Re: Designer Dwarf, it's mixed for me

[Guest guest]

> It is not my decision nor should it be the government's what a

Couple or a parent wants to do with an embryo they created.

- I'm out on this one as I still feel their creation is that, a

living creation and not a piece of clay, say, where they can just

smoosh and start all over again. But, this is my opinion and I

respect yers as well:).

> Personally I would bring an achon embroy of my own creation to term

if it was my only choice. However it was between an Achon embtroyo

faced with the possiblilty of a life of physical and health problems

or an averaged sized child with a far less chance of physical

challaanges I think I would hope for an average sized child.

- I disagree, and this is just me speaking again, my opinion too,

whether the lp embryo was faced with challenges or not, be them

physical or environmental, I still would go ahead as life itself,

period, is not a guarantee. Because I could go ahead and have that

ap, free of any physical 'inhibiting factors', for lack of a better

descriptive way of saying it rather than using the word 'defects',

because I don't see an lp embryo with them vs. an ap embryo without

them as being something less. And maybe that's where out differences

lie here in this discussion? It's where we see oursleves in the

overall picture of life, and not soo much of how we may see an achon

embryo with physical inhibiting factors, perhaps? As I will be one to

say that I've have had my fare share of those factors, but they also

made me, in as much as they have diminished my physical capablities

too. It's more or less, like this, half of a dozen of one vs. six of

the other. I may have gotten 'six' more physical ailments than my no

ailment ap sister, but I've also gotten six more, really more than

that, but for argument sake, six more blessings or positive things

out of them too. Life is a not a guarantee, I could have a perfectly

formed ap with no 'apparent' or visible inhibiting factors and then

when he is 12 or whenever develop Leukemia or get run over by a drunk

driver, and would I feel that was any less of a loss since he/she too

had not lived life to their fullest, of 70 years or so?

>I would accept gods choice for me and my wife.

- I would too.

>But I personally believe it is not fair to impose my own disability

and physical pains onto my lineage.

- I disagree and basicly, it would be the same reasons I said above

the God's choice one.

> That's totally a ppersonal opinion and I don't ipose that opon or

judge any who choses tp do so.

- I wouldn't impose my opinion, but I would express it as you did

here with us:).

> I would probably try to adopt a dwarf baby first.

- I would try to create our dwarf baby first, then adopt, if we

couldn't do so on our own.

- Also, I know this, that in the next 50 years, no, make it that 30,

20, prolly more like 10 even the surgical advances as well as ther

genetic ones for us will be profound as they ahve been even during my

lifetime. So, if my child has Achondroplasia and is in need of

surgery too, I am confident that he or she will even get better and

fare much better than what I had and did years ago:).

-Sometimes, I feel, it's like the glass half empty vs. is it half

full scenario or this more specifically. Are we-the lp community,

half empty because we don't have all the capabilites that our

averaged sized counterpart was fortunately blessed with and that's

what society tells you are and you have also come to accept as well

about yerself or are we just half full, we've been given the same but

not as much? That's how I see it:).

-I feel that science should not go about in eliminating the

differences in us, even if they say those differences are not desired

and/or considered 'defective' by the vast majority of us, rather keep

the differences and focus on 'eliminating' the individual physical

inhibiting factors within those very same differences. Why must it

be only two choices, dwarf child vs. non dwarf child? Why can't we

have a third choice? A dwarf child with no 'ailments'? If not, why

not?

-Maybe we, meaning 'us' again, need to 'eliminate' the gene in a few

scientists and in others who see 'dwarfism' as not an alternately

desired life form, instead of the defective 'who in their right mind

would want a dwarf anyway' mindset one they currently have. Because

it's obvious they would't want one of us, but they aren't everyone,

although they speak as if they are everyone, those that do, I

mean. And maybe that's where the problem lies too, the few speaking

for everyone... again:(.

silently not yers:P, luv, grady

[Guest guest]

's got it right...PGD has the ability to reduce a couple's chances of

having a double dominant baby from 25% to 2.5%--a dramatic improvement.

