Re:Graham Stetzer defensiveness

[Guest guest]

I am a new member here, and I am one of the people who has recently

written Marc regarding his comments about the Graham Stetzer filters. What the

others said, I have no idea. I object specifically to his saying that the

filters must cause high frequencies, as he feels he has a reaction to them.

It is technically impossible for the Graham Stetzer filters to cause

high frequencies. To say, without proof, that they do is slander. Proof

would

be oscilloscope tracings. If anyone has oscilloscope tracings showing that

the GS filters create frequencies of any sort, please send them ASAP to Dr.

Graham or Dave Stetzer. (I will gladly provide their contact information.)

Otherwise, please kindly retract this particular statement.

Dave is fed up with the false statements being made about the filters.

To date, this has been done only by people who have an axe to grind in that

they sell products that do not do anyplace close to the job of helping ES

people that the filters do, or because they represent the utility companies who

do

not want the public to find out just how many of their health problems are

being caused by the polluted electricity being delivered to their homes.

Marc's

remarks are not similarly motivated, but that does not make them more

tolerable, nor true.

I hope that Mark will think about this and take the appropriate action.

If he wants to take the stand that the filters create RF, he is under the

obligation to prove that this is so. Otherwise, he may be facing a law suit.

I am guessing that it did not occur to Marc that he had said anything

slanderous, but unfortunately he has.

I myself almost died in 2002, from health problems that turned out to be

caused by electrical pollution - health-damaging high frequencies riding on

the 60Hz from our utility company. If someone had not given me Dave Stetzer's

phone number I literally would not be here to write this letter today. I am

a natural health practitioner, and have become an activist and educator

regarding electrical pollution. I give a workshop to help people remediate

their

own living spaces, and have a book on this " in the works. "

One important point is that the filters can only address the high

frequencies in the circuits they are plugged into. In many cases, however, the

RF has found its way onto water pipes, phone lines, etcetera, and these must be

addressed as well. In our home, we also had high-frequency electrical

fields on doors, woodwork, furniture, walls, in the water of some of our faucets

and showers....

Dave Stetzer spent hours on the phone teaching me how to find and

remediate our myriad electrical pollution problems. He has devoted his life

to

doing all that he can to provide solutions to the electrical pollution problem.

Too much of his life, actually, so that he has no time left for a personal

life, and may burn himself out. ES people certainly have no greater friend

and ally than Dave.

Those interested can read more about electrical pollution and its

solutions at www.electricalpollution.com and www.stetzerelectric.com. At the

latter site, be sure to click on " research " and read about Dr. Magda Havas'

work.

She is now doing a study with a group of MS patients, and the results are

absolutly stunning. People with MS who could not walk are now shovelling snow

and dancing on their sidewalks, after installing the Graham Stetzer filters in

their homes.

I will be glad to send my own article on electrical pollution to anyone

who would like to read it.

Regards,

Shivani Arjuna Small

Sarjuna@...

920-994-4082

[Guest guest]

> Otherwise, he may be facing a law suit.

Well, that's a fine way to introduce yourself to a group. :-(

All I did was report my reaction to these filters, and

now I've got a bunch of people harrasing me for it.

One would think that we could have a free exchange of ideas

and information, and then we would all be better off

for it. But instead, now I've got people threatening

me with lawsuits for having a negative reaction to a

product.

If I'm getting sharp pains in my head almost immediately

after plugging something into my power outlet, then I

think that I can safely state that there is something

being generated that were not there before.

Especially when they go away when I unplug it. Especially

when I've tried other types of shunt filters and had

similar reactions.

You've said before that these filters remove the RF

noise in the waveform. Well, in order to do that,

they are obviously alterating the original waveform,

correct? They are not removing the noise

spikes completely, because the meter only shows

a reduction in the noise, not an elimination of it.

So this means that they are either reducing the

amplitude of the noise spikes, or they

are truncating it (or a bit of both). If they

are truncating it, there have already been studies

that sharp corners in waveforms seem to cause

more problems for some ES folks, and I may be reacting

to the introduction of the these new corners

added to the waveforms that were not there in

the first place.

But of course, this is all just my own speculation

based on my reading the about what the filters

do, and my own personal reaction to them. I'd

hardly think that my theorizing in a discussion

group qualifies as slander.

And what about the studies done in schools where

they did the surveys to see if people's health

were doing better or worse after the installation,

and a significant portion of these people reported

that they were doing worse? What is your

explanation for that?

Marc

[Guest guest]

> If he wants to take the stand that the filters create RF, he is under

> the obligation to prove that this is so.

I don't take the stand that the filters create RF.

I do take the stand that the filters give me a headache. This

would be very easy to prove with a double blind test.

I also take the stand that I don't see how these filters would

help ES folks who are having trouble tolerating driving

a car, being in an airport, being in a shopping mall, being

in a grocery store, walking under power lines, being in

an internet cafe, standing next to someone using a cellphone,

etc. Perhaps you could explain?

