Soy and BPH

[Guest guest]

Before I had my diagnosis as cancer my BPH was annoying (I had both).

Saw Palmetto seemed to have little effect. Soy Protein powder dropped

my PSA and it seemed to reduce my bathroom trips.

I an back from the surgery and doing well.

oh, I am going bald too, the transplant helped.

Vanity thy name is man

Positive Dennis

jwwright wrote:

Right, using 0.44 per kg. I

am actually using a little more than that. I figure to try that for a

month or so, if no bad side effects. I got this 2 # can to use up. I

notice the stuff packs a lot too, so a scoop can be misleading. I just

want to see if it does effect BPH.

Regards.

-----

Original Message -----

From:

To:

Sent:

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:15 PM

Subject:

[ ] Re: Soy - Prostate Cancer and Baldness and CVD

Welcome.

I recall in a study that showed soy protein reduced CVD the

effective dose was 21 grams. Higher doses did NOT yield greater

benefit. So the dose for me is 21 grams.

I'll post the reference if I can find it.

--- In ,

"jwwright" <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

> Thanks, ,

> That means about 1 oz of SPI (I guess it's really a concentrate

because it's about 98% protein)...

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Dennis,

How was your biopsy taken - TURP?

They have told me if I have BPH, I don't have cancer - interesting they can be so positive about things they know so little about. Inflammation leads to each.

My PSA has fallen, trend has been down for 2 yrs - I have no idea why. Certainly not the flomax. Maybe the green tea.

I think TURP as a biopsy may be more important than avoiding it - it's just difficult to come to grips with surgery in that area of my body. A lot of old men tell me it's a snap.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis De Jarnette

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:52 AM

Subject: [ ] Soy and BPH

Before I had my diagnosis as cancer my BPH was annoying (I had both). Saw Palmetto seemed to have little effect. Soy Protein powder dropped my PSA and it seemed to reduce my bathroom trips.I an back from the surgery and doing well.oh, I am going bald too, the transplant helped.Vanity thy name is manPositive Dennis jwwright wrote:

Right, using 0.44 per kg. I am actually using a little more than that. I figure to try that for a month or so, if no bad side effects. I got this 2 # can to use up. I notice the stuff packs a lot too, so a scoop can be misleading. I just want to see if it does effect BPH.

Regards.

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, most prostate cancer occurs in the peripheral zone of the prostate, away from the peri-urethral area sampled by the TURP procedure, so that it is a very insensitive means of evaluating one's status regarding carcinoma. Trans-rectal needle core biopsies are much more sensitive:

J Urol 1995;154(4): 1390-1 Is ultrasound guidance necessary for transrectal prostate biopsy?

LG Renfer, D Schow, IM , and S Optenberg

Urological Surgery Service, Army Medical Center, Fort Sam Houston, Texas, USA.

PURPOSE: The relatively simultaneous development of spring-loaded biopsy devices and the proliferation of transrectal ultrasonography for transrectal guidance of biopsy needles have led to the general use of both technologies for transrectal prostate biopsy. This review was done because the incremental cost of ultrasonographic guidance is considerable and the marginal improvement of sensitivity over digital guidance alone is unknown. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A total of 200 consecutive men underwent prostate biopsy with digital and ultrasound guidance. RESULTS: Biopsy sensitivity was superior for ultrasound guidance in all categories of tumors studied, with an overall sensitivity of 88% compared to 74% for digital guidance. Nevertheless, 12% of the tumors were detected with digital rectal examination guidance alone. CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that the optimal method of prostate biopsy may include ultrasound and digital guidance.

Publication Types:

Clinical trial Journal article

MeSH Terms:

Adult Aged Aged, 80 and over Biopsy Comparative Study Human Male Middle Age Prostatic Neoplasms Sensitivity and Specificity

PMID: 7658544

>From: "jwwright" <jwwright@...> >Reply- >< > >Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:22:52 -0500 > >Thanks, Dennis, >How was your biopsy taken - TURP? >They have told me if I have BPH, I don't have cancer - interesting they can be so positive about things they know so little about. Inflammation leads to each. >My PSA has fallen, trend has been down for 2 yrs - I have no idea why. Certainly not the flomax. Maybe the green tea. >I think TURP as a biopsy may be more important than avoiding it - it's just difficult to come to grips with surgery in that area of my body. A lot of old men tell me it's a snap. > >Regards. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dennis De Jarnette > > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:52 AM > Subject: [ ] Soy and BPH > > > Before I had my diagnosis as cancer my BPH was annoying (I had both). Saw Palmetto seemed to have little effect. Soy Protein powder dropped my PSA and it seemed to reduce my bathroom trips. > > I an back from the surgery and doing well. > > oh, I am going bald too, the transplant helped. > > Vanity thy name is man > > Positive Dennis > > jwwright wrote: > > Right, using 0.44 per kg. I am actually using a little more than that. I figure to try that for a month or so, if no bad side effects. I got this 2 # can to use up. I notice the stuff packs a lot too, so a scoop can be misleading. I just want to see if it does effect BPH. > > Regards.

[Guest guest]

jwwright wrote:

Thanks, Dennis,

How was your biopsy taken -

TURP?

no it was the result of a high PSA. my BPH was annoying but not

annoying enough to have surgery. I would have only had a Turp if the

bladder was retaining urine

They have told me if I have

BPH, I don't have cancer - interesting they can be so positive about

things they know so little about.

And totally false, as I had both. I believe from what I have read that

the % is 25%. In other words 25% of those with BPH will EVENTUALLY be

diagnosed with cancer. Not that 25% of those with BPH have cancer.

Inflammation leads to each.

My PSA has fallen, trend has

been down for 2 yrs - I have no idea why. Certainly not the flomax.

Maybe the green tea.

I always drank a lot of tea and well it did not seem to work. Soy

protein did seem to work. Usually my PSA was 3.3 give or take. It went

up to 4.5 and I started Soy and then at the time of my biopsy it went

down to 2.9 the lowest it had ever been,

I think TURP as a biopsy may

be more important than avoiding it - it's just difficult to come to grips with

surgery in that area of my body. A lot of old men tell me it's a snap.

Hmm I have no frame of reference, one can get a biopsy without a turp.

There are risks with a turp.

positive Dennis

Regards.

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Dennis De Jarnette

To:

Sent:

Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:52 AM

Subject:

[ ] Soy and BPH

Before I had my diagnosis as cancer my BPH was annoying (I had both).

Saw Palmetto seemed to have little effect. Soy Protein powder dropped

my PSA and it seemed to reduce my bathroom trips.

I an back from the surgery and doing well.

oh, I am going bald too, the transplant helped.

Vanity thy name is man

Positive Dennis

jwwright wrote:

Right, using 0.44 per

kg. I am actually using a little more than that. I figure to try that

for a month or so, if no bad side effects. I got this 2 # can to use

up. I notice the stuff packs a lot too, so a scoop can be misleading. I

just want to see if it does effect BPH.

Regards.

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Regarding prostate issues: " Prostate cancer is the most common

cancer found in American males. Physicians diagnosed 198,100 prostate

cancer cases in 2001, according to the National Cancer Institute, and

about 31,500 men died from this disease. In other words, if the

statistics remain constant, 19 out of every 100 men born today will

get prostate cancer ...... " .

And this, from the same source, may be helpful regarding prevention:

http://www.tellonefriend.com/pcpp.htm

Note especially the: " avoid canola and flaxseed oils at all costs. "

No doubt this is because of the ALA content. They should have added

soybean oil to the list of 'avoids' too, I believe.

Rodney.

Great to hear your surgery went well, Dennis.

> >

> >> Right, using 0.44 per kg. I am actually using a little more

than

> >> that. I figure to try that for a month or so, if no bad side

> >> effects. I got this 2 # can to use up. I notice the stuff

packs

> >> a lot too, so a scoop can be misleading. I just want to see

if it

> >> does effect BPH.

> >>

> >> Regards.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Oh? This is pdf-available:

.....Regular intake of foods rich in saturated fats, such as meat and

certain dairy products, raises the risk of coronary heart disease,

especially in smokers. The total mixed fat intake is associated with

a higher incidence of the nutritionally linked cancers (i.e. of the

postmenopausal breast, distal colon, prostate, pancreas, ovary and

endometrium). Monounsaturated oils, such as olive or canola oil, are

low-risk fats, as shown in animal models, and through the finding

that the incidence of coronary heart and neoplastic diseases is lower

in the Mediterranean region, where such oils are customarily used.

Fish and fish oils are protective. The associated genotoxic

carcinogens for several of these cancers, and also in heart disease

causation, are heterocyclic amines, produced during the broiling and

frying of creatinine-containing foods such as meats.

PMID: 12570328 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Cheers, Al Pater.

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

wrote:

>

> http://www.tellonefriend.com/pcpp.htm

>

> Note especially the: " avoid canola and flaxseed oils at all

costs. "

> No doubt this is because of the ALA content. They should have

added

> soybean oil to the list of 'avoids' too, I believe.

[Guest guest]

I would call that fortunate, because the biopsies are easy to get, as in, they can be ordered for a high PSA. Inconvenient perhaps, but possible.

They miss the other PCa which is found later in a TURP and is many times too late. So how would you deal with BPH to rule out PCa, which can only be defined by biopsy? I'm talking here about positive actions to identify for sure (relatively) if one has PCa. Waiting with maybe a 33% chance of PCa is not what I call an active process.

