Re: Dairy cows and emf effects

October 19, 2006

Hi folks and " abailey " :

The letter below could be a bit misleading, because it could appear

that the author (I do not know the name of the person who sent the

post, as she/he did not sign their name) may be inferring that the

problem which affected the cows -- and for which the judgement was

awarded -- was due to EMF fields or E-fields or magnetic fields, and

this is not the case. Rather, livestock " stray voltage " problems such

as the one described in the article involve actual electrical

currents which pass through the soil and which pass through the

hooves of cows, causing discomfort and disrupting bodily rhythms. It

can be likened to someone hooking up electrodes to the bottoms of

each of your bare feet and passing a small electrical current across

the two feet (through your body).

with care,

--Vinny

At 03:30 PM 10/19/2006, you wrote:

>I thought you might find this article interesting. Apparently farmers

>can sue for damages that emf causes dairy cows. I guess its harder for

>us humans to quantify economic damage. Could be a legal precedent

>though.

>

>Dairy farmers win $1.1 million against utility

>

>The Baumgardners of Skagit Valley had been mystified for years about

>what was making their cows sick and milk production drop. They traced

>it to stray voltage infiltrating their barn, and they want more

>farmers made aware of the issue.

>

>Full story:

>http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?\

slug=dairy18m & date=20061018

>

Vinny Pinto

vinny@...

phone 301-694-1249

To see my informational websites and e-mail list groups, please go to:

http://www.vinnypinto.us

October 19, 2006

Hello,

in Germany many farmes experienced heavy problems with their pigs and cows,

when mobile phone masts did apprear.

There was an uproar, and the government did undertake a study (Die Rinder

Studie).

However, veterinaries and other scientists, who did participate in this

study reported, that their findings were misinterpretated, or just left out

of the original report.

The problems are still there.

Greetings,

Claessens

member Verband Baubiologie

www.milieuziektes.nl

www.milieuziektes.be

www.hetbitje.nl

checked by Norton Antivirus

Re: Dairy cows and emf effects

> Hi folks and " abailey " :

>

> The letter below could be a bit misleading, because it could appear

> that the author (I do not know the name of the person who sent the

> post, as she/he did not sign their name) may be inferring that the

> problem which affected the cows -- and for which the judgement was

> awarded -- was due to EMF fields or E-fields or magnetic fields, and

> this is not the case. Rather, livestock " stray voltage " problems such

> as the one described in the article involve actual electrical

> currents which pass through the soil and which pass through the

> hooves of cows, causing discomfort and disrupting bodily rhythms. It

> can be likened to someone hooking up electrodes to the bottoms of

> each of your bare feet and passing a small electrical current across

> the two feet (through your body).

>

> with care,

> --Vinny

>

> At 03:30 PM 10/19/2006, you wrote:

>>I thought you might find this article interesting. Apparently farmers

>>can sue for damages that emf causes dairy cows. I guess its harder for

>>us humans to quantify economic damage. Could be a legal precedent

>>though.

>>

>>Dairy farmers win $1.1 million against utility

>>

>>The Baumgardners of Skagit Valley had been mystified for years about

>>what was making their cows sick and milk production drop. They traced

>>it to stray voltage infiltrating their barn, and they want more

>>farmers made aware of the issue.

>>

>>Full story:

>>http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display\

?slug=dairy18m & date=20061018

>>

>

> Vinny Pinto

> vinny@...

>

> phone 301-694-1249

>

> To see my informational websites and e-mail list groups, please go to:

> http://www.vinnypinto.us

>

October 19, 2006

> Rather, livestock " stray voltage " problems such

> as the one described in the article involve actual electrical

> currents

I did find it interesting that they refered to the cows

as " electricity-sensitive " :

" stray voltage from a Puget Sound Energy power line

was electrifying parts of his barn, delivering tiny

shocks to the electricity-sensitive cows. "

Marc

October 19, 2006

I agree it is vague. I'm not sure what the technical definition for

" stray voltage " is. Or what was used as a " Voltage Meter " . My guess

is if you walked around various residential areas with the same

" equipment " you would have similar findings.

I know an apartment I was looking at had very high ELF readings. I did

not do further investigation but my guess is there was very poor

wiring, grounding and thus " leakage " .

So I would say the story was more " vague " than " misleading " .

Actually my key point is that these folks were able to

1) show economic harm

2) somehow give evidence of the source (not sure how strong this was)

3) and get a legal finding in there favor

If any one is willing to define the what the terms in the article mean

scientifically that would be very helpful.

