Re: They don't believe me

[Guest guest]

> How can I explain to them that this is real problem?

I'm surprised that nobody has answered this question yet, as

over the years I've seen people post links to all sorts of

studies on ES, and our very own " files " section has some

interesting items.

I'd say that anyone who thinks that ES is psychological

has not spent much (if any) effort researching it. And

medical doctors are notorious for dismissing real illnesses

as psychological -- in the last 50 years, doctors have

done this for Multiple Sclerosis, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome,

Chemical Sensitivities, and Fibromyalgia. Eventually though,

the doctors see the truth -- usually long after everyone else,

though... :-(

Marc

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I can't believe it.

>

> I met a woman who I fell inlove with. She is a doctor, and her

friends are

> doctores. When I happened to mention that I am EHS, they all

pretty much

> gazed at me and said it is Psycological, that there is no evedence

that the

> problems is a physcial one, that there os no hard data regarding

it.

>

> And all I can say was, But the pain is real!

>

> And they said - " oh, we belevie you that you have pain. But is is

couased be

> stress. You should relax " .

>

>

> How can I explain to them that this is real problem?

>

> Is there a study I can show them?

>

> Is there by now a marker related to EHS?

>

> It is so frastrating not to be believed

>

>

> HIllel

>

> Ps - I do feel much better re the syptoms. Yet, I still suffer

mildly

>

hi hillel,

my best advice is don't talk too much about it, don't make much fuss

about it and don't discuss it more than absolutely necessary and let

them experience in other ways that you are a rational person; and

little by little they will come to respect you and probably think "

may be she's got a point after all " ; by presenting a lot of

literature on the topic, i'm afraid their response will rather

be " well, she's a little nuts about this " .

If they should ask you about the problem, use some humour - that has

my most successful strategy.

best regards from peter

(in a way i was lucky, because i got an extensive rash all over my

body, which was obvious to everybody)

[Guest guest]

Hi,

>Not everyone that says it is psyhcological has lived it (yeah problem of the

soul is right though, well that is all of the population) Relax is still good

advice so maybe she's allright.. (plus falling in love may be cause and

solution..)

Love,

Ellen

Hillel Wahrman <whillel@...> wrote:

Hi everyone,

I can't believe it.

I met a woman who I fell inlove with. She is a doctor, and her friends are

doctores. When I happened to mention that I am EHS, they all pretty much

gazed at me and said it is Psycological, that there is no evedence that the

problems is a physcial one, that there os no hard data regarding it.

And all I can say was, But the pain is real!

And they said - " oh, we belevie you that you have pain. But is is couased be

stress. You should relax " .

nowm this is the woman I am living with.

How can I explain to them that this is real problem?

Is there a study I can show them?

Is there by now a marker related to EHS?

It is so frastrating not to be believed

HIllel

Ps - I do feel much better re the syptoms. Yet, I still suffer mildly

[Guest guest]

We are all victims of this " psychological " pigeonholing by some in our

society.

We cannot make believers out of those who refuse to see about anything. All

we can do is clearly and with facts, and measurable, hopefully science, speak

our truth quietly. Some will believe, some will not. We are not responsible

for those. I have found that to take on their doubts is not profitable. Make a

difference where you can, and choose your fights carefully. Some of you may

not agree, but freedom of choice is a wonderful thing. I have sat by and watched

the debate on things not related, I think, to ES. But I have also found

useful information in this group.

Marc, I am not anyone's judge. That has already been done by another. If

there is a problem, I have every faith He is able to explain for me. I can say

it

is written and guide you back to the eternal wisdom. I am just a fruit

inspector, grateful to be in the vineyard. I want to thank you for your openness

and

willingness to help those of us who suffer the same things as you. I am with

you 100 percent regarding the stonewalling of doctors and their choices in

dismissing our symptoms. A lot of it is political and lobbyists for the power

companies exercise too much power over the public perception of this

sensitivity/allergy/disease/condition/ailment.

Hillel, so they dont believe you. I would suggest purchasing a meter that you

can carry around. And maybe show them when your symptoms occur, but the

choice is yours. It is a personal choice how far you wish to go, even with your

significant other. I wish you well, and God bless. Peg

[Guest guest]

Thank you for all your responses. I want to make it clear. They

dont dismiss my claim that I feel pain when close to a turned on

cell phone or other gadget. They Just say that treatment is not in

reducing the electric field, since the field is harmful. The reason

for the pain is in the head, its emtonal, and should be talked out

of there with pcychology.

