Guest guest Posted May 26, 2000 Report Share Posted May 26, 2000 Very well put. Thanks for that Luke. --- luke@... wrote: > I have had a long history of participating in > spiritual disciplines. > I was in several different monasteries for a total > of about 5 years. > I have studied and practiced with teachers and > masters from India, > Tibet, Japan, and America. I am still actively > involved with a > monastery I helped to build to the extent that my > health permits. I > make a distinction between the spirituality that > most of us practice > and the kind of committed, disciplined practice done > by many of the > people I hang out with. > > So I was not exactly a stranger to the area of > spirituality when I > got sick 7 years ago. I have to say, that despite > the enormous > benefit I received as a result of all the work I > did, the REAL > spiritual work in my life did not begin until God > came in and wiped > out my entire life. When you have considered > yourself on the > spiritual path, and you lose absolutely everything > that has > constituted your life, it's really the time when the > rubber meets the > road, so to speak. > > I failed the test miserably of course, railed and > cursed God, my > fate, Karma, etc. I never signed up for THIS! I > have never been a > believer in what I call the " Ozzie and Harriet " > school of > spirituality. A kind of New Age interpretation > where God is > Wonderful and only does Wonderful things and the > closer you get to > God, the more Wonderful life becomes. An unbiased > view of human life > reveals no shortage of suffering, I just never > figured I would > participate on quite such a massive scale. > > There is a saying among the monks and nuns I know. > " Everybody wants > to get into Heaven. Nobody wants to pay the price > of admission. " > Even among this " hard core " class of spiritual > aspirants, not > everyone likes to acknowledge the intimate link > between suffering and > spiritual growth. Carolyn Myss speaks in her books > about the > experience Saint of the Cross referred to as > the " Dark Night of > the Soul " . Although it is not true for everybody, a > good case of CFS > can certainly be experienced that way. > > It is characterized by a period of devastating loss, > a sense of > alienation from or abandonment by God, and it can > last for years. > During this time of suffering, much of what we have > come to know > about life is called into question, our priorities > change, and many > aspects of our " Self " are dismantled. This is > almost never a fully > conscious process, mostly we are aware of our own > suffering and > trying to cope day to day. It is only after some > years, and > hopefully after the lifting of some of the brainfog, > that we begin to > see the changes brought about by this extended > period of intense > suffering. > > For myself, I notice I am simply not the same person > I was 7 years > ago. While my ability to function in the world is > still severely > limited, my experience of life is one of enormous > freedom. While I > devote much of my time and energy to getting my body > functional > again, the thing that really lights me up in life is > helping other > people. A certain arrogance, impatience and drive > have been replaced > by compassion, a kind of softness, and even a little > humility. > > I believe that there are some parts of our lives > that we choose > before we come into this world. I would NEVER have > consciously > chosen to have gone through the experience of CFS, > but I cannot deny > that I have been transformed at the deepest level in > a very positive, > even " spiritual " way by having gone through it. > > End of Sermon. If you want to be able to do > something tangible and > even " miraculous " about your suffering, I > wholeheartedly recommend a > healing workshop with a man named Ron Roth. > http://www.ronroth.com/ > I have been around enough saints and masters to be > able to recognise > a gifted healer when I see one. I have seen him 4 > or 5 times over > the years, spent about $600 for the workshops, and > received more > tangible improvement than I have gotten from $20,000 > in docs, meds, > supplements and you name it. The guy is quite > simply amazing. He is > also pals with Carolyn Myss and is the only healer > to receive > her " endorsement " . > > By the way,there are no prerequisites for getting > healed. You don't > need to believe in God, spirituality, healing, have > faith, or > anything else. This is not some sort of Holy Roller > " Accept Jesus > and be Healed " phenomenon either. He is a man with > a truely amazing > gift. > > It does require money however. The last time I saw > him, a woman went > with me who was convinced that a real " spiritual " > person does not > charge money for his/her work. I'm still not sure > what made her > decide to come, desperation perhaps, but she is > clearly less > depressed, fragile and volitile than before she > went. I am convinced > that the kind of healing he does is not available > anywhere, at any > price, and believe me, I have looked. > > I wish you all the best in your ongoing journey, > however you conceive > of it. Maybe there is a silver lining to this lousy > mess of a > disease after all. > > Luke > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Old school buds here: > 1/4057/4/_/531724/_/959383223/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal > experiences with each other, not to give medical > advice. If you are interested in any treatment > discussed here, please consult your doctor. > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2000 Report Share Posted May 26, 2000 In a message dated 00-05-26 19:21:08 EDT, Luke wrote: << I have had a long history of participating in spiritual disciplines. I was in several different monasteries for a total of about 5 years. >> Luke and everybody, Thank you for all the contributions and responses. I really am appreciating the feedback and viewpoints. I think we would all have to agree that our suffering has made us stronger - in all ways, including spiritually. A couple more thoughts on this discussion. Somone mentioned that there is no growth without suffering. Of course part of me has to agree, but I am starting to see how this might be a myth we have. Like the bearing the cross thing. Like sometimes I have these moments when I realize how much I am suffering (over this or that) and when i empathize with it, I realize I really did not need to be suffering over it at all. Which has been leading me more in the direction of exploring the conect that progress does not have to be painful (no pain no gain!) and that if I could really get this, I could " let go " of my illness. just some thoughts.... The other part I'm really still not getting is the *time* part. Maybe Luke you could address this if you dont mind. You have been diligently persuing a spiritual awakening for some time, you even speak of some degree of tangible healings from Ron Roth you experienced too. How do you interpret the message then of body - spirit connection WITHOUT feeling badly for not healing yourself within SEVEN years?? See what I mean? Myss (and others) seems to say taht if we give up the victim mentality, healing happens FAST. How do you look at the fact you are not healed in body and not feel that you are wrong in spirit? Am I making sense? Does anyone else get stuck on this one? Thanks again, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2000 Report Share Posted May 26, 2000 Hi all, > I believe that there are some parts of our lives that we choose > before we come into this world. I would NEVER have consciously > chosen to have gone through the experience of CFS, but I cannot deny > that I have been transformed at the deepest level in a very positive, > even " spiritual " way by having gone through it. Amen. :-). Chronic illness devoid of spirituality is just a big mess. I really have to believe that everything happens for a reason even though, from this earthly, time-bound perspective it may look like nothing more than a messy accident. There is no real growth without suffering. Thank you Luke, -- spaceboy@... (david in NZ) // This slowly passing cloud is pitiful! // What dreamwalkers we all are! // Awakened, the one great truth: // Black rain on the temple roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2000 Report Share Posted May 27, 2000 Luke, I have had a similar experience. Many years of spiritual seeking and then years devoted to a committed , diciplined practice/path. 7 years ago, that is when the " I " i thought i was began to dissolve with this illness. It has been my dicipline day to day to practice identifying with part of myself that is free of any illness. This illness has truly provided a life of diminished distraction where I can focus much of my time in spiritual practice, balanced with seeking a cure without over identification with being ill. And I have lost not everything but I have lost my health , career, and most sadly, an agile and functional brain. My spiritual life has warded off depression and hopelessness yet it is not simple. It takes dicipline of the mind to not get lost in hopeless thinking. Thank you for your perspective. I am somewhat shy on the internet but your share inspired me to join in. I have been sick for about 10 years. Lucey >I have had a long history of participating in spiritual disciplines. >I was in several different monasteries for a total of about 5 years. >I have studied and practiced with teachers and masters from India, >Tibet, Japan, and America. I am still actively involved with a >monastery I helped to build to the extent that my health permits. I >make a distinction between the spirituality that most of us practice >and the kind of committed, disciplined practice done by many of the >people I hang out with. > >So I was not exactly a stranger to the area of spirituality when I >got sick 7 years ago. I have to say, that despite the enormous >benefit I received as a result of all the work I did, the REAL >spiritual work in my life did not begin until God came in and wiped >out my entire life. When you have considered yourself on the >spiritual path, and you lose absolutely everything that has >constituted your life, it's really the time when the rubber meets the >road, so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2000 Report Share Posted May 27, 2000 Hello all and thanks to those who have shared their thoughts on this subject. I'd like to add my little bit. I fell ill 12 years ago at a time when I was plunging quite deeply into Zen Buddhist meditation and working closely with a teacher. The practice of attention and questionning saved my life, I think, for I had little else to hang onto during those first few years when I was pretty sick. The hardest " relational " part of being sick was coming up against people (friends, family and spiritual teacher) who believed one caused/created one's own illness and others who didn't believe that illness, especially this one, exists at all. I spent many years trying to prove to others (and self) that yes indeed I was sick and also that I had done/was doing my homework of examining every area of my psyche and " soul " , but was still sick. Twelve years later, I find that my family and some of my friends have understood that the illness exists and that it's ok to be supportive, rather than condemning me or simply ignoring the whole issue. I still have one friend who sees the illness as a sort of spiritual test that I have apparently not yet passed, for otherwise I would be physically healed. I don't think there is a connection (progress implying health). I don't think there is someone out there measuring my spiritual progress and rewarding me with well-being. I think we do become mature and compassionate as a result of living with a difficult chronic illness that robs us of much of our vitality, but frankly, if spiritual " healing " was necessary for regaining physical health, this would be a very cruel joke. Personally, I think that life is at once a source of incredible beauty and horrible suffering. Perhaps in our comfortable western world with our obscenely elevated standard of living (compared to what the vast majority of humans today and in the past have had), we forget that life is a fragile thing and that hardships are part of the fiber of that life. Sorry if this sounds like a sermon, I guess I feel pretty strongly about this. Best regards to all, Carole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2000 Report Share Posted May 27, 2000 > Somone mentioned that there is no growth without suffering. Of course part > of me has to agree, but I am starting to see how this might be a myth we > have. Like the bearing the cross thing. Like sometimes I have these moments > when I realize how much I am suffering (over this or that) and when i > empathize with it, I realize I really did not need to be suffering over it at > all. Which has been leading me more in the direction of exploring the conect > that progress does not have to be painful (no pain no gain!) and that if I > could really get this, I could " let go " of my illness. just some thoughts.... > > The other part I'm really still not getting is the *time* part. Maybe Luke > you could address this if you dont mind. You have been diligently persuing a > spiritual awakening for some time, you even speak of some degree of tangible > healings from Ron Roth you experienced too. How do you interpret the message > then of body - spirit connection WITHOUT feeling badly for not healing > yourself within SEVEN years?? See what I mean? Myss (and others) seems to > say taht if we give up the victim mentality, healing happens FAST. How do > you look at the fact you are not healed in body and not feel that you are > wrong in spirit? Am I making sense? Does anyone else get stuck on this one? > > Thanks again, > , I am not one who holds with the theory that there is no growth without suffering. I am sure all of us have had experiences of insights that come spontaneously, through talking with people, through relationships, through prayer. We still have to deal with suffering however. For those of us with this disease the issue is immediate and constant. I am not an advocate of suffering and pain to help make us better or more spiritual people. Sometimes it just makes people bitter and harsh. That you are actively engaged in the question is a very good sign. As far as I can tell, much of this process of suffering/growth is un- understandable. It never does make sense, but over time you begin to notice that you have been changed by the process. I have a lot of respect for Carolyn Myss and the pioneering work she has done to communicate the power we have to affect our bodies and the long term results of our psycological states on our health. Let's just say I'm less impressed with her " just get off it " approach to altering ourselves. In her book she needs to use dramatic examples of change to demonstrate what is possible for people, but the point is not that you need to heal yourself pronto, but that you can use any illness as an entry point into a deeper understanding of what is a " Self " anyway? What is the relationship between Being and having a body? Sure we all want to heal ourselves right away. But it seems that, so far at least, God has other plans. If you find yourself using Myss's work to beat yourself up, you might want to try " When Things Fall Apart " by Pema Chodron. She is widely respected and has a very useful way of speaking about difficult life situations that DON'T yield easily to prescriptions or ready answers. Hang in there, Luke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2000 Report Share Posted May 28, 2000 In a message dated 00-05-28 10:20:07 EDT, you write: << Luke, I also read " When Things Fall Apart " and found her grounded teachings/practice of being present/aware gently offered. My experience of this illness is a choice between surrendering in the present to my experience of my suffering, desires, expectations, ect or thrashing like a wild animal in a trap causing further suffering. Although Carolyn Myss has some of the collective thinking on mind/body theory, she is not yet advanced in compassion for what is beyond her experience. I take from her what make sense to me and where I feel her judgement ...I separate the dross from the gold. Thank you to all , carol, david and others for this discussion as this a a large topic and very important to me. Lucey >> Dear , Luke and all, Thank you for your responses to this subject. I really appreciate them. Luke, thanks for offering the additional book as a possible balance to the view I'm finding troubling. , what you said here sounds really helpful. I just got exposed to a model of communication (with others or yourself, really) called Nonviolent communication (NVC) by Marchal Rosenburg which really ties into what you have described here . Many messages are good if we can extract the gold and offer or receive it with compassion towards ourselves or others. It is very challenging for me to be able to see separately the gold from the stuff that doenst work, but I am learning to do this, and your message here I think will help me in this situation greatly. Thank you! -WEndy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2000 Report Share Posted May 28, 2000 In a message dated 00-05-28 10:20:07 EDT, you write: << Luke, I also read " When Things Fall Apart " and found her grounded teachings/practice of being present/aware >> By the way, if anyone was interested, the book on Nonviolent Communication I spoke about that talks so much about compassion is simply called, Nonviolent Communication. It's by Marshal Rosenburg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2000 Report Share Posted May 28, 2000 Luke, I also read " When Things Fall Apart " and found her grounded teachings/practice of being present/aware gently offered. My experience of this illness is a choice between surrendering in the present to my experience of my suffering, desires, expectations, ect or thrashing like a wild animal in a trap causing further suffering. Although Carolyn Myss has some of the collective thinking on mind/body theory, she is not yet advanced in compassion for what is beyond her experience. I take from her what make sense to me and where I feel her judgement ...I separate the dross from the gold. Thank you to all , carol, david and others for this discussion as this a a large topic and very important to me. Lucey .. I have been >I am not one who holds with the theory that there is no growth >without suffering. I am sure all of us have had experiences of >insights that come spontaneously, through talking with people, >through relationships, through prayer. > >We still have to deal with suffering however. For those of us with >this disease the issue is immediate and constant. I am not an >advocate of suffering and pain to help make us better or more >spiritual people. Sometimes it just makes people bitter and harsh. >That you are actively engaged in the question is a very good sign. >As far as I can tell, much of this process of suffering/growth is un- >understandable. It never does make sense, but over time you begin to >notice that you have been changed by the process. > >I have a lot of respect for Carolyn Myss and the pioneering work she >has done to communicate the power we have to affect our bodies and >the long term results of our psycological states on our health. >Let's just say I'm less impressed with her " just get off it " approach >to altering ourselves. In her book she needs to use dramatic >examples of change to demonstrate what is possible for people, but >the point is not that you need to heal yourself pronto, but that you >can use any illness as an entry point into a deeper understanding of >what is a " Self " anyway? What is the relationship between Being and >having a body? > >Sure we all want to heal ourselves right away. But it seems that, so >far at least, God has other plans. If you find yourself using Myss's >work to beat yourself up, you might want to try " When Things Fall >Apart " by Pema Chodron. She is widely respected and has a very >useful way of speaking about difficult life situations that DON'T >yield easily to prescriptions or ready answers. > >Hang in there, > >Luke > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Missing old school friends? Find them here: >1/4055/4/_/531724/_/959492596/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each >other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment >discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2000 Report Share Posted May 28, 2000 , Could you tell me any more about NVC and how I might find out more? Thank you too for the inquiry into this issue as I might never have had this opportunity to comminicate with you and the others with a similar interest in mind/body/spirit. I am in a place of alot of physical suffering that in turn creates within me many opportunities to plummet into hellish mental suffering or the opportunity to melt into my experience without judgement. Day to day this is my " practice, dicipline " while I pursue a cure. >Dear , Luke and all, > >Thank you for your responses to this subject. I really appreciate them. >Luke, thanks for offering the additional book as a possible balance to the >view I'm finding troubling. , what you said here sounds really helpful. > I just got exposed to a model of communication (with others or yourself, >really) called Nonviolent communication (NVC) by Marchal Rosenburg which >really ties into what you have described here . Many messages are good >if we can extract the gold and offer or receive it with compassion towards >ourselves or others. It is very challenging for me to be able to see >separately the gold from the stuff that doenst work, but I am learning to do >this, and your message here I think will help me in this situation greatly. >Thank you! > >-WEndy > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Old school buds here: >1/4057/4/_/531724/_/959527770/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each >other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment >discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2000 Report Share Posted May 31, 2000 In a message dated 00-05-28 12:01:11 EDT, you write: << , Could you tell me any more about NVC and how I might find out more? Thank you too for the inquiry into this issue as I might never have had this opportunity to comminicate with you and the others with a similar interest in mind/body/spirit. I am in a place of alot of physical suffering that in turn creates within me many opportunities to plummet into hellish mental suffering or the opportunity to melt into my experience without judgement. Day to day this is my " practice, dicipline " while I pursue a cure. >> Hi susan Here's the web sight for the Center for Nonviolent Communication, headed by marshal Rosenburg.... http://www.cnvc.org/main.htm Reading his book, Nonviolent Communication, a language of compasssion, is probably the quickest way to start learning. Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2000 Report Share Posted May 31, 2000 , I just ordered the book. Thanks for the info. Take care. >Hi susan > >Here's the web sight for the Center for Nonviolent Communication, headed by >marshal Rosenburg.... > >http://www.cnvc.org/main.htm > >Reading his book, Nonviolent Communication, a language of compasssion, is >probably the quickest way to start learning. > >Enjoy! > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Hot off the press- summer's here! >School's out and it's sizzling hot. Whether you're planning a >graduation party, a summer brunch, or simple birthday party, >shop GreatEntertaining.com before your next celebration. >1/4473/4/_/531724/_/959791399/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each >other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment >discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 God is everyplace, don't have to go to Brazil to get healed:-). Adrienne Spiritual Healing Anyone tried spiritual healing? Anyone been to see of God in Brazil? regards, prd34 This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2007 Report Share Posted December 8, 2007 Hi Group: I'm looking for a " spiritual " protocol for mom who is afraid of dying,even though her body no longer serves her. She has been close to death several times, but does not want to let go. What can I do to help her with the struggle? Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Hi ,Is "mom" still around?Sorry, I just got this email.If I can have her name, I will place it on the prayer list.God bless you.LLMadysnowbirds101 <AZNWI@...> wrote: Hi Group: I'm looking for a "spiritual" protocol for mom who is afraid of dying,even though her body no longer serves her. She has been close to death several times, but does not want to let go. What can I do to help her with the struggle? Thanks, Never miss a thing. Make your homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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