Re: Interesting link and more...

March 12, 2004

> I guess that I will be asked to leave the list as a result of my

> statements above (;-))!

Well, you stated your opinion, and you weren't rude about it, so

there's nothing wrong with that.

However, I don't agree with your opinion. I've done many

experiments on myself over the past 3 years under controlled

circumstances, which I think is far more scientific than you

stating your beliefs without the data to back it up. I also

began this journey as skeptical as you (my profession is an

Aerospace Engineer -- aka " Rocket Scientist " ), but through my

own repeatable experiences I could not deny the obvious truth

of the matter.

Others find it easier to live in a state of denial and ignorance.

Perhaps by staying subscribed to this list, someday we'll be

able to educate you. :-)

Marc

March 12, 2004

> Out of my own and my friend's experience regarding ES I would say that

> there are at least two categories of ES people, A) those suffering from

> direct effects from electromagnetic fields and those people who

> " believe " that they are ES!

I suppose rather than having some vague reaction to your post, I should

focus on the part I find the most objectionable.

One of the biggest problems an ES person has is that nobody believes

you. Your doctor won't believe you, your boss won't believe you,

your friends and coworker won't believe you.

I would think that on an *ES discussion group*, people would be safe

from being told that they don't really have ES. And yet, we've

already had two people on this group making accusations that others

on the list aren't really ES. To me, this is really irresponsible

behavior. Especially when these list members haven't even tried the

things they are criticizing!

And yes, if this sort of thing continues, then perhaps I will start

moderating such people. But I would hope that such people would

wise up and be more respectful towards their fellow list members.

Marc

March 12, 2004

> I am always questioning myself whether my observation is a

> result of a suggestion, and try to make both objectiive

Yes, I don't make my observations lightly either. I find it

amusing when someone suggests that a " placebo effect " is taking

place, when on numerous occasions I have forgotten to use a

device (but *thought* I was using it) and started suffering

ill effects from EMF.

Also, what exactly is the definition of a " New Age Device " ?

Anything that is not an EMF filter or shield? Sounds like this

is simply a derogatory term from someone who is knowledgeable

about electrically engineering (hey, I subscribe to the " EE

TIMES " magazine myself), but not much else.

For example, the Quantum Products device were invented by

an electrical engineer, and are based on the discoveries

of Quantum Physics. Also, it is supposed to reduce the

high frequency noise in the power lines. And yet this

is a " new age device " ??? If the critics were really

interested in the truth, they'd get one (I'd be happy

to loan them one for free), and use their oscilliscope

and see the results for themselves.

Also, the Springlife Polarizers I'm using a based on

the principles of life force energy, or " chi " . Is " chi "

a new age concept, even though it's the basis of yoga,

chinese medicine, acupuncture, and the martial arts?

Things which have been used for hundreds (thousands?)

of years by millions (billions?) of people? And

again, we've got a Springlife Polarizers being lent

out to group members for free, and yet I don't see

these people asking to try it out...

Marc

March 12, 2004

The differentiation is other

a. people exposed to EMF, but feel nothing

b. people exposed to EMF, feeling it, but do not have reactions

c. people exposed to EMF, feeling it, and reacting slightly. They can

*manage*.

d. people exposed to EMF, feeling it, reacting to it, have difficulty in

*managing*

e. people exposed to EMF, feeling it, reacting heavily, and cannot *manage*.

in MHO.

The church is the place for *believers*.

EMF is based on facts.

The Pro-mobile phone people suggest, that everybody believes in ES, and that

it is *something between the ears*.

But hundreds of studies have proved that EMF can cause biological effects,

*without warming-up*.

Also it is said, that people already had symptoms of ES, before the antennas

were set in working.

But that is not true. In many cases they were running already, in testing

phase or other.

Electrical billings proved that.

On the other hand antennas, like many metal surfaces, can react like a

secondair antenna.

So they transmit EMF, coming from other antennas.

And I have found, that stone can do the same.

In our appartment building, I walk in the corridor.

On one wall I measure the DECT phone of an neighbour opposite of our home,

145 uW/m2.

When I turn 180 degrees and measure our wall, I measure 85 uW/m2 EMF, coming

from my appartment.