I just find the terms " voltage " , " leakage " etc vague. Even though

voltage should mean one thing.

My 2 cents.

Thanks, Alan

> >I thought you might find this article interesting. Apparently farmers

> >can sue for damages that emf causes dairy cows. I guess its harder for

> >us humans to quantify economic damage. Could be a legal precedent

> >though.

> >

> >Dairy farmers win $1.1 million against utility

> >

> >The Baumgardners of Skagit Valley had been mystified for years about

> >what was making their cows sick and milk production drop. They traced

> >it to stray voltage infiltrating their barn, and they want more

> >farmers made aware of the issue.

> >

> >Full story:

>

>http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?\

slug=dairy18m & date=20061018

> >

>

> Vinny Pinto

> vinny@...

>

> phone 301-694-1249

>

> To see my informational websites and e-mail list groups, please go to:

> http://www.vinnypinto.us

>

October 20, 2006

Hello Alan,

stray voltage is very common.

In the USA 70 % of the *null-leader* goes back to the powerplant just

through the ground.

It is also known with electrical railways, where the phase is coming through

the wires overhead the locomotive, but the *null-leader* goes back through

the rails.

When the rails are not properly grounded, these stray currents pass through

the ground via cables, pipes, etc into the houses.

Greetings,

Claessens

member Verband Baubiologie

www.milieuziektes.nl

www.milieuziektes.be

www.hetbitje.nl

checked by Norton Antivirus

Re: Dairy cows and emf effects

>I agree it is vague. I'm not sure what the technical definition for

> " stray voltage " is. Or what was used as a " Voltage Meter " . My guess

> is if you walked around various residential areas with the same

> " equipment " you would have similar findings.

>

> I know an apartment I was looking at had very high ELF readings. I did

> not do further investigation but my guess is there was very poor

> wiring, grounding and thus " leakage " .

>

> So I would say the story was more " vague " than " misleading " .

>

> Actually my key point is that these folks were able to

>

> 1) show economic harm

> 2) somehow give evidence of the source (not sure how strong this was)

> 3) and get a legal finding in there favor

>

> If any one is willing to define the what the terms in the article mean

> scientifically that would be very helpful.

>

> I just find the terms " voltage " , " leakage " etc vague. Even though

> voltage should mean one thing.

>

> My 2 cents.

>

> Thanks, Alan

>

>> >I thought you might find this article interesting. Apparently farmers

>> >can sue for damages that emf causes dairy cows. I guess its harder for

>> >us humans to quantify economic damage. Could be a legal precedent

>> >though.

>> >

>> >Dairy farmers win $1.1 million against utility

>> >

>> >The Baumgardners of Skagit Valley had been mystified for years about

>> >what was making their cows sick and milk production drop. They traced

>> >it to stray voltage infiltrating their barn, and they want more

>> >farmers made aware of the issue.

>> >

>> >Full story:

>>

>>http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display\

?slug=dairy18m & date=20061018

>> >

>>

>> Vinny Pinto

>> vinny@...

>>

>> phone 301-694-1249

>>

>> To see my informational websites and e-mail list groups, please go to:

>> http://www.vinnypinto.us

>>

>

October 20, 2006

Hi Alan:

Well, let me stress here again, since it seems that some folks may

still be thinking -- when they hear the term " stray voltage " -- of

EMF fields or E-fields in the air (i.e., free space), that the

concept of " stray voltage " refers specifically to small currents,

usually 60 Hz AC currents from the power grid (often current which

should have been carried back to the power station via the neutral

wire or ground wire in the power grid), running through the soil in

order to return to the nearest grounded node in that sector of the

power grid. If you wish to do a good Google search, there are a

number of websites which outline methods commonly used for detecting

" stray voltage " in the field, particularly in ag settings.

One common method is to employ a digital voltmeter (DVM) with a high

impedance input, set to an AC voltage scale which reads from perhaps

0.01 to 2 volts, and then do any of the following (using some long

alligator clip leads as needed to span the distance):

* measure voltage from a metal fencepost or other type of metal

post to another object at least 3 feet away.

* stick copper rods or nails about 6 inches long into the soil at

least 5 feet apart, and monitor voltage across them

However, such measurements can be very tricky, and are fraught with

false readings, and, even under best conditions, the wires (to the

meter) must be left lying flat on the soil during measurements. If

the DVM is too sensitive, the wires running across the surface of the

soil may act as antennas and pick up AC or RF signals (EMF or E-field

or H-field) from the ambient airspace, and, via induction (or even

capacitive coupling, if the two probes are not firmly " grounded " ...),

may incude false and misleading readings.

And, there are other red herrings which can confuse the casual

observer as well, since it has been well-known for many hundreds of

years that the earth itself often generates sizeable DC electric

currents which flow from point to point through the soils and strata

at the earth's surface (these have sometimes been called " earth

currents " or " telluric currrents " , and the earth itself can even

generate low-frequency AC currents in the ELF, VLF, and even LF

region; the AC and DC currents are due largely to geophysical

phenomena (including soil and rock electrochemistry, activity of

oxidizing or reducing microbes (i.e., " redox activity " ) in the

aquifer or " water table, " and piezoelectric activity of large masses

of stressed rock.

with care,

--Vinny

At 01:47 AM 10/20/2006, you wrote:

>I agree it is vague. I'm not sure what the technical definition for

> " stray voltage " is. Or what was used as a " Voltage Meter " . My guess

>is if you walked around various residential areas with the same

> " equipment " you would have similar findings.

>

>I know an apartment I was looking at had very high ELF readings. I did

>not do further investigation but my guess is there was very poor

>wiring, grounding and thus " leakage " .

>

>So I would say the story was more " vague " than " misleading " .

>

>Actually my key point is that these folks were able to

>

>1) show economic harm

>2) somehow give evidence of the source (not sure how strong this was)

>3) and get a legal finding in there favor

>

>If any one is willing to define the what the terms in the article mean

>scientifically that would be very helpful.

>

>I just find the terms " voltage " , " leakage " etc vague. Even though

>voltage should mean one thing.

>

>My 2 cents.

>

>Thanks, Alan

>

> > >I thought you might find this article interesting. Apparently farmers

> > >can sue for damages that emf causes dairy cows. I guess its harder for

> > >us humans to quantify economic damage. Could be a legal precedent

> > >though.

> > >

> > >Dairy farmers win $1.1 million against utility

> > >

> > >The Baumgardners of Skagit Valley had been mystified for years about

> > >what was making their cows sick and milk production drop. They traced

> > >it to stray voltage infiltrating their barn, and they want more

> > >farmers made aware of the issue.

> > >

> > >Full story:

> >

> >http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vor

> tex/display?slug=dairy18m & date=20061018

> >

Vinny Pinto

vinny@...

phone 301-694-1249

To see my informational websites and e-mail list groups, please go to:

http://www.vinnypinto.us

October 20, 2006

Vinny,

Thanks for the information. As always I'm learning more and more

about this. This is very helpful.

Thanks, alan

> > > >I thought you might find this article interesting. Apparently

farmers

> > > >can sue for damages that emf causes dairy cows. I guess its

harder for

> > > >us humans to quantify economic damage. Could be a legal precedent

> > > >though.

> > > >

> > > >Dairy farmers win $1.1 million against utility

> > > >

> > > >The Baumgardners of Skagit Valley had been mystified for years

about

> > > >what was making their cows sick and milk production drop. They

traced

> > > >it to stray voltage infiltrating their barn, and they want more

> > > >farmers made aware of the issue.

> > > >

> > > >Full story:

> > >

> > >http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vor

> > tex/display?slug=dairy18m & date=20061018

> > >

>

> Vinny Pinto

> vinny@...

>

> phone 301-694-1249

>

> To see my informational websites and e-mail list groups, please go to:

> http://www.vinnypinto.us

>

November 15, 2006

" Stray voltage " is a term concocted by the electric utility companies

and the Public Service Commissions in the American midwest. To cover their

legal butts.

Electricity does not stray!

Current is on the ground because the utilities are using the ground to

return most of the current to their substations.

They took great care to define " stray voltage " as being " steady state. "

In other words, just 60 Hz. Where can anybody find current that is pure

60 Hz these days?

Also, they define " stray voltage " as only affecting animals. Thus,

even if the same thing harming his cattle destroys the farmer's health, he has

no case, because " stray voltage " does not affect people - by definition.

It is all crooked politics. It is rare indeed for a dairy farmer to

be able to win a case. And rarer yet to every collect any of the money!

So far, no lawyer has been found to take a human injury case to court.

Several times a lawyer began to prepare such a case, but each time suddenly

the lawyer was doing some kind of work for the utility company instead.

They pay really well.

