RE: Leaky gut and celiac disease

[Guest guest]

You know, upon further reflection, it was two of my children that we

specifically tested for celiac disease. Neither had it. I think I will have

to look into that for myself. What is the name of the test so that I can

order it?

Thanks,

Ligure

_____

From: Ian Kemp [mailto:ianandsue.kemp@...]

Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 1:55 PM

Subject: Leaky gut and celiac disease

Ligure,

You say you have tested negative for celiac disease but was it a specific

test for that? Feedback from this group seems to suggest that the majority

have some sort of immune system problem, which very often seems to be linked

to leaky gut. There is a general test for leaky gut (also known as

intestinal permeability) involving testing the absorption/permeation of a

solution of microparticles of various sizes which you drink. From our

experience we would say that anyone suffering chronic fatigue, ME, MCS or ES

symptoms would be well advised to do this test - we wish we had done it a

lot earlier than we did. Sue tested positive for leaky gut but negative for

the more specific celiac disease.

Ian

Re: Re: Is ES an allergy? (Explanation part 2)

Hi, Ligure,

My understanding of allergies is much different than yours. It was

explained to me that we aquire allergies when our bodies cannot break down

the components of a particular food or chemical, etc, into a usable unit.

Anything that is not usable AND gets into the blood stream is considered by

the body to be an antigen. Our immune systems are encoded to attack

antigens. Foreign substances get into our blood streams via tight junctions

(like bricks in a wall, which form the wall of the gut, for instance) which

are usually closed and are supposed to be closed, but react to glutens and a

few other things by opening. (I have read that EMFs cause tight junctions

to open.) As a celiac I am aware of this because celiacs have tight

junctions which stay open not only in the small intestine, but in the blood

brain barrier and lungs. (Some say also the heart.) This is why celiacs

have such a high incidence of auto-immune disease--the immune system is

always attacking something or other, usually undigested food particles.

Our bodies cannot use many nutrients without " carriers " which escort each

assigned nutrient across the intestinal wall at particular sites. B12, for

instance, which you mention having problems with, is assigned a particular

site where it crosses and this is also one of the first sites to be damaged

in celiac disease or from gluten intolerance. The site for calcium is also

one of the first to be damaged by gluten intolerance and cd. It sounds to

me like you do not have an allergy to either of these, but instead have

gluten intolerance or celiac disease. In celiac disease, you must not eat

any glutens which are contained in wheat, rye, barley, and oats (by

contamination). Nor can you eat any derivitives of these. In 6 months or

so of avoidance, your small intestine will begin to heal and this will cure

you of your " allergy " to B12 and calcium. I had problems with these

nutrients as well. When I was finally dxed with cd, I had osteoporosis from

calcium deficiency and a dexa scan of -3.50. Two years after going

glutenfree, my dexa score had improved to +1.75.

I am not saying that NAET or Bioset cannot work (I know nothing of either,

btw). But if they work they do it on a different principal than simply

" retraining " . What exactly is NAET and Bioset? Have these worked, for

instance, for your allergies to B12 and calcium?

Diane

Ligure <reiki@...> wrote:

And now the different level.

Given that the body has a means of taking care of its allergen/toxic load

(part 1), why did it accumulate the load in the first place? Or more to the

point why do some folks have an allergy to some substance while others do

not? These questions have plagued me.

So, the body responds to an allergen because it was trained to do so. This

may seem strange (at least it did to me) considering that there are many

people's bodies which do not adversely respond to a given allergen (i.e.

wheat) while others have a problem with it. How did the body acquire such an

adverse response? Some might say genetics. I am going to lay that one aside

just because that is the typical catchall when the " expoerts " don't know the

answer.

It may be the " answer " in some cases, but there or other answers that can be

found before we throw in the genetic towel.

How else was the body trained? Simple explanations are in order.

Prolonged exposure, over exposure, or exposure at the wrong place It often

happens that where at one time one has no allergic response to something to

discover one day that they can no longer tolerate it. This occurs because

the immune system got engaged at a deeper level than it once needed to or

" decided " to engage the substance in an adversarial fashion. One example of

this is the " leaky gut " syndrome. If the digestive system does not

metabolize the bread and break its proteins down into amino acids, the

immune system will engage the proteins as if they were foreign substances

and develop an allergy.

I because allergic to calcium and B12 in this way. And both of these are

needed by the body.

Immune system is weak during exposure

This can happen by weakened associaiton. For instance if you are weakened by

exposure to some chemical and you are eating bread during that exposure,

your immune system may mistakenly react to the bread. The weakness may not

be physical even. It could be emotional,

I am sure there are other ways of training, but they are similar.

Now the question is how to " untrain " the response.

This is where the next level begins. Through energetic-type of medicine like

NAET and Bioset the body's immune system is retaught to no longer consider a

substance as an allergen. It sort of makes peace with the allergen and turns

it into a peacable neighbor. So instead of having an attacking type of

response which leads to histamine reactions and thus cascade into an

allergic response it allow the substance to coexist and even just pass on

through the body if the substance is of no use.

Now this energetic medicine goes to the level that your body's " field "

can tell

when it comes in proximity to a substances " field " what that substance it.

If

your body does not want that substance (i.e. allergic response), it will

begin to respond accordingly.