Yes it is true that a double dominant embryo would be discarded, but I think

that is preferable to terminating at 14-15 weeks of pregnancy.

But the main point is--most of these clinics would not give dwarfs the choice

between healthy dwarf embryos and average size embryos. They would make the

decision for you--allowing only average-size embryos to be implanted.

This did not come out in the article, but I was making the case that a healthy

dwarf embryo is just as valuable as an average-size one. The majority of clinics

don't think so.

It is possible to retrieve eggs, create embryos, undergo testing, and have only

healthy dwarf embryos left for implantation. The majority of PGD clinics would

NOT let a couple implant them. And that is outrageous.

Cara

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Ditto, as my post was in response to 's opinions, and that's

why my post was done in a line by line fashion, each of my comments

below one of his, not below to what the story itself may or may not

have said or implied. But, as we all know, this happens... a lot

actually. The original thread or thread title often ends up muchhh

different and off base of its original intent and/or meaning. Just

look where the CODA thread went, that was not even close to what the

real CODA is about:P, altho several of us took stabs as to what

it 'supposedly' meant.

~grady

My comments were never directed at the story, but I guess the story

is what got me started. I agree the facts about the clinics in the

3rd Paragraph are shocking and terribly wrong.

I also agree with paragraph 4 they are just as valuable, just as all

life is.

The topic is delicate, sensitive and email probably leaves out much

of the inflections we all have when expressing our opinions in

general, no less something as personal and sensitive as this topic.

--

[Guest guest]

Well, I finally got on the boat and got around to reading the article

that everyone is talking about. This is soooo interesting.

So, then my question is, would a person be considered a _bad person_

for _hoping_ for an LP baby if they themselves were an LP?

And would they be considered bad for also believing in natural

selection, but hoping for an LP baby?

I, for one, am glad that we're having this discussion. Better than

arguing over other things.

> >

> > > It is not my decision nor should it be the government's what a

> > Couple or a parent wants to do with an embryo they created.

> >

> > - I'm out on this one as I still feel their creation is that, a

> > living creation and not a piece of clay, say, where they can

just

> > smoosh and start all over again. But, this is my opinion and I

> > respect yers as well:).

> >

> > > Personally I would bring an achon embroy of my own creation

to term

> > if it was my only choice. However it was between an Achon

embtroyo

> > faced with the possiblilty of a life of physical and health

problems

> > or an averaged sized child with a far less chance of physical

> > challaanges I think I would hope for an average sized child.

> >

> > - I disagree, and this is just me speaking again, my opinion

too,

> > whether the lp embryo was faced with challenges or not, be them

> > physical or environmental, I still would go ahead as life

itself,

> > period, is not a guarantee. Because I could go ahead and have

that

> > ap, free of any physical 'inhibiting factors', for lack of a

better

> > descriptive way of saying it rather than using the

word 'defects',

> > because I don't see an lp embryo with them vs. an ap embryo

without

> > them as being something less. And maybe that's where out

differences

> > lie here in this discussion? It's where we see oursleves in the

> > overall picture of life, and not soo much of how we may see an

achon

> > embryo with physical inhibiting factors, perhaps? As I will be

one to

> > say that I've have had my fare share of those factors, but they

also

> > made me, in as much as they have diminished my physical

capablities

> > too. It's more or less, like this, half of a dozen of one vs.

six of

> > the other. I may have gotten 'six' more physical ailments than

my no

> > ailment ap sister, but I've also gotten six more, really more

than

> > that, but for argument sake, six more blessings or positive

things

> > out of them too. Life is a not a guarantee, I could have a

perfectly

> > formed ap with no 'apparent' or visible inhibiting factors and

then

> > when he is 12 or whenever develop Leukemia or get run over by a

drunk

> > driver, and would I feel that was any less of a loss since

he/she too

> > had not lived life to their fullest, of 70 years or so?

> >

> > >I would accept gods choice for me and my wife.

> >

> > - I would too.