Bitterly,

Shivani

www.LifeEnergies.com (Where you can read more about all the above.)

November 16, 2006

Actually, it must be admitted that the term " stray voltage " is over 100

years old (certainly in the UK). It was found that with the first

electrified London Underground lines, the voltage/current returning through

the ground affected buildings, pipes and businesses (even in those days!)

and they had to put in an extra rail to act as an earth return. This was

not required on main lines outside London, which returned current through

the earth (and still do). However, these are dc voltages. Most electrified

railways nowadays are ac but have earth return.

All the same, if farmers' cows stray, they can be liable for any damage

caused (again, at least in the UK) so maybe stray voltage isn't such a bad

term after all!

Ian

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of

SArjuna@...

Sent: 16 November 2006 03:21

Subject: Re: Dairy cows and emf effects

" Stray voltage " is a term concocted by the electric utility companies

and the Public Service Commissions in the American midwest. To cover their

legal butts.

Electricity does not stray!

Current is on the ground because the utilities are using the ground to

return most of the current to their substations.

They took great care to define " stray voltage " as being " steady state. "

In other words, just 60 Hz. Where can anybody find current that is pure

60 Hz these days?

Also, they define " stray voltage " as only affecting animals. Thus,

even if the same thing harming his cattle destroys the farmer's health, he

has

no case, because " stray voltage " does not affect people - by definition.

It is all crooked politics. It is rare indeed for a dairy farmer to

be able to win a case. And rarer yet to every collect any of the money!

So far, no lawyer has been found to take a human injury case to court.

Several times a lawyer began to prepare such a case, but each time suddenly

the lawyer was doing some kind of work for the utility company instead.

They pay really well.

Bitterly,

Shivani

www.LifeEnergies.com (Where you can read more about all the above.)

November 17, 2006

Ian wrote:

Actually, it must be admitted that the term " stray voltage " is over 100

years old (certainly in the UK). It was found that with the first

electrified London Underground lines, the voltage/current returning through

the ground affected buildings, pipes and businesses (even in those days!)

and they had to put in an extra rail to act as an earth return.

Shivani replies:

The corect technical term is " ground current. "

Ian wrote:

All the same, if farmers' cows stray, they can be liable for any damage

caused (again, at least in the UK) so maybe stray voltage isn't such a bad

term after all!

Shivani replies:

Cows stray. Dogs and cats stray. Electrical current does not.

November 18, 2006

Hi Shivani and folks:

I noted with interest that you recently wrote the following in your

reply to another poster on this list group:

>Shivani replies:

> The corect technical term is " ground current. "

>Shivani replies:

> Cows stray. Dogs and cats stray. Electrical current does not.

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion and beliefs, and I

have no desire to convert you to my opinion(s), but, since you have

raised this issue about stray voltage repeatedly, I choose to share

briefly my observations and opinions as an electrical/electronics

engineer and scientist:

On " Ground Current "

First, while one correct term for the phenomena would indeed be

" ground current " , we must understand that the term ground current is

very broad umbrella term, and it includes all kinds of DC and AC (at

any of many frequencies ranging from ULF to UHF frequencies) currents

flowing in the ground from both natural (i.e., from geological,

geophysical, geobiological and planetary atmospheric sources; some of

these natural electrical current flows have been called " telluric

currents " by some authors) and also manmade sources. So, it is kind

of like saying that a Toyota Corolla is an " automotive vehicle " --

yes, it is, but, more specifically, it is a car or an automobile, and

more specifically, a Toyota brand car, and even more specifically a

Toyota Corolla. And, to me, this term " ground current " is just one of

several correct terms used at times to denote such phenomena, but it

is a very broad umbrella term, and, when using it, one would usually

need to specify further what type or species of ground current to

which they were referring.

On " Stray Voltage "

