squatting

November 20, 2000

Interesting solution, but does not really address the problem. I'm also not

sure that force is the problem as much as torque. During the squat, the

greatest shear force is exerted on the knee at the point where the lifter

changes direction.

To minimize the torque on the knee, it would seem that

the objective would be to minimize the horizontal distance between the knee

and the hip joint where this directional change occurs. If a lifter squats

to parallel only, they are maximizing this horizontal distance(or the length

of the lever) and thus maximazing the torque on the knee. If they go below

parallel they reduce this horizontal distance thus reducing the torque on

the knee. So it seems to me that the solution to the problem mentioned, in

the original post, is to squat below parallel.

Ayars

Sandhills Academy of Gymnastics

P.O. Box 3789

Pinehurst NC 28274

jayars35@...

--------------------

" Technique 5: Squats

Problem: In a deep squat, when the thighs are parallel to the floor or

lower, there is an excessive amount of shear load on the knee in a position

in which the articular cartilage is thinnest. Descending to this position

is done by power lifters who must meet technical specifications during

competition, but they also place themselves at risk of cartilage damage.

Solution: Weight lifters should avoid deep squats and extremes of

hyperflexion and hyperextension, and they should maintain lumbar spine

stability during squat lifts.

May 22, 2001

First off, thank you all for the Tate references.

They have certainly pointed out at least 2 things I am missing.

And Dr Siff pointed out that I need to be more

specific in the end goal - for my needs (a variety of

martial arts), a more Olympic style of squatting would

be in order. If anyone has a similar link to such a

handy article as Tate's but on OL type of squatting, I

would be most grateful.

And yes, a copy of 'Supertraining' is next on my

purchase list...

Thanks again and I will report back soon.

Vince Brown

Oakland, Ca

-----------

Mel Siff wrote:

Several list members have suggested that anyone interested in learning some of

the

details of squatting should refer to Dave Tate's thorough articles at:

Note well that these articles are intended primarily for the powerlifter, but

they contain very useful hints on squatting in general. If you have to

execute full squats for Olympic weightlifting, certain sport specific

needs or personal preference, then you have to modify several aspects of that

powerlifting information. For example, any advice about keeping the shins

vertical, avoiding movement of the knees beyond the toes or angle of the

torso has to be changed accordingly - for one thing, if you wish to do

full overhead squats, it is impossible to keep the knees behind the toes and

the shins vertical. For another thing, the use of a widesumo stance is useless

and very restrictive for developing explosive and ballistic power from the

low squat position. If anyone doubts this, try a vertical jump test from a low

starting position with feet as wide apart as in a Sumo stance.

In short, before advocating any method of squatting, you have to fully

understand your goals, needs and wants, since one size certainly does not fit

all. "

February 26, 2005

& Leigh

I am almost 8 months post op right THR revision. The other hip is a

little over 7 years. If I did not squat I would never be able to

pick up anything or get up off the floor! It takes strong thigh

muscle to get back up without holding on, but it can be done. You

don't break any " rules " as long as you keep you knees flared outward.

From a not too busy, just too lazy to post, squatter!

Sue

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > I started 'sqautting' or crouching down with my bum resting on my

> > heals at arround 9 weeks and find it perfectly comfortable now at

4

> > and a half months as long as there is something around to hold

onto

> > for balance. Its a bit scary whenever you try a new move but I've

> > been told its perfectly safe to do and the hips are not really at

> an

> > extreme angle when you do it. I find it kinder to the back than

any

> > other type of bending and safer than taking the leg out behind as

> > I've tripped a few people up with that move!

> >

> > Good luck,

> >

> > Leigh

>

> Thank you Leigh. I needed to hear someone else was doing it

> safely. I will try it this week. Surpriseingly, you were the only

> one that responded that you use that move. I wonder if the

> other " squatters " are just too busy, or if few hippies do that.

> I too have tripped a few people with the leg out behind me move.

>

February 26, 2005

DI prefer getting down on one knee instead of

squatting. I find it easier to return to standing

when one knee is on the floor instead of squatting.

RUTH

--- Sue <tubbs8695@...> wrote:

>

> & Leigh

>

> I am almost 8 months post op right THR revision.

> The other hip is a

> little over 7 years. If I did not squat I would

> never be able to

> pick up anything or get up off the floor! It takes

> strong thigh

> muscle to get back up without holding on, but it can

> be done. You

> don't break any " rules " as long as you keep you

> knees flared outward.

>

> From a not too busy, just too lazy to post,

> squatter!

>

> Sue

>

> > >

> > > Hi ,

> > >

> > > I started 'sqautting' or crouching down with my

> bum resting on my

> > > heals at arround 9 weeks and find it perfectly

> comfortable now at

> 4

> > > and a half months as long as there is something

> around to hold

> onto

> > > for balance. Its a bit scary whenever you try a

> new move but I've

> > > been told its perfectly safe to do and the hips

> are not really at

> > an

> > > extreme angle when you do it. I find it kinder

> to the back than

> any

> > > other type of bending and safer than taking the

> leg out behind as

> > > I've tripped a few people up with that move!

> > >

> > > Good luck,

> > >

> > > Leigh

> >

> > Thank you Leigh. I needed to hear someone

> else was doing it

> > safely. I will try it this week. Surpriseingly,

> you were the only

> > one that responded that you use that move. I

> wonder if the

> > other " squatters " are just too busy, or if few

> hippies do that.

> > I too have tripped a few people with the leg out

> behind me move.

> >

>

__________________________________________________

July 12, 2010

From my observations of the cross fitters (casually) in our gyms, I've seen

primarily the tight, athletic style squat. I think that's the main one they're

teaching overall? Most do not appear to have spotters or sufficient

form/confidence to drop it down....

I've also seen a large number of 1/2 and 1/3 range squats from their people -

and again, there's a hesitance to drop the bottom down and get into the hole and

up.

I think an examination of the archives might help on your question with regard

to squat styles and correction in the squat - i know Mel had some postings about

how to get someone deep - it can be everything from flexibility to position or

mental blocks too by the way - I wouldn't just think it was mechanical.

Shoes can play a role, as can the turn of a foot out or other aids like bar

position or heels put into place too.

I'd take a look at the femur length vs the calf, the length of torso, the

strength of the muscles and tight/inflexible points in all of this, and then

experiment with a broomstick or bare bar. It's not just the width of stance,

there's a lot more to it.

the Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT/RMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Squatting

Hi All-

A quick question on squatting.

I have had several patients recently (some due to crossfit), that have desired

the ability to do a deep squat, but are unable to get their rear-end below their

knees. When examining them, although there is some tightness to the gluts, etc,

I think it has more to do with the shape of the hip joints. Does this sound

right, and if so, what specific anatomical properties of the hip joint would not

allow a full squat? Actually, interstingly, this one patient can squat fully if

his legs are together, but as soon as he spreads the distance between his feet,

he loses that ability. I recall McGill talking about patients who needed a wider

base in order to squat, but not the opposite. Any ideas?

Thanks.

Dr. Brett M. Carr

-Clinical Nutritionist

-Certified Chiropractic Sports Physician

-Adjunct Assistant Professor, University of Bridgeport,

College of Chiropractic and Nutrition Institute

-Chiropractic Consultant, Bridgeport Sound Tigers Pro Hockey

-Chiropractic Consultant Bridgeport Bluefish Baseball

ph 203-256-9971 www.drbrettcarr.com

July 13, 2010

Hi,

In my (limited) experience, the goblet squat is an excellent exercise to teach

proper technique, find the right distance between the feet, give them the

confidence to sit back and adress any problems they might have...

The goblet squat is considered by many to be a teaching exercise for the

inexperienced, but I use it in my warm up routine every time because it also

helps you to find the right groove.

Regards,

Johan Bastiaansen

Hasselt Belgium

>

> Hi All-

> A quick question on squatting.

>

> I have had several patients recently (some due to crossfit), that have

desired the ability to do a deep squat, but are unable to get their rear-end

below their knees. When examining them, although there is some tightness to the

gluts, etc, I think it has more to do with the shape of the hip joints. Does

this sound right, and if so, what specific anatomical properties of the hip

joint would not allow a full squat? Actually, interstingly, this one patient can

squat fully if his legs are together, but as soon as he spreads the distance

between his feet, he loses that ability. I recall McGill talking about patients

who needed a wider base in order to squat, but not the opposite. Any ideas?

>

> Thanks.

>

> Dr. Brett M. Carr

> -Clinical Nutritionist

> -Certified Chiropractic Sports Physician

> -Adjunct Assistant Professor, University of Bridgeport,

> College of Chiropractic and Nutrition Institute

> -Chiropractic Consultant, Bridgeport Sound Tigers Pro Hockey

> -Chiropractic Consultant Bridgeport Bluefish Baseball

> ph 203-256-9971 www.drbrettcarr.com

>

July 13, 2010

Those close stance bodybuilding squats are hard for me to do. I can lift a lot

more weight with a powerlifting style squat.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

Re: Squatting

From my observations of the cross fitters (casually) in our gyms, I've seen

rimarily the tight, athletic style squat. I think that's the main one they're

eaching overall? Most do not appear to have spotters or sufficient

orm/confidence to drop it down....

've also seen a large number of 1/2 and 1/3 range squats from their people -

nd again, there's a hesitance to drop the bottom down and get into the hole and

p.

think an examination of the archives might help on your question with regard

o squat styles and correction in the squat - i know Mel had some postings about

ow to get someone deep - it can be everything from flexibility to position or

ental blocks too by the way - I wouldn't just think it was mechanical.

hoes can play a role, as can the turn of a foot out or other aids like bar

osition or heels put into place too.

'd take a look at the femur length vs the calf, the length of torso, the

trength of the muscles and tight/inflexible points in all of this, and then

xperiment with a broomstick or bare bar. It's not just the width of stance,

here's a lot more to it.

============================

July 13, 2010

What you are descibing is a variation of the box squatting exercise. Box squats

help increase rom and teach beginners how to squat.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

Dr. Brett M. Carr,

I used to have this problem, im talking bad, i barely could hit parallel with

ust the bar on my back , and i though i was amazing for 1/4 squatting 405 at

50. Well sad story follows, my ego was so inflated i went to compete at a

ilitary powerlifting competition and got DQ'd. One of the guys thier (also my

CO, also competes in strong man events), took me under his wing for a while,

nd i had the same problem with squating. It hurt my hips, i felt unbalanced,

ut i couldnt squat with my feet any where closer then 1 foot apart, i basically

had to sumo squat. So he took the bar and weights away.

eres how he fixed my squat... I am a really short guy, so he could'nt use a

tandard bench, so we picked up some kiddy step stools from local yard sales

anging from 16inches all the way down to 6 inches.(we were lucky to find them

ll but one short step stool approx 6-8 inches will help along or a stepp up box

or the pilates step up things, that way you can continually lower the hight by

emoving one from the stack, we learned this the hard way). At first he had me

o 50 reps with my feet about shoulder with apart, sitting with me but back into

the chair. We started at the 16 stool, and after 50 reps went down to the 14inch

stool then another 50 reps down to 12 inch, 50 reps, then 10 inch, 50 reps, then

8 inch, and finally 50 reps to 6 inch. this was 3 times a week for one week (all

off days, its like a horrible burning cardio workout). eventually we added the

ar, once i got form down quick and fast for 25 reps, then 3 seconds down and

xplosive up for 25 reps, we started adding weight and taking away stepping

tools. I then started with 135ibs for 15 reps slowly down to the 12 inch stool

or 5 sets then the 6 inch stool for same reps and 5 sets. Then 225 the next leg

workout for 12 reps down to the 12 inch then down to the 6 inch both for 5 sets.

Now im working my way back up to 405. For each leg workout i add 5 pounds to my

quat and do 3 sets of 5 at the iinch point to get used to handling the little

xtra weight and once it becomes no problem i go to the 6 inch.

Im currently at 365, down to 6 inches, but i cant only do two sets of 5 the

hird set im still struggling, its a good way to increase strength and ROM.

Pretty much tell them to sit back with thier behind, instead of just bending at

he knees. The problem with bending at the knees, is it puts plenty of stress on

the knee especially because when you focus on bending at the knees they usually

ass past the toes, which puts all the load on the quad and knee. tell em to sit

down like ur sitting in a chair.

========================

July 15, 2010