I know very, very sure, that I do not have a DECT phone (cordless phone

according the DECT/GAP principle).

My wife had some trouble in the staircase corridors, at some places.

I went measuring, and yes, 190 uW/m2, from a DECT phone.

Everybody, who *believes* that they have ES, should go to a place where

there is less EMF, and see if the symptoms diminish.

If you do have symptoms, where the doctors cannot find a reasonable cause,

then you may consider ES.

The symptoms are described in the *Freiburger Appell*

Greetings,

Claessens

member Verband Baubiologie

http://members.rott.chello.nl/cclaessens/

http://www.hese-project.org

checked by Norton Antivirus

Re: Interesting link and more...

> > Out of my own and my friend's experience regarding ES I would say that

> > there are at least two categories of ES people, A) those suffering from

> > direct effects from electromagnetic fields and those people who

> > " believe " that they are ES!

>

March 12, 2004

>

> I guess that I will be asked to leave the list as a result of my

> statements above (;-))!

>

I, particularly, would prefer that you stay at the list and tell us more

about your standpoints. I would appreciate knowing the following:

1. Why do you think that somebody who is really disturbed would not wish

even to try to feel New Age stuff, the same way he feels the ES disturbance?

(None of us, I suppose, found himself ES on the basis of some measurement,

but merely believing his senses!?)

2. How do you know *you* are (really) ES?! (I am especially interested in

the hormonal reaction measurement, as I am myself concerned with objective

ways to monitor the reaction.)

3. Don't you believe that I can tell whether there is a New Age device in a

box? Also, don't you believe that there are objectively measurable effects

of such devices?!

(For example with a kind of " lie - detector " , similarly to what Dr. Dietrich

explained previously, also have you seen the http://www.emf.com/biochip.html

that cites *peer reviewed* works of Dr. Litovitz showing protective effects

of a device that has nothing to do with shielding - that effects are

observed at chicken embryos, it is hard to believe that are your " B " type

:-)) ?

I am always questioning myself whether my observation is a

result of a suggestion, and try to make both objectiive (what is extremely

difficult - but I've succesfully done EEG testing according to Dr. Klitzing)

and *blind tests* (try to guess what happens) whenever possible - it is for

practical purposes the biggest " science " available to us...

By the way, how old are you? I don't remember you told us you story (sorry

if I am wrong)?

Drasko

March 12, 2004

Re: Interesting link and more...

> I am always questioning myself whether my observation is a

> result of a suggestion, and try to make both objectiive

Yes, I don't make my observations lightly either. I find it

amusing when someone suggests that a " placebo effect " is taking

place, when on numerous occasions I have forgotten to use a

device (but *thought* I was using it) and started suffering

ill effects from EMF.

Also, what exactly is the definition of a " New Age Device " ?

Anything that is not an EMF filter or shield? Sounds like this

is simply a derogatory term from someone who is knowledgeable

about electrically engineering (hey, I subscribe to the " EE

TIMES " magazine myself), but not much else.

For example, the Quantum Products device were invented by

an electrical engineer, and are based on the discoveries

of Quantum Physics. Also, it is supposed to reduce the

high frequency noise in the power lines. And yet this

is a " new age device " ??? If the critics were really

interested in the truth, they'd get one (I'd be happy

to loan them one for free), and use their oscilliscope

and see the results for themselves.

Also, the Springlife Polarizers I'm using a based on

the principles of life force energy, or " chi " . Is " chi "

a new age concept, even though it's the basis of yoga,

chinese medicine, acupuncture, and the martial arts?

Things which have been used for hundreds (thousands?)

of years by millions (billions?) of people? And

again, we've got a Springlife Polarizers being lent

out to group members for free, and yet I don't see

these people asking to try it out...

Marc

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

March 13, 2004

Marc.

Being one of the sceptics that maybe should be

moderated..................... ( in a democratic way of course ).

I want to ask a short question on the subject of frequency.

Frequency seems to be a confusion for many participants of the list.

When you write about high-frequency noise in connection with power lines.

What do you consider to be high-frequency?

Myself i, ( when talking about power-lines ), say that low frequency is

up to some hundred hertz.

Hi-frequency is up to about some hundred Khz to maybe 1 Mhz.

I found schematics for the Steltzer filters and they seemed very

straight low-freq. nothing to really write home about.

If they are expensive it is good for Mr. Steltzer.

On the subject of chi i don´t no first thing, which i admitt, but

because it is old it does not have to work.

It is quite boring to hear that something is old and hence is beyond

critizism.

Wille Borlin

SWEDEN

Marc wrote:

>>I am always questioning myself whether my observation is a

>>result of a suggestion, and try to make both objectiive

>>

>

>Yes, I don't make my observations lightly either. I find it

>amusing when someone suggests that a " placebo effect " is taking

>place, when on numerous occasions I have forgotten to use a

>device (but *thought* I was using it) and started suffering

>ill effects from EMF.

>

>Also, what exactly is the definition of a " New Age Device " ?

>Anything that is not an EMF filter or shield? Sounds like this

>is simply a derogatory term from someone who is knowledgeable

>about electrically engineering (hey, I subscribe to the " EE

>TIMES " magazine myself), but not much else.

>

>For example, the Quantum Products device were invented by

>an electrical engineer, and are based on the discoveries

>of Quantum Physics. Also, it is supposed to reduce the

>high frequency noise in the power lines. And yet this

>is a " new age device " ??? If the critics were really

>interested in the truth, they'd get one (I'd be happy

>to loan them one for free), and use their oscilliscope

>and see the results for themselves.

>

>Also, the Springlife Polarizers I'm using a based on

>the principles of life force energy, or " chi " . Is " chi "

>a new age concept, even though it's the basis of yoga,

>chinese medicine, acupuncture, and the martial arts?

>Things which have been used for hundreds (thousands?)

>of years by millions (billions?) of people? And

>again, we've got a Springlife Polarizers being lent

>out to group members for free, and yet I don't see

>these people asking to try it out...

>

>Marc

>

March 13, 2004

On the instrument you use to measure DECT-radiation, is the antenna so

perfect that it can completely reject signals that come in of center?

I ask this because you make the sensational statement that stone can

reflect radio-waves.

If that is true it could also be a quite fantastic and cheap shielding

material.

Which leads to the question how your neighbors DECT-signal could get out

in the corridor in the first place, through the shielding stone.

Wille Borlin

SWEDEN

charles wrote:

>The differentiation is other

>

>a. people exposed to EMF, but feel nothing

>b. people exposed to EMF, feeling it, but do not have reactions

>c. people exposed to EMF, feeling it, and reacting slightly. They can

>*manage*.

>d. people exposed to EMF, feeling it, reacting to it, have difficulty in

>*managing*

>e. people exposed to EMF, feeling it, reacting heavily, and cannot *manage*.

>

>in MHO.

>

>The church is the place for *believers*.

>

>EMF is based on facts.

>The Pro-mobile phone people suggest, that everybody believes in ES, and that

>it is *something between the ears*.

>But hundreds of studies have proved that EMF can cause biological effects,

>*without warming-up*.

>Also it is said, that people already had symptoms of ES, before the antennas

>were set in working.

>But that is not true. In many cases they were running already, in testing

>phase or other.

>Electrical billings proved that.

>

>On the other hand antennas, like many metal surfaces, can react like a

>secondair antenna.

>So they transmit EMF, coming from other antennas.

>

>And I have found, that stone can do the same.

>In our appartment building, I walk in the corridor.

>On one wall I measure the DECT phone of an neighbour opposite of our home,

>145 uW/m2.

>When I turn 180 degrees and measure our wall, I measure 85 uW/m2 EMF, coming

>from my appartment.

>I know very, very sure, that I do not have a DECT phone (cordless phone

>according the DECT/GAP principle).

>

>My wife had some trouble in the staircase corridors, at some places.

>I went measuring, and yes, 190 uW/m2, from a DECT phone.

>

>Everybody, who *believes* that they have ES, should go to a place where

>there is less EMF, and see if the symptoms diminish.

>If you do have symptoms, where the doctors cannot find a reasonable cause,

>then you may consider ES.

>The symptoms are described in the *Freiburger Appell*

>

>Greetings,

> Claessens

>member Verband Baubiologie

>http://members.rott.chello.nl/cclaessens/

>http://www.hese-project.org

>checked by Norton Antivirus

>

> Re: Interesting link and more...

>

>>>Out of my own and my friend's experience regarding ES I would say that

>>>there are at least two categories of ES people, A) those suffering from

>>>direct effects from electromagnetic fields and those people who

>>> " believe " that they are ES!

>>>

>

March 13, 2004

>When you write about high-frequency noise in connection with power lines.

>What do you consider to be high-frequency?

On this subject, I only repeat the literature which comes with the

products. However, I refer to products which had a clear, repeatable, and

dramatic impact on my health and ability to tolerate EMF, which is the only

thing which is important to me. I don't really care what the frequencies

are. I just care that I am able to tolerate them!

>On the subject of chi i don´t no first thing, which i admitt, but

>because it is old it does not have to work.

>It is quite boring to hear that something is old and hence is beyond

>critizism.

Well, of course. But again, I only mention this because I have tried it,

and it has worked for me. There is also an energy healing performed by

practitioners called " Reiki " . This also claims to use " chi " . This is also

pretty popular these days, but of course, being popular does not mean that

it works. However, I have paid for some sessions in this, and could feel

the energy during the sessions. And what I felt is exactly the same as

what I feel when using the Springlife polarizers. So my conclusion is that

what I'm feeling is the effects of " chi " . (and the Springlife polarizers

are a cheaper alternative to Reiki, as going to a Reiki practitioner costs

$60 for an hour of chi, while a $90 Springlife Polarizer will provide you

with years of it -- well, at least 6 months worth, which is how long I've

had them... :-)

Marc

March 13, 2004

Hello Wille Borlin,

firstly let me explain the matter of frequencies.

We call from 0 Hz up to about 1 Mhz low frequency, where from 0Hz to 20 Hz

we call extreme low frequency.

From 1 MHz up to in the 1 Ghz we call high frequency.

One of the reasons is, that in the low frequency field, the electrical and

the magnetical alternating field are separate, so they must be measured with

separate meters.

In the high frequency field, the electrical and the magnetic alternating

field are interwoven into each other. By measuring one field, the other can

be calculated.

Mostly we only measure the electrical field.

The building biologists speak in terms of uW/m2 (micro Watts per square

meter), the elctrical engineers speak about V/m, or Volts per meter.

DECT signals do have a special characteristic in sound (coming from a

meter), so it is very easy to distinguish it from other signals.

A number of high frequency meters do find it easily.

The cheapest is the ia HF Detektor II (see *het bitje* september 2002,

on

http://members.rott.chello.nl/cclaessens/Pagina37.html)

Its sound quality is not so good, but with the earpeace it is better.

Then there is the Endotronic Esmog Spion.

(See *het bitje* april 2003) Extremely well in sound.

I use the Endotronic HF Digitmeter II, with a logarithmic periodic

directional antenna.

(pictures in *het bitje* juli 2003, and september 2002).

With it, I can locate DECT phones 3 houses away.

The above mentioned meters do have an AGC, automatic gain control.

They reinforce the weak signals to an audible level, which is NOT in

accordance to its signal strength.

For quantitative measurement I use the Gigahertz Solutions HF Analyser

HF58B, which has a special logarithmic periodic antenna.

(see *het bitje* October/Februari 2004)

Here the signals are proportional in strength as in audible level.

My statement that stone can reflect radio-waves is certainly not

sensational.

In fact it is quite common, and one has to take this into account when one

measures the HF radiation.

Around antennas and buildings, one has to look for reflections and take this

into account.

There the HF Digitmeter II is a very handy instrument (see the picture in

*het bitje* september 2002, where on page 13 a magnetic *Hotspot* antenna is

shown.

With it, I find socalled *hot-spots* in rooms. They have commonly the size

of a small football.

It is a spot where several HF radiation beams are coming together (from

phones, radio, television, radar, data, fax, etc.)

The first time I used it, I found a hotspot on the pillow of my wife, and on

the spot, where she always had a cold hip, on the bed. After shielding, it

was over.

Now the stone.

I measure around DECT phones up to 1800 uW/m2.

I do not know how much my neighbours DECT is transmitting.

I wrote: *> >On one wall I measure the DECT phone of an neighbour opposite

of our home,

> >145 uW/m2.

> >When I turn 180 degrees and measure our wall, I measure 85 uW/m2 EMF,

coming

> >from my appartment.*

That means, that through the neighbours wall is coming an amount of 145

uW/m2.

That goes through the corridor (2 meter) against my wall.

With my back against those 145 uW/m2, I measure, coming from my wall 85

uW/m2.

That is reflection coming from my wall. A few months ago, that was zilch!!!!

Inside my appartment I measure 35 uW/m2.

So, the stone brickwall is shielding something, but largely not enough.

What surprises me, is the fact, that now the wall is working like a

secundair antenna.

I know from a german writer, who wrote an interesting book on

electrosensibility, and who described a number of *things*, that worked very

well in the beginning, but later on seemed to absorb the negative influence

of the HF radiation, and started to emit it themselves.

We found this with for instance with the american BioElectrical Shield.

Putting it several days on a Purple Plate *cleaned* and charged it again.

Building materials can shield.

One can see that, when several buildings stand between you and the antenna.

That is the reason, that the swiss people are so mad about their socalled

low official radiation values.

These immission (not emission) values are quite normal with their thick

walls and small windows.

I hope that I answered your questions satisfactory.

Greetings,

Claessens

member Verband Baubiologie

http://members.rott.chello.nl/cclaessens/

http://www.hese-project.org

checked by Norton Antivirus

Re: Interesting link and more...

> >

> >>>Out of my own and my friend's experience regarding ES I would say that

> >>>there are at least two categories of ES people, A) those suffering from

> >>>direct effects from electromagnetic fields and those people who

> >>> " believe " that they are ES!

> >>>

> >

March 13, 2004

Hello Wille Borlin,

with Powerlines, we do generally not speak about frequencies.

It is not the electrical alternating fields that are disturbing us.

It is the magnetic alternating fields that gives the most worry.

We are lulled into oblivion with the remarks that a 100 uT, or microTesla is

not to worry about, but we building biologists speak about nT, or NanoTesla.

100 uT is 100,000 nT.

And we say, one should try to stay under 20 nT, in order not to get sick.

Magnetic fields one can feel.

The TCO norm for computer monitors says 200 nT at 30 cm for the

frequncyrange of 5-2000 Hz and 25 nT for the frequncy range from 2-400 KHz.

The background *noise* for cities is 50-60 nT, while on the countryside this

is 20-30 nT (generally).

For electrosensible people, the combination of magnetic fields and the

accompanying frequency can have another effect.

Tests have shown that a certain person did not react to a strong magnetic

field of 5000 nT at 50 Hz, but heavily on a weak 350 Hz field of only 30 nT.

Also on a 150 and a 550 Hz field.

Some examples:

Television when running: 50 cm 3500 nT

idem when on standby; 50 cm 300 nT

TL light: 50 cm 1100 nT

Small trafo: 20 cm > 3000 nT

El radio alarm clock: 20 cm 1000-2000 nT

idem :5 cm 30,000 nT

El heating blanket: 1 cm up to 10,000 nT

Greetings,

Claessens

member Verband Baubiologie

http://members.rott.chello.nl/cclaessens/

http://www.hese-project.org

checked by Norton Antivirus

Re: Interesting link and more...

Marc.

Being one of the sceptics that maybe should be

moderated..................... ( in a democratic way of course ).

I want to ask a short question on the subject of frequency.

Frequency seems to be a confusion for many participants of the list.

When you write about high-frequency noise in connection with power lines.

What do you consider to be high-frequency?

Myself i, ( when talking about power-lines ), say that low frequency is

up to some hundred hertz.

Hi-frequency is up to about some hundred Khz to maybe 1 Mhz.

I found schematics for the Steltzer filters and they seemed very

straight low-freq. nothing to really write home about.

If they are expensive it is good for Mr. Steltzer.

On the subject of chi i don´t no first thing, which i admitt, but

because it is old it does not have to work.

It is quite boring to hear that something is old and hence is beyond

critizism.

Wille Borlin

SWEDEN

Marc wrote:

>>I am always questioning myself whether my observation is a

>>result of a suggestion, and try to make both objectiive

>>

>

>Yes, I don't make my observations lightly either. I find it

>amusing when someone suggests that a " placebo effect " is taking

>place, when on numerous occasions I have forgotten to use a

>device (but *thought* I was using it) and started suffering

>ill effects from EMF.

>

>Also, what exactly is the definition of a " New Age Device " ?

>Anything that is not an EMF filter or shield? Sounds like this

>is simply a derogatory term from someone who is knowledgeable

>about electrically engineering (hey, I subscribe to the " EE

>TIMES " magazine myself), but not much else.

>

>For example, the Quantum Products device were invented by

>an electrical engineer, and are based on the discoveries

>of Quantum Physics. Also, it is supposed to reduce the

>high frequency noise in the power lines. And yet this

>is a " new age device " ??? If the critics were really

>interested in the truth, they'd get one (I'd be happy

>to loan them one for free), and use their oscilliscope

>and see the results for themselves.

>

>Also, the Springlife Polarizers I'm using a based on

>the principles of life force energy, or " chi " . Is " chi "

>a new age concept, even though it's the basis of yoga,

>chinese medicine, acupuncture, and the martial arts?

>Things which have been used for hundreds (thousands?)

>of years by millions (billions?) of people? And

>again, we've got a Springlife Polarizers being lent

>out to group members for free, and yet I don't see

>these people asking to try it out...

>

>Marc

>

March 14, 2004

Marc,

I am well informed about frequency and radiation and don´t need a course

on that.

Why i asked is because the discussion was about mains-line cabling.

These cables has a very limited capacity to spread ( really )

high-frequency signals.

Thats why i want to define what we talk about.

High is relative.

High on mains cables is 1 Mhz.

High in radio and radar has no real limits.

Marc,s attitude is that nothing matters as long as it helps.

Fine.

But it is impossible to spread knowledge this way.

Nobody can draw conclusions if the phenomena is not well specified and

the " cure " equally well described.

try to make these kind of measures even if i doubt a lot of his

conclusions.

My conclusion is that i don´t get any knowledge from this list, only a

lot of mails................

To be to nosy and curious also irritates others which is an unnecessary

waste of energy.

I will therefore leave the list.

Thank you for you time gentlemen.

Wille Borlin

SWEDEN

Marc wrote:

>>When you write about high-frequency noise in connection with power lines.

>>What do you consider to be high-frequency?

>>

>

>On this subject, I only repeat the literature which comes with the

>products. However, I refer to products which had a clear, repeatable, and

>dramatic impact on my health and ability to tolerate EMF, which is the only

>thing which is important to me. I don't really care what the frequencies

>are. I just care that I am able to tolerate them!

>

>>On the subject of chi i don´t no first thing, which i admitt, but

>>because it is old it does not have to work.

>>It is quite boring to hear that something is old and hence is beyond

>>critizism.

>>

>

>Well, of course. But again, I only mention this because I have tried it,

>and it has worked for me. There is also an energy healing performed by

>practitioners called " Reiki " . This also claims to use " chi " . This is also

>pretty popular these days, but of course, being popular does not mean that

>it works. However, I have paid for some sessions in this, and could feel

>the energy during the sessions. And what I felt is exactly the same as

>what I feel when using the Springlife polarizers. So my conclusion is that

>what I'm feeling is the effects of " chi " . (and the Springlife polarizers

>are a cheaper alternative to Reiki, as going to a Reiki practitioner costs

>$60 for an hour of chi, while a $90 Springlife Polarizer will provide you

>with years of it -- well, at least 6 months worth, which is how long I've

>had them... :-)

>

>Marc

>

March 14, 2004

Hello members,

I am sorry, that Wille Borlin did not find here, what he is looking for.

On the other hand, this list is for electrosensible people, who do hope in

finding here solutions for their problems.

It is not important if all equations are right, and if the theories behind

everything match the momentary going ones.

Electrosensibles do not care about that.

They are only interested in working solutions.

Even if they come from the Moon.

As long as they work.

My explanations are not meant to be courses, but only to bring a bit more

understanding about what we are talking here.

Normal civilians do not know what the difference is between low and high

frequencies.

They only know that they get a headache from it.

Most electricians do not know what magnetic fields are!!

They can not measure them.

They only have a Voltmeter, but not a Gauss- or Tesla meter.