Re: the sad truth...was Phude Fascists

[Guest guest]

Dee, clearly, you don't understand what you're reading. E. coli was not found in

the eggs in the article, and not a single word about it even occurs in the whole

article that you think is about the " E. coli scare " !

And, the article poked the " ICk fctor " but provided no references for people

who'd prefer data.

You're right, all is certainly not good,

Duncan

>

> Duncan,

>

> Perhaps this will convince you that the E. coli " scare? " is indeed linked to

farming practices.

>

>

http://www.johnrobbins.info/blog/how-egg-industry-greed-caused-the-salmonella-ou\

tbreak/

>

> But then again, maybe not. Do keep in mind, however, that the E. coli in the

eggs could have come from nowhere but the farm as there is no " butchery "

involved and " handling " is unlikely as the E. coli was found inside the shells.

In the case of meat, some contamination is due to handling and some to farm

practices. It is not always easy in that case to tell. That is the reason that

ALL methods of meat production - from animal feed and handling to the rest of

production should be subjected to proper oversight and supervision - because

it's

> Not All Good,

> Dee

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

You're kidding, right? I thought EVERYONE, including you, was aware that around

1,500 cases of salmonella poisoning was due to eating eggs produced on at least

2 farms:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38866401/

quote: " Sherri McGarry of the FDA's Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition

said the salmonella found at County Egg matches the fingerprint of the

salmonella found in many of those who were sickened. She said the tests indicate

that contaminated feed is a source of the outbreak but possibly not the only

source. "

The reason I specifically referenced the article you again claim I " don't

understand " was to counter your claim that the farming practices are not at

fault. Forgive me but I didn't realize you were not aware of the egg

contamination.

Dee

> >

> > Duncan,

> >

> > Perhaps this will convince you that the E. coli " scare? " is indeed linked to

farming practices.

> >

> >

http://www.johnrobbins.info/blog/how-egg-industry-greed-caused-the-salmonella-ou\

tbreak/

> >

> > But then again, maybe not. Do keep in mind, however, that the E. coli in the

eggs could have come from nowhere but the farm as there is no " butchery "

involved and " handling " is unlikely as the E. coli was found inside the shells.

In the case of meat, some contamination is due to handling and some to farm

practices. It is not always easy in that case to tell. That is the reason that

ALL methods of meat production - from animal feed and handling to the rest of

production should be subjected to proper oversight and supervision - because

it's

> > Not All Good,

> > Dee

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dee, it's difficult to make a point to you because you keep confusing e. coli in

tainted beef with salmonella in chicken eggs almost every time you reply.

When we discussed the E. coli scare I pointed out that farming practices do not

cause the beef to be inoculated with E. coli. You fetched up an unrelated topic,

the eggs, and said E. coli was in them too, in your last couple of posts. Did

you know there is a difference and that E. coli is an inoculant in meat and

Salmonella an endemic disease in chickens?

Yup, I'm well aware that the USA-bred chickens have not had salmonella-free

status for about 40 years; I had already posted that observation.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Duncan,

>

> You're kidding, right? I thought EVERYONE, including you, was aware that

around 1,500 cases of salmonella poisoning was due to eating eggs produced on at

least 2 farms:

> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38866401/

> quote: " Sherri McGarry of the FDA's Center for Food Safety and Applied

Nutrition said the salmonella found at County Egg matches the fingerprint

of the salmonella found in many of those who were sickened. She said the tests

indicate that contaminated feed is a source of the outbreak but possibly not the

only source. "

>

> The reason I specifically referenced the article you again claim I " don't

understand " was to counter your claim that the farming practices are not at

fault. Forgive me but I didn't realize you were not aware of the egg

contamination.

>

> Dee

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

Yes there IS a difference but does it really matter? They are both forms of

bacteria that infect farm animals. In the case of eggs it is primarily due to

farming practices and in the case of meat it can be due in some cases to farm

practices (such as coming in contact with beef feces used as fertilizer or

overuse of hormones (probably both) and sometimes in the production of the final

product. But you are dead wrong that farming practices are not a problem with

beef as there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. And contrary to your

charges, I misunderstood nothing - including the prior articles you keep

mentioning. The bottom line is that there is a problem with both eggs and meat

and the people who are affected would hardly consider it a " scare " . And since

you claim to be interested in scientific evidence you can chew on this for

awhile: http://tinyurl.com/3a9okla

And be sure to read it in its' entirety so that YOU don't misunderstand

anything.

Not All Good,

Dee

> >

> > Duncan,

> >

> > You're kidding, right? I thought EVERYONE, including you, was aware that

around 1,500 cases of salmonella poisoning was due to eating eggs produced on at

least 2 farms:

> > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38866401/

> > quote: " Sherri McGarry of the FDA's Center for Food Safety and Applied

Nutrition said the salmonella found at County Egg matches the fingerprint

of the salmonella found in many of those who were sickened. She said the tests

indicate that contaminated feed is a source of the outbreak but possibly not the

only source. "

> >

> > The reason I specifically referenced the article you again claim I " don't

understand " was to counter your claim that the farming practices are not at

fault. Forgive me but I didn't realize you were not aware of the egg

contamination.

> >

> > Dee

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dee, research points to WILD birds as being a main vector for salmonella on

farms, including cross contamination of farms, and goes on to suggest a need for

controlling wildlife as well.

<http://www.berrymaninstitute.org/journal/spring2007/Pedersen.pdf>

Not all of the salmonella readily transmits to humans; some more rarely than

others. This study points it out: " We present here Salmonella Dublin Bacteraemia

in an elderly patient, with all the clinical details, due to the rarity of its

occurrence. "

<http://www.ijmm.org/article.asp?issn=0255-0857;year=2009;volume=27;issue=4;spag\

e=365;epage=367;aulast=Dias>

E. coli and salmonella are everywhere, literally dozens of strains; I'm thinking

that instead of continuing to lace feed with antibiotics, which produces

resistant strains, attending to the terrain may be the better option. For

example butyric acid that is used today in humans to help correct bowel

dysbiosis and " cure " Crohn's disease, also works on animals with salmonella.

See:

" Preventing Salmonella infections by rationally designed feed... "

<http://www.google.com/search?client=aff-cs-worldbrowser & forid=1 & ie=utf-8 & oe=UTF\

-8 & q=butyric+OR+butyrate+salmonella>

Because butyric acid is created by a healthy bowel ecology, perhaps these

animals are getting sick due to an unhealthy bowel ecology, which can be

improved with feed additives that foster probiotic growth. Not so much a farming

practice but a feed practice that adjusts internal susceptability, just like we

do with the prebiotic Inulin.

Further on terrain, Transfer Factor confers immunity to whatever germ or virus

the host was immune to. Just think of the miracle of being immune to many of

those diseases with a single oral therapy as opposed to dozens of vaccinations.

Research has shown cattle are immune so usually do NOT get sick from it or shed

it through their feces or milk even after researchers collapse their immune

response; it is encapsulated by local nodules until the cow's immune system

deals with it. The cattle's transfer factors will allow us to become similarly

immune. Similarly, chicken eggs also contain transfer factors. This will

probably not completely prevent a bout of enteritis, but it will prevent a

tissue infection, and again, enteritis risk is minimised by a good bowel culture

in both man and beast.

Looks like we may have a partial answer, in feeding the animals and ourselves

better.

Seems with the wild bird vector concern that the poultry manure should be

sterilised before it's used for amendment on the fields. Once pathogen-free it

can be used as feed or spread safely as fertiliser. Seems the reseach points to

the necessity of both, plus incinerating it, just to get rid of all the waste.

In the Vancouver area for example the poultry farms are producing about three

times what can be spread on the fields and they're looking for ways to get rid

of it before we're in it up to our eyeballs. Most likely the issue has also been

raised for cow manure.

all good,

Duncan

>

> Duncan,

>

> Yes there IS a difference but does it really matter? They are both forms of

bacteria that infect farm animals. In the case of eggs it is primarily due to

farming practices and in the case of meat it can be due in some cases to farm

practices (such as coming in contact with beef feces used as fertilizer or

overuse of hormones (probably both) and sometimes in the production of the final

product. But you are dead wrong that farming practices are not a problem with

beef as there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. And contrary to your

charges, I misunderstood nothing - including the prior articles you keep

mentioning. The bottom line is that there is a problem with both eggs and meat

and the people who are affected would hardly consider it a " scare " . And since

you claim to be interested in scientific evidence you can chew on this for

awhile: http://tinyurl.com/3a9okla

> And be sure to read it in its' entirety so that YOU don't misunderstand

anything.

> Not All Good,

> Dee

>

[Guest guest]

If you have seen 'food inc' and 'Dirt' ?  we need to look at the fact that this

stuff is all done way with normal care and feeding of fam amimals, instead of

drugs and gmo'ing everything just feed these animals what they need--if they

take the cattle off the grains 1 week b\4 buthchering there would not be any

need for fear of comusming e-coli.  Chickens need to be running free eating bug

worms and seeds.  and i don't mean keep them in a cage and move every few hours

that is rediculus.   We should be buying all we eat from the land in our

neighborhoods local grown then if someone gets sick due to poor practices that

conflick with nature we can take our miney and go some where else.

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

Gee, and here I thought you wanted to move on :-) But I guess you just had to

have the last word so consider it had. Too bad it took so long for you to admit,

though, that there is more to the salmonella in beef issue than the " ick

factor " . I also find it interesting that you waited until now to do any real

research on the issue until Alobar mentioned antibiotics and I provided the info

on that. But I'll check yours out as well.

Dee

> >

> > Duncan,

> >

> > Yes there IS a difference but does it really matter? They are both forms of

bacteria that infect farm animals. In the case of eggs it is primarily due to

farming practices and in the case of meat it can be due in some cases to farm

practices (such as coming in contact with beef feces used as fertilizer or

overuse of hormones (probably both) and sometimes in the production of the final

product. But you are dead wrong that farming practices are not a problem with

beef as there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. And contrary to your

charges, I misunderstood nothing - including the prior articles you keep

mentioning. The bottom line is that there is a problem with both eggs and meat

and the people who are affected would hardly consider it a " scare " . And since

you claim to be interested in scientific evidence you can chew on this for

awhile: http://tinyurl.com/3a9okla

> > And be sure to read it in its' entirety so that YOU don't misunderstand

anything.

> > Not All Good,

> > Dee

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I believe we also have to be our brother's keeper and look out for more than

just ourselves Evie, which means that we have to ensure that all who profit from

farming practices are doing so in a way that promotes health rather than

disease. It's the very least we can do. And I'm very glad you watched 'Food

Inc.' I hope that everyone does.

Best,

Dee

>

> If you have seen 'food inc' and 'Dirt' ?  we need to look at the fact that

this stuff is all done way with normal care and feeding of fam amimals, instead

of drugs and gmo'ing everything just feed these animals what they need--if they

take the cattle off the grains 1 week b\4 buthchering there would not be any

need for fear of comusming e-coli.  Chickens need to be running free eating bug

worms and seeds.  and i don't mean keep them in a cage and move every few hours

that is rediculus.   We should be buying all we eat from the land in our

neighborhoods local grown then if someone gets sick due to poor practices that

conflick with nature we can take our miney and go some where else.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I totally agree but you cant push a rope.  I try to share stuff with my circle

of friends and family.   I was talking to my mentor in all things clean and

nutritous and she was telling me that farmers  they have been working with they

just found out that they continue to use monsanto products for their crops and

such sad but true. Thanks

From: Dolores <dgk@...>

Subject: Re: the sad truth...was " Phude Fascists "

Coconut Oil

Date: Saturday, September 25, 2010, 1:29 PM

 

I believe we also have to be our brother's keeper and look out for more than

just ourselves Evie, which means that we have to ensure that all who profit from

farming practices are doing so in a way that promotes health rather than

disease. It's the very least we can do. And I'm very glad you watched 'Food

Inc.' I hope that everyone does.

Best,

Dee

>

> If you have seen 'food inc' and 'Dirt' ?  we need to look at the fact that

this stuff is all done way with normal care and feeding of fam amimals, instead

of drugs and gmo'ing everything just feed these animals what they need--if they

take the cattle off the grains 1 week b\4 buthchering there would not be any

need for fear of comusming e-coli.  Chickens need to be running free eating bug

worms and seeds.  and i don't mean keep them in a cage and move every few hours

that is rediculus.   We should be buying all we eat from the land in our

neighborhoods local grown then if someone gets sick due to poor practices that

conflick with nature we can take our miney and go some where else.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Evie,

Yes, Monsonto has become a monster that's very hard to control. Dr. Mercola has

one of the best exposes on his website here:

http://tinyurl.com/23mh64b

But perhaps if we all pull the rope in the other direction we can make some

headway. There is a good article in the Washington Post relating how, >quote:

" During the Bush administration, the Justice Department did not file a single

case under antimonopoly laws regulating a dominant firm. But that stretch seems

unlikely to continue.

This year, the Obama Justice Department tossed out the antitrust guidelines of

its predecessor because they advocated " extreme hesitancy in the face of

potential abuses by monopoly firms. " We must change course, " Varney,

the Obama administration's chief antitrust enforcer, said at the time.>end quote

http://tinyurl.com/yfx452y

Best,

Dee

> >

> > If you have seen 'food inc' and 'Dirt' ?  we need to look at the fact that

this stuff is all done way with normal care and feeding of fam amimals, instead

of drugs and gmo'ing everything just feed these animals what they need--if they

take the cattle off the grains 1 week b\4 buthchering there would not be any

need for fear of comusming e-coli.  Chickens need to be running free eating bug

worms and seeds.  and i don't mean keep them in a cage and move every few hours

that is rediculus.   We should be buying all we eat from the land in our

neighborhoods local grown then if someone gets sick due to poor practices that

conflick with nature we can take our miney and go some where else.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

If wild birds are easily contaminated with Salmonella, and farmers

spread raw chicken waste on fields, us humans are making for bigger

and bigger problems in our world, aren't we.

Alobar

On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> wrote:

>

> Dee, research points to WILD birds as being a main vector for salmonella on

farms, including cross contamination of farms, and goes on to suggest a need for

controlling wildlife as well.

> <http://www.berrymaninstitute.org/journal/spring2007/Pedersen.pdf>

>

> Not all of the salmonella readily transmits to humans; some more rarely than

others. This study points it out: " We present here Salmonella Dublin Bacteraemia

in an elderly patient, with all the clinical details, due to the rarity of its

occurrence. "

>

<http://www.ijmm.org/article.asp?issn=0255-0857;year=2009;volume=27;issue=4;spag\

e=365;epage=367;aulast=Dias>

>

> E. coli and salmonella are everywhere, literally dozens of strains; I'm

thinking that instead of continuing to lace feed with antibiotics, which

produces resistant strains, attending to the terrain may be the better option.

For example butyric acid that is used today in humans to help correct bowel

dysbiosis and " cure " Crohn's disease, also works on animals with salmonella.

See:

> " Preventing Salmonella infections by rationally designed feed... "

>

<http://www.google.com/search?client=aff-cs-worldbrowser & forid=1 & ie=utf-8 & oe=UTF\

-8 & q=butyric+OR+butyrate+salmonella>

>

> Because butyric acid is created by a healthy bowel ecology, perhaps these

animals are getting sick due to an unhealthy bowel ecology, which can be

improved with feed additives that foster probiotic growth. Not so much a farming

practice but a feed practice that adjusts internal susceptability, just like we

do with the prebiotic Inulin.

>

> Further on terrain, Transfer Factor confers immunity to whatever germ or virus

the host was immune to. Just think of the miracle of being immune to many of

those diseases with a single oral therapy as opposed to dozens of vaccinations.