---------------------------------

Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Ligure,

Where are you located? Doctors do different tests in different

areas/countries. Here in the US, you can get a battery of blood tests +/or a

genetic test. None are 100% conclusive, tho the genetic test can at least tell

you if you have the known genes. (They do suspect, tho, that they have not yet

mapped all the genes which produce celiac/gluten intolerance.) There is also a

doc who is highly regarded in the celiac community (but whose work is considered

suspect by many in the medical community) who dxes celiac disease by a stool

test by mail. In the end, the gold standard for celiac disease is still by

endoscopic biopsy. Even this is often false negative, especially if the person

abstains from glutens prior to the biopsy, or insufficient samples are taken, or

the doctor is not familiar with what to look for, or.... You get the picture.

If you have been able to cure your " allergy " to calcium and B12, it is likely

you have done something which has resulted in curing leaky gut. Celiac disease

can go into remission, tho this is not the norm. It is not as likely that you

have celiac disease if your B12 and calcium are now well tolerated. However, if

you are still experiencing signs of leaky gut, a celiac test would be very good

for you to still have.

If you are here in the States, I can send you more info. Enterolabs is the

name of the lab with the doc(Dr Fine) who does stool samples. He also does

genetic tests. You can research that online. I can get you the site if you are

not familiar with search engines. I don't know how this works in Britain or

other countries, but here in the US celiac disease is still a hard disease for

many to get dxed. There are many on my celiac forum who gave up trying to get a

formal dx and simply went totally gluten-free on their own.

My best to you and your children,

Diane

Ligure <reiki@...> wrote:

You know, upon further reflection, it was two of my children that we

specifically tested for celiac disease. Neither had it. I think I will have

to look into that for myself. What is the name of the test so that I can

order it?

Thanks,

Ligure

_____

From: Ian Kemp [mailto:ianandsue.kemp@...]

Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 1:55 PM

Subject: Leaky gut and celiac disease

Ligure,

You say you have tested negative for celiac disease but was it a specific

test for that? Feedback from this group seems to suggest that the majority

have some sort of immune system problem, which very often seems to be linked

to leaky gut. There is a general test for leaky gut (also known as

intestinal permeability) involving testing the absorption/permeation of a

solution of microparticles of various sizes which you drink. From our

experience we would say that anyone suffering chronic fatigue, ME, MCS or ES

symptoms would be well advised to do this test - we wish we had done it a

lot earlier than we did. Sue tested positive for leaky gut but negative for

the more specific celiac disease.

Ian

Re: Re: Is ES an allergy? (Explanation part 2)

Hi, Ligure,

My understanding of allergies is much different than yours. It was

explained to me that we aquire allergies when our bodies cannot break down

the components of a particular food or chemical, etc, into a usable unit.

Anything that is not usable AND gets into the blood stream is considered by

the body to be an antigen. Our immune systems are encoded to attack

antigens. Foreign substances get into our blood streams via tight junctions

(like bricks in a wall, which form the wall of the gut, for instance) which

are usually closed and are supposed to be closed, but react to glutens and a

few other things by opening. (I have read that EMFs cause tight junctions

to open.) As a celiac I am aware of this because celiacs have tight

junctions which stay open not only in the small intestine, but in the blood

brain barrier and lungs. (Some say also the heart.) This is why celiacs

have such a high incidence of auto-immune disease--the immune system is

always attacking something or other, usually undigested food particles.

Our bodies cannot use many nutrients without " carriers " which escort each

assigned nutrient across the intestinal wall at particular sites. B12, for

instance, which you mention having problems with, is assigned a particular

site where it crosses and this is also one of the first sites to be damaged

in celiac disease or from gluten intolerance. The site for calcium is also

one of the first to be damaged by gluten intolerance and cd. It sounds to

me like you do not have an allergy to either of these, but instead have

gluten intolerance or celiac disease. In celiac disease, you must not eat

any glutens which are contained in wheat, rye, barley, and oats (by

contamination). Nor can you eat any derivitives of these. In 6 months or

so of avoidance, your small intestine will begin to heal and this will cure

you of your " allergy " to B12 and calcium. I had problems with these

nutrients as well. When I was finally dxed with cd, I had osteoporosis from

calcium deficiency and a dexa scan of -3.50. Two years after going

glutenfree, my dexa score had improved to +1.75.

I am not saying that NAET or Bioset cannot work (I know nothing of either,

btw). But if they work they do it on a different principal than simply

" retraining " . What exactly is NAET and Bioset? Have these worked, for

instance, for your allergies to B12 and calcium?

Diane

Ligure <reiki@...> wrote:

And now the different level.

Given that the body has a means of taking care of its allergen/toxic load

(part 1), why did it accumulate the load in the first place? Or more to the

point why do some folks have an allergy to some substance while others do

not? These questions have plagued me.

So, the body responds to an allergen because it was trained to do so. This

may seem strange (at least it did to me) considering that there are many

people's bodies which do not adversely respond to a given allergen (i.e.

wheat) while others have a problem with it. How did the body acquire such an

adverse response? Some might say genetics. I am going to lay that one aside

just because that is the typical catchall when the " expoerts " don't know the

answer.

It may be the " answer " in some cases, but there or other answers that can be

found before we throw in the genetic towel.

How else was the body trained? Simple explanations are in order.

Prolonged exposure, over exposure, or exposure at the wrong place It often

happens that where at one time one has no allergic response to something to

discover one day that they can no longer tolerate it. This occurs because

the immune system got engaged at a deeper level than it once needed to or

" decided " to engage the substance in an adversarial fashion. One example of

this is the " leaky gut " syndrome. If the digestive system does not

metabolize the bread and break its proteins down into amino acids, the

immune system will engage the proteins as if they were foreign substances

and develop an allergy.

I because allergic to calcium and B12 in this way. And both of these are

needed by the body.

Immune system is weak during exposure

This can happen by weakened associaiton. For instance if you are weakened by

exposure to some chemical and you are eating bread during that exposure,

your immune system may mistakenly react to the bread. The weakness may not

be physical even. It could be emotional,

I am sure there are other ways of training, but they are similar.

Now the question is how to " untrain " the response.

This is where the next level begins. Through energetic-type of medicine like

NAET and Bioset the body's immune system is retaught to no longer consider a

substance as an allergen. It sort of makes peace with the allergen and turns

it into a peacable neighbor. So instead of having an attacking type of

response which leads to histamine reactions and thus cascade into an

allergic response it allow the substance to coexist and even just pass on

through the body if the substance is of no use.

Now this energetic medicine goes to the level that your body's " field "

can tell

when it comes in proximity to a substances " field " what that substance it.

If

your body does not want that substance (i.e. allergic response), it will

begin to respond accordingly.

---------------------------------

Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Guest guest]

The test is the " leaky gut " or " intestinal permeability " test. It's one of

the most common " alternative medicine " tests, and a number of labs do it

both in the UK and the USA (and probably elsewhere). They should also

provide an interpretation of the results for you.

From what I've heard, it's common for people with MCS or other immune system

dysfunction to test positive, and this helps to explain why they are not

absorbing the nutrients that usually keep the immune system and liver detox

functions healthy. The problem then is what to do about it. The msot

common hypothesis is that it's caused by a bacterial or yeast problem, and

probiotics or an antifungal may help, depending on the person. (And also on

the practitioner - there doesn't seem to be a consensus on the best

treatment).

Ian

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of

Ligure

Sent: 15 May 2006 04:38

Subject: RE: Leaky gut and celiac disease

You know, upon further reflection, it was two of my children that we

specifically tested for celiac disease. Neither had it. I think I will have

to look into that for myself. What is the name of the test so that I can

order it?

Thanks,

Ligure

_____

From: Ian Kemp [mailto:ianandsue.kemp@...]

Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 1:55 PM

Subject: Leaky gut and celiac disease

Ligure,

You say you have tested negative for celiac disease but was it a specific

test for that? Feedback from this group seems to suggest that the majority

have some sort of immune system problem, which very often seems to be linked

to leaky gut. There is a general test for leaky gut (also known as

intestinal permeability) involving testing the absorption/permeation of a

solution of microparticles of various sizes which you drink. From our

experience we would say that anyone suffering chronic fatigue, ME, MCS or ES

symptoms would be well advised to do this test - we wish we had done it a

lot earlier than we did. Sue tested positive for leaky gut but negative for

the more specific celiac disease.

Ian

Re: Re: Is ES an allergy? (Explanation part 2)

Hi, Ligure,

My understanding of allergies is much different than yours. It was

explained to me that we aquire allergies when our bodies cannot break down

the components of a particular food or chemical, etc, into a usable unit.

Anything that is not usable AND gets into the blood stream is considered by

the body to be an antigen. Our immune systems are encoded to attack

antigens. Foreign substances get into our blood streams via tight junctions

(like bricks in a wall, which form the wall of the gut, for instance) which

are usually closed and are supposed to be closed, but react to glutens and a

few other things by opening. (I have read that EMFs cause tight junctions

to open.) As a celiac I am aware of this because celiacs have tight

junctions which stay open not only in the small intestine, but in the blood

brain barrier and lungs. (Some say also the heart.) This is why celiacs

have such a high incidence of auto-immune disease--the immune system is

always attacking something or other, usually undigested food particles.

Our bodies cannot use many nutrients without " carriers " which escort each

assigned nutrient across the intestinal wall at particular sites. B12, for

instance, which you mention having problems with, is assigned a particular

site where it crosses and this is also one of the first sites to be damaged

in celiac disease or from gluten intolerance. The site for calcium is also

one of the first to be damaged by gluten intolerance and cd. It sounds to

me like you do not have an allergy to either of these, but instead have

gluten intolerance or celiac disease. In celiac disease, you must not eat

any glutens which are contained in wheat, rye, barley, and oats (by

contamination). Nor can you eat any derivitives of these. In 6 months or

so of avoidance, your small intestine will begin to heal and this will cure

you of your " allergy " to B12 and calcium. I had problems with these

nutrients as well. When I was finally dxed with cd, I had osteoporosis from

calcium deficiency and a dexa scan of -3.50. Two years after going

glutenfree, my dexa score had improved to +1.75.

I am not saying that NAET or Bioset cannot work (I know nothing of either,

btw). But if they work they do it on a different principal than simply

" retraining " . What exactly is NAET and Bioset? Have these worked, for

instance, for your allergies to B12 and calcium?

Diane

Ligure <reiki@...> wrote:

And now the different level.

Given that the body has a means of taking care of its allergen/toxic load

(part 1), why did it accumulate the load in the first place? Or more to the

point why do some folks have an allergy to some substance while others do

not? These questions have plagued me.

So, the body responds to an allergen because it was trained to do so. This

may seem strange (at least it did to me) considering that there are many

people's bodies which do not adversely respond to a given allergen (i.e.

wheat) while others have a problem with it. How did the body acquire such an

adverse response? Some might say genetics. I am going to lay that one aside

just because that is the typical catchall when the " expoerts " don't know the

answer.

It may be the " answer " in some cases, but there or other answers that can be

found before we throw in the genetic towel.

How else was the body trained? Simple explanations are in order.

