Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Hi Lynn, what do you want to know? I think they both have different challenges. but in my experience and I know a lot will not agree with me. but for me, I have to say the knee was by far easier than my hips, the shoulder as I have had so much issues with the tendon, would come in close to a hip. you need so much movement in your shoulder to function properly. I haven't been able to use my right arm for nearly 8 months. and I am just about at the end of the road for patience. I have to wait another month before I am able to do active exercises, at the moment at 8 weeks post tendon repair, I am not doing anything. If I can help you further, you can e-mail me privately or here I don't mind. x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I assume that would be " local with a chaser of happy juice " of some sort? I don't think I want to be present for the experience myself. (Oddly enough, I would have been fine with teh back surgery under local, but that wasn't an opting. There is something about hip surgery that reminds me all too much of disjointing a chicken...). In a message dated 8/15/2009 1:34:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jujulabee@... writes: Local (either spinal or epidural) can be used for both hip and knee replacement. There are benefits to local so you should research and discuss with the OS and anesthesiologist prior to surgery and request your preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 In a message dated 8/15/2009 4:21:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jujulabee@... writes: I also had NO NONE NUNCA desire to be conscious of my surroundings during the operation. I told this to the anesthesiologist and they timed it wonderfully. My last memory was being transferred to the table and then I woke up as they were about to wheel me into the recovery room. I was so unaffected by the anesthesia that I requested a magazine to read while I waited (and waited) for a room to free up so I could be transferred. ha...my lastg pre-op recollection from teh a back surgery was teh surgeon waking me up to tell me he was there & we wer ready to roll..then whhosh, lights out till the recovery room, wher eI woke up asking..what else.. " What time is it? " No problems, no disorientation, no nausea, just a slightly skewed sense of how quickly I could get to my feet and walk out.... judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 In a message dated 8/15/2009 5:02:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cmdavis2002@... writes: After watching a few minutes of the surgery video on line, I think I made a wise decision. Believe me, i'm not looking, and this is despite having witnessed autopsies. I don't WANT to know a whole lot more than I already know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Thanks , I'm wondering: my DR used total anaesthesia for the hip replacement, can local anathetics be used for knee, or still probably totally out? Also do you or anyone know how long these replacements last these days: people used to say " don't have anything done until you can't stand it anymore because it has to be redone in 15 or 20 years " but that's not true anymore is it? Lynn > > Hi Lynn, > > what do you want to know? > > I think they both have different challenges. but in my experience and I know a lot will not agree with me. but for me, I have to say the knee was by far easier than my hips, the shoulder as I have had so much issues with the tendon, would come in close to a hip. you need so much movement in your shoulder to function properly. > I haven't been able to use my right arm for nearly 8 months. and I am just about at the end of the road for patience. I have to wait another month before I am able to do active exercises, at the moment at 8 weeks post tendon repair, I am not doing anything. > > If I can help you further, you can e-mail me privately or here I don't mind. > > x > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Local (either spinal or epidural) can be used for both hip and knee replacement. There are benefits to local so you should research and discuss with the OS and anesthesiologist prior to surgery and request your preference. On Aug 15, 2009, at 10:25 AM, Lynn Badler wrote: > Thanks , > I'm wondering: my DR used total anaesthesia for the hip replacement, > can local anathetics be used for knee, or still probably totally out? > Also do you or anyone know how long these replacements last these > days: people used to say " don't have anything done until you can't > stand it anymore because it has to be redone in 15 or 20 years " but > that's not true anymore is it? > Lynn > > > > > Hi Lynn, > > > > what do you want to know? > > > > I think they both have different challenges. but in my experience > and I know a lot will not agree with me. but for me, I have to say > the knee was by far easier than my hips, the shoulder as I have had > so much issues with the tendon, would come in close to a hip. you > need so much movement in your shoulder to function properly. > > I haven't been able to use my right arm for nearly 8 months. and I > am just about at the end of the road for patience. I have to wait > another month before I am able to do active exercises, at the moment > at 8 weeks post tendon repair, I am not doing anything. > > > > If I can help you further, you can e-mail