Guest guest Posted September 14, 2007 Report Share Posted September 14, 2007 Your pro is wrong. And I am a pro as well. Bill On 9/14/07, tonysoares@... <tonysoares@...> wrote: > > > > I spoke with someone who works with The Rutgers Eaglton instititute polls > as well as > The Quinnipiac College polls. Based on Fred (and others asking) for > results of a recent poll) He told me that data collected by a casual > poll does not, repeat does not fall under the same standards or > copyright or proprietary laws as formal , academic or professional based > polls that are authorized and comissioned by boards that set guidlines and > standards for usage and stadards. > So when someone italks about their days as a journalist, ad guy or college > office staffer as an expert. They are wrong on this topic. > > The info gathered on the recent polls are not owned by Rose or > , because under basic journalistic academic or data collection > standards they are not being published in a legitimate publication offered > for usage to legitimate services or dealt with in a professionally time > sensitive manner. > > That's from a pro. > > Not me > > --Tony > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2007 Report Share Posted September 14, 2007 And you work at which routinely utilized organization for polling? Rutgers/Eagleton? Qunnicpiac? AP? There are hundreds but out here those are very well regarded. Rose and 's polls are not ofiicially authorized or legitimized polls. they are ad-hoc polls and hold no clout or weight. I've also hire professional pollsters when I ran for council. Political polls are volunteer polls and when one participates you are told a script that states legal information as to who is conducting the reasearch and a vague idea of it's purpose. It's completely voluntary. Given that Rose and run a list they give the impression that it is for the benefit of the members. If you wanna give yourself a @#$% on trying to prove me wrong that's fine, I really don't care. Tony Re: on future polls " tonysoares@... " Cc: dwarfism > Your pro is wrong. > > And I am a pro as well. > > Bill > > On 9/14/07, tonysoares@... wrote: > > > > > > > > I spoke with someone who works with The Rutgers Eaglton > instititute polls > > as well as > > The Quinnipiac College polls. Based on Fred (and others > asking) for > > results of a recent poll) He told me that data collected > by a casual > > poll does not, repeat does not fall under the same > standards or > > copyright or proprietary laws as formal , academic or > professional based > > polls that are authorized and comissioned by boards that set > guidlines and > > standards for usage and stadards. > > So when someone italks about their days as a journalist, ad > guy or college > > office staffer as an expert. They are wrong on this topic. > > > > The info gathered on the recent polls are not owned by > Rose or > > , because under basic journalistic academic or data collection > > standards they are not being published in a legitimate > publication offered > > for usage to legitimate services or dealt with in a > professionally time > > sensitive manner. > > > > That's from a pro. > > > > Not me > > > > --Tony > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2007 Report Share Posted September 14, 2007 Tony, you are confusing the first amendment with laws regarding intellectual property and copyrighted material. According to the Berne Copyright Convention, signed into law on April 1, 1989, " mere facts " and " survey forms " are not copyrighted material. For example, if you wanted to duplicate Rose and 's forms and do your own survey, then you would not be violating any copyrighted material. Also, the facts gleaned from the surveys are not copyrighted, however, conclusions from those facts are. And it matters not whether the surveyors are from a " legitimate " publication or use " basic journalistic " procedures. and Rose are under no compulsion (other than common courtesy) to divulge the results of their survey unless they were subpoenaed in the process of a civil or criminal investigation to provide the information under oath. Another example: If you walk around and ask ten people what they thought of President Bush, neither I, nor anyone you asked, can compel you to divulge what they said to you unless you were ordered to do so in a court of law. This falls under the first amendment right to provide freedom of expression and freedom of thought. This right also provides the freedom of an individual NOT to express their thoughts. What you probably didn't tell your " pro " friend was that and Rose conducted a PRIVATE survey with consenting adults with the expressed intent of publication. Your friend would be correct if the survey was done through the list with all responses sent to the list in general (which would fall under the category of a " casual " survey) and wasn't specifically designated for publication. So yes, the info gleaned by and Rose is not " owned " by them. But they are also under no obligation to reveal what they gleaned. What this simply means is that if you beat them to the punch, do your own survey, and then write an essay or book based on that survey, then THEY cannot make a copyright claim against YOU. (UNLESS the conclusions of your survey undermine their intellectual proprietary rights to " works in progress. " It would be difficult to prove in court, but they could still make a claim against you.) Why don't you let it go? Take a deep breath, relax, enjoy the coming of the fall. Bill (ISO 9000-x certified editor and auditor) On 9/14/07, Bill Bradford <tslug1@...