> >

> > >But I personally believe it is not fair to impose my own

disability

> > and physical pains onto my lineage.

> >

> > - I disagree and basicly, it would be the same reasons I said

above

> > the God's choice one.

> >

> > > That's totally a ppersonal opinion and I don't ipose that

opon or

> > judge any who choses tp do so.

> >

> > - I wouldn't impose my opinion, but I would express it as you

did

> > here with us:).

> >

> > > I would probably try to adopt a dwarf baby first.

> >

> > - I would try to create our dwarf baby first, then adopt, if we

> > couldn't do so on our own.

> >

> > - Also, I know this, that in the next 50 years, no, make it

that 30,

> > 20, prolly more like 10 even the surgical advances as well as

ther

> > genetic ones for us will be profound as they ahve been even

during my

> > lifetime. So, if my child has Achondroplasia and is in need of

> > surgery too, I am confident that he or she will even get better

and

> > fare much better than what I had and did years ago:).

> >

> > -Sometimes, I feel, it's like the glass half empty vs. is it

half

> > full scenario or this more specifically. Are we-the lp

community,

> > half empty because we don't have all the capabilites that our

> > averaged sized counterpart was fortunately blessed with and

that's

> > what society tells you are and you have also come to accept as

well

> > about yerself or are we just half full, we've been given the

same but

> > not as much? That's how I see it:).

> >

> > -I feel that science should not go about in eliminating the

> > differences in us, even if they say those differences are not

desired

> > and/or considered 'defective' by the vast majority of us,

rather keep

> > the differences and focus on 'eliminating' the individual

physical

> > inhibiting factors within those very same differences. Why must

it

> > be only two choices, dwarf child vs. non dwarf child? Why can't

we

> > have a third choice? A dwarf child with no 'ailments'? If not,

why

> > not?

> >

> > -Maybe we, meaning 'us' again, need to 'eliminate' the gene in

a few

> > scientists and in others who see 'dwarfism' as not an

alternately

> > desired life form, instead of the defective 'who in their right

mind

> > would want a dwarf anyway' mindset one they currently have.

Because

> > it's obvious they would't want one of us, but they aren't

everyone,

> > although they speak as if they are everyone, those that do, I

> > mean. And maybe that's where the problem lies too, the few

speaking

> > for everyone... again:(.

> >

> > silently not yers:P, luv, grady

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting questions Irene.

Many people have a problem with dwarfs " choosing " a dwarf embryo, but

that is pretty much what we are doing any time we take the leap with

pregnancy...we are " choosing " to take a 50% chance that the child will

have dwarfism.

Once pregnant with a dwarf pregnancy, we also technically have the

" choice " to terminate...If they can tell us that dwarf embryos are

never an option, will it ever get to the point where they tell us that

a dwarf pregnancy of any kind is not an option?

Me personally, if it came down between a dwarf embryo and an

average-sized one, I'd take whichever had the best chance of

implanting in the uterus (embryos are graded to give you an idea of

that). But most clinics aren't letting us make that decision.

Cara

> > >

> > > > It is not my decision nor should it be the government's what a

> > > Couple or a parent wants to do with an embryo they created.

> > >

> > > - I'm out on this one as I still feel their creation is that, a

> > > living creation and not a piece of clay, say, where they can

> just

> > > smoosh and start all over again. But, this is my opinion and I

> > > respect yers as well:).

> > >

> > > > Personally I would bring an achon embroy of my own creation

> to term

> > > if it was my only choice. However it was between an Achon

> embtroyo

> > > faced with the possiblilty of a life of physical and health

> problems

> > > or an averaged sized child with a far less chance of physical

> > > challaanges I think I would hope for an average sized child.

> > >

> > > - I disagree, and this is just me speaking again, my opinion

> too,

> > > whether the lp embryo was faced with challenges or not, be them

> > > physical or environmental, I still would go ahead as life

> itself,

> > > period, is not a guarantee. Because I could go ahead and have

> that

> > > ap, free of any physical 'inhibiting factors', for lack of a

> better

> > > descriptive way of saying it rather than using the

> word 'defects',

> > > because I don't see an lp embryo with them vs. an ap embryo

> without

> > > them as being something less. And maybe that's where out

> differences

> > > lie here in this discussion? It's where we see oursleves in the

> > > overall picture of life, and not soo much of how we may see an

> achon

> > > embryo with physical inhibiting factors, perhaps? As I will be

> one to

> > > say that I've have had my fare share of those factors, but they

> also

> > > made me, in as much as they have diminished my physical

> capablities

> > > too. It's more or less, like this, half of a dozen of one vs.

> six of

> > > the other. I may have gotten 'six' more physical ailments than

> my no

> > > ailment ap sister, but I've also gotten six more, really more

> than

> > > that, but for argument sake, six more blessings or positive

> things

> > > out of them too. Life is a not a guarantee, I could have a

> perfectly

> > > formed ap with no 'apparent' or visible inhibiting factors and

> then

> > > when he is 12 or whenever develop Leukemia or get run over by a

> drunk

> > > driver, and would I feel that was any less of a loss since

> he/she too

> > > had not lived life to their fullest, of 70 years or so?

> > >

> > > >I would accept gods choice for me and my wife.

> > >

> > > - I would too.

> > >

> > > >But I personally believe it is not fair to impose my own

> disability

> > > and physical pains onto my lineage.

> > >

> > > - I disagree and basicly, it would be the same reasons I said

> above

> > > the God's choice one.

> > >

> > > > That's totally a ppersonal opinion and I don't ipose that

> opon or

> > > judge any who choses tp do so.

> > >

> > > - I wouldn't impose my opinion, but I would express it as you

> did

> > > here with us:).

> > >

> > > > I would probably try to adopt a dwarf baby first.

> > >

> > > - I would try to create our dwarf baby first, then adopt, if we

> > > couldn't do so on our own.

> > >

> > > - Also, I know this, that in the next 50 years, no, make it

> that 30,

> > > 20, prolly more like 10 even the surgical advances as well as

> ther

> > > genetic ones for us will be profound as they ahve been even

> during my

> > > lifetime. So, if my child has Achondroplasia and is in need of

> > > surgery too, I am confident that he or she will even get better

> and

> > > fare much better than what I had and did years ago:).

> > >

> > > -Sometimes, I feel, it's like the glass half empty vs. is it

> half

> > > full scenario or this more specifically. Are we-the lp

> community,

> > > half empty because we don't have all the capabilites that our

> > > averaged sized counterpart was fortunately blessed with and

> that's

> > > what society tells you are and you have also come to accept as

> well

> > > about yerself or are we just half full, we've been given the

> same but

> > > not as much? That's how I see it:).

> > >

> > > -I feel that science should not go about in eliminating the

> > > differences in us, even if they say those differences are not

> desired

> > > and/or considered 'defective' by the vast majority of us,

> rather keep

> > > the differences and focus on 'eliminating' the individual

> physical

> > > inhibiting factors within those very same differences. Why must

> it

> > > be only two choices, dwarf child vs. non dwarf child? Why can't

> we

> > > have a third choice? A dwarf child with no 'ailments'? If not,

> why

> > > not?

> > >

> > > -Maybe we, meaning 'us' again, need to 'eliminate' the gene in

> a few

> > > scientists and in others who see 'dwarfism' as not an

> alternately

> > > desired life form, instead of the defective 'who in their right

> mind

> > > would want a dwarf anyway' mindset one they currently have.

> Because

> > > it's obvious they would't want one of us, but they aren't

> everyone,

> > > although they speak as if they are everyone, those that do, I

> > > mean. And maybe that's where the problem lies too, the few

> speaking

> > > for everyone... again:(.

> > >

> > > silently not yers:P, luv, grady

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I don't understand, and this is only a question, how this went

from, " Would a person be considered a bad person for 'hoping' for an

LP baby if they themselves were an LP, " to, " Many people have a

problem with dwarfs 'choosing' a dwarf embryo? " Because to

me, 'hoping' and 'choosing' are 2 different things.

Now, this is 'my spin' on the discussion, my opinions 'only', so

pleeeeeze don't take it personal for those that might.

I believe that as lps, as soon we 'only' choose the dwarf embryo to

go onto maturation, for lack of a better word, we or those lps who do

that will become no better than those aps who 'only' choose the ap or

non-dwarf embryo to go on. And me, meaning 'just me' and maybe there

are others who feel the same as I do, perhaps, but I am and those

like me are wishing and hoping, but more like praying and working,

through education (school awareness programs, newspaper articles,

even tv shows, look at the positiveness I believe the Roloff show has

accomplished alone, and through the personal example of those lp's

within our group and out that have made a difference in where they

live or in advocacy) that both choices are awesome and both should be

chosen:). If not, why not? It's not either/or, or us/them, I feel.

I just can't see how a few of us, again no personalness involved

towards any in my words here, how a few of us lp's will say, " I'm for

equality and 'all' inclusion in the LPA, and I will fight for that

till the bitter end! " haha But then those same that say that, will

only will date lps, complain when other lps who do date aps will want

those aps included (question: has the ap segment of our group, eg.

the sisters and brothers, mothers and fathers, spouses and gf/bf's,

been asked to join our art group yet, just wondering?) I know some

will say, yeah, but Grady, you don't understand, the art group is for

those lps who know what it's like to be one, get it?! So how could

they know how possibly know hwo we feel? And Grady, once you ask them

to join, you might as well say goodbye to our small yet distinctive

art group, as it will no longer be 'us.':*( And to that, I say 'us'

is not just 'we alone' but them too:), they are 'us' too;).

And 'they' too know how we feel:).

So, hoping, yeah, that's awesome, not bad, I feel. Choosing, hey,

it's yer choice, yer body, but then if you do do that I will consider

you as being equal with those same aps who only chose themselves,

those who you say never give us a chance, those who you

say 'discriminate' again us 'intentionally' because of our dwarfism

and now becuase of our embryo, so I will too, of them. Cuz if you

can't beat them, I might as well join them type of attitude:(.

Now, I know, a few will cry and say, " Ohhhhh, Grady is picking on us

again, but in all actuality I'm just expressing my opinions like

everyone else. I'm sorry, if I think different, but that's me and

come to think of it, the last time I look at my birth certificate, my

name was on it and not theirs:P.

luv y'all, grady;)

PS-Just a secondary thought, but when I roam the web to find anything

on us, 99 times out of hundred, most of the ap's are allowing their

dwarf embryos and fetuses to go on. Sure, they may be shocked,

dismayed, alarmed and scared, but the last time I checked those types

of feelings we are also real human emotions. Thus, if if we join the

very few aps who are selectively eliminating us when they see that

possibility of us 'occuring' within them, and then we, or more like

just the few of us, then do that too, because Grady, we are only

doing it for this reason only... because wouldn't you want a baby

just like yerself, you adorable hunk of a dwarf man you. haha Ya

know, one you 'personally' can relate to, because you are one

yerself. All I can say to it is this, whatever I make, tall or small,

hey, if it 'came from me' to begin with, won't be a part of me, no

matter if they are and small? And from that alone, not their outward

appearance I will relate to them as their dad:). Because the day I

selectively only chose to have those who are exactly like me on the

outside, ya know, physically, is the day I become an outward

appearance based man rather than what is in the inside of that baby

based 'father', even if that baby outgrows me by 3 feet and I'm

4'6 " ! I am who I am from the inside out and it's my hope that my

baby mirrors me that way and not in my appearance or from the outside

in, whatver that suppose to be or mean? Now, if he is a dwarf, like

me, so be it too, but I won't, for one, choose 'only' that.

Remember that saying, how does it go? " Anyone can make a baby, but

not everyone can be a father. " Ya know, stay and love that child no

matter what. Perhaps, we should have this one now for us, " Anyone can

be a dwarf, h*ck, I even played one on TV, haha, but not everyone

again can be a father. " Because fatherhood surpasses and trumps even

dwarfism in my mind:).

> >

> > Well, I finally got on the boat and got around to reading the

article

> > that everyone is talking about. This is soooo interesting.

> >

> > So, then my question is, would a person be considered a _bad

person_

> > for _hoping_ for an LP baby if they themselves were an LP?

> >

> > And would they be considered bad for also believing in natural

> > selection, but hoping for an LP baby?

> >

> > I, for one, am glad that we're having this discussion. Better

than

> > arguing over other things.

[Guest guest]

This is a very complicated topic. I have never ascribed to the idea of

dwarfs " choosing " dwarf embryos deliberately over average-size ones

(though the articles have).

The articles have missed the main point:

That is, if any dwarfs seek PGD/IVF either to avoid double dominance,

or for fertility issues, dwarf kids will not be born, because the

clinics won't allow it...whether the dwarf parents would choose a

dwarf kid or not. Other people are making the decision for us.

Yes, the average-size community is by and large accepting of dwarf

children born to them. But this topic is about dwarfs having

dwarfs--we have the ability to do it " naturally " though at great risk.

We should also have the *possibility* through IVF as well.

Cara

> > >

> > > Well, I finally got on the boat and got around to reading the

> article

> > > that everyone is talking about. This is soooo interesting.

> > >

> > > So, then my question is, would a person be considered a _bad

> person_

> > > for _hoping_ for an LP baby if they themselves were an LP?

> > >

> > > And would they be considered bad for also believing in natural

> > > selection, but hoping for an LP baby?

> > >

> > > I, for one, am glad that we're having this discussion. Better

> than

> > > arguing over other things.

>

[Guest guest]

As far as I know, most clinics allow multiple embryos, at least 2 and

sometimes 3...It seems to me that the concept of trying to implant 4+

is losing favor, for the reasons you mentioned, but I'm not positive

about that.

Cara

>

> Forgive me if this was already mentioned, but do the clinics that

prohibit implanting an embryo with dwarfism allow the implantation of

multiple embryos - meaning that the mother may have higher pregnancies

risks and the possibility of mental and/or physical disabilities in

the child(ren)?

>

> Alyce

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I just want to say that I've enjoyed this discussion a lot:).

However, if anyone writes me privately to say that I slammed them by

expressing the opinions 'I' personally hold as true, which have nothing to

do with them, it never did actually, then I am going to Hopkins

University Hospital's genetic dept and asking them to remove all my dwarf

producing semen, so that 'only' ap babies can be born or that 'only' ap

embryos can be implanted! hahahaha;)

Just kidding everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!, luv, grady

PS-Let's have an ap vs. lp baby war! Bring it on! lol Any takers? hehe

[Guest guest]

,

The reality is that for a dwarf couple looking to do IVF, it is highly

doubtful that any clinic would allow them to do it without testing for

double dominance because the risk is so high...at least today...maybe

years ago when the PGD testing wasn't available.

I think it's great that it sounds like the majority of dwarfs would

accept either type of child (I would too!)...but the whole point is

that the clinics are saying that via PGD/IVF the only option for us is

an average-size child...and that's not right!

The trend is that more and more people (including dwarfs) are seeking

help via IVF...and if dwarfs can't procreate dwarfs through this

method, then we really are on our way to being extinct.

Cara

>

> Hello all,

>

> I understand that people may need invetro because that

> is the only way they can have children. However maybe

> the embryos should be implanted the way they are

> without knowing if they have any issues and see what

> you get, (LIKE IN NATURE). I would not want to know

> if that embryo had dwarfism or not. I know double

> dominance is devistating or really I can't know how

> much but wouldn't having a day or even a minute of

> life with the baby be worth more than never having it?

> I am against selection at all costs and I would not

> want to know. As I've said previously I'd love to have

> an lp baby like myself but I'd be just as happy to

> have an average height baby as well.

>

> -

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>