me privately or here I > don't mind. > > > > x > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I also had NO NONE NUNCA desire to be conscious of my surroundings during the operation. I told this to the anesthesiologist and they timed it wonderfully. My last memory was being transferred to the table and then I woke up as they were about to wheel me into the recovery room. I was so unaffected by the anesthesia that I requested a magazine to read while I waited (and waited) for a room to free up so I could be transferred. On Aug 15, 2009, at 12:53 PM, jarcher107@... wrote: > I assume that would be " local with a chaser of happy juice " of some > sort? > > I don't think I want to be present for the experience myself. (Oddly > enough, I would have been fine with teh back surgery under local, > but that > wasn't an opting. There is something about hip surgery that reminds > me all too > much of disjointing a chicken...). > > > In a message dated 8/15/2009 1:34:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jujulabee@... writes: > > Local (either spinal or epidural) can be used for both hip and knee > replacement. > > There are benefits to local so you should research and discuss with > the OS and anesthesiologist prior to surgery and request your > preference. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 My feelings exactly, I told them I don't care what the hell you do just put me out while you do it. I got a Femoral block and anesthesia. Woke up in Recovery with my legs propped up on the horizontal stair climber thing, they brought me to my room I got the morphine pump put in my hands , turned on the tv , and everything was fine. After watching a few minutes of the surgery video on line, I think I made a wise decision. ________________________________ From: " jujulabee@... " <jujulabee@...> Joint Replacement Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 4:18:38 PM Subject: Re: Re: Lynn- compare hip knee.  I also had NO NONE NUNCA desire to be conscious of my surroundings during the operation. I told this to the anesthesiologist and they timed it wonderfully. My last memory was being transferred to the table and then I woke up as they were about to wheel me into the recovery room. I was so unaffected by the anesthesia that I requested a magazine to read while I waited (and waited) for a room to free up so I could be transferred. On Aug 15, 2009, at 12:53 PM, jarcher107aol (DOT) com wrote: > I assume that would be " local with a chaser of happy juice " of some > sort? > > I don't think I want to be present for the experience myself. (Oddly > enough, I would have been fine with teh back surgery under local, > but that > wasn't an opting. There is something about hip surgery that reminds > me all too > much of disjointing a chicken...). > > > In a message dated 8/15/2009 1:34:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jujulabeemac (DOT) com writes: > > Local (either spinal or epidural) can be used for both hip and knee > replacement. > > There are benefits to local so you should research and discuss with > the OS and anesthesiologist prior to surgery and request your > preference. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Lynn, that's exactly what my original OS told me - that they didn't want to even talk to me for another five years - they were more concerned with having to do a revision than alleviating my pain now. I did wait another year, but the thought of four more - and in the meantime getting progressively worse - was not something I was looking forward to. It wasn't until I became my own advocate that I found out that not all surgeons know everything. I then learned that that particular OS group had an in-the-box, rigid mindset. They weren't willing to step outside that box, so I began a search for someone more sensitive to my needs. Even if it does need to be redone - think how much better your life will be for the next 20 years after your surgery! That's how I'm viewing this. Re: Lynn- compare hip knee. Thanks , I'm wondering: my DR used total anaesthesia for the hip replacement, can local anathetics be used for knee, or still probably totally out? Also do you or anyone know how long these replacements last these days: people used to say " don't have anything done until you can't stand it anymore because it has to be redone in 15 or 20 years " but that's not true anymore is it? Lynn ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I'm a retired trial lawyer, I think they want me OUT completely, if only sp they dont' have to listen to me talk... In a message dated 8/15/2009 9:43:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, coalvilleut@... writes: chicken? LOL My surgeon insisted on total out of it. H have a feeling he will do that again for the knee. I guess it's ok, but a local is " safer " ....he feels there is less complication possible for the surgeon if the person is totally asleep. --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 I should add, to put it in perspective, that they basically didn't even bother doing many of teh " standard " pre-op tests on me...my pulse ox was 100, BP something like 100/60, heart rate 65 or so..they did bloodwork but other than that kind of said " oh the hell with it " and off we went. There was some faint concern about allergic reactions, since I " d never had surgery before, but..no problems. In a message dated 