Especially if you plan to live to 100.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dowling

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 10:34 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH

Unfortunately, most prostate cancer occurs in the peripheral zone of the prostate, away from the peri-urethral area sampled by the TURP procedure, so that it is a very insensitive means of evaluating one's status regarding carcinoma. Trans-rectal needle core biopsies are much more sensitive:

[Guest guest]

Most "aggressive" prostate carcinoma is found in the peripheral zone. Most of tumors found in the peri-urethral area, unless they represent late, advanced cancer, are low grade and tend to be more indolent.

Probably the best method of surveillance for prostate cancer is to get a baseline PSA early (age 40?) and then follow one's levels regularly. A progressive rise in PSA is a indication something is afoot in the prostate. Although this may occur due to BPH and inflammation, it often indicated cancer when the rise is steady and progressive relative to prostate volume.

>From: "jwwright" <jwwright@...> >Reply- >< > >Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:44:20 -0500 > >I would call that fortunate, because the biopsies are easy to get, as in, they can be ordered for a high PSA. Inconvenient perhaps, but possible. > >They miss the other PCa which is found later in a TURP and is many times too late. So how would you deal with BPH to rule out PCa, which can only be defined by biopsy? I'm talking here about positive actions to identify for sure (relatively) if one has PCa. Waiting with maybe a 33% chance of PCa is not what I call an active process. > >Especially if you plan to live to 100. > >Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dowling > > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 10:34 AM > Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH > > > Unfortunately, most prostate cancer occurs in the peripheral zone of the prostate, away from the peri-urethral area sampled by the TURP procedure, so that it is a very insensitive means of evaluating one's status regarding carcinoma. Trans-rectal needle core biopsies are much more sensitive: > > > > >

[Guest guest]

BUT:

The presence of BPH does not rule out PCa.

A low PSA does not rule out PCa.

I notice those carefully worded words:

"Most of tumors found in the peri-urethral area, unless they represent late, advanced cancer, are low grade and tend to be more indolent."

Those are statistical words. As in maybe you won't get PCa.

That implies we have nothing to worry about because we'll die of something else first. But planning for ages past that (>age 85?) we have to consider it. The devil in in the details.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dowling

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:33 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH

Most "aggressive" prostate carcinoma is found in the peripheral zone. Most of tumors found in the peri-urethral area, unless they represent late, advanced cancer, are low grade and tend to be more indolent.

Probably the best method of surveillance for prostate cancer is to get a baseline PSA early (age 40?) and then follow one's levels regularly. A progressive rise in PSA is a indication something is afoot in the prostate. Although this may occur due to BPH and inflammation, it often indicated cancer when the rise is steady and progressive relative to prostate volume.

>From: "jwwright" <jwwright@...> >Reply- >< > >Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:44:20 -0500 > >I would call that fortunate, because the biopsies are easy to get, as in, they can be ordered for a high PSA. Inconvenient perhaps, but possible. > >They miss the other PCa which is found later in a TURP and is many times too late. So how would you deal with BPH to rule out PCa, which can only be defined by biopsy? I'm talking here about positive actions to identify for sure (relatively) if one has PCa. Waiting with maybe a 33% chance of PCa is not what I call an active process. > >Especially if you plan to live to 100. > >Regards.

[Guest guest]

Ya, so, eat yer veggies including broccoli, tomatos, onions, garlic and add some soy, drink some green tea, take selenium, vitamin D, take statins if you tolerate them and/or require them for lipid profile, monitor your PSA, etc.

On fait ce qu'on peut.

>From: "jwwright" <jwwright@...> >Reply- >< > >Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:14:44 -0500 > >BUT: >The presence of BPH does not rule out PCa. >A low PSA does not rule out PCa. > >I notice those carefully worded words: >"Most of tumors found in the peri-urethral area, unless they represent late, advanced cancer, are low grade and tend to be more indolent." >Those are statistical words. As in maybe you won't get PCa. > >That implies we have nothing to worry about because we'll die of something else first. But planning for ages past that (>age 85?) we have to consider it. The devil in in the details. > >Regards. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dowling > > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:33 PM > Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH > > > > > > > Most "aggressive" prostate carcinoma is found in the peripheral zone. Most of tumors found in the peri-urethral area, unless they represent late, advanced cancer, are low grade and tend to be more indolent. > > Probably the best method of surveillance for prostate cancer is to get a baseline PSA early (age 40?) and then follow one's levels regularly. A progressive rise in PSA is a indication something is afoot in the prostate. Although this may occur due to BPH and inflammation, it often indicated cancer when the rise is steady and progressive relative to prostate volume. > > > > >From: "jwwright" <jwwright@...> > >Reply- > >< > > >Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH > >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:44:20 -0500 > > > >I would call that fortunate, because the biopsies are easy to get, as in, they can be ordered for a high PSA. Inconvenient perhaps, but possible. > > > >They miss the other PCa which is found later in a TURP and is many times too late. So how would you deal with BPH to rule out PCa, which can only be defined by biopsy? I'm talking here about positive actions to identify for sure (relatively) if one has PCa. Waiting with maybe a 33% chance of PCa is not what I call an active process. > > > >Especially if you plan to live to 100. > > > >Regards.

