Guest guest Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Just thought I'd turn to the experts: which is better and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 I'd just rather eat fruits and veggies. I've eaten enough processed stuff. For example if you really want some gooey, gummy stuff blend up a cupla okra in a glass of water. I mix that with corn meal and steam it. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: bernadettepawlik@... Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 11:19 AM Subject: [ ] Re: Guar vs. Psyllium Just thought I'd turn to the experts: which is better and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 In short: Psyllium is non-soluble & mostly passes through the gut unabsorbed. It is good for bulk & filling up intestine... and that contributes to satiety. Can help move things along, ya know. Guar is soluble, ferments in the intestine & is mostly absorbed. This fiber form works more inside the body... clearing away cholesterol, slowing down blood sugar reaction. I am hypoglycemic, pre-diabetic (per doc & symptoms), and guar gives me more satiety and for a longer time than ANY amount of sugar, veggies, legumes, protein, or any other food. The studies on guar seem to say that guar does not reduce appetite. Perhaps satiety & appetite are two different things... For me, guar slows down my motivation to eat more. The effect works best with a meal of protein and some carbs (fruit, veggies, sweet potato) and water. The same meal without guar does not carry the same effect at all. I presume that perceived benefit is not as great for those that do not crave, react to sugars, carbs. bernadettepawlik@... wrote: Just thought I'd turn to the experts: which is better and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Good references. Just one clarification I cant comment on which is better, between Guar and Psyllium as my experience is with Psyllium and I use it regularly in my practice for some pateints. Seems like the preference around here is for Guar. >>> Psyllium is non-soluble & mostly passes through the gut unabsorbed. It is good for bulk & filling up intestine... and that contributes to satiety. Correct except for one thing.... Psyllium is " soluble " fiber not insoluble. Soluble fibers are more " therapeutic " in that they do help in lowering elevated cholesterol levels, stabilize blood sugars and insulin levels, bind to certain chemicals and help remove them from the body/colon, help reduce the risk of certain cancers, and do " hold water " so they help create bulk and contribute to satiety. Bran (such as wheat bran) is an un-soluble fiber. These are more related to maintaining proper bowels function and regularlity. They can also contribute to satiety. In this study, psyllium wasnt used. The comparison was between Guar (soluble) and Bran (insoluble)... This one compares bran (psyllium) with guar gum for Irritable Bowel Syndrome http://snipurl.com/74to PMID: 12184518 In conclusion, improvements in core IBS symptoms (abdominal pain and bowel habits) were observed with both bran and PHGG [guar gum], but the latter was better tolerated and preferred by patients, revealing a higher probability of success than bran and a lower probability of patients abandoning the prescribed regimen, suggesting that it can increase the benefits deriving from fiber intake in IBS, making it a valid option to consider for high-fiber diet supplementation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Jeff, Thank you!! I'm not opposed to psyllium except that I really *thought* I read that it was mostly insoluble. And what " worries " me about insoluble is that excess can interfere mineral absorption (ref: http://snipurl.com/7511). Do you have an opinion about psyllium with respect to mineral absorption? FWIW, I do like psyllium, and agree that it offers many benefits that guar does not. My short experiment with psyllium seemed to produce less satiety than I perceive from guar. (Note: I will revise my references in orig post) Jeff Novick wrote: >Correct except for one thing.... Psyllium is " soluble " fiber not insoluble. Soluble fibers are more " therapeutic " in that they do help in lowering elevated cholesterol levels, stabilize blood sugars and insulin levels, bind to certain chemicals and help remove them from the body/colon, help reduce the risk of certain cancers, and do " hold water " so they help create bulk and contribute to satiety. > >Bran (such as wheat bran) is an un-soluble fiber. These are more related to maintaining proper bowels function and regularlity. They can also contribute to satiety. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 >>>Do you have an opinion about psyllium with respect to mineral absorption? My " opinion " is that I dont know of any evidence that says it will interfere with mineral absorbtion. You would need a very large amount and a low nutrient diet for it to make a difference. At doses of 3 or so servings a day, that wouldnt be near enough to have an effect. We recently added it to some of our recommendations based on the Portfolio Diet data and its effects on LDL and Total Cholesterol. Before we decided to, one of the concerns someone raised was the issue you raised. None of us, could find any data to support the concern. So, unless someone else here knows of any data showing it is concern, I wouldnt worry about. Good Luck jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Why not have it all? Use both! While technically carbohydrates, fibers don't add any burnable calories unless you're a cow or maybe a bacterium? Serving suggestion (for Guar and Psyllium - not bacterium) Put them both in your oat bran (lower cholesterol – at half cup dose); add a few raisins (for nutrient density); sprinkle with some cinnamon (a known blood sugar ameliorator to offset the high glycemic raisins). Voila, you have a nice hearty hot breakfast cereal (for those of you who eat breakfast). You could even pour some powdered milk in there - add water and stir microwave - maybe your breakfast will help you lose the fat and keep the muscle???? (I don't have any double blind crossover peer reviewed studies to back up this statement.) --- In , " Jeff Novick " <jnovick@p...> wrote: > We recently added it to some of our recommendations based on the > Portfolio Diet data and its effects on LDL and Total >Cholesterol. Before we decided to, one of the concerns someone raised was the issue you raised. None of us, could find any data to support the concern. So, unless someone else here knows of any data showing it is concern, I wouldnt worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 > Why not have it all? Use both! I use neither, but I generally take in more than 70 g of fiber (mostly soluble) per day, from vegetables, fruits, legumes, and whole grains, in approximate descending order. My total intake of food is nearly 3 kg per day, which might be daunting to many people. It's probably better to get your soluble and insoluble fibers from food, not supplements. Further, if you aim for more soluble than insoluble (soluble has more benefits) from food, not supplements, you are likely to be also taking in therapeutic or near-therapeutic values of vitamins, minerals, and protective phytochemicals (with the notable exceptions of B12 and D which must be addressed elsewhere). > While technically carbohydrates, fibers don't add any burnable > calories unless you're a cow or maybe a bacterium? Yes, they do, for us--indirectly, from bacteria. One workable definition of fiber is the stuff that remains undigested after passing through the large intestine. But, as has already been discussed, some fibers, especially soluble ones, can be fermented by bacteria in the large intestine yielding products like short chain fatty acids. These can be absorbed into the bloodstream. The result is that soluble fibers yield about 1.5 to 2.5 kcal/g but the precise values remain unknown. See: Tungland B, Meyer D, Nondisgestible Oligo- and Polysaccharides (Dietary Fiber): Their Physiology and Role in Human Health and Food, Comprehensive Reviews in Food Science and Safety, V3 2002 Fulll paper is at http://www.ift.org/pdfs/crfsfs/crfsfsv01n3p073-092ms20001598.pdf Be sure to read p.7. An HTML cache is available. You might also find this paper relevant: The Journal of Nutrition Vol. 127 No. 10 October 1997, pp. 2000-2005 The Western Lowland Gorilla Diet Has Implications for the Health of Humans and Other Hominoids G. Popovich, J. A. , Cyril W. C. Kendall, Ellen S. Dierenfeld, W. Carroll, Nauman Tariq, and Vidgen http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/127/10/2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Hi folks: Regarding psyllium, when I enter 1700 calories worth of it (25.373 cups) into Fitday.com, under the heading " Nutrition Facts " it shows considerable amounts of nutrients. For example, 163% of the RDA for vitamin A; 55% of the RDA for vitamin E; 1207% of the RDA for thiamin. Is it realistic to believe we are getting substantial amounts of nutrients from psyllium? (Of course, as usual, Fitday shows entirely different numbers for nutrient content of psyllium when you place the 1700 calories of it into the " Reports - Nutrition " section of the website: 82%; 245%; 2012% ........... respectively, half; five times; and double what it showed under " Nutrition Facts " for the exact same quantity of the identical food.) Sigh. Rodney. > > Why not have it all? Use both! > > I use neither, but I generally take in more than 70 g of fiber (mostly > soluble) per day, from vegetables, fruits, legumes, and whole grains, > in approximate descending order. My total intake of food is nearly 3 > kg per day, which might be daunting to many people. > > It's probably better to get your soluble and insoluble fibers from > food, not supplements. Further, if you aim for more soluble than > insoluble (soluble has more benefits) from food, not supplements, you > are likely to be also taking in therapeutic or near-therapeutic values > of vitamins, minerals, and protective phytochemicals (with the notable > exceptions of B12 and D which must be addressed elsewhere). > > > While technically carbohydrates, fibers don't add any burnable > > calories unless you're a cow or maybe a bacterium? > > Yes, they do, for us--indirectly, from bacteria. > > One workable definition of fiber is the stuff that remains undigested > after passing through the large intestine. But, as has already been > discussed, some fibers, especially soluble ones, can be fermented by > bacteria in the large intestine yielding products like short chain > fatty acids. These can be absorbed into the bloodstream. The result is > that soluble fibers yield about 1.5 to 2.5 kcal/g but the precise > values remain unknown. > > See: > > Tungland B, Meyer D, Nondisgestible Oligo- and Polysaccharides > (Dietary Fiber): Their Physiology and Role in Human Health and Food, > Comprehensive Reviews in Food Science and Safety, V3 2002 > > Fulll paper is at > http://www.ift.org/pdfs/crfsfs/crfsfsv01n3p073-092ms20001598.pdf > > Be sure to read p.7. An HTML cache is available. > > You might also find this paper relevant: > > The Journal of Nutrition Vol. 127 No. 10 October 1997, pp. 2000-2005 > The Western Lowland Gorilla Diet Has Implications for the Health of > Humans and Other Hominoids > G. Popovich, J. A. , Cyril W. C. Kendall, Ellen S. > Dierenfeld, W. Carroll, Nauman Tariq, and Vidgen > > http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/127/10/2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Interesting PDF monograph on psyllium and its benefits. I use it as a handout. http://www.thorne.com/pdf/journal/7-2/psyllium_monograph.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 > Interesting PDF monograph on psyllium and its benefits. I use it as a handout. > > http://www.thorne.com/pdf/journal/7-2/psyllium_monograph.pdf Yes this is the kind I buy and the brand is Cenat (a Spanish brand) but it doesnt look like Metamucil - as I recall it - it's tiny solid seeds. Canary Peg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 >>> From: " " <scott@e...> Date: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:21 am Subject: Re: Guar vs. Psyllium .... While technically carbohydrates, fibers don't add any burnable calories unless you're a cow or maybe a bacterium? >>> Although we think as fiber not contributing to calories, the bacterial fermentation of fiber creates short chain fatty acids (like those found in butterfat, e.g., butyric acid). Short chain fatty acids are directly absorbable and do contribute some calories, but they also have some beneficial effects in the colon as described in the following abstracts. Notice that guar is associated with low butyrate levels, whereas psyllium promoted higher butyrate levels. The paper by McIntyre concludes that: " These findings indicate that fibre which is associated with high butyrate concentrations in the distal large bowel is protective against large bowel cancer, while soluble fibres that do not raise distal butyrate concentrations, are not protective. " Using both guar and psyllium may be better than using only guar. What do you think? Tony === J Nutr. 1999 Nov;129(11):2081-7. Related Articles, Links Psyllium shifts the fermentation site of high-amylose cornstarch toward the distal colon and increases fecal butyrate concentration in rats. Morita T, Kasaoka S, Hase K, Kiriyama S. Azusawa Research Laboratories, Institute for Consumer Healthcare, Yamanouchi Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd. 1-8, Azusawa 1-Chome, Itabashi- ku, Tokyo 174-8511, Japan. moritata@... We examined the combination effects of psyllium (PS) and resistant starch on large bowel short-chain fatty acids (SCFA). Rats were fed one of the following four diets: low amylose (LAS) or high amylose cornstarch diets (HAS, 50 g/kg diet) with or without 15 g PS/kg diet (LAS/PS and HAS/PS diets). HAS and/or PS were substituted for the same amounts of LAS in diets. Cecal butyrate concentrations were significantly higher in rats fed the HAS and HAS/PS diets than in those fed the LAS and LAS/PS diets. However, butyrate and total SCFA concentrations in rats fed the HAS diet decreased along the length of the colon and fecal butyrate concentration was reduced to one-third of that in the cecum. In contrast, the HAS/PS diet maintained higher butyrate concentrations throughout the large bowel. Fecal butyrate concentration in the HAS/PS diet-fed group significantly exceeded the sum of the concentrations in rats fed the LAS/PS and HAS diets. PS supplementation to the HAS diet significantly increased fecal starch excretion by 10 fold compared with that of rats fed the HAS diet. There was a positive correlation between fecal butyrate concentration and fecal starch excretion (r = 0.709, P < 0.0001). In a further experiment, ileorectostomized rats were fed the HAS and HAS/PS diets. From the difference in fecal starch excretion between normal and ileorectostomized rats, starch degradation by large bowel microflora in rats fed the HAS and HAS/PS diets was deduced to be 96% and 63%, respectively. These findings support the hypothesis that PS may delay the fermentation rate of HAS in the cecum and shift the fermentation site of HAS toward the distal colon, leading to the higher butyrate concentration in the distal colon and feces. PMID: 10539788 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] === Gut. 1993 Mar;34(3):386-91. Butyrate production from dietary fibre and protection against large bowel cancer in a rat model. McIntyre A, Gibson PR, Young GP. University of Melbourne, Department of Medicine, Royal Melbourne Hospital, , Australia. Butyrate slows the growth of cancer cells cultured in vitro. To determine the relevance of the fermentative production of butyrate in vivo, colonic butyrate concentrations were manipulated by feeding different dietary fibres and were related to tumour development in the rat dimethylhydrazine model of large bowel cancer. It has previously been shown that guar gum and oat bran, while highly fermentable, are associated with low butyrate levels in the distal colon, while wheat bran causes significantly higher concentrations. Diets containing these fibres (nominally 10% w:w) were administered for 3 weeks before, for 10 weeks during, and for 20 weeks after dimethylhydrazine administration, after which animals were killed and examined for tumours. Significantly fewer tumours were seen in the rats fed wheat bran compared with those fed guar or oat bran, and the total tumour mass was lowest in rats fed wheat bran. Rats on a 'no added fibre diet' had an intermediate tumour mass. Regression analysis, performed regardless of dietary group, showed that the concentration in stools of butyrate but not of acetate or stool volume, correlated significantly (and negatively) with tumour mass. These findings indicate that fibre which is associated with high butyrate concentrations in the distal large bowel is protective against large bowel cancer, while soluble fibres that do not raise distal butyrate concentrations, are not protective. Thus, butyrate production in vivo does bear a significant relationship to suppression of tumour formation. PMID: 8386131 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] === Gut. 1991 Aug;32(8):923-8. Colonic fermentation of dietary fibre to short chain fatty acids in patients with adenomatous polyps and colonic cancer. Clausen MR, Bonnen H, Mortensen PB. Department of Medicine A, Rigshospitalet, University of Copenhagen, Denmark. Short chain (C2-C6) fatty acids are produced in the colon through bacterial fermentation of mainly dietary fibre. Butyrate (C4) possesses antineoplastic effects on human colon carcinoma cells, and epidemiological studies indicate that high fibre diets may reduce the incidence of colorectal cancer. The role of dietary fibre during colorectal carcinogenesis might therefore be related to its fermentation to butyrate. Faecal concentrations of total short chain fatty acids and concentrations and ratios of the individual C2-C6 fatty acids did not differ between 16 healthy controls, 17 patients with colonic adenomas, and 17 patients with colonic cancer. Comparison of the molar production velocities (mmol/l.hour) of total and individual short chain fatty acids from glucose, ispagula, wheat bran, and albumin in six and 24 hour faecal incubations showed no differences. The ratio of butyrate production to total short chain fatty acid production from fibre, however, was reduced in patients with colonic cancer and adenomas compared with healthy controls (ispagula, six hours: 6.4, 7.6, and 11.5% respectively, p = 0.005 and 24 hour: 9.1, 9.9, and 15.4%, p = 0.002; wheat bran, six hours: 9.9, 10.2, and 14.7% respectively, p = 0.06 and 24 hours: 15.1, 16.8, and 21.0%, p = 0.01). It may be that the low ratios of colonic butyrate formation combined with low fibre diets increase the risk of colonic neoplasia. PMID: 1653178 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Interesting article thanks! Now that you mention it I recall a discussion regarding bacterial fermentation here in this form. It concerned whether the byproducts should be a material concern for CRON masters or not. I don’t think it was stated explicitly but I don’t think anybody was concerned about them. Using both fibers seems like an extraordinarily prophylactic thing to do given the normal caveats of moderation and therapeutic dosage and possible allergies, etc. Speaking of dosage how much guar do you CRON masters consume? (Rodney, I hope you are not planning on consuming 1700 kcal of Psyllium in one day! Do let us know what happens???) Quoting citpeks <citpeks@...>: > Although we think as fiber not contributing to calories, the > > bacterial fermentation of fiber creates short chain fatty acids (like > > those found in butterfat, e.g., butyric acid). Short chain fatty > > acids are directly absorbable and do contribute some calories, but > > they also have some beneficial effects in the colon as described in > > the following abstracts. Notice that guar is associated with low > > butyrate levels, whereas psyllium promoted higher butyrate levels. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Hi : Thanks for that advice. No. I was not planning on consuming 1700 calories of psyllium daily. Well, not today anyway. With all 'foods' that are expected to be absorbed (although I wouldn't expect much from psyllium to be absorbed) I like to see how much of the various nutrients are provided by 1700 calories. The reason is that I am currently consuming a total of about 1700 calories daily. So, if I find, for example, that 1700 calories of some food or other contributes 237% of the RDA I immediately know that it is doing more than its fair share towards supplying that nutrient. If I notice that 1700 calories of it provides only 43%, or 78% or whatever, of some other nutrient then I can immediately see that it falls short in this respect and that I will have to make up for that elsewhere in my diet. If, on the other hand, I plan to eat 150 calories of the food in question, and, instead of doing the above, check and find that 150 calories of that food supplies 3.8% of the RDA, I will still not have a clue about whether it is a good source of that nutrient or not, until I have gotten my calculator out and done a whole lot of additional calculations. So I find the 1700-based calculations more helpful. If my daily caloric intake falls to 1500 kcal, I will be doing my calculations based on 1500. Hopefully this explains my rationale. Rodney. > (Rodney, I hope you are not planning on consuming 1700 kcal of Psyllium in one > day! Do let us know what happens???) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 > Hi folks: > > Regarding psyllium, when I enter 1700 calories worth of it (25.373 > cups) into Fitday.com, under the heading " Nutrition Facts " it shows > considerable amounts of nutrients. For example, 163% of the RDA for > vitamin A; 55% of the RDA for vitamin E; 1207% of the RDA for thiamin. > > Is it realistic to believe we are getting substantial amounts of > nutrients from psyllium? No it's not realistic. Psyllium is not soluble so I imagine there's very little one gets from it nutrition-wise. Also you mention 25 cups of the stuff so it would work out to about 68 calories a cup. When I take it - not very ofen - I take a heaping teaspoonful and that's about 10 grams - the recommended daily amount - so it has few calories. I have found it very helpful when I needed it and prefer it to Metamusil. Canary Peg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 >> Psyllium is not soluble Psyllium is soluble fiber. >>I have found it very helpful when I needed it and prefer it to Metamusil. Unless I am mis understanding your answer, Metamucil is Psyllium which is soluble fiber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 In your previous post you posted the website about this and it said that the seed - not the husk which is what I think Metamusil is - is 35% soluble and 65% insoluble. Thy dont look the same as the seed looks like seeds whereas Metamusil looks like the husks. Canary Peg > >> Psyllium is not soluble > > Psyllium is soluble fiber. > > >>I have found it very helpful when I needed it and prefer it to Metamusil. > > Unless I am mis understanding your answer, Metamucil is Psyllium which is soluble fiber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Use both soluble fiber (eg guar, 100% soluble) and insoluble fiber (eg micronized cellulose, 100% insoluble) in your recipes and puddings. They have different benefits and different protective effects. Soluble fiber is associated with the broadest range of benefits affecting satiety (feeling full longer and quicker), blood sugar control, and lowering cholesterol, while insoluble fiber is noted especially as colon cancer protective. Soluble fiber has 1.5 to 2.5 Kcal per gram (simple carbs have 4), and insoluble fiber has 0.5 to 1.5 Kcal per gram. Calories come from intestinal bacterial fermentation that produces short chain fatty acids (SCFAs) absorbed as calories by the body. Fiber does interfere with absorption of some nutrients, but the effect is variable and can be as little as only 5 or 10% decrease. With a good quality CR diet, nutrition is probably NOT a worry at all for people insuring high nutrition. -- Warren ============ On 17 June 2004, Tony wrote: .... Using both guar and psyllium may be better than using only guar. What do you think? Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.