> wrote: > Your pro is wrong. > > And I am a pro as well. > > Bill > > > On 9/14/07, tonysoares@... < tonysoares@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I spoke with someone who works with The Rutgers Eaglton instititute polls > as well as > > The Quinnipiac College polls. Based on Fred (and others asking) for > results of a recent poll) He told me that data collected by a casual > poll does not, repeat does not fall under the same standards or > copyright or proprietary laws as formal , academic or professional based > polls that are authorized and comissioned by boards that set guidlines and > standards for usage and stadards. > > So when someone italks about their days as a journalist, ad guy or college > office staffer as an expert. They are wrong on this topic. > > > > The info gathered on the recent polls are not owned by Rose or > , because under basic journalistic academic or data collection > standards they are not being published in a legitimate publication offered > for usage to legitimate services or dealt with in a professionally time > sensitive manner. > > > > That's from a pro. > > > > Not me > > > > --Tony > > > > > -- " Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will. " - Gandhi " A wise man has great power, and a man of knowledge increases strength " - Proverbs 24:5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2007 Report Share Posted September 14, 2007 You workED at a newpaper correct? were you a pollster for The NY Times, a University, The Associated Press The Eagleton Institute or any golbal service in your Carreer? If so, you may have some points but Don't discount his you will lok foolish Re: on future polls " tonysoares@... " Cc: dwarfism > Your pro is wrong. > > And I am a pro as well. > > Bill > > On 9/14/07, tonysoares@... wrote: > > > > > > > > I spoke with someone who works with The Rutgers Eaglton > instititute polls > > as well as > > The Quinnipiac College polls. Based on Fred (and others > asking) for > > results of a recent poll) He told me that data collected > by a casual > > poll does not, repeat does not fall under the same > standards or > > copyright or proprietary laws as formal , academic or > professional based > > polls that are authorized and comissioned by boards that set > guidlines and > > standards for usage and stadards. > > So when someone italks about their days as a journalist, ad > guy or college > > office staffer as an expert. They are wrong on this topic. > > > > The info gathered on the recent polls are not owned by > Rose or > > , because under basic journalistic academic or data collection > > standards they are not being published in a legitimate > publication offered > > for usage to legitimate services or dealt with in a > professionally time > > sensitive manner. > > > > That's from a pro. > > > > Not me > > > > --Tony > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2007 Report Share Posted September 14, 2007 Please let this go. I will say in 's defense this poll is so informal. We were all giving the understanding the results of the poll would be released shortly after the deadline. > > > > > > > > > > > > I spoke with someone who works with The Rutgers Eaglton > > instititute polls > > > as well as > > > The Quinnipiac College polls. Based on Fred (and others > > asking) for > > > results of a recent poll) He told me that data collected > > by a casual > > > poll does not, repeat does not fall under the same > > standards or > > > copyright or proprietary laws as formal , academic or > > professional based > > > polls that are authorized and comissioned by boards that set > > guidlines and > > > standards for usage and stadards. > > > So when someone italks about their days as a journalist, ad > > guy or college > > > office staffer as an expert. They are wrong on this topic. > > > > > > The info gathered on the recent polls are not owned by > > Rose or > > > , because under basic journalistic academic or data collection > > > standards they are not being published in a legitimate > > publication offered > > > for usage to legitimate services or dealt with in a > > professionally time > > > sensitive manner. > > > > > > That's from a pro. > > > > > > Not me > > > > > > --Tony > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2007 Report Share Posted September 14, 2007 There is a distinction between a popular poll done by a newspaper or other media outlet and those done by academic institutions for research publications which I think was what was referring to when he was referencing research institutes/centers he contacted. An academic poll would have rigid guidelines and would be supervised by professionals in that field and would have to be vetted by an Institutional Review Board and have specific regulations regarding human subjects. The poll and Rose did does not fit the criteria above which is what I think was saying. > > Tony, you are confusing the first amendment with laws regarding > intellectual property and copyrighted material. > > According to the Berne Copyright Convention, signed into law on April > 1, 1989, " mere facts " and " survey forms " are not copyrighted material. > For example, if you wanted to duplicate Rose and 's forms and do > your own survey, then you would not be violating any copyrighted > material. Also, the facts gleaned from the surveys are not > copyrighted, however, conclusions from those facts are. And it > matters not whether the surveyors are from a " legitimate " publication > or use " basic journalistic " procedures. > > and Rose are under no compulsion (other than common courtesy) to > divulge the results of their survey unless they were subpoenaed in the > process of a civil or criminal investigation to provide the > information under oath. Another example: If you walk around and ask > ten people what they thought of President Bush, neither I, nor anyone > you asked, can compel you to divulge what they said to you unless you > were ordered to do so in a court of law. This falls under the first > amendment right to provide freedom of expression and freedom of > thought. This right also provides the freedom of an individual NOT to > express their thoughts. > > What you probably didn't tell your " pro " friend was that and > Rose conducted a PRIVATE survey with consenting adults with the > expressed intent of publication. Your friend would be correct if the > survey was done through the list with all responses sent to the list > in general (which would fall under the category of a " casual " survey) > and wasn't specifically designated for publication. > > So yes, the info gleaned by and Rose is not " owned " by them. > But they are also under no obligation to reveal what they gleaned. > What this simply means is that if you beat them to the punch, do your > own survey, and then write an essay or book based on that survey, then > THEY cannot make a copyright claim against YOU. (UNLESS the > conclusions of your survey undermine their intellectual proprietary > rights to " works in progress. " It would be difficult to prove in > court, but they could still make a claim against you.) > > Why don't you let it go? Take a deep breath, relax, enjoy the coming > of the fall. > > Bill > (ISO 9000-x certified editor and auditor) > > > > > > > > I spoke with someone who works with The Rutgers Eaglton instititute polls > > as well as > > > The Quinnipiac College polls. Based on Fred (and others asking) for > > results of a recent poll) He told me that data collected by a casual > > poll does not, repeat does not fall under the same standards or > > copyright or proprietary laws as formal , academic or professional based > > polls that are authorized and comissioned by boards that set guidlines and > > standards for usage and stadards. > > > So when someone italks about their days as a journalist, ad guy or college > > office staffer as an expert. They are wrong on this topic. > > > > > > The info gathered on the recent polls are not owned by Rose or > > , because under basic journalistic academic or data collection > > standards they are not being published in a legitimate publication offered > > for usage to legitimate services or dealt with in a professionally time > > sensitive manner. > > > > > > That's from a pro. > > > > > > Not me > > > > > > --Tony > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2007 Report Share Posted September 14, 2007 I have to admit I don't even know what the poll was for, because I'm getting use to deleting most of the e-mails on this list. Steve >From: " Jim " <jimcofpa@...> >dwarfism >Subject: Re: on future polls >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:41:08 -0000 > >Please let this go. I will say in 's defense this poll is so >informal. We were all giving the understanding the results of the >poll would be released shortly after the deadline. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I spoke with someone who works with The Rutgers Eaglton > > > instititute polls > > > > as well as > > > > The Quinnipiac College polls. Based on Fred (and others > > > asking) for > > > > results of a recent poll) He told me that data collected > > > by a casual > > > > poll does not, repeat does not fall under the same > > > standards or > > > > copyright or proprietary laws as formal , academic or > > > professional based > > > > polls that are authorized and comissioned by boards that set > > > guidlines and > > > > standards for usage and stadards. > > > > So when someone italks about their days as a journalist, ad > > > guy or college > > > > office staffer as an expert. They are wrong on this topic. > > > > > > > > The info gathered on the recent polls are not owned by > > > Rose or > > > > , because under basic journalistic academic or data >collection > > > > standards they are not being published in a legitimate > > > publication offered > > > > for usage to legitimate services or dealt with in a > > > professionally time > > > > sensitive manner. > > > > > > > > That's from a pro. > > > > > > > > Not me > > > > > > > > --Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2007 Report Share Posted September 15, 2007 I think the biggest problem with this issue is basic confusion. Recently the moderators of this list, Whims, & Adelaide, created some polls to help the running of this list go more smoothly. -sponsored polls have been a part of this list since it was run by Dan Kennedy. The results of past polls are always available to members by going to <dwarfism/poll>. The relationship survey that & I did was through Survey Monkey, the very same instrument that LPA has used for its surveys. & I paid for the subscription with our own money and received no componsation from any person or organization. This had nothing to do with with the exception of getting the various list owners/moderator's permission to post our information and the URL for the survey. As always, if there are any continuing questions about our work feel free to email either or I and we will be happy to answer them. You will get a faster response by emailing us directly rather than posting on a public forum that we don't tend to check daily. Rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2007 Report Share Posted September 15, 2007 Rose, How many responses did you recieve? I hope it didn't cause you and too much of a expenditure. ism , " Rose " <RMBJustice@...> wrote: > > I think the biggest problem with this issue is basic confusion. > Recently the moderators of this list, Whims, & Adelaide, > created some polls to help the running of this list go more smoothly. > -sponsored polls have been a part of this list since it was run > by Dan Kennedy. The results of past polls are always available to > members by going to > <dwarfism/poll>. > > The relationship survey that & I did was through Survey Monkey, > the very same instrument that LPA has used for its surveys. & I > paid for the subscription with our own money and received no > componsation from any person or organization. This had nothing to do > with with the exception of getting the various list > owners/moderator's permission to post our information and the URL for > the survey. > > As always, if there are any continuing questions about our work feel > free to email either or I and we will be happy to answer them. > You will get a faster response by emailing us directly rather than > posting on a public forum that we don't tend to check daily. > > Rose > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2007 Report Share Posted September 15, 2007 If you all remember (and if you don't I've pasted the original request to participate in 'our' survey below under Jim's 'point'; we did not give a deadline for the publication of the results of 'our' survey. So if one of us did state the results would be published " shortly " , then it is in the eye of the beholder as to what 'shortly' is interpreted as. 1. I was amazed at the amount of responses 2. I was fascinated by what the responses reveal The project is worth giving serious consideration to, thus I (and I'm sure Rose agrees) will not jump in and just post numbers because of the constant postings on this list calling for results. Just as a double check I looked through the archives for this board and CANNOT find ANY POST that states a deadline for the publication of the results and in the manner in which they will be disclosed. If anyone finds this a post, please state the reference number. When we have results, this discussion list will be one of the first to know, in one format or another. > > Please let this go. I will say in 's defense this poll is so > informal. We were all giving the understanding the results of the > poll would be released shortly after the deadline. Dear Fellow Dwarf Community Members -- Betty Adelson recently published 2 groundbreaking books on and for our community, " The Lives of Dwarfs: Their Journey from Public Curiosity Toward Social Liberation " and " Dwarfism: Medical and Psychosocial Aspects of Profound Short Stature. " In both of these books, Dr. Adelson discusses the lack of information available about our? romantic relationships and states all she could find reported that only 30% of adults with dwarfism ever marry. We, & Rose, have been curious about these statistic since 2005 with the publication of these books. So in response we have created a survey to get a better idea of how we make families. This survey is anonymous and for dwarfs only, no disrespect meant to our AH family members. The survey will remain open until July 31, 2007 until 11:59 PM. http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=8adULeo4HyfcxFzeNDABSA_3d_3d Please take a moment to take this survey and help our community. Feel free to pass on this link to your friends who might not read any of the lists regularly. If you have any questions, do not hesitate to write to us. Thank you to all the list owners/moderators for assisting in helping pass this information along. petite_isla@... Rose Justice rmbjustice@... and Dear Folks -- One last reminder for the Dwarfism & Relationships Survey. It will close on 7/31/07 at 11:45 pm EST. If you have taken it, we thank you. If you haven't, please consider adding your response. It is anonymous. If you have any questions, concerns, or comments do not hesitate to write to us. All feedback is welcome. http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=8adULeo4HyfcxFzeNDABSA_3d_3d Rose Justice rmbjustice@... petite_isla@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2007 Report Share Posted September 15, 2007 I just spoke with Rose, who is on a short road trip, and told her I am going to play her for a few minutes in order to respond to your question. As stated previously, we are not prepared to disclose results; basically the out-of-pocket cost for the 'Relationship survey' amounted to 10 cents per response. Since we have no children who will go unfed or have to walk barefoot both ways uphill to school (in snow), we both think it was worth the monetary out-of-pocket expense. But, we appreciate your concern. > > Rose, > > How many responses did you recieve? I hope it didn't cause you and > too much of a expenditure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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