[Guest guest]

Oh, yeah, I forgot take aspirin and vitamin E gamma, and eat omega-3 rich fish, too.

>From: " Dowling" <dowlic@...> >Reply- > >Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:43:52 +0000 >

Ya, so, eat yer veggies including broccoli, tomatos, onions, garlic and add some soy, drink some green tea, take selenium, vitamin D, take statins if you tolerate them and/or require them for lipid profile, monitor your PSA, etc.

On fait ce qu'on peut.

>From: "jwwright" <jwwright@...> >Reply- >< > >Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:14:44 -0500 > >BUT: >The presence of BPH does not rule out PCa. >A low PSA does not rule out PCa. > >I notice those carefully worded words: >"Most of tumors found in the peri-urethral area, unless they represent late, advanced cancer, are low grade and tend to be more indolent." >Those are statistical words. As in maybe you won't get PCa. > >That implies we have nothing to worry about because we'll die of something else first. But planning for ages past that (>age 85?) we have to consider it. The devil in in the details. > >Regards. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dowling > > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:33 PM > Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH > > > > > > > Most "aggressive" prostate carcinoma is found in the peripheral zone. Most of tumors found in the peri-urethral area, unless they represent late, advanced cancer, are low grade and tend to be more indolent. > > Probably the best method of surveillance for prostate cancer is to get a baseline PSA early (age 40?) and then follow one's levels regularly. A progressive rise in PSA is a indication something is afoot in the prostate. Although this may occur due to BPH and inflammation, it often indicated cancer when the rise is steady and progressive relative to prostate volume. > > > > >From: "jwwright" <jwwright@...> > >Reply- > >< > > >Subject: Re: [ ] Soy and BPH > >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:44:20 -0500 > > > >I would call that fortunate, because the biopsies are easy to get, as in, they can be ordered for a high PSA. Inconvenient perhaps, but possible. > > > >They miss the other PCa which is found later in a TURP and is many times too late. So how would you deal with BPH to rule out PCa, which can only be defined by biopsy? I'm talking here about positive actions to identify for sure (relatively) if one has PCa. Waiting with maybe a 33% chance of PCa is not what I call an active process. > > > >Especially if you plan to live to 100. > > > >Regards.

[Guest guest]

Hi :

.............. and quantifying that (that 19% of males born today will

get prostate cancer; but that lycopene can reduce incidence 60%;

fatty fish intake by 50%; selenium by 50%; vitamin E 32%; CR 63%;

statins 56% ........... and lots of others I could not find a

PERCENTAGE for, such as soy protein; vitamin D; cruciferous

vegetables; exercise; tea; and avoiding ALA, CoQ10, copper, beta

carotene; ) then OUR chances of getting it should be less than:

0.19 x 0.4 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.68 x 0.37 x 0.44 = 0.2%!!!

Of course I am not sure that the factors are multiplicative as in the

line above, but if such calculations encourage a few more people to

take these precautions then why not quote it?

A risk of one-fifth of once percent seems acceptable to me. It could

be less than that as I have only included half the factors noted.

It looks like we are ending up with a long list here just as we did

for colon cancer.

Rodney.

> Ya, so, eat yer veggies including broccoli, tomatos, onions, garlic

and add some soy, drink some green tea, take selenium, vitamin D,

take statins if you tolerate them and/or require them for lipid

profile, monitor your PSA, etc.

On fait ce qu'on peut.

[Guest guest]

Hi :

Well that is fifteen men, compared with a fourteen year prospective

study of 48,000 in the study posted.

But we iz all over 21 here.

Rodney.

> > > >

> > > >> Right, using 0.44 per kg. I am actually using a little

more

> >than

> > > >> that. I figure to try that for a month or so, if no bad

side

> > > >> effects. I got this 2 # can to use up. I notice the

stuff

> >packs

> > > >> a lot too, so a scoop can be misleading. I just want to

see

> >if it

> > > >> does effect BPH.

> > > >>

> > > >> Regards.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi :

If I may ask, what is the benefit you are hoping to get from the

flax? If it is a CHD benefit you are looking for, do you not think

that CR will erase any possible risk to yourself from that source?

Rodney.

> ............ I'm still grinding up a bit of flax seed for

> smoothies .......