Re: Re: LDN: Possibility of Pharma co. research

[Guest guest]

Alan- First, I highly approve of off label use of approved drugs, it is

critcal that competent docs have that ability in order to treat effectively

in many complicated disease states. Just because a drug is approved for a

certain indication does not mean it won't work well for others, as with LDN

in this case, it may just mean a company can't afford the trials necessary

to get the other indications. Gotta go for now but one big red flag for me

with LDN and Dr. Bihari is simply this, if he has all of this experience and

his patients are doing so well, why hasn't he had this published in a

professional journal, you don't need a formal study to get published. Well

documented retrospective clinical data from medical practices is published

all the time, he seems to have a ton of it, key phrase here is " seems to " .

And a phone consult with him is $500, excuse me, $500, since when. Talk

about taking advantage of the ill.

jk

----- Original Message -----

From: " alanms1579 " <alanms@...>

<low dose naltrexone >

Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 12:14 PM

Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Re: LDN: Possibility of Pharma co. research

> > I am a 13+ year pharmaceutical industry guy who has also fought MS

> > for the past 10+ years. I just learned about LDN a week ago and

> > start my first dose (4.5) tomorrow night after I get the

> shipment.

>

>

> Most interesting to read your post. Although I was just dx with MS

> in Feb., and have been on 4.5mg LDN for about 80 days now, I went

> back many months reading old posts. I don't recall any other posts

> from anyone in the pharma industry. No doubt we all fall prey to

> manipulation by the media, and certainly the whirl of ever spinning

> political agendas, but don't judge many of those here too harshly.

> They may have been as disappointed as I was with how false my

> perception of modern medicine was, and with the attitude of some of

> the Doctors that they have seen.

>

> Having said this, I am sure most here would like to know how you can

> help with seeing Clinical Trials for LDN (and MS to start). Perhaps

> you could lay out a couple of scenarios (given your expertise) as to

> how best one could see LDN become an " approved " treatment for MS,

> and how best we as a group can help. On a personal note, I'd like to

> hear your thoughts on Off Label prescription drug use (given how

> rampant it is - including LDN).

>

> We are all individuals here with differing opinions, but with common

> challenges and common goals. Some end up here (using LDN) after

> trying almost everything else. Others, like me, read all about CRAB

> drugs and decided they were not the best choice. Either way, we

> would all like to be using LDN in the safest and most effective way

> possible. If you read back you'll note that dosage, fillers, willing

> Doctors, drug interations and several other issues pop up regularly.

> Another thing that pops up regularlry is testimonials! Clearly there

> is a legitimate need here.

>

> If you can help, I believe we would all like to hear your thoughts.

>

> Best

> Alan

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You stated in an earlier post that you are in the pharma industry. $12,000 - $15,000 per year for CRABS, and a $500 office bill causes you to say Dr. Bihari must be a "taking advantage of the ill"??? This is a New York neurologist - neuros in Portlamd, Oregon bill the insurance company $400 for a 30 minute consult (usually more like 15 minutes, actually), so I hardly think $500 for the amount of time Dr. Bihari spends can be construed as "taking advantage", unless every doctor falls into that category.

If you know that all you want is a prescription for LDN, there are other doctors who are less expensive, as previously noted on this group.

If we are going to cast stones toward those "taking advantage", maybe the "red flag" should go up in the direction of CRABS - a (maximum) benefit of a 30% reduction in number of exacerbations (as compared to those doing absolutely nothing) for $12,000 per year is a good deal?

Can you reaslly sell that as the best alternative with a straight face???

Portland, Oregon

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:19:34 -0400 "koblitz" <jk@...> writes:

Alan- First, I highly approve of off label use of approved drugs, it iscritcal that competent docs have that ability in order to treat effectivelyin many complicated disease states. Just because a drug is approved for acertain indication does not mean it won't work well for others, as with LDNin this case, it may just mean a company can't afford the trials necessaryto get the other indications. Gotta go for now but one big red flag for mewith LDN and Dr. Bihari is simply this, if he has all of this experience andhis patients are doing so well, why hasn't he had this published in aprofessional journal, you don't need a formal study to get published. Welldocumented retrospective clinical data from medical practices is publishedall the time, he seems to have a ton of it, key phrase here is "seems to".And a phone consult with him is $500, excuse me, $500, since when. Talkabout taking advantage of the ill.

[Guest guest]

It is very interesting to me that most people who replied to my 2 posts focused their comments on my $500 point and everything else was basically ignored. That point was not at all the context or reason for my posts. Are there any other thoughts on the main points and real reason for my posts. I just learned aboout LDN, as stated, and started my first dose Monday night, so like all of you I'm hoping for the best for all of us.

----- Original Message -----

From: KELLY E COBURN

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 4:02 AM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: LDN: Possibility of Pharma co. research

You stated in an earlier post that you are in the pharma industry. $12,000 - $15,000 per year for CRABS, and a $500 office bill causes you to say Dr. Bihari must be a "taking advantage of the ill"??? This is a New York neurologist - neuros in Portlamd, Oregon bill the insurance company $400 for a 30 minute consult (usually more like 15 minutes, actually), so I hardly think $500 for the amount of time Dr. Bihari spends can be construed as "taking advantage", unless every doctor falls into that category.

If you know that all you want is a prescription for LDN, there are other doctors who are less expensive, as previously noted on this group.

If we are going to cast stones toward those "taking advantage", maybe the "red flag" should go up in the direction of CRABS - a (maximum) benefit of a 30% reduction in number of exacerbations (as compared to those doing absolutely nothing) for $12,000 per year is a good deal?

Can you reaslly sell that as the best alternative with a straight face???

Portland, Oregon

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:19:34 -0400 "koblitz" <jk@...> writes:

Alan- First, I highly approve of off label use of approved drugs, it iscritcal that competent docs have that ability in order to treat effectivelyin many complicated disease states. Just because a drug is approved for acertain indication does not mean it won't work well for others, as with LDNin this case, it may just mean a company can't afford the trials necessaryto get the other indications. Gotta go for now but one big red flag for mewith LDN and Dr. Bihari is simply this, if he has all of this experience andhis patients are doing so well, why hasn't he had this published in aprofessional journal, you don't need a formal study to get published. Welldocumented retrospective clinical data from medical practices is publishedall the time, he seems to have a ton of it, key phrase here is "seems to".And a phone consult with him is $500, excuse me, $500, since when. Talkabout taking advantage of the ill.

[Guest guest]

,

Think this one through, do the math! You state that $12,000-15,000 is not a good deal for the CRABS. I know it cost over 800 million to bring each of those products to market, before the first script was written.There are about 500,000 of us with this terrible disease and we all want a cure. But even if all of us took one of them the companies individually still have trouble making money on this kind of a product, they also put expensive ongoing support programs and other things in place to help insure success for the patients and product. They take a huge risk for us and themselves believe it or not. Be careful what you ask for there are far easier disease states to develop drugs for with far less risk and greater potential.

----- Original Message -----

From: koblitz

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:28 AM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: LDN: Possibility of Pharma co. research

It is very interesting to me that most people who replied to my 2 posts focused their comments on my $500 point and everything else was basically ignored. That point was not at all the context or reason for my posts. Are there any other thoughts on the main points and real reason for my posts. I just learned aboout LDN, as stated, and started my first dose Monday night, so like all of you I'm hoping for the best for all of us.

----- Original Message -----

From: KELLY E COBURN

low dose naltrexone

Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 4:02 AM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Re: LDN: Possibility of Pharma co. research

You stated in an earlier post that you are in the pharma industry. $12,000 - $15,000 per year for CRABS, and a $500 office bill causes you to say Dr. Bihari must be a "taking advantage of the ill"??? This is a New York neurologist - neuros in Portlamd, Oregon bill the insurance company $400 for a 30 minute consult (usually more like 15 minutes, actually), so I hardly think $500 for the amount of time Dr. Bihari spends can be construed as "taking advantage", unless every doctor falls into that category.

If you know that all you want is a prescription for LDN, there are other doctors who are less expensive, as previously noted on this group.

If we are going to cast stones toward those "taking advantage", maybe the "red flag" should go up in the direction of CRABS - a (maximum) benefit of a 30% reduction in number of exacerbations (as compared to those doing absolutely nothing) for $12,000 per year is a good deal?

Can you reaslly sell that as the best alternative with a straight face???

Portland, Oregon

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:19:34 -0400 "koblitz" <jk@...> writes:

Alan- First, I highly approve of off label use of approved drugs, it iscritcal that competent docs have that ability in order to treat effectivelyin many complicated disease states. Just because a drug is approved for acertain indication does not mean it won't work well for others, as with LDNin this case, it may just mean a company can't afford the trials necessaryto get the other indications. Gotta go for now but one big red flag for mewith LDN and Dr. Bihari is simply this, if he has all of this experience andhis patients are doing so well, why hasn't he had this published in aprofessional journal, you don't need a formal study to get published. Welldocumented retrospective clinical data from medical practices is publishedall the time, he seems to have a ton of it, key phrase here is "seems to".And a phone consult with him is $500, excuse me, $500, since when. Talkabout taking advantage of the ill.