8/15/2009 9:51:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jackiett@... writes: You should have an opportunity to talk with an anesthesiologist to get their opinion. Mine got a big smile when I told him I wanted epidural or spinal. He said that in his opinion that was the best choice for knee surgeries. My sisters¹ anesthesiologist said the same thing. As has noted, there are risks with this approach, too. I wonder what complication the surgeons is thinking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 A chicken? LOL My surgeon insisted on total out of it. H have a feeling he will do that again for the knee. I guess it's ok, but a local is " safer " ....he feels there is less complication possible for the surgeon if the person is totally asleep. > > I assume that would be " local with a chaser of happy juice " of some sort? > > I don't think I want to be present for the experience myself. (Oddly > enough, I would have been fine with teh back surgery under local, but that > wasn't an opting. There is something about hip surgery that reminds me all too > much of disjointing a chicken...). > > > In a message dated 8/15/2009 1:34:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jujulabee@... writes: > > Local (either spinal or epidural) can be used for both hip and knee > replacement. > > There are benefits to local so you should research and discuss with > the OS and anesthesiologist prior to surgery and request your > preference. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 You should have an opportunity to talk with an anesthesiologist to get their opinion. Mine got a big smile when I told him I wanted epidural or spinal. He said that in his opinion that was the best choice for knee surgeries. My sisters¹ anesthesiologist said the same thing. As has noted, there are risks with this approach, too. I wonder what complication the surgeons is thinking about. Jackie On 8/15/09 6:43 PM, " Lynn Badler " <coalvilleut@...> wrote: > > > > > A chicken? LOL > My surgeon insisted on total out of it. H have a feeling he will do that again > for the knee. > I guess it's ok, but a local is " safer " ....he feels there is less complication > possible for the surgeon if the person is totally asleep. >> > >> > I assume that would be " local with a chaser of happy juice " of some sort? >> > >> > I don't think I want to be present for the experience myself. (Oddly >> > enough, I would have been fine with teh back surgery under local, but that >> > wasn't an opting. There is something about hip surgery that reminds me >> all too >> > much of disjointing a chicken...). >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 8/15/2009 1:34:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> > jujulabee@... writes: >> > >> > Local (either spinal or epidural) can be used for both hip and knee >> > replacement. >> > >> > There are benefits to local so you should research and discuss with >> > the OS and anesthesiologist prior to surgery and request your >> > preference. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 My surgeon and I prefer general. I've had surgeries both ways and have never had a problem with either. I think it's just a personal choice and some surgeons prefer one way or another but with both there can be complications and both can and usually do go smoothly. Just my $.02 Jeff ________________________________ From: on <jackiett@...> Joint Replacement Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 9:50:57 PM Subject: Re: Re: Lynn- compare hip knee. You should have an opportunity to talk with an anesthesiologist to get their opinion. Mine got a big smile when I told him I wanted epidural or spinal. He said that in his opinion that was the best choice for knee surgeries. My sisters¹ anesthesiologist said the same thing. As has noted, there are risks with this approach, too.. I wonder what complication the surgeons is thinking about. Jackie On 8/15/09 6:43 PM, " Lynn Badler " <coalvilleut@...> wrote: > > > > > A chicken? LOL > My surgeon insisted on total out of it. H have a feeling he will do that again > for the knee. > I guess it's ok, but a local is " safer " ....he feels there is less complication > possible for the surgeon if the person is totally asleep. >> > >> > I assume that would be " local with a chaser of happy juice " of some sort? >> > >> > I don't think I want to be present for the experience myself. (Oddly >> > enough, I would have been fine with teh back surgery under local, but that >> > wasn't an opting. There is something about hip surgery that reminds me >> all too >> > much of disjointing a chicken...). >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 8/15/2009 1:34:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> > jujulabee@... writes: >> > >> > Local (either spinal or epidural) can be used for both hip and knee >> > replacement. >> > >> > There are benefits to local so you should research and discuss with >> > the OS and anesthesiologist prior to surgery and request your >> > preference. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 I was told some people have nausea after a local anesthetic, so I went with an epidural. One strange thing..as I was being rolled to recovery, I heard a far-away voice shouting " wait ! I block you. " It was the anesthesologist chasing me. He'd forgotten to block some nerve in my leg so the nurse stopped pushing me along, the doc then turned me over on my stomach & climbed right on top of me & began jabbing needles all along my upper leg, watching for reflexes. He finally saw my ankle jump & injected the pain blocker. What a sight that must've been, in the hallway, him atop my backside in the hallway, jabbing like blue blazes. Susie > > I should add, to put it in perspective, that they basically didn't even bother doing many of teh " standard " pre-op tests on me...my pulse ox was 100, BP something like 100/60, heart rate 65 or so..they did bloodwork but other than that kind of said " oh the hell with it " and off we went. There was some faint concern about allergic reactions, since I " d never had surgery before, but..no problems. > > > In a message dated 8/15/2009 9:51:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jackiett@... writes: > > You should have an opportunity to talk with an anesthesiologist to get their > opinion. Mine got a big smile when I told him I wanted epidural or spineal. He said that in his opinion that was the best choice for knee surgeries. My sisters¹ anesthesiologist said the same thing. As has noted, there are risks with this approach, too. I wonder what complication the surgeons is thinking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 For the record, both an epidural and a spinal are considered " local " anesthetics versus a general anesthesia. I am not sure if this was a typo in terms of your writing " local anesthetic " in the first sentence On Aug 16, 2009, at 6:24 AM, susiedu wrote: > I was told some people have nausea after a local anesthetic, so I > went with an epidural. One strange thing..as I was being rolled to > recovery, I heard a far-away voice shouting " wait ! I block you. " It > was the anesthesologist chasing me. He'd forgotten to block some > nerve in my leg so the nurse stopped pushing me along, the doc then > turned me over on my stomach & climbed right on top of me & began > jabbing needles all along my upper leg, watching for reflexes. He > finally saw my ankle jump & injected the pain blocker. What a sight > that must've been, in the hallway, him atop my backside in the > hallway, jabbing like blue blazes. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Yes ma'am, it was a typo in that the word " local " should've been general. Thanks ! Susie > > > I was told some people have nausea after a local anesthetic, so I > > went with an epidural. One strange thing..as I was being rolled to > > recovery, I heard a far-away voice shouting " wait ! I block you. " It > > was the anesthesologist chasing me. He'd forgotten to block some > > nerve in my leg so the nurse stopped pushing me along, the doc then > > turned me over on my stomach & climbed right on top of me & began > > jabbing needles all along my upper leg, watching for reflexes. He > > finally saw my ankle jump & injected the pain blocker. What a sight > > that must've been, in the hallway, him atop my backside in the > > hallway, jabbing like blue blazes. Susie > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Yikes! He " forgot " ? Not encouraging news. I'm glad he remembered...but forgetting? Thank goodness he got to you BEFORE surgery! Re: Lynn- compare hip knee. I was told some people have nausea after a local anesthetic, so I went with an epidural. One strange thing..as I was being rolled to recovery, I heard a far-away voice shouting " wait ! I block you. " It was the anesthesologist chasing me. He'd forgotten to block some nerve in my leg so the nurse stopped pushing me along, the doc then turned me over on my stomach & climbed right on top of me & began jabbing needles all along my upper leg, watching for reflexes. He finally saw my ankle jump & injected the pain blocker. What a sight that must've been, in the hallway, him atop my backside in the hallway, jabbing like blue blazes. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 , this nonsense was AFTER the surgery ! I was still in la-la land, til I heard him shouting. I guess the block injection was to extend pain-free time, & he'd forgotten. What bothered me most was that he kept sticking needles in my thigh til my ankle finally jumped & then he injected something. It was just the beginning of 3 miserable days in the hospital. Susie > > Yikes! He " forgot " ? Not encouraging news. I'm glad he remembered...but forgetting? Thank goodness he got to you BEFORE surgery! > > > Re: Lynn- compare hip knee. > > > I was told some people have nausea after a local anesthetic, so I went with an epidural. One strange thing..as I was being rolled to recovery, I heard a far-away voice shouting " wait ! I block you. " It was the anesthesologist chasing me. He'd forgotten to block some nerve in my leg so the nurse stopped pushing me along, the doc then turned me over on my stomach & climbed right on top of me & began jabbing needles all along my upper leg, watching for reflexes. He finally saw my ankle jump & injected the pain blocker. What a sight that must've been, in the hallway, him atop my backside in the hallway, jabbing like blue blazes. Susie > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 That¹s insane. Glad you have a sense of humor about it. But that was a violation of your privacy. What a start to your hospital stay. OTH you are coming through with flying colors  a testament to determination and hard work! Jackie On 8/16/09 8:45 AM, " susiedu " <susiedu@...> wrote: > > > > > , this nonsense was AFTER the surgery ! I was still in la-la land, > til I heard him shouting. I guess the block injection was to extend pain-free > time, & he'd forgotten. What bothered me most was that he kept sticking > needles in my thigh til my ankle finally jumped & then he injected something. > It was just the beginning of 3 miserable days in the hospital. Susie > > >> > >> > Yikes! He " forgot " ? Not encouraging news. I'm glad he remembered...but >> forgetting? Thank goodness he got to you BEFORE surgery! >> > >> > >> > Re: Lynn- compare hip knee. >> > >> > >> > I was told some people have nausea after a local anesthetic, so I went >> with an epidural. One strange thing..as I was being rolled to recovery, I >> heard a far-away voice shouting " wait ! I block you. " It was the >> anesthesologist chasing me. He'd forgotten to block some nerve in my leg so >> the nurse stopped pushing me along, the doc then turned me over on my stomach >> & climbed right on top of me & began jabbing needles all along my upper leg, >> watching for reflexes. He finally saw my ankle jump & injected the pain >> blocker. What a sight that must've been, in the hallway, him atop my backside >> in the hallway, jabbing like blue blazes. Susie >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Jackie, I hadn't thought if it as a violation of my privacy, but you're right...I was on a gurney in the hallway, heading to recovery & here's this crazy doc straddling my backside, riding along on the gurney & poking needles into me. All I wanted to do was go home, escaped on day 3 & chose to think of the whole experience as a rough camping trip, lol. Home is where we thrive. Yep, & work hard in PT. I'm happy to be at 120 degrees bend after 8 weeks. Thanks !!! Susie , this nonsense was AFTER the surgery ! I was still in la-la land, til I heard him shouting. I guess the block injection was to extend pain-free time, & he'd forgotten. What bothered me most was that he kept sticking needles in my thigh til my ankle finally jumped & then he injected something. It was just the beginning of 3 miserable days in the hospital. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 LOL Yes I think my surgeon thinks that too!!!!! You know maybe it's a good idea to be " out " . Lynn But I have a question to esp the nurses and or doctors on here: I have no pain. The reason I had the Dr. take an xray was because the knee feels " weak " : I use an elastic brace on it...is weakness and bone on bone a good enough reason to have the surgery if there is no pain?--- I do all the walking and exercise I want to, it's not holding me back, I'm just slow on stairs and inclines. In Joint Replacement , jarcher107@... wrote: > > I'm a retired trial lawyer, I think they want me OUT completely, if only > sp they dont' have to listen to me talk... > > > In a message dated 8/15/2009 9:43:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > coalvilleut@... writes: > > chicken? LOL > My surgeon insisted on total out of it. H have a feeling he will do that > again for the knee. > I guess it's ok, but a local is " safer " ....he feels there is less > complication possible for the surgeon if the person is totally asleep. --- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 True.. good for Susie's attitude, but that was a terrible violation of privacy and sounds like being treated as a " thing " not a person. Lynn > >> > > >> > Yikes! He " forgot " ? Not encouraging news. I'm glad he remembered...but > >> forgetting? Thank goodness he got to you BEFORE surgery! > >> > > >> > > >> > Re: Lynn- compare hip knee. > >> > > >> > > >> > I was told some people have nausea after a local anesthetic, so I went > >> with an epidural. One strange thing..as I was being rolled to recovery, I > >> heard a far-away voice shouting " wait ! I block you. " It was the > >> anesthesologist chasing me. He'd forgotten to block some nerve in my leg so > >> the nurse stopped pushing me along, the doc then turned me over on my stomach > >> & climbed right on top of me & began jabbing needles all along my upper leg, > >> watching for reflexes. He finally saw my ankle jump & injected the pain > >> blocker. What a sight that must've been, in the hallway, him atop my backside > >> in the hallway, jabbing like blue blazes. Susie > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Hey Susie, 120 degrees after 8 weeks is great, enjoy the movement! Lynn , this nonsense was AFTER the surgery ! I was still in la-la land, til I heard him shouting. I guess the block injection was to extend pain-free time, & he'd forgotten. What bothered me most was that he kept sticking needles in my thigh til my ankle finally jumped & then he injected something. It was just the beginning of 3 miserable days in the hospital. Susie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Lynn, thank you. My bladder failed 7 days post-op so that meant a week with a catheter, yucky. Urologist said it's common after surgery. It delayed PT a bit but I'm fine & enjoying the movement ! That¹s insane. Glad you have a sense of humor about it. But that was a violation of your privacy. What a start to your hospital stay. OTH you are coming through with flying colors  a testament to determination and hard work! > > > > > > Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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