Its hard to argue that stress is not related, it is. But the

mechanism of this condition is physical, and we should be able to

trust our doctors to search and find physical treatmet.

What I resent in some Doctores attetude is the condesending.Heart

problems and high blood pressure can be effected by stress. But

since there is a biological marker - they are not phsycological.

I would add : I feel better emotionally in the past year than since

many years, and I do feel better regarding ES. So the fact that one

effects the other is not disputed by me

H

>

> We are all victims of this " psychological " pigeonholing by some in

our

> society.

> We cannot make believers out of those who refuse to see about

anything. All

> we can do is clearly and with facts, and measurable, hopefully

science, speak

> our truth quietly. Some will believe, some will not. We are not

responsible

> for those. I have found that to take on their doubts is not

profitable. Make a

> difference where you can, and choose your fights carefully. Some

of you may

> not agree, but freedom of choice is a wonderful thing. I have sat

by and watched

> the debate on things not related, I think, to ES. But I have also

found

> useful information in this group.

> Marc, I am not anyone's judge. That has already been done by

another. If

> there is a problem, I have every faith He is able to explain for

me. I can say it

> is written and guide you back to the eternal wisdom. I am just a

fruit

> inspector, grateful to be in the vineyard. I want to thank you for

your openness and

> willingness to help those of us who suffer the same things as you.

I am with

> you 100 percent regarding the stonewalling of doctors and their

choices in

> dismissing our symptoms. A lot of it is political and lobbyists

for the power

> companies exercise too much power over the public perception of

this

> sensitivity/allergy/disease/condition/ailment.

> Hillel, so they dont believe you. I would suggest purchasing a

meter that you

> can carry around. And maybe show them when your symptoms occur,

but the

> choice is yours. It is a personal choice how far you wish to go,

even with your

> significant other. I wish you well, and God bless. Peg

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of

hillelwahrman

Thank you for all your responses. I want to make it clear. They

dont dismiss my claim that I feel pain when close to a turned on

cell phone or other gadget. They Just say that treatment is not in

reducing the electric field, since the field is harmful. The reason

for the pain is in the head, its emtonal, and should be talked out

of there with pcychology.

Yes, that is a very common medical attitude (and we have also found it among

some of our friends). Human nature is to be unbelieving of something that

does not seem to fit with your own life experience and those of people round

you, or " common sense " : unless there is a general consensus in society that

something is true, e.g. everyone believes Madagascar is an island off the

east of Africa because it is there on maps, although hardly any of us will

have been there and seen it!

Medical science is an extremely complicated set of ideas and theories based

on centuries of observations and decades of discoveries. Generally, it fits

the facts very well. Since " new " diseases rarely appear from nowhere, if

something is unexplained, the tendency is to assume they don't exist

physically rather than that there is a gap in the theory. Unfortunately ME,

MCS and ES are indeed " new " diseases and don't fit well into existing

theories. But people always want to be careful about accepting new ideas

because there are an awful lot of people out there with plausible ideas and

way-out theories about all sorts of things, most of which are complete

nonsense. (Somebody suggested to me that people wear metal hats because they

are afraid of aliens zapping their brains with radiation...)

So I can understand why the sceptics feel that way. I am naturally

sceptical myself, but fortunately I saw Sue's ES problem suddenly develop

with a clear electrical-related cause, and had gone through the " suspicion

barrier " earlier with her MCS symptoms, so it was easier for me. Otherwise,

I would have found ES very hard to believe. I can uderstand why your doctor

friends feel that way - but hopefully we can gradually persuade them of the

real facts!

Its hard to argue that stress is not related, it is. But the

mechanism of this condition is physical, and we should be able to

trust our doctors to search and find physical treatmet. What I resent in

some Doctores attetude is the condesending. Heart problems and high blood

pressure can be effected by stress. But

since there is a biological marker - they are not phsycological.

You have highlighted the real problem (also in your earlier post) - there is

no clear undisputed biological marker as yet. At the moment there is no

test that a doctor can run which will show a person has ES. All he can rely

on is a patient's report of their symptoms, and these are notoriously

inaccurate. There are some ideas on tests - myelin antibodies, recording

brain wave patterns etc. Unfortunately until ES is more widely known and

accepted, very few people will want to research into these things, so they

will remain undetected, so there won't be a test ... etc.etc.

I would add : I feel better emotionally in the past year than since

many years, and I do feel better regarding ES. So the fact that one

effects the other is not disputed by me

Great to hear that. You know what has really happened to you and what has

helped you. Obviously you must have been doing something right despite the

absence of medical treatment! (Even though I'm afraid some will say, Look,

it was all in the mind, it went away by itself... Not much we can do about

that, even though people also sometimes recover spontaneously from

physically " proven " illnesses like cancer). Hope your recovery is soon

complete in every respect.

Ian

H

>

> We are all victims of this " psychological " pigeonholing by some in

our

> society.

> We cannot make believers out of those who refuse to see about

anything. All

> we can do is clearly and with facts, and measurable, hopefully

science, speak

> our truth quietly. Some will believe, some will not. We are not

responsible

> for those. I have found that to take on their doubts is not

profitable. Make a

> difference where you can, and choose your fights carefully. Some

of you may

> not agree, but freedom of choice is a wonderful thing. I have sat

by and watched

> the debate on things not related, I think, to ES. But I have also

found

> useful information in this group.

> Marc, I am not anyone's judge. That has already been done by

another. If

> there is a problem, I have every faith He is able to explain for

me. I can say it

> is written and guide you back to the eternal wisdom. I am just a

fruit

> inspector, grateful to be in the vineyard. I want to thank you for

your openness and

> willingness to help those of us who suffer the same things as you.

I am with

> you 100 percent regarding the stonewalling of doctors and their

choices in

> dismissing our symptoms. A lot of it is political and lobbyists

for the power

> companies exercise too much power over the public perception of

this

> sensitivity/allergy/disease/condition/ailment.

> Hillel, so they dont believe you. I would suggest purchasing a

meter that you

> can carry around. And maybe show them when your symptoms occur,

but the

> choice is yours. It is a personal choice how far you wish to go,

even with your

> significant other. I wish you well, and God bless. Peg

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Apologies, this message may have been rather incomprehensible to some

because seem to have lost the formatting on some browsers. I have

indicated below which paragraphs were Hillel's and which were mine, to make

it clearer.

Ian

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Ian

Kemp

Sent: 31 May 2006 08:44

Subject: RE: Re: They don't believe me

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of

hillelwahrman

(Hillel) Thank you for all your responses. I want to make it clear. They

dont dismiss my claim that I feel pain when close to a turned on

cell phone or other gadget. They Just say that treatment is not in

reducing the electric field, since the field is harmful. The reason

for the pain is in the head, its emtonal, and should be talked out

of there with pcychology.

(Ian) Yes, that is a very common medical attitude (and we have also found

it among

some of our friends). Human nature is to be unbelieving of something that

does not seem to fit with your own life experience and those of people round

you, or " common sense " : unless there is a general consensus in society that

something is true, e.g. everyone believes Madagascar is an island off the

east of Africa because it is there on maps, although hardly any of us will

have been there and seen it!

Medical science is an extremely complicated set of ideas and theories based

on centuries of observations and decades of discoveries. Generally, it fits

the facts very well. Since " new " diseases rarely appear from nowhere, if

something is unexplained, the tendency is to assume they don't exist

physically rather than that there is a gap in the theory. Unfortunately ME,

MCS and ES are indeed " new " diseases and don't fit well into existing

theories. But people always want to be careful about accepting new ideas

because there are an awful lot of people out there with plausible ideas and

way-out theories about all sorts of things, most of which are complete

nonsense. (Somebody suggested to me that people wear metal hats because they

are afraid of aliens zapping their brains with radiation...)

So I can understand why the sceptics feel that way. I am naturally

sceptical myself, but fortunately I saw Sue's ES problem suddenly develop

with a clear electrical-related cause, and had gone through the " suspicion

barrier " earlier with her MCS symptoms, so it was easier for me. Otherwise,

I would have found ES very hard to believe. I can uderstand why your doctor

friends feel that way - but hopefully we can gradually persuade them of the

real facts!

(Hillel) Its hard to argue that stress is not related, it is. But the

mechanism of this condition is physical, and we should be able to

trust our doctors to search and find physical treatmet. What I resent in

some Doctores attetude is the condesending. Heart problems and high blood

pressure can be effected by stress. But

since there is a biological marker - they are not phsycological.

(Ian) You have highlighted the real problem (also in your earlier post) -

there is

no clear undisputed biological marker as yet. At the moment there is no

test that a doctor can run which will show a person has ES. All he can rely

on is a patient's report of their symptoms, and these are notoriously

inaccurate. There are some ideas on tests - myelin antibodies, recording

brain wave patterns etc. Unfortunately until ES is more widely known and

accepted, very few people will want to research into these things, so they

will remain undetected, so there won't be a test ... etc.etc.

(Hillel) I would add : I feel better emotionally in the past year than

since

many years, and I do feel better regarding ES. So the fact that one

effects the other is not disputed by me

(Ian) Great to hear that. You know what has really happened to you and

what has

helped you. Obviously you must have been doing something right despite the

absence of medical treatment! (Even though I'm afraid some will say, Look,

it was all in the mind, it went away by itself... Not much we can do about

that, even though people also sometimes recover spontaneously from

physically " proven " illnesses like cancer). Hope your recovery is soon

complete in every respect.

Ian

H

>

> We are all victims of this " psychological " pigeonholing by some in

our

> society.

> We cannot make believers out of those who refuse to see about

anything. All

> we can do is clearly and with facts, and measurable, hopefully

science, speak

> our truth quietly. Some will believe, some will not. We are not

responsible

> for those. I have found that to take on their doubts is not

profitable. Make a

> difference where you can, and choose your fights carefully. Some

of you may

> not agree, but freedom of choice is a wonderful thing. I have sat

by and watched

> the debate on things not related, I think, to ES. But I have also

found

> useful information in this group.

> Marc, I am not anyone's judge. That has already been done by

another. If

> there is a problem, I have every faith He is able to explain for

me. I can say it

> is written and guide you back to the eternal wisdom. I am just a

fruit

> inspector, grateful to be in the vineyard. I want to thank you for

your openness and

> willingness to help those of us who suffer the same things as you.

I am with

> you 100 percent regarding the stonewalling of doctors and their

choices in

> dismissing our symptoms. A lot of it is political and lobbyists

for the power

> companies exercise too much power over the public perception of

this

> sensitivity/allergy/disease/condition/ailment.

> Hillel, so they dont believe you. I would suggest purchasing a

meter that you

> can carry around. And maybe show them when your symptoms occur,

but the

> choice is yours. It is a personal choice how far you wish to go,

even with your

> significant other. I wish you well, and God bless. Peg

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

They aren't deluded nor do they disbelieve. It suits

those in power to ignore the things they want to. i.e.

growing white slavery, torture, emf and microwaves

and satellite targetting, radio waves and signalling to

the head. not to mention the rest that is under the

surface which they choose to ignore, the not nice things

that aren't spoken about... unfortunately.

Sending it to Coventry has just helped evil grow.

How dare they mention torture as if they care here in the

UK. The hypocrites!

Maureen

; whillel@...

Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:25 AM

Subject: RE: They don't believe me

Dear es group,

In the Guardian of 30/05/06 Randerson their Science correspondent

quotes the famous evolutionary biologist Prof Steve :

" If somebody has decided to believe something - whatever the evidence - then

there is nothing you can do about it " .

His context was creationism and blind anti-science belief in the bible.

We have it worse because doctors are claiming to be acting on correct

scientific precepts. Ones that are mistaken, outdated, but now exist as

dogma.

The n scientists who refused to accept the idea of meteorites said :

" Stones do not fall from the sky because there are no stones in the sky "

Now we have EMFs do not hurt you because EMFs cannot hurt you, or vice

versa, totally self-sufficient, inexorable and in defiance of the evidence.

Put the copy of Gro Harlem Brundtland's (former secretary-general of World

Health Organisation) interview under their noses and above all keep calm and

rational.

Remember THEY are the deluded Hillel.

Appendix 1 Case Study, Gro Harlem Brundtland

(English translation from Cover story in Norwegian newspaper " Dagbladet " of

March 9, 2002: http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2002/03/09/318013.html

Copyright Dagbladet 9/3/2002 )

Former Norwegian Prime Minister, WHO Director-General, Gro Harlem Brundtland

is getting headaches every time she's using a mobile phone. Mobile phone

radiation gives Gro Harlem Brundtland headaches.

WHO Director-General Gro Harlem Brundtland (62), gets headaches from talking

on a mobile phone. That is not enough: People in her proximity must turn

their phones off in order to prevent discomfort. By Aud Dalsegg Saturday 9

March 2002

" It's not the sound, but the waves I react on. My hypersensitivity has gone

so far that I even react on mobiles closer to me than about four metres, "

Gro explains. When we sit with her in her office at " Helsetilsynet " in Oslo

she asks if there is an active mobile phone in the room. She finds that she

has developed a slight headache.

The cellular phone of the photographer was turned on but without sound in

the pocket of his jacket. The earlier Minister of State [Prime Minister]

never had a mobile of her own, but she has close associates who do and she

earlier often received calls on their phones.

She says there are reasons to be cautious about mobile phone use.

" In the beginning I felt a local warmth around my ear. But the agony got

worse, and turned into a strong discomfort and headaches every time I used a

mobile phone, "

Gro says. She thought she could escape the pain by shorter calls, but it

didn't help.

Neither did it help that she herself stopped using a mobile phone. Today it

is a tool everybody uses, also at her workplace, the World Health

Organisation (WHO) in Geneva.

" I felt after a while that I had developed a sensitivity against the

radiation. And in order not to be thought to be hysterical - that someone

should believe that this was just something I imagined - I have made several

tests: People have been in my office with their mobile hidden in their

pocket or bag. Without knowing if it was on or off, we have tested my

reactions. I have always reacted when the phone has been on - never when

it's off. So there is no doubt. " What about PCs? - " If I hold a laptop to

read what's on the screen, it feels like I get an electric shock through my

arms. " ....

The headache she gets from mobile radiation abates about half an hour to an

hour after the radiation exposure stops. She cannot stand wireless [phones].

Wireless phones, becoming more and more common in homes are said to radiate

stronger than mobile phones [due to the lack of low power modes of DECT].

Gro cannot stand such [phones] either.

" I get an instant reaction if I touch such a phone " .

Do you advise against using a mobile phone? -

" We do not have scientific evidence to go out with a clear warning. It is

not established that the radiation for instance can result in brain cancer.

WHO has a big study going on and in 2-3 years from now, we will have better

answers to all these questions. But I understand the scientists who warn. I

think we have reason to be cautious, and not use the [mobile] phone more

than necessary. And the younger you are, the more reason to take this

seriously. I think you should follow the precautionary principle " ,

Gro Harlem Brundtland says.

" Previously scientists and physicians have ignored hypersensitivity to

electricity. "

The Norwegian Association for Electro-sensitive felt the resistance to be so

strong they closed down their work [they have since started again].

" But I am convinced this has to be taken seriously. Some people develop

sensitivity to electricity and radiation from equipment such as mobile

phones or PCs. If this sensitivity can lead to adverse health-effects as

cancer or other diseases, we do not know yet. But I think we should follow

the precautionary principle, especially with regard to our children. " .

ElectroSensitivity-UK (registered charity 1103018) helping the vulnerable

minority with Radiation Sickness from electromagnetic fields, microwaves,

RF etc. all 'electrosmog'.

Rod Read M.Phil.,(Cantab), Dip Psych Couns., Cert.Ed. director

Please support us with a donation, (£10 min.) our only income, to ES-UK as

below.

We welcome help from scientists, doctors and health experts in understanding

causes and links, diagnosis and treatments. Also all media inquiries.

ES-UK Office, Bury Lane, Sutton, Ely, Cambs, CB6 2BB. Tel: 01353-778151 or

at www.electrosensitivity.org.uk Also by e-mail at

electrosensitivity@...

Trustees: Professor of Human Radiation Effects Dr Denis Henshaw, Dr

Dowson MD., ChB, Philips BA. Scientific advice from:

www.powerwatch.org.uk, son Dip.AAS. Bsc(Hons) RIBA. Inst.Ph.,

Environmental Consultant and others. Visit www.tetrawatch.net

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

From: " Hillel Wahrman " <whillel@...>

Reply-

< >

Subject: They don't believe me

Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 22:38:16 +0300

>Hi everyone,

>

> I can't believe it.

>

>I met a woman who I fell inlove with. She is a doctor, and her friends

are

>doctores. When I happened to mention that I am EHS, they all pretty much

>gazed at me and said it is Psycological, that there is no evedence that

the

>problems is a physcial one, that there os no hard data regarding it.

>

>And all I can say was, But the pain is real!

>

>And they said - " oh, we belevie you that you have pain. But is is couased

be

>stress. You should relax " .

>

>nowm this is the woman I am living with.

>

>

>How can I explain to them that this is real problem?

>

>Is there a study I can show them?

>

>Is there by now a marker related to EHS?

>

>It is so frastrating not to be believed

>

>

>HIllel

>

>Ps - I do feel much better re the syptoms. Yet, I still suffer mildly

>

>

>

>

>

>

>