Re: Re: CRON sleep

[Guest guest]

Rodney,

Whatever the reason, I definitely have a problem sleeping through the night.

I thought it might be lack of consistent exercise, but with recently introduced (4 mo. ago) workouts three times a week, weights and walking, I still don't sleep through. I usually make up the lost hours in a nap sometime during the day.

Then I found that by taking a Tylenol, arthritis strength or Bayer Aspirin for arthritis, at bedtime or thereabouts, I slept longer. If I don't get a full 7-8 hours and can't get back to sleep after awakening, I do get up. A couple of weeks of short hours puts me into a tailspin and all I want to do is sleep; at my age I listen to the bod and just sleep until I'm satisfied. It would be nice to find something so that I could get my 8 hours each evening.

Another observation, if I have overnight visitors , I sleep through without any problem. Is this the anxiety sleeplessness syndrome mentioned on that web site, Rodney? I really think my problem is more pain related.

I'm off to bed now and will read the articles in the morning. It's been a long day with a workout, rose pruning and moving about 7 cu. yds. of mulch this afternoon. Little time for eating and I'm not hungry.

Thanks for your insight. - Ruth

From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@...>

Reply-

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:08:57 -0000

Subject: [ ] Re: CRON sleep

Hi Aequalsz:

There was a fairly extensive discussion of insomnia here a few months

back. The date, as you can see below, was around 23 February. Lots

of other suggestions there, including the results of a brief survey

conducted by Francesca. Here is one of my contributions (fwiw):

" From: " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:21 am

Subject: Re: Insomnia

Hi folks:

Well here is another of my hypotheses (!). IMO there are very good

reasons why older people do not sleep well at night. It has been

bred into the species because families/groups in which the older

folks (OFs) did not sleep well had a survival advantage compared

with those where they slept right through the night. This is how it

works:

It would not be good for the group in the cave if those aged 15 to 40

did not sleep well. They are needed to do the back-breaking work the

following day. They need a good night's sleep. But it didn't much

matter if the OFs were awake in early hours. They didn't have much

work of an onerous nature to do the following day.

The reason having the OFs awake at 4 am is an advantage is that when

the guys from the cave up the street were hungry and came over in the

middle of the night to pick off their neighbours in preparation for

lunch the next day, the OFs WERE AWAKE, could hear the approaching

danger, and could wake the 15-40 year old warriors in time to defend

the cave before it was overrun.

The result was that the groups where the OFs slept well were

gradually eliminated from the population by being eaten for lunch by

the people from the cave next door. After many many generations the

only humans left were those that had had warning of approaching

trouble at 4 am - from the OFs who couldn't sleep. So the only

humans alive today are the descendants of the groups whose OFs

couldn't sleep. Evolution had selected the poor-sleeping OF groups

because of their survival advantage.

So expecting to sleep well after age 50 is fighting against many many

million years of evolution.

The above is just my opinion. More on it another time, perhaps.

Rodney. "

--- In , " aequalsz " <aequalsz@y...>

wrote:

> Some CRONies have mentioned trouble sleeping and I've noticed that

I

> require less sleep now when on my " CRONish " diet. Often wake up in

> the early morning hours and feel this hollow feeling in my stomach -

> think my stomach is trying to tell my brain that I'm actually

> starving and it wants to be fed. (This must be similar to the way

> some of our Paleolithic ancestors felt when they were actually

> starving.)

>

> On the other hand, perhaps this sleep problem is related to

> something else. An informative web site (which I plan to read next

> thing.) is,

>

> http://sciencedaily.healthology.com/diduknow.asp?

> n=nptdiduknow_default & f=sleep_disorders & c=dyk_sleepanxiety & spg=DYKT

>

> http://snipurl.com/8s0p

>

> Do many of you CRONies have sleeping problems and is it due to the

> fact that your body is trying to tell you that it is starving?

> Guess the best solution I've found to a restful sleep is when

waking

> up in the middle of the night, to take a melatonin pill. And a tad

> of tryptophan helps also. O.K. my goal is to sleep 8 hours tonight

> and feel like $500,000 tomorrow.

>

> Aequalsz

[Guest guest]

I don't know how it is with bench pressers, but I found if I pick the right foods, I'm not hungry. Flavors, salt, sugar added to food tend to make me hungry. Once in a while I may get a little hungry and I eat a tblsp of peanut butter, but that's it. I eat usually 350 kcals for breakfast, the major meal about 1PM and snack at supper.

If I work outdoors, I estimate 100 kcals per hour, or 300 kcals per hour walking. And I add that to my H-B calculated requirement. So if I'm short 100 kcals I will lose a little weight, and I calculate that by estimating that 1/3 is fat and 2/3 is glucose. For the 2/3 glucose I lose 6 oz of water per 100 kcals, or 4 oz in this case. 4 oz plus 1 oz carbo plus 1/3 fat = 5 1/3 oz weight.

Notice that's 3.3 # for 10 days - much too fast, so I have to control to less than 100 kcals deficit per day.

So maybe your hunger is indicating you expended more energy than you thought. I could always estimate the work done when lifting precise weights, but most of the machines were indeterminate so I stuck with walking, mild weights - more reps. My goal was to burn fat, not make more muscle.

I can do that remarkably well now after experimenting for several years. Dropping slowly doesn't seem to effect my hunger much.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: aequalsz

Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 7:55 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: CRON sleep

> We're not starving on CR.> Do you mean hungry? > Well my body sometimes "thinks" it's starving but I'm sure it is actually well nourished. Actual starvation, as depicted by the movie, "Without Borders" is something quite different than what even the most dedicated or extreme CRONie experiences. Apparently hardly anyone in our country knows what real starvation is like. Would be curious how much distress is caused by the typical CRON induced hunger. I usually treat my eating habits like a marathon race, start out slow and save a lot for the last, so I tend to get hungry about 10 AM and sometimes at 4 PM if I don't jog a 3 miler on my treadmill. Sometimes after 4 or 5 days of observing my diet strictly, I begin to sense that some additional food is required and will do a bit of binging. Probably why my weight is coming down rather slowly - but that's OK I suppose. Because I'm still trying to meet most of my 25 yo stats, ie 155 lbs, bench press 275, waistline 30 inches (impossible to meet that one.) Don't have a chance on sexual prowess - but one has to age gracefully. And with a current shoulder injury I'm having a little difficulty bench pressing right at the moment - may take quite a while to get back in shape.AequalszPS Still was able to bench press 250 lbs about 5 years ago so think there is still hope to eventually make the 275. Besides am "only" 57 yo.

[Guest guest]

Ruth: welcome to the older folks no sleep club as Rodney says........

Interesting that you sleep through the night when you have overnight

visitors. Could it be that the extra effort you expend in anticipation of

visitors (shopping, cooking, cleaning etc) gives you just enough extra

activity to lull you off to sleep at night? In my case visitors don't help

and in fact the excitement of visitor sometimes causes even less sleep.

I've tried everything and sleep is sometimes so elusive that even a sleeping

pill doesn't do it. My husband sometimes gets as little as 3 hours a night

but in his case he can function fine. As mentioned a few posts ago, I'm now

doing yaga and so far no sleep benefits from it. Yoga's benefits come

slowly though. I'm planning on continuing the yoga (at least that's my

intention) whether it helps with sleep or not.......

on 8/31/2004 11:41 PM, Ruth at cccucc@... wrote:

> Rodney,

>

> Whatever the reason, I definitely have a problem sleeping through the night.

>

> I thought it might be lack of consistent exercise, but with recently

> introduced (4 mo. ago) workouts three times a week, weights and walking, I

> still don't sleep through. I usually make up the lost hours in a nap

> sometime during the day.

>

> Then I found that by taking a Tylenol, arthritis strength or Bayer Aspirin

> for arthritis, at bedtime or thereabouts, I slept longer. If I don't get a

> full 7-8 hours and can't get back to sleep after awakening, I do get up. A

> couple of weeks of short hours puts me into a tailspin and all I want to do

> is sleep; at my age I listen to the bod and just sleep until I'm satisfied.

> It would be nice to find something so that I could get my 8 hours each

> evening.

>

> Another observation, if I have overnight visitors , I sleep through without

> any problem. Is this the anxiety sleeplessness syndrome mentioned on that

> web site, Rodney? I really think my problem is more pain related.

>

> I'm off to bed now and will read the articles in the morning. It's been a

> long day with a workout, rose pruning and moving about 7 cu. yds. of mulch

> this afternoon. Little time for eating and I'm not hungry.

>

> Thanks for your insight. - Ruth

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/2/04 9:36:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, loganruns73@... writes:

In older folks, after ruling everything else out, I would point the

finger at CRON excaberating their already low melatonin levels. So

supplementing with melatonin an hour before bedtime (or right at

bedtime with delayed release) seems prudent.

Hi. Under low-calorie conditions, why wouldn't the melatonin be simply broken down and burned as fuel?

--

Ken

[Guest guest]

As an older CRONIE and one who often finds it hard to get a good nights

sleep, I have tried melatonin as an antidote (among everything else).

Sleep is a not well understood and is a complex subject.

As I said, I've tried just about everything under the sun with little

success. One comfort to me is that it's an almost universal phenomena as

one gets older. Perhaps Rodney's hypothesis is correct.

on 9/2/2004 9:49 AM, bpinfo@... at bpinfo@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/2/04 9:36:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> loganruns73@... writes:

>

>> In older folks, after ruling everything else out, I would point the

>> finger at CRON excaberating their already low melatonin levels. So

>> supplementing with melatonin an hour before bedtime (or right at

>> bedtime with delayed release) seems prudent.

>

> Hi. Under low-calorie conditions, why wouldn't the melatonin be simply broken

> down and burned as fuel?

[Guest guest]

Yes, but you also can buy and take melatonin in tablet form. Since it is a protein hormone, can't it be cleaved into amino acids, turned into glucose and used as fuel if the body needs fuel - just like any protein?

The same question would apply to other things, like glucosamine and inositol (which are sugars), fish oil EFAs and so on. If they can be used as fuel, then it would be wise to not waste them by taking them only with some food as a source of calories.

-

Ken

In a message dated 9/2/04 8:17:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, loganruns73@... writes:

It's my understanding melatonin is a hormone released by the pineal

gland in the brain, not a macronutrient that can be used for energy.

Logan

>Hi. Under low-calorie conditions, why wouldn't the melatonin be

simply broken

>down and burned as fuel?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/2/04 10:51:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, citpeks@... writes:

Melatonin is not a protein. According to the following link, which

has the structural formula, "Melatonin is a naturally occurring

substance classified as a simple indole alkaloid and derivative of

tryptamine (Cordell, 1978).

thanks, Tony. I stand corrected. Apparently, there are three kinds of hormones: protein (like insulin, which does get broken down in digestion and so can't be taken orally), lipid based (steroids), and finally the amine derivatives like melatonin - as you pointed out.

--

Ken

[Guest guest]

To be a bit pedantic, insulin is a polypeptide hormome, not quite a protein, but composed of the same molecules (amino acids), just not quite as large enough to qualify as a protein.

>From: bpinfo@... >Reply- > >Subject: Re: [ ] Re: CRON sleep >Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 00:10:24 EDT > >In a message dated 9/2/04 10:51:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >citpeks@... writes: > > > Melatonin is not a protein. According to the following link, which > > has the structural formula, "Melatonin is a naturally occurring > > substance classified as a simple indole alkaloid and derivative of > > tryptamine (Cordell, 1978). > >thanks, Tony. I stand corrected. Apparently, there are three kinds of >hormones: protein (like insulin, which does get broken down in digestion and so can't >be taken orally), lipid based (steroids), and finally the amine derivatives >like melatonin - as you pointed out. > >-- > >Ken > > > >

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/3/04 3:23:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dowlic@... writes:

To be a bit pedantic, insulin is a polypeptide hormome, not quite a protein

I, for one, appreciate the fine details - at least so far

Still, does anybody know the answer to my question: do inositol and glucosamine (both technically are sugars) get burned as fuel if the body is needing fuel when those supplements are taken? How about fish oil?

As an example, I would not take whey on an empty stomach and then go without eating for several hours, because the relatively expensive whey would only end up being used as a relatively inefficient fuel.

--

Ken

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/6/04 5:32:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fskelton@... writes:

Check our file on "How much exercise?" under "CRON SCIENCE".

Thanks, Francesca, but I had already looked there and found only links to previous posts that approach it the other way around - i.e., exercise as promoting longevity. What I was asking was about maintaining strength, while using CR to achieve longevity.

I asked because, for certain reasons, I had very little food recently for a few days and experienced about a 5% strength loss. But there were other factors present, too.

Anyone have similar experience?

--

Ken

[Guest guest]

Check our file on " How much exercise? " under " CRON SCIENCE " .

on 9/6/2004 4:32 PM, forbpinfo at bpinfo@... wrote:

> --- In , " aequalsz " <aequalsz@y...> >

>> Because I'm still trying to meet most of my 25 yo stats, ie 155

> lbs,

>> bench press 275, waistline 30 inches (impossible to meet that

> one.)

>> Aequalsz

>>

>

> do you have any observations on maintaining strength while being on

> restricted calories?

[Guest guest]

comments below

-----Original Message-----From: bpinfo@... [mailto:bpinfo@...]

Thanks, Francesca, but I had already looked there and found only links to previous posts that approach it the other way around - i.e., exercise as promoting longevity. What I was asking was about maintaining strength, while using CR to achieve longevity.I asked because, for certain reasons, I had very little food recently for a few days and experienced about a 5% strength loss. But there were other factors present, too.Anyone have similar experience?-- Ken

=================

While this is just from several years of personal experience. While not a power lifter I am pleased to be bench pressing (on a machine) 20+ lbs more than I weigh. Not big time for real weight lifters, but better than the advice I've read that old suckers my age shouldn't bench more than half our weight :-)

Re: your question, I have experienced a several % strength modulation based on creatine levels in muscle tissue (thus the creatine monohydrate supplement business). No doubt low intake of beef (or creatine containing foods) and a negative energy balance may reduce normal tissue levels.

A negative energy balance will also reduce glycogen stores in muscles. This will impact endurance capacity. So depending upon whether you're doing volume (high reps) or low volume strength workouts. Either creatine or glycogen levels could have an impact.

It seems logical at some point that weight training with a negative energy balance diet may be a zero sum game where protein to repair and rebuild working muscle will be stolen from other parts of our body, kind of like a marathon runner's upper body.

JR