Prolonged exposure, over exposure, or exposure at the wrong place It often

happens that where at one time one has no allergic response to something to

discover one day that they can no longer tolerate it. This occurs because

the immune system got engaged at a deeper level than it once needed to or

" decided " to engage the substance in an adversarial fashion. One example of

this is the " leaky gut " syndrome. If the digestive system does not

metabolize the bread and break its proteins down into amino acids, the

immune system will engage the proteins as if they were foreign substances

and develop an allergy.

I because allergic to calcium and B12 in this way. And both of these are

needed by the body.

Immune system is weak during exposure

This can happen by weakened associaiton. For instance if you are weakened by

exposure to some chemical and you are eating bread during that exposure,

your immune system may mistakenly react to the bread. The weakness may not

be physical even. It could be emotional,

I am sure there are other ways of training, but they are similar.

Now the question is how to " untrain " the response.

This is where the next level begins. Through energetic-type of medicine like

NAET and Bioset the body's immune system is retaught to no longer consider a

substance as an allergen. It sort of makes peace with the allergen and turns

it into a peacable neighbor. So instead of having an attacking type of

response which leads to histamine reactions and thus cascade into an

allergic response it allow the substance to coexist and even just pass on

through the body if the substance is of no use.

Now this energetic medicine goes to the level that your body's " field "

can tell

when it comes in proximity to a substances " field " what that substance it.

If

your body does not want that substance (i.e. allergic response), it will

begin to respond accordingly.

---------------------------------

Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Guest guest]

Here's some info. I just got. There are tests on the link.

Everyone in America has Gluten Sensitivity until proven

otherwise... From Dr. Fine's www.enterolab.com website:

>

>Note: DQ2 and DQ8 are the main Celiac ( " classic intestinal

villous atrophy associated with gluten intolerance " ) genes

>

> " How common are the gluten sensitivity and celiac genes?

>DQ2 is present in 31% of the general American population. DQ8

(without DQ2) is present in another 12%. Thus, the main celiac

genes are present in 43% of Americans. Include DQ1 (without DQ2

or DQ8), which is present in another 38%, yields the fact that

at least 81% of America is genetically predisposed to gluten

sensitivity. (Of those with at least one DQ1 allele, 46% have

DQ1,7, 42% have DQ1,1, 11% have DQ1,4, and 1% have DQ1,9.) Of

the remaining 19%, most have DQ7,7 (an allele almost identical

in structure to DQ2,2, the most celiac-predisposing of genetic

combinations) which in our laboratory experience is associated

with strikingly high antigliadin antibody titers in many such

people. Thus, it is really only those with DQ4,4 that have never

been shown to have a genetic predisposition to gluten

sensitivity, and this gene combination is very rare in America

(but not necessarily as rare in Sub-Saharan Africa or Asia where

the majority of the inhabitants are not only racially different

from Caucasians, but they rarely eat gluten-containing grains,

and hence, gluten-induced disease is rare). Thus, based on these

data, almost all Americans, especially those descending from

Europe (including Mexico and other Latin states because of the

Spanish influence), the Middle East, the Near East (including

India), and Russia, are genetically predisposed to gluten

sensitivity. (That is why we are here doing what we do!) But be

aware that if a person of any race has a gluten sensitive gene,

and eats gluten, they can become gluten sensitive. "

>

>This above quotation is from

https://www.enterolab.com/StaticPages/Faq_Result_Interpretation.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Ligure and Ian,

Sorry this info may not translate well. I am copying from a word document and

it is not spacing correctly for me. Celiac testing is different than that for

leaky gut. Because I belong to a large (3000+ people) celiac forum and another

celiac food forum, I am up on all the research, etc, for celiac disease. There

is a new home test for celiac disease, however, I regard it too new to be

accurate. (I also do not regard Enterolabs tests as completely accurate, tho

these can be a way to go if you are looking for gluten intolerance rather than

just celiac disease.) Again, I do not know how they do this in Britain, but in

the US, these are the tests for celiac disease:

As a general note, these lab tests are looking for antibodies to gluten, and

therefore, may not be accurate for diagnosis if someone is already maintaining a

gluten free diet.

It is a battery of tests, including:

1. IgA antigliadin antibodies

2. IgG antigliadin antibodies

3. Anti-endomysial IgA

4. Tissue Transglutaminase IgA

5. Total Serum IgA (note.. many people forget to run this test,

so be sure to ask for it. It is important because a significant

percentage of people with celiac disease have selective IgA

deficiency and don't make enough IgA to make the test valid and

might conclude an incorrect diagnosis).

The Genetic tests look for DQ2 and DQ8 genes. It is now generally

accepted that all new adult celiacs had celiac disease as children

and underwent remission. Remission happens most often at the age

of 11yo.

Prometheus Labs--I have heard more than once that they are the most

effective and knowledgeable lab in this country (US) when it comes to blood

testing for

Celiac testing. They test for the entire celiac panel.

I was told that the serology is only $290 and the serology plus genetic

test is $730 (This includes the genetic testing). Prometheus will

submit to your insurance if you provide them with the information.

I was told that you need a doctor's written order to take to a lab.

The lab will draw the blood and send it to Prometheus for testing.

If your doctor is not familiar with sending testing to them, Prometheus

will ship you their specimen transport boxes at no charge. Their

website is www.prometheuslabs.com and has some detailed info

about the Celiac Disease Serology.