Marc

[Guest guest]

Marc, in my search for information and resources regarding ES

and related medical conditions. ESens is the only newsgroup

I've found where the quality of the information shared is

consistently high and, I feel, reliable -- i.e., free of commercial or

any other motivation besides the wish to pool information

relevant to the group. I'd hate to see this change simply because

someone with an interest in promoting or protecting a particular

commercial product starts throwing bullying legal language

around.

It isn't necessary to attack one another here. Don't folks with ES

have enough problems? And, I must say, if someone wants to

convince *me* to buy an EMF protection device or book -- they'll

have better luck winning me over by projecting openness and

confidence rather than insecurity and paranoia. I wouldn't trust a

salesman who threatens his customers. I don't even know what

this product is -- have not been following the posts about it -- but

here is my first impression based on its spokesperson's

behavior: it must be a pretty damn crappy product.

So, am I guilty of slander now, too?

Cara

> > Otherwise, he may be facing a law suit.

>

> Well, that's a fine way to introduce yourself to a group. :-(

>

> All I did was report my reaction to these filters, and

> now I've got a bunch of people harrasing me for it.

> One would think that we could have a free exchange of ideas

> and information, and then we would all be better off

> for it. But instead, now I've got people threatening

> me with lawsuits for having a negative reaction to a

> product.

[Guest guest]

> I wouldn't trust a

> salesman who threatens his customers. I don't even know what

> this product is -- have not been following the posts about it -- but

> here is my first impression based on its spokesperson's

> behavior: it must be a pretty damn crappy product.

I think if you review the archives, there was one (maybe two?)

person(s) here who have tried the Graham Stetzer filters, and reported

good results with them. I was on another discussion group

where someone bought a whole set of 20 filters, and returned

them because he was having a negative reaction to them.

My only reason for buying one in the first place was to do some

experimentation -- as you know, I had good results with the

Quantum Products line. This line of products has been

described to be " similar to a highly refined shunt

filter " . This means that it takes the noise out of the signal,

leaving just the pure signal behind. The Graham-Stetzer filters

have also been described as a shunt filter, so I thought it

would be interesting to compare. But I dismissed them rather

quickly when they immediately caused a piercing headache.

The piercing headache reminded me of a reaction I had

to a plugin device to scare away insects. This company

claimed that the device didn't affect people, but boy did

I have a bad reaction to it!

But I don't doubt that these filter have helped people. I just

think I may already own devices which work better for me and

my particular sensitivities. And I don't really think my

home is much of a problem.

But the thing about these people's reactions which surprise

me is that they assume that I must " imagining " that I'm

having a headache (I suppose I'm imagining that I have ES,

too?), and they will not accept that this product does not

work 100% of the time for everyone -- even though the company's

own research has shown that some people have no reaction

to them, and some have an adverse reaction.

Marc

[Guest guest]

> It isn't necessary to attack one another here. Don't folks with ES

> have enough problems?

Heh, heh... well, one of the symptoms of ES is that we get a bit

irritable, so we must be forgiving of our fellow sufferers. :-)

Besides, I've been reading some articles by Shivani, and it appears that

before she was threatening people with lawsuits, she's written

several articles on electrical pollution, and raising awareness

in the public.

One of the articles pretty much answered my earlier question

about the effectiveness of these filters outside the home:

" Arjuna is now so electrically sensitive that even the

arcing in a car's electrical system affects her and

prevents her from driving. She is essentially homebound

as the electrical pollution in most public places affects

her severely " .

This is just as I suspected. These filter don't appear to

help you much in getting out into the real world. So for

the hundreds of dollars you spend on these filters, you

still get to be homebound.

Those filters may have kept you alive Shivani, but you could

learn a thing or two here about possibly getting your life

back -- including driving and going to public places.

Marc

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2005 7:54:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,

marc@... writes:

I think if you review the archives, there was one (maybe two?)

person(s) here who have tried the Graham Stetzer filters, and reported

good results with them. I was on another discussion group

where someone bought a whole set of 20 filters, and returned

them because he was having a negative reaction to them.

I have the filters and they have definitely made a subtle, but very real

improvement in how I feel (less agitated).

By the way, you don't have to buy the whole set that is advertised in

some places. I did a web search at the time and was able to contact Dave

Stetzer (he's the electrician in Minnesota who invented them along with a

professor

emeritus in electrical engineering at UC berkeley, Professor Graham)

and order less than 20.

I live in a small apartment, so I didn't need that many. My husband

and friends have also commented that the apartment seems calmer (could be

placebo for them, but I really don't think it is for me). No affiliation with

the

graham stetzer, etc.

[Guest guest]

Hallo Marc,

your experience with the Stetzer filter is very interesting. This technology

is based on traditional physics as far as I understand, and after installing

the filter you can measure less electrical pollution with your e-meter. If

someone still gets symptoms, something in this technology is lacking. It would

be

interesting to find out what. Denial is the worst thing one can do. Also it is

very well known, that people using a Faradayan cage technology for some time

may get relief and then the symptoms reocure.

From the viewpoint of my research these phenomena can be explained by the

scalar waves that always go with the measurable transversal elektromagnetic

waves, the scalar waves, that are responsible for the non thermic biological

effect

of EMF. They follow different physical laws and can not effectively be

handled by ordinary physics.

So far these waves are ingored and even ridiculed. Quantum products,

springlife polarizers and many others work with these waves successfully mostly.

Dietrich Gruen

[Guest guest]

Hi Dietrich:

Is there any way of objectively measuring the strength of scalar waves?

In their book " Pulsors " Dr Yao and Colonel Bearden describe some very complex

instrumentation for modifying these waves - but is there something simpler out

there that the average layman could use to assess the contribution that these

waves are making to our total EMF environment?

Ray

Re: Re:Graham Stetzer " defensiveness "

Hallo Marc,

your experience with the Stetzer filter is very interesting. This technology

is based on traditional physics as far as I understand, and after installing

the filter you can measure less electrical pollution with your e-meter. If

someone still gets symptoms, something in this technology is lacking. It would

be

interesting to find out what. Denial is the worst thing one can do. Also it is

very well known, that people using a Faradayan cage technology for some time

may get relief and then the symptoms reocure.

From the viewpoint of my research these phenomena can be explained by the

scalar waves that always go with the measurable transversal elektromagnetic

waves, the scalar waves, that are responsible for the non thermic biological

effect

of EMF. They follow different physical laws and can not effectively be

handled by ordinary physics.

So far these waves are ingored and even ridiculed. Quantum products,

springlife polarizers and many others work with these waves successfully

mostly.

Dietrich Gruen

[Guest guest]

Dietrich, I find your post (and Marc's previous ones in this thread)

very interesting because of the puzzling experiences my husband and I

have had with meter readings vs. subjective experience. When we first

realized ES was an issue for us, we hired a professional EMF

consultant to meter our apartment. The magnetic readings were low but

the electrical readings were high. We started avoidance and shielding

right away, but, given that we could only mitigate our electrical

field levels to a certain extent, plus the severity of my husband's

ES symptoms, I felt we should move immediately. I purchased a body

voltage meter and trifield meter, and for two months searched for a

suitable apartment or house. I looked at dozens of apartments and

houses, and metered every single one (often with a very skeptical

potential landlord watching). Whenever he was strong enough, my

husband joined me in my search. After the first or second time,

however, we realized my husband's presence was *crucial*, not

optional, because the EMF readings I was getting with our meters did

not *necessarily* reflect his subjective experience in a particular

space. For example, one apartment with seemingly very low magnetic,

electrical, RF readings gave my husband a bad headache. But he also

got an instant, very strong headache in a house that had very high

magnetic readings. We also had our theories jumbled when we took

readings at my mother-in-law's house. My husband has always felt very

comfortable there, so we assumed the readings would be low. Wrong --

the electrical readings were higher than most we'd seen elsewhere.

After we saw the readings at my mother-in-law's house we decided NOT

to move for now, and instead sit tight where we are until we

understand better how to recognize a " safe " environment when we find

one. Meanwhile we do what we can with avoidance/shielding/grounding,

while strengthening my husband's resistance to EMFs nutritionally and

through meditation or whatever else we find that works. It does seem,

to us, that the meters are failing to measure some important factor

or factors... Whether that's because our meters are not sensitive

enough or they are simply not designed to measure certain things that

powerfully affect my husband, I am not at this point qualified to

say. But, your ideas about scalar waves are interesting because (as

I've posted previously) my husband once experimented with and had

very strong reactions to energy that was described to us as " scalar

waves " . In his case, he had both very strong positive and negative

reactions to this energy. Depending on precise modulation, the energy

seemed to have the power to either " heal " (dramatically reduce ES

symptoms, enhance energy etc.) or hurt (exhaustion, pain, etc).

So, I'd be very interested to read more about your research or even

theoretical speculation on this subject. I'm no scientist but I have

been observing my husband's experience very closely for some time and

I am strongly inclined to think there is something very important to

be learned along the lines you describe.

Cara

> Hallo Marc,

> your experience with the Stetzer filter is very interesting. This

technology

> is based on traditional physics as far as I understand, and after

installing

> the filter you can measure less electrical pollution with your e-

meter. If

> someone still gets symptoms, something in this technology is

lacking. It would be

> interesting to find out what. Denial is the worst thing one can do.

Also it is

> very well known, that people using a Faradayan cage technology for

some time

> may get relief and then the symptoms reocure.

>

> From the viewpoint of my research these phenomena can be explained

by the

> scalar waves that always go with the measurable transversal

elektromagnetic

> waves, the scalar waves, that are responsible for the non thermic

biological effect

> of EMF. They follow different physical laws and can not

effectively be

> handled by ordinary physics.

>

> So far these waves are ingored and even ridiculed. Quantum

products,

> springlife polarizers and many others work with these waves

successfully mostly.

>

> Dietrich Gruen