>

> Research has shown cattle are immune so usually do NOT get sick from it or

shed it through their feces or milk even after researchers collapse their immune

response; it is encapsulated by local nodules until the cow's immune system

deals with it. The cattle's transfer factors will allow us to become similarly

immune. Similarly, chicken eggs also contain transfer factors. This will

probably not completely prevent a bout of enteritis, but it will prevent a

tissue infection, and again, enteritis risk is minimised by a good bowel culture

in both man and beast.

>

> Looks like we may have a partial answer, in feeding the animals and ourselves

better.

>

> Seems with the wild bird vector concern that the poultry manure should be

sterilised before it's used for amendment on the fields. Once pathogen-free it

can be used as feed or spread safely as fertiliser. Seems the reseach points to

the necessity of both, plus incinerating it, just to get rid of all the waste.

In the Vancouver area for example the poultry farms are producing about three

times what can be spread on the fields and they're looking for ways to get rid

of it before we're in it up to our eyeballs. Most likely the issue has also been

raised for cow manure.

>

> all good,

>

> Duncan

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with careful shopping, and the the organic movement is strong here. Weed

and Feed and other herbicides and pesticides are banned in our city, and city

council uses only free run or free range eggs in their official events, I forget

which. We buy organic at the farmers markets too but US regulations prohibit the

labeling of food as organic so none of our US-bought organic produce can claim

that it is so it can't compete at the supermarkets.

Not sure about that cow statement Evie; my understanding is that cows contain a

lot of E. coli regardless of whether they eat some grain or not; it's the main

microbe in their gut.

Duncan

>

> If you have seen 'food inc' and 'Dirt' ?  we need to look at the fact that

this stuff is all done way with normal care and feeding of fam amimals, instead

of drugs and gmo'ing everything just feed these animals what they need--if they

take the cattle off the grains 1 week b\4 buthchering there would not be any

need for fear of comusming e-coli.  Chickens need to be running free eating bug

worms and seeds.  and i don't mean keep them in a cage and move every few hours

that is rediculus.   We should be buying all we eat from the land in our

neighborhoods local grown then if someone gets sick due to poor practices that

conflick with nature we can take our miney and go some where else.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Alobar; I've been reading industry documents that mention wild birds have

been the disease vector for about a dozen strains of salmonella in the last few

decades.

Chicken waste is known to burn the plants unless it is rotted. In our particular

area the waste is rotted for almost a year before they spread it; this also

renders the waste very low in pathogens. The practise has not increased

salmonella in Canada, which is still considered salmonella-free.

I'd want to know how many farms in the USA are putting raw waste on the fields

and whether this affects the endemic salmonella. I note that most of the farms

seem to be selling processed pelletized waste, which is considered to be

pathogen-free.

all good,

Duncan

[Guest guest]

Hi Duncan,

Back 45 years ago when I studied Agriculture in college, raw poultry waste

was blended with cow manure and spread on fields here in the US.

Alobar

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...> wrote:

> Hi Alobar; I've been reading industry documents that mention wild birds

> have been the disease vector for about a dozen strains of salmonella in the

> last few decades.

>

> Chicken waste is known to burn the plants unless it is rotted. In our

> particular area the waste is rotted for almost a year before they spread it;

> this also renders the waste very low in pathogens. The practise has not

> increased salmonella in Canada, which is still considered salmonella-free.

>

> I'd want to know how many farms in the USA are putting raw waste on the

> fields and whether this affects the endemic salmonella. I note that most of

> the farms seem to be selling processed pelletized waste, which is considered

> to be pathogen-free.

>

> all good,

>

> Duncan

>

>

[Guest guest]

*Alobar:

Yes, but you have to go lightly on the poultry manure. It quickly

upsets the pH balance of the soil. We have lots of it here in Delaware

(once the chicken capital of the US), but we end up shipping to places

where the soil can take it.

Jim*

On 10/5/2010 10:27 PM, Alobar wrote:

>

> Hi Duncan,

>

> Back 45 years ago when I studied Agriculture in college, raw poultry waste

> was blended with cow manure and spread on fields here in the US.

>

> Alobar

>

> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...

> <mailto:duncancrow%40>> wrote:

>

> > Hi Alobar; I've been reading industry documents that mention wild birds

> > have been the disease vector for about a dozen strains of salmonella

> in the

> > last few decades.

> >

> > Chicken waste is known to burn the plants unless it is rotted. In our

> > particular area the waste is rotted for almost a year before they

> spread it;

> > this also renders the waste very low in pathogens. The practise has not

> > increased salmonella in Canada, which is still considered

> salmonella-free.

> >

> > I'd want to know how many farms in the USA are putting raw waste on the

> > fields and whether this affects the endemic salmonella. I note that

> most of

> > the farms seem to be selling processed pelletized waste, which is

> considered

> > to be pathogen-free.

> >

> > all good,

> >

> > Duncan

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Alobar,

since you studied agriculture, is it true that horse manure is the best

fertilizer, won't burn plants?

>

> > Hi Alobar; I've been reading industry documents that mention wild birds

> > have been the disease vector for about a dozen strains of salmonella in the

> > last few decades.

> >

> > Chicken waste is known to burn the plants unless it is rotted. In our

> > particular area the waste is rotted for almost a year before they spread it;

> > this also renders the waste very low in pathogens. The practise has not

> > increased salmonella in Canada, which is still considered salmonella-free.

> >

> > I'd want to know how many farms in the USA are putting raw waste on the

> > fields and whether this affects the endemic salmonella. I note that most of

> > the farms seem to be selling processed pelletized waste, which is considered

> > to be pathogen-free.

> >

> > all good,

> >

> > Duncan

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Not much was mentioned about horse manure in college, but my family

had a big garden, and I had a horse. We had great big fat juicy

crops with lots of flavor.

Alobar

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 12:12 PM, <@...> wrote:

> Alobar,

>

> since you studied agriculture, is it true that horse manure is the best

fertilizer, won't burn plants?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jim,

Greetings from the Philippines !

What do you mean chicken manure upsets the soil ?  Here in the Philippines,

chicken manure when dried is either applied singly directly to the soil as an

organic fertilizer and soil conditioner or used a a component of blended

commercial fertilizers for agricultural and horticultural crops/plants.

We have analyzed dried chicken manures from several poultry farms in different

regions in the country. Our findings (average mineral nutrient content are:

macro and secondary nutrients (in %) : 2.1% N, 3.35% P205, 3.10% K20, 5.34% CaO,

1.95% MgO, 0.09% S, 0.65% Cl, 1.17% Na;

MIcronutrients (in mg/kg or ppm): 45 ppm B, 580 ppm Zn; 27,620 ppm Fe (2.70%

Fe), 1,710 ppm Mn and 116 ppm Cu.

Clearly, not only that the dried or slightly decomposed chicken manure is a

supplementary source of  plant/crop nutrients, but provides a substantial

amounts of calcium (Ca), and plant micronutrients boron (, zinc (Zn),

manganese (Mn); and remarkable high levels of micronutrient iron (Fe) at 2.70

%.  Moreover, due to this richness of chicken manue in many plant nutrients,

the generally good response of most crops in the Philippines  and in many

countries as shown in many technical reports, globally is not surprising.

Hoping, this information is knowledge and make sense.

Cheers,

Sev Magat

>

> > Hi Alobar; I've been reading industry documents that mention wild birds

> > have been the disease vector for about a dozen strains of salmonella

> in the

> > last few decades.

> >

> > Chicken waste is known to burn the plants unless it is rotted. In our

> > particular area the waste is rotted for almost a year before they

> spread it;

> > this also renders the waste very low in pathogens. The practise has not

> > increased salmonella in Canada, which is still considered

> salmonella-free.

> >

> > I'd want to know how many farms in the USA are putting raw waste on the

> > fields and whether this affects the endemic salmonella. I note that

> most of

> > the farms seem to be selling processed pelletized waste, which is

> considered

> > to be pathogen-free.

> >

> > all good,

> >

> > Duncan

> >

> >

>

>