Re: Phone mast allergy in the mind

[Guest guest]

I've read the study and the initial comments on Powerwatch.

The study has some good points, but the data analysis seems to

be biased. Here's my take in detail:

This is one of those papers that does not find what the punch line says it

> finds.

> They *did* find an effect, and it was very significant, of increased

> arousal of sensitives under G3 exposure. They then used a post-hoc analysis

> to try to explain that away (and seemed quite convinced they had, but a post

> hoc analysis must be reproduced on separate data, and this was not done).

> Equally interesting, their data seems to show a significant ability for

> sensitives to tell when the signal is present, while the control group could

> not. It appears the sensitive group was correct 152 of 264 times

> (inferred, probably not the exact numbers), while the control group was

> right 368 out of 720 times. This is significant at p<.05, and this is

> without even worrying that some of the sensitives may belong with the

> controls and vice versa.

>

> It is also not clear (to me at least) how well the signals used replicate

> real mast signals, as there is no discussion of voice or data modulation.

> From my reading I suppose that they replicated the carrier frequencies and

> time pulses, but added no data modulation. This could have a big effect on

> the bandwidth and strikes me as potentially huge caveat, given the sweeping

> conclusions these authors claim to have reached.

>

> I agree that some aspects of the experimental design are commendable.

> Howerver, there should have been some measurement of the ambient magnetic

> field in the test room and any waiting rooms (ELF and RF) as there is no

> mention of ELF shielding. Also, given that the number of participants fell

> short of the number the experimenters felt would be necessary for reasonable

> power, this paper certainly should not be interpreted as disproving that

> EMFs cause EHS.

J. Bruno, Ph.D.

P.S.: What is striking about the paper is that the blind well-being scores

> track the open scores quite well in most cases. The open scores were highly

> significant, using a conservative Bonferroni correction. I believe that

> more than one dimension of well-being would have been significant without

> the correction, and this argues for a weaker correction, or a lumped

> analysis. Again, one should not say that no effect was observed; rather the

> observed effect fell short of statistical significance in a study that did

> not have much power.

>

On 7/25/07, Marc <marc@...> wrote:

>

> Hi all,

>

> Well, of course someone has funded a study to show

> that there's no such thing as ES:

>

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm

>

> Can't believe much you read in the press, anyway... :-)

>

> Marc

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi all,

>

> Well, of course someone has funded a study to show

> that there's no such thing as ES:

>

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm

>

> Can't believe much you read in the press, anyway... :-)

>

> Marc

>

Yes, I heard about this and I actually wonder if they are aware that

electrosensitivity is officially recognised in several countries like

Sweden. The thing is that the quote from someone saying it's all in

the mind, why would anyone want to be electrosensitive or sensitive

to specifically masts? They obviously wouldn't, and I'm sure that

alot of peoples symptoms came first, before they even knew what

electrosensitivity was, so this group of people clearly have not read

about ES before " deciding " they are sensitive, they just are

sensitive for real.

[Guest guest]

Yes, this is the study which has been going on for some years at the

University of Essex, which various UK ES people have ground their teeth

about periodically while it was being done! In case anyone puts it forward

as an anti-ES argument, the following points might be noted.

1. It was held at the University site - so anyone with severe ES who can't

travel was unable to attend.

2. Five subjects with severe ES who were unable to complete the tests

because of the pain experienced were simply excluded from the results. (this

info is second hand but I believe originates from Alasdair of

Powerwatch, I have also heard from a separate source that some people were

unable to continue)

3. Exposures were to a given frequency of MW mast signal for a total period

of under 1 hour, so that people who were not sensitive to that particular

frequency would not register a positive reaction.

4. The researchers were psychologists, not medical - which implies a lot

about what they expected to find!

Basically, 1 and 2 excluded the people who might be expected to react most

strongly (severely ES), and the exposure time was short enough that

moderately ES people might not experience a reaction.

An interesting parallel that I thought of would be this:

1. A study is done on disability. It is held on an upper floor of a building

with stairs and no lift. All the people appearing for testing can walk,

therefore severe disability does not exist.

2. A study is to be done on allergies. People are collected with various

allergies; bee stings, nuts, pollen, solvents, dust mites etc. All are

exposed to pollen. Only a few develop hayfever. Therefore, allergies and

hayfever do not exist, and for the few people who do display a reaction, it

is obviously all in the mind.

3. A study is done on lung cancer. People show no obvious ill effect after

1 hour of smoking cigarettes, therefore there is no link between smoking and

cancer.

4. A painting is to be examined to see whether it is a Titian or an expert

forgery. The person responsible for devising the test and making the

assessment is an amateur photographer.

Ian

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marc

Sent: 25 July 2007 19:56

esens

Subject: Phone mast allergy " in the mind "

Hi all,

Well, of course someone has funded a study to show

that there's no such thing as ES:

http://news. <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm>

bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm

Can't believe much you read in the press, anyway... :-)

Marc

[Guest guest]

Small correction; it actually states in the article that 12 people dropped

out of the study due to illness, and 44 " sensitives " and 114 controls were

tested. Assuming that those who dropped out were sensitive, it means that

over 20% (44 out of 56) of the test group were unable to complete the tests.

This is a very high proportion, especially if these " illnesses " happened to

suddenly manifest themselves on the day, in the test environment..... To

then say that only 2 of the remaining 44 could detect the emissions

consistently is a rather flawed sample.

Ian

_____

From: Ian Kemp [mailto:ianandsue.kemp@...]

Sent: 26 July 2007 18:42

' '

Subject: RE: Phone mast allergy " in the mind "

Yes, this is the study which has been going on for some years at the

University of Essex, which various UK ES people have ground their teeth

about periodically while it was being done! In case anyone puts it forward

as an anti-ES argument, the following points might be noted.

1. It was held at the University site - so anyone with severe ES who can't

travel was unable to attend.

2. Five subjects with severe ES who were unable to complete the tests

because of the pain experienced were simply excluded from the results. (this

info is second hand but I believe originates from Alasdair of

Powerwatch, I have also heard from a separate source that some people were

unable to continue)

3. Exposures were to a given frequency of MW mast signal for a total period

of under 1 hour, so that people who were not sensitive to that particular

frequency would not register a positive reaction.

4. The researchers were psychologists, not medical - which implies a lot

about what they expected to find!

Basically, 1 and 2 excluded the people who might be expected to react most

strongly (severely ES), and the exposure time was short enough that

moderately ES people might not experience a reaction.

An interesting parallel that I thought of would be this:

1. A study is done on disability. It is held on an upper floor of a building

with stairs and no lift. All the people appearing for testing can walk,

therefore severe disability does not exist.

2. A study is to be done on allergies. People are collected with various

allergies; bee stings, nuts, pollen, solvents, dust mites etc. All are

exposed to pollen. Only a few develop hayfever. Therefore, allergies and

hayfever do not exist, and for the few people who do display a reaction, it

is obviously all in the mind.

3. A study is done on lung cancer. People show no obvious ill effect after

1 hour of smoking cigarettes, therefore there is no link between smoking and

cancer.

4. A painting is to be examined to see whether it is a Titian or an expert

forgery. The person responsible for devising the test and making the

assessment is an amateur photographer.

Ian

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Marc

Sent: 25 July 2007 19:56

esens

Subject: Phone mast allergy " in the mind "

Hi all,

Well, of course someone has funded a study to show

that there's no such thing as ES:

http://news. <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm>

bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm

Can't believe much you read in the press, anyway... :-)

Marc

[Guest guest]

Ian, you have made some excellent points, especially the comparisons

at the bottom. (i wonder if the Guardian would print it?)

I could not attend because the University was 200 miles from me. As

if the long journey via London were not enough, i remember also that

the visit would have involved an overnight stay. Obviously the team

were unable to recommend any hotels that might be suitable for an ES

person to stay in!

There was also an issue over the expenses allowed for participants,

they were very low, allowing only really for local people to attend

the experiments. (the hotel would have been at my expense).

Furthermore, if a participant had to drop out of the study, which

took place over a number of months, then no expenses would be

refunded, and the particpant would be left footing the bill.

jane (previously canaryuk)

>

> Yes, this is the study which has been going on for some years at the

> University of Essex, which various UK ES people have ground their

teeth

> about periodically while it was being done! In case anyone puts it

forward

> as an anti-ES argument, the following points might be noted.

>

> 1. It was held at the University site - so anyone with severe ES

who can't

> travel was unable to attend.

> 2. Five subjects with severe ES who were unable to complete the

tests

> because of the pain experienced were simply excluded from the

results. (this

> info is second hand but I believe originates from Alasdair

of

> Powerwatch, I have also heard from a separate source that some

people were

> unable to continue)

> 3. Exposures were to a given frequency of MW mast signal for a

total period

> of under 1 hour, so that people who were not sensitive to that

particular

> frequency would not register a positive reaction.

> 4. The researchers were psychologists, not medical - which implies

a lot

> about what they expected to find!

>

> Basically, 1 and 2 excluded the people who might be expected to

react most

> strongly (severely ES), and the exposure time was short enough that

> moderately ES people might not experience a reaction.

>

> An interesting parallel that I thought of would be this:

> 1. A study is done on disability. It is held on an upper floor of a

building

> with stairs and no lift. All the people appearing for testing can

walk,

> therefore severe disability does not exist.

> 2. A study is to be done on allergies. People are collected with

various

> allergies; bee stings, nuts, pollen, solvents, dust mites etc. All

are

> exposed to pollen. Only a few develop hayfever. Therefore,

allergies and

> hayfever do not exist, and for the few people who do display a

reaction, it

> is obviously all in the mind.

> 3. A study is done on lung cancer. People show no obvious ill

effect after

> 1 hour of smoking cigarettes, therefore there is no link between

smoking and

> cancer.

> 4. A painting is to be examined to see whether it is a Titian or an

expert

> forgery. The person responsible for devising the test and making

the

> assessment is an amateur photographer.

>

> Ian

>

> _____

>

> From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of Marc

>

> Sent: 25 July 2007 19:56

> esens

> Subject: Phone mast allergy " in the mind "

>

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> Well, of course someone has funded a study to show

> that there's no such thing as ES:

>

> http://news. <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm>

> bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm

>

> Can't believe much you read in the press, anyway... :-)

>

> Marc

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jane. It's very interesting to have testimony on the circumstances

under which this trials was carried out. It shows that it would have been

ineffective in allowing severely ES people to participate. Hence, it cannot

be used as evidence to " disprove " a link between ES and mast exposure,

contrary to the media reports (though I take the point made elsewhere that

the Essex researchers did not actually claim this!)

Ian

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of

asurisuk

Sent: 27 July 2007 16:40

Subject: Re: Phone mast allergy " in the mind "

Ian, you have made some excellent points, especially the comparisons

at the bottom. (i wonder if the Guardian would print it?)

I could not attend because the University was 200 miles from me. As

if the long journey via London were not enough, i remember also that

the visit would have involved an overnight stay. Obviously the team

were unable to recommend any hotels that might be suitable for an ES

person to stay in!

There was also an issue over the expenses allowed for participants,

they were very low, allowing only really for local people to attend

the experiments. (the hotel would have been at my expense).

Furthermore, if a participant had to drop out of the study, which

took place over a number of months, then no expenses would be

refunded, and the particpant would be left footing the bill.

jane (previously canaryuk)

>

> Yes, this is the study which has been going on for some years at the

> University of Essex, which various UK ES people have ground their

teeth

> about periodically while it was being done! In case anyone puts it

forward

> as an anti-ES argument, the following points might be noted.

>

> 1. It was held at the University site - so anyone with severe ES

who can't

> travel was unable to attend.

> 2. Five subjects with severe ES who were unable to complete the

tests

> because of the pain experienced were simply excluded from the

results. (this

> info is second hand but I believe originates from Alasdair

of

> Powerwatch, I have also heard from a separate source that some

people were

> unable to continue)

> 3. Exposures were to a given frequency of MW mast signal for a

total period

> of under 1 hour, so that people who were not sensitive to that

particular

> frequency would not register a positive reaction.

> 4. The researchers were psychologists, not medical - which implies

a lot

> about what they expected to find!

>

> Basically, 1 and 2 excluded the people who might be expected to

react most

> strongly (severely ES), and the exposure time was short enough that

> moderately ES people might not experience a reaction.

>

> An interesting parallel that I thought of would be this:

> 1. A study is done on disability. It is held on an upper floor of a

building

> with stairs and no lift. All the people appearing for testing can

walk,

> therefore severe disability does not exist.

> 2. A study is to be done on allergies. People are collected with

various

> allergies; bee stings, nuts, pollen, solvents, dust mites etc. All

are

> exposed to pollen. Only a few develop hayfever. Therefore,

allergies and

> hayfever do not exist, and for the few people who do display a

reaction, it

> is obviously all in the mind.

> 3. A study is done on lung cancer. People show no obvious ill

effect after

> 1 hour of smoking cigarettes, therefore there is no link between

smoking and

> cancer.

> 4. A painting is to be examined to see whether it is a Titian or an

expert

> forgery. The person responsible for devising the test and making

the

> assessment is an amateur photographer.

>

> Ian

>

> _____

>

> From: groups (DOT) <mailto:%40> com

[mailto:groups (DOT) <mailto:%40> com] On

Behalf Of Marc

>

> Sent: 25 July 2007 19:56

> esensgroups (DOT) <mailto:esens%40> com

> Subject: Phone mast allergy " in the mind "

>

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> Well, of course someone has funded a study to show

> that there's no such thing as ES:

>

> http://news. <http://news. <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm>

bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm>

> bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm

>

> Can't believe much you read in the press, anyway... :-)

>

> Marc

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think the only way that anyone can even begin to start considering

provocation studies is if a clinic/retreat centre is set up first

which has been tried and tested by ES people as a place where their

symptoms improve. (I guess i'm thinking of something along the lines

of that MCS place in Texas). Even then the study would take months

during which time those with ES would have to stay at the centre,

possibly resting for weeks inbetween each exposure, for the most

severely affected by the illness.

I reckon that a proper study of the illness will more likely come

from a private source, from people who would be able to afford to

attend such a clinic. I guess the Breakspear is doing something in

that direction. But really what we need is a clinic where people can

stay and feel better. It is only from a point of wellness that tests

could be done to discover what makes sufferers feel worse. Its

ridiculous testing people who turn up already feeling ill. Utterly

pointless!!

> >

> > Yes, this is the study which has been going on for some years at

the

> > University of Essex, which various UK ES people have ground their

> teeth

> > about periodically while it was being done! In case anyone puts

it

> forward

> > as an anti-ES argument, the following points might be noted.

> >

> > 1. It was held at the University site - so anyone with severe ES

> who can't

> > travel was unable to attend.

> > 2. Five subjects with severe ES who were unable to complete the

> tests

> > because of the pain experienced were simply excluded from the

> results. (this

> > info is second hand but I believe originates from Alasdair

> of

> > Powerwatch, I have also heard from a separate source that some

> people were

> > unable to continue)

> > 3. Exposures were to a given frequency of MW mast signal for a

> total period

> > of under 1 hour, so that people who were not sensitive to that

> particular

> > frequency would not register a positive reaction.

> > 4. The researchers were psychologists, not medical - which

implies

> a lot

> > about what they expected to find!

> >

> > Basically, 1 and 2 excluded the people who might be expected to

> react most

> > strongly (severely ES), and the exposure time was short enough

that

> > moderately ES people might not experience a reaction.

> >

> > An interesting parallel that I thought of would be this:

> > 1. A study is done on disability. It is held on an upper floor of

a

> building

> > with stairs and no lift. All the people appearing for testing can

> walk,

> > therefore severe disability does not exist.

> > 2. A study is to be done on allergies. People are collected with

> various

> > allergies; bee stings, nuts, pollen, solvents, dust mites etc.

All

> are

> > exposed to pollen. Only a few develop hayfever. Therefore,

> allergies and

> > hayfever do not exist, and for the few people who do display a

> reaction, it

> > is obviously all in the mind.

> > 3. A study is done on lung cancer. People show no obvious ill

> effect after

> > 1 hour of smoking cigarettes, therefore there is no link between

> smoking and

> > cancer.

> > 4. A painting is to be examined to see whether it is a Titian or

an

> expert

> > forgery. The person responsible for devising the test and making

> the

> > assessment is an amateur photographer.

> >

> > Ian

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: groups (DOT) <mailto:%40> com

> [mailto:groups (DOT) <mailto:%40> com] On

> Behalf Of Marc

> >

> > Sent: 25 July 2007 19:56

> > esensgroups (DOT) <mailto:esens%40> com

> > Subject: Phone mast allergy " in the mind "

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > Well, of course someone has funded a study to show

> > that there's no such thing as ES:

> >

> > http://news. <http://news.

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm>

> bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm>

> > bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm

> >

> > Can't believe much you read in the press, anyway... :-)

> >

> > Marc

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Further thoughts on this...I think that if this Swedish EMF Refuge is

a success then THAT would be the place to start investigating what ES

is.

> > >

> > > Yes, this is the study which has been going on for some years

at

> the

> > > University of Essex, which various UK ES people have ground

their

> > teeth

> > > about periodically while it was being done! In case anyone puts

> it

> > forward

> > > as an anti-ES argument, the following points might be noted.

> > >

> > > 1. It was held at the University site - so anyone with severe

ES

> > who can't

> > > travel was unable to attend.

> > > 2. Five subjects with severe ES who were unable to complete the

> > tests

> > > because of the pain experienced were simply excluded from the

> > results. (this

> > > info is second hand but I believe originates from Alasdair

>

> > of

> > > Powerwatch, I have also heard from a separate source that some

> > people were

> > > unable to continue)

> > > 3. Exposures were to a given frequency of MW mast signal for a

> > total period

> > > of under 1 hour, so that people who were not sensitive to that

> > particular

> > > frequency would not register a positive reaction.

> > > 4. The researchers were psychologists, not medical - which

> implies

> > a lot

> > > about what they expected to find!

> > >

> > > Basically, 1 and 2 excluded the people who might be expected to

> > react most

> > > strongly (severely ES), and the exposure time was short enough

> that

> > > moderately ES people might not experience a reaction.

> > >

> > > An interesting parallel that I thought of would be this:

> > > 1. A study is done on disability. It is held on an upper floor

of

> a

> > building

> > > with stairs and no lift. All the people appearing for testing

can

> > walk,

> > > therefore severe disability does not exist.

> > > 2. A study is to be done on allergies. People are collected

with

> > various

> > > allergies; bee stings, nuts, pollen, solvents, dust mites etc.

> All

> > are

> > > exposed to pollen. Only a few develop hayfever. Therefore,

> > allergies and

> > > hayfever do not exist, and for the few people who do display a

> > reaction, it

> > > is obviously all in the mind.

> > > 3. A study is done on lung cancer. People show no obvious ill

> > effect after

> > > 1 hour of smoking cigarettes, therefore there is no link

between

> > smoking and

> > > cancer.

> > > 4. A painting is to be examined to see whether it is a Titian

or

> an

> > expert

> > > forgery. The person responsible for devising the test and

making

> > the

> > > assessment is an amateur photographer.

> > >

> > > Ian

> > >

> > > _____

> > >

> > > From: groups (DOT) <mailto:%40> com

> > [mailto:groups (DOT) <mailto:%40> com]

On

> > Behalf Of Marc

> > >

> > > Sent: 25 July 2007 19:56

> > > esensgroups (DOT) <mailto:esens%40> com

> > > Subject: Phone mast allergy " in the mind "

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > >

> > > Well, of course someone has funded a study to show

> > > that there's no such thing as ES:

> > >

> > > http://news. <http://news.

> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm>

> > bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm>

> > > bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6914492.stm

> > >

> > > Can't believe much you read in the press, anyway... :-)

> > >

> > > Marc

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >