of ABA cost?> > > > What is the success rate of ABA?> > > > Is is standard practice to combine ABA and medication?> > > > I did read the original study and the percentages of success with > ABA, but then also read that they were never able to replicate the > success rate of the original study? Any comments?> > > > I hope my questions are taken in the spirit they were intended. My > husband affectionately (I think) calls me the question lady. I have > read pieces of things about ABA, but have never had the opportunity > to ask these questions of so many who are knowledgeable about ABA.> > > > Thanks for all the information, any ABA recommendations for > motivation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *note:> > When Adding to your email address book, don't forget to > include the s in groups. Here is the complete address: > > > ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~> > is a networking and support group> > of "Parent to Parent for Autism".> > Website: http://hometown.aol.com/parentschat/homepage.html > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Here are some of my thoughts.

Q. How long does the typical child remain in ABA?

A. Probably 2 to 3 years (depending on the age and skill level of the

child when starting)

Q. How many hours are recommended?

A. Again, it depends on the age and skill level. Most sources

recommend 25 to 40 hours per week. Of course, for a school-age

child, you would have to be getting some ABA in the school

environment to achieve these kinds of hours. I think the hours per

week recommendation is a recommendation for DTT hours (i.e., one-on-

one instruction). Behavior strategies can be used with children 24/7.

Q. How much does the recommended amount of ABA cost?

A. The cost depends on the number of hours of one-on-one instruction

and the consultant hours. Consultants in the area generally run

between $80.00/hour to $150.00/hour. Tutors, in my experience, run

between $8.00/hour to $12.00/hour. Materials also can be costly

(e.g., computer ink/toner, card stock, paper, books, etc.).

Q. What is the success rate of ABA?

A. This depends on which study you read. I have had tremendous

success (in a short period of time) using ABA.

Q. Is is standard practice to combine ABA and medication?

A. I don't know if it is standard practice; however, I would try a

behavioral approach first before trying medication. Sometimes

medication is absolutely necessary. I believe you could do both.

Q. I did read the original study and the percentages of success with

ABA, but then also read that they were never able to replicate the

success rate of the original study? Any comments?

A. There are many criticisms on the original study. Although the

study has been criticized, most research does show that the method

works. Of course, nothing has been found to cure autism. ABA can

help a child (or adult) make tremendous progress towards independence.

Q.any ABA recommendations for motivation?

A. A good book regarding reinforcers is Incentives for Change:

Motivating People with Autism Spectrum Disorders to Learn and Gain

Independence.

Hope this helps.

Thanks.

Debbie

[Guest guest]

I was generalizing to all the studies of the 60's thru the 80's and

probably did too much generalizing with Lovaas' name but yes you are

right, not all of his studies were with institutionalized children

and in the ME book, if I remember correctly that is one of the

things that was corrected, among others. Like thinking children

were best served by being in an institution and not having the

family involved, etc. I'll have to check for specifics and be a

little more careful how I structure my writing.

Found some of it:

" We chose, therefore, to teach children, WHENEVER POSSIBLE, as

normal parents teach their normal children.

To summaraze and state some implications:

1. The place of intervention was changed from the institution to

teaching in everyday community.

2. The locus of intervention was changed from treatment to teaching.

3. ... "

Sorry for any confusion I might have caused!

Shane

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > > How many hours are recommended?

> >25-40 hrs./wk is what the National Research Council recommends and

> >is derrived from Lovaas and other studies showing at what point

you

> >get return on investment

>

> What research I've found is the 25 hours/week # (at least).

>

> > >

> > > What is the success rate of ABA?

> >Lovaas' seminal work as well as a recent ('05) replication study

> >cite approximately 50%; but that seems a little high compared to

> >area clinical programs. I guess it all depends on what you mean

by

> >success too. The 50% meaning inclusion in regular ed. without

> >support/indestiguishable from same age peers. Other studies that

> >refer to eradication of behavioral excesses and increases in

> >behavioral deficits cite a 90% success rate, but that is on

> >individual behaviors and showing statistically significant gains.

>

> Time's piece on autism visits Alpine Center in NJ, Brigit 's

school.

> (Brigit is of " Let Me Hear Your Voice " fame.) 20 odd

percent of

> those students eventually go to the regular ed classroom with an

aide.

>

>

> >One of the big reasons the original studies were so successful if

> >you want to call it that is because the researchers had a lot of

> >access to the population because a lot of them were

> >institutionalized.

>

> I don't think Lovaas's original group of children were

institutionalized.

> Yes, he did work with institutionalized children, but the 9 (?)

students in

> the original study lived at home. (from what I remember)

>

> Marotta

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/22/2006 8:57:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, SMD@... writes:

One way that was successful for me in getting my son to start to ask spontaneous questions was of course to set up the situation.

We did this also at school for another idea. Reece was instructed to go to the office and ask a question and bring back the answer. You could then have your child go ask the nurse a question or for something, ask the principal something, etc. You could do that at home as well (go ask daddy if he wants to wrestle...etc.)

Roxanna ô¿öAutism Happens

[Guest guest]

Well I started my research (believe me when I say I am multi-

tasking) and found one of my 150+ volumes on autism and related tops

(personal library) has a whole chapter devoted to motivation. I

read some of the books I have cover to cover and some I read only

when a situation warrants it. Since we are still working on some of

the prerequisites and don't want to put the cart before the horse I

haven't/hadn't read that chapter yet. I will read it and boil it

down to what seems useful. (The title to those who are interested

is: " Teaching Individuals with Developmental Delays: Basic

Intervention Techniques " by: O. Ivar Lovaas with contributions from

13 others as was peer-reviewed by the NIMH [National Institute of

Mental Health]). This book is the follow up to the famous ME book.

Actually there is supposed to be a follow up to this book to with

more advanced information but I haven't heard anything about it or

if it's even out yet. (Remember, there are truley no advanced

techniques, to be advanced master the basics!)

I actually have one other book in mind that I haven't even

cracked yet that might lend itself to the topic...I'll pass on it's

info if it pans out.

Shane

> >

> > Just some basic logical questions about ABA.

> >

> > How long does the typical child remain in ABA?

> >

> > How many hours are recommended?

> >

> > How much does the recommended amount of ABA cost?

> >

> > What is the success rate of ABA?

> >

> > Is is standard practice to combine ABA and medication?

> >

> > I did read the original study and the percentages of success

with

> ABA, but then also read that they were never able to replicate

the

> success rate of the original study? Any comments?

> >

> > I hope my questions are taken in the spirit they were

intended. My

> husband affectionately (I think) calls me the question lady. I

have

> read pieces of things about ABA, but have never had the

opportunity

> to ask these questions of so many who are knowledgeable about

ABA.

> >

> > Thanks for all the information, any ABA recommendations for

> motivation?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > *note:

> > When Adding to your email address book, don't forget

to

> include the s in groups. Here is the complete address:

>

> > ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

> > is a networking and support group

> > of " Parent to Parent for Autism " .

> > Website: http://hometown.aol.com/parentschat/homepage.html

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >