Atkins and vegetarianism

[Guest guest]

There are many Atkins dieters that ARE vegetarians. There are lists

of such folks. You don't have to eat meat to " do " Atkins. It would be hard

if you were vegan, with no eggs. But still possible. You can getthe

protein you need from non-carb protein isolate powders. Not delicious, but

works. And people have misconceptions about people on Atkins not eating

vegatables, or no carbs. You strongly limit carbs for only 2 weeks - but

even during that time you eat at least 3 cups of leafy green vegetables each

day. And the first things you add back are more vegetables, increasing up

to the point that you no longer are losing weight. I eat a HUGE bowl of

salad, broccoli, onions, garlic, ginger, peppers, nuts, each day for lunch,

and a smaller salad for dinner. Joy

I believe in being fair to Atkins - even though his diet

> is not for me because of it being high in meat.

[Guest guest]

Is the zone diet any good? Thanks.

Re: Atkins and vegetarianism

I know all about the Banting Diet Lorenzo, been studying and living

the life of a Low Carber for quite a few years now. Your right the

first low-carbohydrate diet book was written in 1863 by

Banting and even at that time it was a controversy. However it was

Dr. Harvey who prescribed this diet to him, so the credit

should really go to Dr Harvey. Although I believe that this way of

eating is historically important, I give Dr. Atkins my gratitude for

bringing back the revolution; he was a physician whose earning should

come from what he did. He has developed and updated his diet since

the 70's, fought conventional health care and nutrition thinking for

decades in order to pursue his vision, studied the science behind it

and tested it on a large number of patients before presenting it to

the public.

Now a day, you'll find many popular low carb diet plans on

bookshelves these days, The Zone, Protein Power, Carbohydrate

Addicts, Sommer Sizing, South Beach, Schwarzbein, Life Without

Bread, you name it, but the authors of these books don't seem to get

the flack like Dr. Atkins does. Simple put a diet war!

Sharon R

who will be `banting' for the rest of her life

> Interesting enough this Atkins type diet has been going on for

over a

> hundred years. Do a search on the " Banting Diet " !

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Sara,

yes, a friend told me that you can do atkins as a vegetearian. The thing is,

I have always hated following diet plans. I don't like to have to eat

certain things at certain times, count calories, think about vitamins etc,

worry about deficiencies, weigh protein grams, and all that. I'm just not

the type - I follow my natural instinct, and it seems to work for me. I

also don't take supplements - never have, never will!

Sharon M

Re: Atkins and vegetarianism

> There are many Atkins dieters that ARE vegetarians. There are lists

> of such folks. You don't have to eat meat to " do " Atkins. It would be

hard

> if you were vegan, with no eggs. But still possible. You can getthe

> protein you need from non-carb protein isolate powders. Not delicious,

but

> works. And people have misconceptions about people on Atkins not eating

> vegatables, or no carbs. You strongly limit carbs for only 2 weeks - but

> even during that time you eat at least 3 cups of leafy green vegetables

each

> day. And the first things you add back are more vegetables, increasing up

> to the point that you no longer are losing weight. I eat a HUGE bowl of

> salad, broccoli, onions, garlic, ginger, peppers, nuts, each day for

lunch,

> and a smaller salad for dinner. Joy

>

> I believe in being fair to Atkins - even though his diet

> > is not for me because of it being high in meat.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It has it's followers. I think it's more low fat than low carb.

One of the big problems with the Zone diet is that you are supposed to eat exact

proportions of protein, fat and carbs. You have to

carry a scale, measuring cups, counter for the three food types and a calculator

everywhere you go so you can be sure you don't

misjudge the portions.

For those of you who have read " Adventures in Micronutrient Land " you know that

trying to guess at the content of food is not easy.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

From: pbanagal [mailto:pbanagal@...]

Is the zone diet any good? Thanks.

[Guest guest]

I started my " diet " over 50 years ago with Gaylord Hauser, It was aimed at

nutritious food, it included whole grains but no sugar, or refined grain.

Best Regards,

Lorenzo

More the one third of Seniors own a gun!

Seniors: The largest group owning a gun!

Too old to fight or run, I carry a gun!

RE: Re: Atkins and vegetarianism

Back in the 1970s, not too long after his first book came out, the US

government did a review of “diet frauds.” But Atkins is the

only one called to account. Anyone who has a copy of his “Diet Revolution”

first book will find a transcript in the back. Some of

the very first copies did not have it, but all the rest do. Very

interesting. Last I knew some bookstores still have it.

Some fad diet. A book in print for 30+ years!

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

From: Sharon [mailto:crazymaisy_99@...]

I know all about the Banting Diet Lorenzo, been studying and living

the life of a Low Carber for quite a few years now. Your right the

first low-carbohydrate diet book was written in 1863 by

Banting and even at that time it was a controversy. However it was

Dr. Harvey who prescribed this diet to him, so the credit

should really go to Dr Harvey. Although I believe that this way of

eating is historically important, I give Dr. Atkins my gratitude for

bringing back the revolution; he was a physician whose earning should

come from what he did. He has developed and updated his diet since

the 70's, fought conventional health care and nutrition thinking for

decades in order to pursue his vision, studied the science behind it

and tested it on a large number of patients before presenting it to

the public.

Now a day, you'll find many popular low carb diet plans on

bookshelves these days, The Zone, Protein Power, Carbohydrate

Addicts, Sommer Sizing, South Beach, Schwarzbein, Life Without

Bread, you name it, but the authors of these books don't seem to get

the flack like Dr. Atkins does. Simple put a diet war!

Sharon R

who will be `banting' for the rest of her life

[Guest guest]

These are carbs? " salad, broccoli, onions, garlic, ginger, peppers,

nuts, " ?????????????

I thought carbs were pasta, bagels, doughnuts, chips, crackers and cooked

root vegetables.

Best Regards,

Lorenzo

Best Regards,

Lorenzo

For " Good Medicine " See: Dr. Bolen, Dr. Cathcart, Dr. Rath, Dr. Hoffer, Dr.

Saul, Dr. Price and Linus ing! Use Google to find them.

Re: Atkins and vegetarianism

There are many Atkins dieters that ARE vegetarians. There are lists

of such folks. You don't have to eat meat to " do " Atkins. It would be hard

if you were vegan, with no eggs. But still possible. You can getthe

protein you need from non-carb protein isolate powders. Not delicious, but

works. And people have misconceptions about people on Atkins not eating

vegatables, or no carbs. You strongly limit carbs for only 2 weeks - but

even during that time you eat at least 3 cups of leafy green vegetables each

day. And the first things you add back are more vegetables, increasing up

to the point that you no longer are losing weight. I eat a HUGE bowl of

salad, broccoli, onions, garlic, ginger, peppers, nuts, each day for lunch,

and a smaller salad for dinner. Joy

I believe in being fair to Atkins - even though his diet

> is not for me because of it being high in meat.

[Guest guest]

>

> These are carbs? " salad, broccoli, onions, garlic, ginger, peppers,

> nuts, " ?????????????

yes of course they have carb counts. The Atkins book (if you were

going to follow this strictly) does not recommend onions because of

the sugar content. All the rest are fibrous low-carb veggies - as for

nuts they have carbs and fat, so you shouldn't eat too much at one

sitting, though the fat is good for you and fills you up.

Atkins isn't really zero-carb. Except perhaps for the 2/week

induction period (max of 20g/day which is pretty low) - the

maintenance phase can allow up to 100g or more of carbohydrates per

day depending on the individual.

The Zone and South Beach are more generous with carb intake.

[Guest guest]

At 12:15 PM 3/2/2004 +0800, pbanagal wrote:

>Is the zone diet any good? Thanks.

>

It's good only if you like to do math :-)

The Zone is based on a strict ratio of 40:40:20

where this is

40% of calories from carbs

40% protein

20% fat

Also unlike Atkins, the Zone frowns on saturated fat and hypes up

monounsaturated fat (olive oil) and omega-3 (fish oil) instead.

I dunno what Barry Sears thinks of coconut oil - I think his books are

silent on the subject.

[Guest guest]

\

> The Zone is based on a strict ratio of 40:40:20

Oops, sorry, my mistake. That is actually 40:30:30

40% carb, 30% protein, 30% fat

[Guest guest]

Has anybody here read Barry Groves, Eat Fat Get Thin? It's very good - also high

fat (especially saturated fat), low carb. He has a website called

www.second-opinions.co.uk; here's a very good article on fat.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/eatfat.html

However, he too is silent about coconut oil. A pity. He does quote Enig

frequently though so I hope one day he'll come around to recommending it! He's

also a member of thincs.

Sharon M

Re: Re: Atkins and vegetarianism

At 12:15 PM 3/2/2004 +0800, pbanagal wrote:

>Is the zone diet any good? Thanks.

>

It's good only if you like to do math :-)

The Zone is based on a strict ratio of 40:40:20

where this is

40% of calories from carbs

40% protein

20% fat

Also unlike Atkins, the Zone frowns on saturated fat and hypes up

monounsaturated fat (olive oil) and omega-3 (fish oil) instead.

I dunno what Barry Sears thinks of coconut oil - I think his books are

silent on the subject.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Here's another article from the website; it's a warning against low-carb diets,

that seems to have appeared inthe British Press. Barry Grove replie to it on his

website.

" Doctors warned over high protein diets

DOCTORS are being warned that they could face legal action if they fail to

advise their patients against high protein, low-carbohydrate diets. Medical

experts in Britain say that the country's obsession with weight means many

people are becoming 'carbophobes', rejecting healthy low fat diets in favour of

dangerous 'celebrity' diets such as the Atkins diet .... "

Read the full article and Barry's reply at:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/doctors_sued.html

Sharon M

[Guest guest]

> However, he too is silent about coconut oil. A pity. He does quote

Enig frequently though so I hope one day he'll come around to

recommending it! He's also a member of thincs.

I'm curious what the usual gang of " low carb diet gurus " i.e. Atkins,

Sears, Agaston, etc. all thought of coconut oil. The only book I read

was Atkins' and while he didn't think saturated fats were bad I don't

remember him saying anything about coconut oil's Medium chain fatty

acids that differentiate it from animal fat.

Most books I read lump coconut and palm oils along with saturated

animal fat which doesnt give the full picture.

If Sears and Agaston (who recommend both recommend a mediterranean-

style relatively high fat diet) at least can be induced to endorse

coconut oil in addition to their usual olive oil-omega-3 tandem, that

would go a long way in making virgin coconut oil more mainstream and

less of a rarity in North America.

Since what happens in North America usually influences the rest of

the world then the rest (Europe, Asia, Latin America, Africa) would

follow suit.

[Guest guest]

I think these people - and the media in general - just are not yet ready to

investigate coconut oil. Speaking from Britain, I can say this: for the past

five- six months I have been writing to various newspapers and magazines with

offers of articles (I am a journalist) about coconut oil. They have all without

exception rejected my articles - even though the information I gave was quite

dramatic. I've only had one minor success: a columnist for the Observer (one of

thre main Sunday newspapers here) on nutrtition wrote about free radicals and

since he says he welcomes comments and suggestions from members of the public I

wrote him about coconut oil. he replied in a very friendly way and said he had

heard about coconut oil, and would look into it. I sent him a few website links

and recommended Fife's books; I haven't heard from him since and I don't know if

the article he promised to write ws ever done. perhaps I'll write and ask in a

day or two.

But it's essential for the mainstream media to wake up. I suggest we all keep

eyes and ears open and just keep battering them with readers' letters. Sooner or

later they have to take note!

I think the moment one serious newspaper or magazine (Woman's World is not

serious enough!) takes an interest in coconut oil and prints something positive,

the others will follow suit, or at least investigate. It's up to us to get the

word out.

For example, recently Newsweek did a cover story about fats where they said a

lot of nonsense. I immediately wanted to send them a reader's letter but I was

abroad and had no access to internet and by the time I returned it was too late.

But I think this is one way of making ourselves heard. Why don't we start a

campaign of bombardment?

..

Re: Atkins and vegetarianism

> However, he too is silent about coconut oil. A pity. He does quote

Enig frequently though so I hope one day he'll come around to

recommending it! He's also a member of thincs.

I'm curious what the usual gang of " low carb diet gurus " i.e. Atkins,

Sears, Agaston, etc. all thought of coconut oil. The only book I read

was Atkins' and while he didn't think saturated fats were bad I don't

remember him saying anything about coconut oil's Medium chain fatty

acids that differentiate it from animal fat.

Most books I read lump coconut and palm oils along with saturated

animal fat which doesnt give the full picture.

If Sears and Agaston (who recommend both recommend a mediterranean-

style relatively high fat diet) at least can be induced to endorse

coconut oil in addition to their usual olive oil-omega-3 tandem, that

would go a long way in making virgin coconut oil more mainstream and

less of a rarity in North America.

Since what happens in North America usually influences the rest of

the world then the rest (Europe, Asia, Latin America, Africa) would

follow suit.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Judith. Maybe one has to eat at home of one has to keep measuring all

her intakes.

RE: Re: Atkins and vegetarianism

It has it's followers. I think it's more low fat than low carb.

One of the big problems with the Zone diet is that you are supposed to eat

exact proportions of protein, fat and carbs. You have to

carry a scale, measuring cups, counter for the three food types and a

calculator everywhere you go so you can be sure you don't

misjudge the portions.

For those of you who have read " Adventures in Micronutrient Land " you know

that trying to guess at the content of food is not easy.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

From: pbanagal [mailto:pbanagal@...]

Is the zone diet any good? Thanks.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jim

Re: Re: Atkins and vegetarianism

At 12:15 PM 3/2/2004 +0800, pbanagal wrote:

>Is the zone diet any good? Thanks.

>

It's good only if you like to do math :-)

The Zone is based on a strict ratio of 40:40:20

where this is

40% of calories from carbs

40% protein

20% fat

Also unlike Atkins, the Zone frowns on saturated fat and hypes up

monounsaturated fat (olive oil) and omega-3 (fish oil) instead.

I dunno what Barry Sears thinks of coconut oil - I think his books are

silent on the subject.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

All these things have carbs, absolutely. They are the " good " kind of carbs,

as opposed to the processed carbs of pasta etc., but you still have to limit

the good carbs - INITIALLY, to make the transition into ketotonic

metabolism. Even during those two weeks you eat 3 cups of raw fresh greens,

however. But a max of 20 carbs. JUST FOR TWO WEEKS. Then you start adding

back - a few carbs a week - only the good carbs, till you reach the level

where you stop losing weight, and back down about 5 carbs from there - you

stick at or around that level to lose your weight, then up again slowly to

find your maintenace level of carbs. This IS a very healthful diet, and

can accomodate almost any tastes/preferences from the dieter. Most of us,

as some one else mentioned, consider this not a diet but a wy of life. My

tastes may change along with the seasons and the years for taht matter, or

my needs change, but I can fit whatever new things I healthfully choose to

eat into this way of eating and living. Joy

Re: Atkins and vegetarianism

>

>

> There are many Atkins dieters that ARE vegetarians. There are lists

> of such folks. You don't have to eat meat to " do " Atkins. It would be

hard

> if you were vegan, with no eggs. But still possible. You can getthe

> protein you need from non-carb protein isolate powders. Not delicious,

but

> works. And people have misconceptions about people on Atkins not eating

> vegatables, or no carbs. You strongly limit carbs for only 2 weeks - but

> even during that time you eat at least 3 cups of leafy green vegetables

each

> day. And the first things you add back are more vegetables, increasing up

> to the point that you no longer are losing weight. I eat a HUGE bowl of

> salad, broccoli, onions, garlic, ginger, peppers, nuts, each day for

lunch,

> and a smaller salad for dinner. Joy

>

> I believe in being fair to Atkins - even though his diet

> > is not for me because of it being high in meat.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

.. The Atkins book (if you were

> going to follow this strictly) does not recommend onions because of

> the sugar content.

Actually, this is incorrect. They are limited but not denied even during

induction period. After that it is simply a matter of keeping track of the

actual carb count for the amount used. Even the recipes in his books use

onions. Joy

[Guest guest]

There is no requirement in human nutrition for carbs. Some people feel

better if they eat some carbs. But they won't die if they don't.

Even the USDA does, that puts a requirement on everything, does not set a

minimum limit for carbs.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

From: Wilkins [mailto:montemomma2002@...]

If its not a fat or a protein , it is a carb.But they are good for you

carbs. low in carbs high in fiber.We cant live without getting a few carbs

even on the strictest of low carb diets.

IN NC

[Guest guest]

Well, not exactly true. Thing is there are things you get in carbs that you

can't well get in other things. Doesn't mean a lot of carbs - but Dr.

atkins STRONGLY suggested that you not go below 20 per day, even on

induction - that you NEED the nutrients from those veggies. And he

strongly suggested that you eat as many carbs as you can and still lose or

maintain. So, there isn't a specified requirement - and I would agree with

you that what works best is a very individualized determination. However, I

don't think one would be very healthy with no carbs. Apparently neither did

Dr. Atkins. Joy

> There is no requirement in human nutrition for carbs.

[Guest guest]

But we can live....There is no such thing as an essential

carbohydrate, in fact, the body will survive without carbs of any

sort. However, true, we do feel better when we get our veggies in.

Sharon R

We cant live without getting a few carbs even on the strictest of low

carb diets.

> IN NC

[Guest guest]

Being without rice, potatoes, breads, pastas, etc., does not mean we are totally

out of carbs. Carbs are also found in vegetables and fruits. So even if we

just eat veggies and fruits we still get some carbs into our system. Look at

the carbs charts for fruits and vegetables.

RE: Atkins and vegetarianism

There is no requirement in human nutrition for carbs. Some people feel

better if they eat some carbs. But they won't die if they don't.

Even the USDA does, that puts a requirement on everything, does not set a

minimum limit for carbs.

Judith Alta

-----Original Message-----

From: Wilkins [mailto:montemomma2002@...]

If its not a fat or a protein , it is a carb.But they are good for you

carbs. low in carbs high in fiber.We cant live without getting a few carbs

even on the strictest of low carb diets.

IN NC

[Guest guest]

Do not forget the Greenland Eskimo, A few berries in the summer is their

total carb allowance. They were healthy.

Best Regards,

Lorenzo

For " Good Medicine " See: Dr. Bolen, Dr. Cathcart, Dr. Rath, Dr. Hoffer, Dr.

Saul, Dr. Price and Linus ing! Use Google to find them.

Re: Atkins and vegetarianism

Well, not exactly true. Thing is there are things you get in carbs that you

can't well get in other things. Doesn't mean a lot of carbs - but Dr.

atkins STRONGLY suggested that you not go below 20 per day, even on

induction - that you NEED the nutrients from those veggies. And he

strongly suggested that you eat as many carbs as you can and still lose or

maintain. So, there isn't a specified requirement - and I would agree with

you that what works best is a very individualized determination. However, I

don't think one would be very healthy with no carbs. Apparently neither did

Dr. Atkins. Joy

> There is no requirement in human nutrition for carbs.

---

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[Guest guest]

on 3/3/04 2:49 AM, Lorenzo at Coconut Oil wrote:

> Do not forget the Greenland Eskimo, A few berries in the summer is their

> total carb allowance. They were healthy.

But we mustn't forget that different ethnicities have developed different

requirements. Here is an article you might find interesting by a

practitioner:

by Krispin Sullivan, C.N.

Perfect Diet: Real food, whole food, whatever works for the person, usually

has some ethnic base re protein, carb and fat sources. Just to avoid

confusion this has NOTHING to do with blood types, we are talking ancestral

heritage. Examples include

Ancestors from island or coastal regions consider fish. Others may thrive on

dairy (hopefully fresh and organic). Others are meat eaters and yet others

use grains and pulses and nuts and seeds.

Fats near the equator higher in saturated fats, coconut, palm, ghee, lard.

Fats near the poles higher in omega-3. Midline try the omega-9, how

convenient that these fats are derived from foods that grow naturally

according to climate (distance from the sun)

Grains for those with ancestors who used them but not genetically engineered

and 'fresh', that is ground and baked or cooked TODAY. Other carbs for

others such as taro for Hawaii, manioc for Zaire, potatoes for the UK, you

get the idea.

If you are a mutt follow your instincts. Instincts work very well if you

only use REAL, FRESH unprocessed food. Fresh is tough in America as we

create things that appear to store well but like manna these foods rot

quickly without showing the signs. This 'rotting' includes many foods from

so called health food stores. Processing is processing.

A line I use in my classes is that 'the offspring of a native Hawaiian

married to a native Alaskan might well thrive on pineapple and blubber'. It

isn't as far fetched as it may sound. It also implies that marrying outside

your ethnicity may work well for only one of the family members unless

individual and different meals are prepared for each member.

Again, Sally Fallon's new edition of Nourishing Traditions has the recipes

and the research. 1-877-707-1776. I love this book and the new edition has

even more research on the problem with soy, new fat research and more and

the recipes are fantastic. I always get distracted when I read the clinical

data (on every page, next to the recipes) I can't decide on whether to

continue to feed my mind or go cook and eat.

~~~~~~~~~~~

-- Joan McPhee, MH, WT

mailto:mcpheej@... --

[Guest guest]

>All I can say is is that I hace been perfectly healthy for the last

>30 years, without red meat and only occasionally chicken or fish -

>apart from a slight overweight - nothing drastic, but which vanished

>when I changed oils (I used to use vegetable oils and soya till

>about a year ago.) The only thing needed was coconut oil.

Sharon, your diet sounds quite good, and the most important thing is

it works for you, but make no mistake, you are not a vegetarian if

you eat chicken and fish. Nothing wrong with that!

Regards,

Jeanmarie

>Recently my doctor had to give a medical report on my health and

>state what illnesses I have had in the last 10 years. All there was

>were a couple of warts! I am 52 years old. I eat by instinct - I

>never think about vitamins or worry if I'm getting enough of this or

>that nutrient. I believe the body takes care of itself if the mind

>stays healthy - and the latter was always my first priority. I

>practice hatha yoga and meditation (since I was 19) and believe

>that has and enormous influence. Might be unscientific but it works

>for me! I could not eat meat even if I wanted to.

>Salud!

>Sharon M

[Guest guest]

>At 12:15 PM 3/2/2004 +0800, pbanagal wrote:

>>Is the zone diet any good? Thanks.

>>

>

>It's good only if you like to do math :-)

>

>The Zone is based on a strict ratio of 40:40:20

>where this is

>40% of calories from carbs

>40% protein

>20% fat

I've always read the proportion was 40-30-30; I have a book on the

subject. I read " Entering the Zone " when it first came out but other

nutritionists I admire critique Barry Sears' conclusions on various

technical points that I can't recall. Atkins said the total carbs,

not just the ratio at a meal, is still important.

Some proponents of 40-30-30 say the exact ratio is nothing to sweat

over; the point is to have balance at each meal to keep blood sugar

steady. In other words, eat some fat and protein with your

carbohydrates so you don't send your blood sugar up high, provoking

an insulin response.

jeanmarie