Hope this answers your questions about celiac testing. As I wrote in another

email, celiac tests are not always conclusive. There is a problem with false

negative results more than false positive ones. As a result, some people prefer

to go completely gluten-free (the treatment for celiac disease) even without

positive test results. In doing so, many find relief of symptoms and then stay

gf.

Diane

Ian Kemp <ianandsue.kemp@...> wrote:

The test is the " leaky gut " or " intestinal permeability " test. It's one of

the most common " alternative medicine " tests, and a number of labs do it

both in the UK and the USA (and probably elsewhere). They should also

provide an interpretation of the results for you.

From what I've heard, it's common for people with MCS or other immune system

dysfunction to test positive, and this helps to explain why they are not

absorbing the nutrients that usually keep the immune system and liver detox

functions healthy. The problem then is what to do about it. The msot

common hypothesis is that it's caused by a bacterial or yeast problem, and

probiotics or an antifungal may help, depending on the person. (And also on

the practitioner - there doesn't seem to be a consensus on the best

treatment).

Ian

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of

Ligure

Sent: 15 May 2006 04:38

Subject: RE: Leaky gut and celiac disease

You know, upon further reflection, it was two of my children that we

specifically tested for celiac disease. Neither had it. I think I will have

to look into that for myself. What is the name of the test so that I can

order it?

Thanks,

Ligure

_____

From: Ian Kemp [mailto:ianandsue.kemp@...]

Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 1:55 PM

Subject: Leaky gut and celiac disease

Ligure,

You say you have tested negative for celiac disease but was it a specific

test for that? Feedback from this group seems to suggest that the majority

have some sort of immune system problem, which very often seems to be linked

to leaky gut. There is a general test for leaky gut (also known as

intestinal permeability) involving testing the absorption/permeation of a

solution of microparticles of various sizes which you drink. From our

experience we would say that anyone suffering chronic fatigue, ME, MCS or ES

symptoms would be well advised to do this test - we wish we had done it a

lot earlier than we did. Sue tested positive for leaky gut but negative for

the more specific celiac disease.

Ian

Re: Re: Is ES an allergy? (Explanation part 2)

Hi, Ligure,

My understanding of allergies is much different than yours. It was

explained to me that we aquire allergies when our bodies cannot break down

the components of a particular food or chemical, etc, into a usable unit.

Anything that is not usable AND gets into the blood stream is considered by

the body to be an antigen. Our immune systems are encoded to attack

antigens. Foreign substances get into our blood streams via tight junctions

(like bricks in a wall, which form the wall of the gut, for instance) which

are usually closed and are supposed to be closed, but react to glutens and a

few other things by opening. (I have read that EMFs cause tight junctions

to open.) As a celiac I am aware of this because celiacs have tight

junctions which stay open not only in the small intestine, but in the blood

brain barrier and lungs. (Some say also the heart.) This is why celiacs

have such a high incidence of auto-immune disease--the immune system is

always attacking something or other, usually undigested food particles.

Our bodies cannot use many nutrients without " carriers " which escort each

assigned nutrient across the intestinal wall at particular sites. B12, for

instance, which you mention having problems with, is assigned a particular

site where it crosses and this is also one of the first sites to be damaged

in celiac disease or from gluten intolerance. The site for calcium is also

one of the first to be damaged by gluten intolerance and cd. It sounds to

me like you do not have an allergy to either of these, but instead have

gluten intolerance or celiac disease. In celiac disease, you must not eat

any glutens which are contained in wheat, rye, barley, and oats (by

contamination). Nor can you eat any derivitives of these. In 6 months or

so of avoidance, your small intestine will begin to heal and this will cure

you of your " allergy " to B12 and calcium. I had problems with these

nutrients as well. When I was finally dxed with cd, I had osteoporosis from

calcium deficiency and a dexa scan of -3.50. Two years after going

glutenfree, my dexa score had improved to +1.75.

I am not saying that NAET or Bioset cannot work (I know nothing of either,

btw). But if they work they do it on a different principal than simply

" retraining " . What exactly is NAET and Bioset? Have these worked, for

instance, for your allergies to B12 and calcium?

Diane

Ligure <reiki@...> wrote:

And now the different level.

Given that the body has a means of taking care of its allergen/toxic load

(part 1), why did it accumulate the load in the first place? Or more to the

point why do some folks have an allergy to some substance while others do

not? These questions have plagued me.

So, the body responds to an allergen because it was trained to do so. This

may seem strange (at least it did to me) considering that there are many

people's bodies which do not adversely respond to a given allergen (i.e.

wheat) while others have a problem with it. How did the body acquire such an

adverse response? Some might say genetics. I am going to lay that one aside

just because that is the typical catchall when the " expoerts " don't know the

answer.

It may be the " answer " in some cases, but there or other answers that can be

found before we throw in the genetic towel.

How else was the body trained? Simple explanations are in order.

Prolonged exposure, over exposure, or exposure at the wrong place It often

happens that where at one time one has no allergic response to something to

discover one day that they can no longer tolerate it. This occurs because

the immune system got engaged at a deeper level than it once needed to or

" decided " to engage the substance in an adversarial fashion. One example of

this is the " leaky gut " syndrome. If the digestive system does not

metabolize the bread and break its proteins down into amino acids, the

immune system will engage the proteins as if they were foreign substances

and develop an allergy.

I because allergic to calcium and B12 in this way. And both of these are

needed by the body.

Immune system is weak during exposure

This can happen by weakened associaiton. For instance if you are weakened by

exposure to some chemical and you are eating bread during that exposure,

your immune system may mistakenly react to the bread. The weakness may not

be physical even. It could be emotional,

I am sure there are other ways of training, but they are similar.

Now the question is how to " untrain " the response.

This is where the next level begins. Through energetic-type of medicine like

NAET and Bioset the body's immune system is retaught to no longer consider a

substance as an allergen. It sort of makes peace with the allergen and turns

it into a peacable neighbor. So instead of having an attacking type of

response which leads to histamine reactions and thus cascade into an

allergic response it allow the substance to coexist and even just pass on

through the body if the substance is of no use.

Now this energetic medicine goes to the level that your body's " field "

can tell

when it comes in proximity to a substances " field " what that substance it.

If

your body does not want that substance (i.e. allergic response), it will

begin to respond accordingly.

---------------------------------

Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Diane. You've clarified the point I was trying to make. Leaky gut

and celiac disease are not the same. Either may cause immune system

problems. Therefore, testing for one will not rule out the other. Both are

potentially important.

In Sue's case, she has tested positive for leaky gut but not for celiac, and

cutting wheat and gluten out of her diet made only a marginal improvement

(and she showed a separate intolerance to these anyway, along with many

other foods). We are now convinced that the leaky gut has a major bearing

on her entire history of problems. The supporting evidence is that she was

100% healthy until a prolonged dose of antibiotics 7 years ago, got ME/CFS,

was cured of the physical exhaustion symptoms by an anti-candida diet, but

has gradually gone downhill since. It seems that some residual damage

and/or bacteria were left behind. After the diet worked, we did not follow

up with antifungals as recommended - possibly a mistake.

Ian

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Evie

Sent: 16 May 2006 07:45

Subject: RE: Leaky gut and celiac disease

Hi Ligure and Ian,

Sorry this info may not translate well. I am copying from a word document

and it is not spacing correctly for me. Celiac testing is different than

that for leaky gut. Because I belong to a large (3000+ people) celiac forum

and another celiac food forum, I am up on all the research, etc, for celiac

disease. There is a new home test for celiac disease, however, I regard it

too new to be accurate. (I also do not regard Enterolabs tests as

completely accurate, tho these can be a way to go if you are looking for

gluten intolerance rather than just celiac disease.) Again, I do not know

how they do this in Britain, but in the US, these are the tests for celiac

disease:

As a general note, these lab tests are looking for antibodies to gluten,

and therefore, may not be accurate for diagnosis if someone is already

maintaining a gluten free diet.

It is a battery of tests, including:

1. IgA antigliadin antibodies

2. IgG antigliadin antibodies

3. Anti-endomysial IgA

4. Tissue Transglutaminase IgA

5. Total Serum IgA (note.. many people forget to run this test,

so be sure to ask for it. It is important because a significant

percentage of people with celiac disease have selective IgA

deficiency and don't make enough IgA to make the test valid and

might conclude an incorrect diagnosis).

The Genetic tests look for DQ2 and DQ8 genes. It is now generally

accepted that all new adult celiacs had celiac disease as children

and underwent remission. Remission happens most often at the age

of 11yo.

Prometheus Labs--I have heard more than once that they are the most

effective and knowledgeable lab in this country (US) when it comes to blood

testing for

Celiac testing. They test for the entire celiac panel.

I was told that the serology is only $290 and the serology plus genetic

test is $730 (This includes the genetic testing). Prometheus will

submit to your insurance if you provide them with the information.

I was told that you need a doctor's written order to take to a lab.

The lab will draw the blood and send it to Prometheus for testing.

If your doctor is not familiar with sending testing to them, Prometheus

will ship you their specimen transport boxes at no charge. Their

website is www.prometheuslabs.com and has some detailed info

about the Celiac Disease Serology.

Hope this answers your questions about celiac testing. As I wrote in

another email, celiac tests are not always conclusive. There is a problem

with false negative results more than false positive ones. As a result,

some people prefer to go completely gluten-free (the treatment for celiac

disease) even without positive test results. In doing so, many find relief

of symptoms and then stay gf.

Diane

Ian Kemp <ianandsue.kemp@...> wrote:

The test is the " leaky gut " or " intestinal permeability " test. It's one

of

the most common " alternative medicine " tests, and a number of labs do it

both in the UK and the USA (and probably elsewhere). They should also

provide an interpretation of the results for you.

From what I've heard, it's common for people with MCS or other immune system

dysfunction to test positive, and this helps to explain why they are not

absorbing the nutrients that usually keep the immune system and liver detox

functions healthy. The problem then is what to do about it. The msot

common hypothesis is that it's caused by a bacterial or yeast problem, and

probiotics or an antifungal may help, depending on the person. (And also on

the practitioner - there doesn't seem to be a consensus on the best

treatment).

Ian

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of

Ligure

Sent: 15 May 2006 04:38

Subject: RE: Leaky gut and celiac disease

You know, upon further reflection, it was two of my children that we

specifically tested for celiac disease. Neither had it. I think I will have

to look into that for myself. What is the name of the test so that I can

order it?

Thanks,

Ligure

_____

From: Ian Kemp [mailto:ianandsue.kemp@...]

Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 1:55 PM

Subject: Leaky gut and celiac disease

Ligure,

You say you have tested negative for celiac disease but was it a specific

test for that? Feedback from this group seems to suggest that the majority

have some sort of immune system problem, which very often seems to be linked

to leaky gut. There is a general test for leaky gut (also known as

intestinal permeability) involving testing the absorption/permeation of a

solution of microparticles of various sizes which you drink. From our

experience we would say that anyone suffering chronic fatigue, ME, MCS or ES

symptoms would be well advised to do this test - we wish we had done it a

lot earlier than we did. Sue tested positive for leaky gut but negative for

the more specific celiac disease.

Ian

Re: Re: Is ES an allergy? (Explanation part 2)

Hi, Ligure,

My understanding of allergies is much different than yours. It was

explained to me that we aquire allergies when our bodies cannot break down

the components of a particular food or chemical, etc, into a usable unit.

Anything that is not usable AND gets into the blood stream is considered by

the body to be an antigen. Our immune systems are encoded to attack

antigens. Foreign substances get into our blood streams via tight junctions

(like bricks in a wall, which form the wall of the gut, for instance) which

are usually closed and are supposed to be closed, but react to glutens and a

few other things by opening. (I have read that EMFs cause tight junctions

to open.) As a celiac I am aware of this because celiacs have tight

junctions which stay open not only in the small intestine, but in the blood

brain barrier and lungs. (Some say also the heart.) This is why celiacs

have such a high incidence of auto-immune disease--the immune system is

always attacking something or other, usually undigested food particles.

Our bodies cannot use many nutrients without " carriers " which escort each

assigned nutrient across the intestinal wall at particular sites. B12, for

instance, which you mention having problems with, is assigned a particular

site where it crosses and this is also one of the first sites to be damaged

in celiac disease or from gluten intolerance. The site for calcium is also

one of the first to be damaged by gluten intolerance and cd. It sounds to

me like you do not have an allergy to either of these, but instead have

gluten intolerance or celiac disease. In celiac disease, you must not eat

any glutens which are contained in wheat, rye, barley, and oats (by

contamination). Nor can you eat any derivitives of these. In 6 months or

so of avoidance, your small intestine will begin to heal and this will cure

you of your " allergy " to B12 and calcium. I had problems with these

nutrients as well. When I was finally dxed with cd, I had osteoporosis from

calcium deficiency and a dexa scan of -3.50. Two years after going

glutenfree, my dexa score had improved to +1.75.

I am not saying that NAET or Bioset cannot work (I know nothing of either,

btw). But if they work they do it on a different principal than simply

" retraining " . What exactly is NAET and Bioset? Have these worked, for

instance, for your allergies to B12 and calcium?

Diane

Ligure <reiki@...> wrote:

And now the different level.

Given that the body has a means of taking care of its allergen/toxic load

(part 1), why did it accumulate the load in the first place? Or more to the

point why do some folks have an allergy to some substance while others do

not? These questions have plagued me.

So, the body responds to an allergen because it was trained to do so. This

may seem strange (at least it did to me) considering that there are many

people's bodies which do not adversely respond to a given allergen (i.e.

wheat) while others have a problem with it. How did the body acquire such an

adverse response? Some might say genetics. I am going to lay that one aside

just because that is the typical catchall when the " expoerts " don't know the

answer.

It may be the " answer " in some cases, but there or other answers that can be

found before we throw in the genetic towel.

How else was the body trained? Simple explanations are in order.

Prolonged exposure, over exposure, or exposure at the wrong place It often

happens that where at one time one has no allergic response to something to

discover one day that they can no longer tolerate it. This occurs because

the immune system got engaged at a deeper level than it once needed to or

" decided " to engage the substance in an adversarial fashion. One example of

this is the " leaky gut " syndrome. If the digestive system does not

metabolize the bread and break its proteins down into amino acids, the

immune system will engage the proteins as if they were foreign substances

and develop an allergy.

I because allergic to calcium and B12 in this way. And both of these are

needed by the body.

Immune system is weak during exposure

This can happen by weakened associaiton. For instance if you are weakened by

exposure to some chemical and you are eating bread during that exposure,

your immune system may mistakenly react to the bread. The weakness may not

be physical even. It could be emotional,

I am sure there are other ways of training, but they are similar.

Now the question is how to " untrain " the response.

This is where the next level begins. Through energetic-type of medicine like

NAET and Bioset the body's immune system is retaught to no longer consider a

substance as an allergen. It sort of makes peace with the allergen and turns

it into a peacable neighbor. So instead of having an attacking type of

response which leads to histamine reactions and thus cascade into an

allergic response it allow the substance to coexist and even just pass on

through the body if the substance is of no use.

Now this energetic medicine goes to the level that your body's " field "

can tell

when it comes in proximity to a substances " field " what that substance it.

If

your body does not want that substance (i.e. allergic response), it will

begin to respond accordingly.

---------------------------------

Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Guest guest]

Hi again, Ian,

I know of a number of celiacs who became celiac after a round of anti-biotics.

I think some of these anti-bs open the tight junctions, just like celiac does.

Also, I don't know if this is applicable to Sue or not, but my nutritionist

tells me I will never be able to go back to a regular diet including sugar and

sweeteners. He says that people who have had candida for many years never

completely kill it off; they just learn to control it. He told me that I will

be on a modified form of the candida diet from now on (low carb, few fruits and

starches, no sugars or sweeteners, no processed foods, little or no yeast, etc

and no glutens due to celiac disease). In addition, every 6 months I will need

to go on a germicidal/fungicidal for a month or two to keep candida/bacterial

issues in check. I am still in the initial killing phase, btw--been there for

over a year.

Diane

Ian Kemp <ianandsue.kemp@...> wrote:

Thanks Diane. You've clarified the point I was trying to make. Leaky gut

and celiac disease are not the same. Either may cause immune system

problems. Therefore, testing for one will not rule out the other. Both are

potentially important.

In Sue's case, she has tested positive for leaky gut but not for celiac, and

cutting wheat and gluten out of her diet made only a marginal improvement

(and she showed a separate intolerance to these anyway, along with many

other foods). We are now convinced that the leaky gut has a major bearing

on her entire history of problems. The supporting evidence is that she was

100% healthy until a prolonged dose of antibiotics 7 years ago, got ME/CFS,

was cured of the physical exhaustion symptoms by an anti-candida diet, but

has gradually gone downhill since. It seems that some residual damage

and/or bacteria were left behind. After the diet worked, we did not follow

up with antifungals as recommended - possibly a mistake.

Ian

---------------------------------

Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Guest guest]

> In addition, every 6 months I will

> need to go on a germicidal/fungicidal for a month or two to keep

> candida/bacterial issues in check.

I think that's probably wrong. I used to live on

germicidals/fungicidals

(mostly citrus seed extracts), but I haven't had to take any of these

for

years. I do however get a lot of probiotics on a daily basis (kombucha

" tea " , raw milk, soil based probiotics, and regular probiotics)

Marc

[Guest guest]

Hi Diane,

Interesting what you say about sugar - certainly Sue has never been able to

go back to it, it gives her instant itching and sometimes brain fog. I

don't think anyone ever eliminates candida - for normal healthy people it's

permanently present in the gut. But it does seem that one can get

sensitized to it, or to its reaction with sugar. Seems a bit like

alcoholism (absolutely no disrespect intended, it just seems to be a

parallel) where one can never take even a small dose again without getting

severe symptoms.

Ian

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Evie

Sent: 17 May 2006 03:54

Subject: RE: Leaky gut and celiac disease

Hi again, Ian,

I know of a number of celiacs who became celiac after a round of

anti-biotics. I think some of these anti-bs open the tight junctions, just

like celiac does.

Also, I don't know if this is applicable to Sue or not, but my

nutritionist tells me I will never be able to go back to a regular diet

including sugar and sweeteners. He says that people who have had candida

for many years never completely kill it off; they just learn to control it.

He told me that I will be on a modified form of the candida diet from now on

(low carb, few fruits and starches, no sugars or sweeteners, no processed

foods, little or no yeast, etc and no glutens due to celiac disease). In

addition, every 6 months I will need to go on a germicidal/fungicidal for a

month or two to keep candida/bacterial issues in check. I am still in the

initial killing phase, btw--been there for over a year.

Diane

Ian Kemp <ianandsue.kemp@...> wrote:

Thanks Diane. You've clarified the point I was trying to make. Leaky gut

and celiac disease are not the same. Either may cause immune system

problems. Therefore, testing for one will not rule out the other. Both are

potentially important.

In Sue's case, she has tested positive for leaky gut but not for celiac, and

cutting wheat and gluten out of her diet made only a marginal improvement

(and she showed a separate intolerance to these anyway, along with many

other foods). We are now convinced that the leaky gut has a major bearing

on her entire history of problems. The supporting evidence is that she was

100% healthy until a prolonged dose of antibiotics 7 years ago, got ME/CFS,

was cured of the physical exhaustion symptoms by an anti-candida diet, but

has gradually gone downhill since. It seems that some residual damage

and/or bacteria were left behind. After the diet worked, we did not follow

up with antifungals as recommended - possibly a mistake.

Ian

---------------------------------

Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Marc,

No, that is what my nutritionist told me. He said for the rest of my life I

will need to kill off bacteria and fungi on a regular basis. He said years from

now I might try to extend that to 8 months and then to once a year, to see if

there was a particular time period I could go, but definitely he was talking

about killing them off with germicidals/fungicidals.

The difference could be that you do not have a propensity toward these because

you are not celiac or did not have leaky gut or did not have this problem for a

long period of time??? I am guessing here, but my nutritionist said there are

some who do not have to do this, but the great majority who have had

bacterial/fungal issues, especiallythose who have for many years, cannot go back

to a normal diet or go long without addressing fungal/bacterial residuals

periodically. This has also been the concensus when I have talked to most

others who have been treated for these. I'd guess you are one of the lucky

ones!

Diane

Marc <marc@...> wrote:

> In addition, every 6 months I will

> need to go on a germicidal/fungicidal for a month or two to keep

> candida/bacterial issues in check.

I think that's probably wrong. I used to live on

germicidals/fungicidals

(mostly citrus seed extracts), but I haven't had to take any of these

for

years. I do however get a lot of probiotics on a daily basis (kombucha

" tea " , raw milk, soil based probiotics, and regular probiotics)

Marc

[Guest guest]

Hi Ian,

I think that the difference between normal healthy people and people like Sue

and me is the leaky gut. In normal people, the candida stays in the gut. With

Sue and me, we could have it thru-out our tissues. I had jaw joint tissue that

was dead and doctors just called it " necrosis " , but my nutritionist said it

could have been from candida/other bacteria.

Diane

Ian Kemp <ianandsue.kemp@...> wrote:

Hi Diane,

Interesting what you say about sugar - certainly Sue has never been able to

go back to it, it gives her instant itching and sometimes brain fog. I

don't think anyone ever eliminates candida - for normal healthy people it's

permanently present in the gut. But it does seem that one can get

sensitized to it, or to its reaction with sugar. Seems a bit like

alcoholism (absolutely no disrespect intended, it just seems to be a

parallel) where one can never take even a small dose again without getting

severe symptoms.

Ian

---------------------------------

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