I disagree that electromotive potential (often called " voltage " by

laypersons) and current do not stray. My experience, after having

worked closely for much of the past fifty years with various types

and forms of electricity ranging from DC through ULF, ELF, VLF and on

up to UHF and beyond -- including various types of ground currents

of both natural and manmade origin -- is that electric potential and

current can each easily " stray " , and for many reasons. Any

electronics engineer who designs circuitry knows that currents will

find the darndest and most unexpected paths to return to " home " , and

both electromotive potential and electrical currents in one place can

induce other EM potentials or currents even at a modest distance in

another place. For one great but extreme example of stray current in

nature, consider lightning as it finds its path through the air and

particularly as it nears the ground -- it zigazgs wildly, and often

the current path, as it nears the ground, breaks off into dozens or

hundreds of unpredictable fractal geometries. Another example is

corrosion caused to buried metal pipes and parts due to

naturally-occurring DC and ULF currents. Further, as any ship

designer or shipyard worker knows, there are even plenty of natural

" stray currents " which occur in the oceans and which cause corrosion

of below-water metal components (such as metal hulls) of ships; and

these natural " stray " currents existed in the seas for many millions

of years before humans ever appeared on earth. So, to me, the terms

" stray voltage " , or more accurately, the two mutually-complementary

terms " stray electromotive potential " and " stray current " are quite

valid descriptors -- albeit rather broadband and generalist

designators -- of real and valid phenomena.

It is also worthwhile to note, much as I have noted above for the

term " ground current " , that the terms " stray voltage " , " stray

electromotive potential " and " stray current " are all broad terms, and

can actually describe a wide range of natural and manmade phenomena.

A Few Words About the Terms

I understand that much of your fire and ire about the widespread

usage in the popular vernacular of the term " stray voltage " stems

from the fact that you believe that the widespread usage of term for

leakage current from AC power distribution systems can somehow

contribute to allowing utility companies to " wriggle out " of

responsibility for significant harm caused by AC power distribution

system ground return currents which should better be returning via

the neutral wire or the ground wire. However, I suspect that any

immunity that many utility vendors may seem to enjoy from liability

for damage from such currents is due far more to their vast legal

funds and large teams of litigation attorneys than to the usage of

the term " stray voltage " , which has been in the popular venacular for

over a hundred years.

Lastly, I must note as an observer that many of your writings about

this topic and the topics of EMF effects upon humans and animals seem

to be tinged with quite a bit of stridency, anger and bitterness

(indeed, you have actually used the term " bitter " at times in your

posts to the list group.) It is my observation that those phenomena

in the outside world which we continue to hate, or blame, or feel

bitter about, in other words, those things against which we rail and

struggle and which we resist, tend to propagate and expand even more

in our lives as time passes, due largely to our own resistance, as we

end up becoming co-creators of those things which we resist. Thus, it

may be understandable that such EMF-related phenoma appear to

continue to cause you grief and strife in your life.

with care,

--Vinny

At 11:09 AM 11/17/2006, you wrote:

>Ian wrote:

>

> Actually, it must be admitted that the term " stray voltage " is over 100

>years old (certainly in the UK). It was found that with the first

>electrified London Underground lines, the voltage/current returning through

>the ground affected buildings, pipes and businesses (even in those days!)

>and they had to put in an extra rail to act as an earth return.

>

>Shivani replies:

> The corect technical term is " ground current. "

>

>Ian wrote:

>All the same, if farmers' cows stray, they can be liable for any damage

>caused (again, at least in the UK) so maybe stray voltage isn't such a bad

>term after all!

>

>Shivani replies:

> Cows stray. Dogs and cats stray. Electrical current does not.

>

Vinny Pinto

vinny@...

phone 301-694-1249

To see my informational websites and e-mail list groups, please go to:

http://www.vinnypinto.us

November 19, 2006

Shivani replies:

The corect technical term is " ground current. "

Let's be precise; one currently used and acceptable technical term is ground

current. Another term describing similar phenomena, in use before any of us

was born, is stray voltage. Both terms have " loose " or " vernacular "

descriptions, and also one (or more) " precise " technical definitions - since

unfortunately in many areas, definitions vary between disciplines and

countries. However, " stray voltage " is not a term recently coined by US

Midwest utilities, unless they are capable of working at more than the speed

of light and putting it into books published 40/70 years ago :-)

Ian

_____

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of

SArjuna@...

Sent: 17 November 2006 16:10

Subject: Re: Dairy cows and emf effects

Ian wrote:

Actually, it must be admitted that the term " stray voltage " is over 100

years old (certainly in the UK). It was found that with the first

electrified London Underground lines, the voltage/current returning through

the ground affected buildings, pipes and businesses (even in those days!)

and they had to put in an extra rail to act as an earth return.

Shivani replies:

The corect technical term is " ground current. "

Ian wrote:

All the same, if farmers' cows stray, they can be liable for any damage

caused (again, at least in the UK) so maybe stray voltage isn't such a bad

term after all!

Shivani replies:

Cows stray. Dogs and cats stray. Electrical current does not.

November 20, 2006

Vinny wrote: