Guest guest Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Hi , I would disagree with you about it not being preferable to have a high lauric acid. When the oil is produced the most natural way, the no heat process, the oil usually has a higher lauric acid content. It is usually the case,that heated oils have the lower lauric acid content. I think it is therefore fair to conclude that the VCO , in its most natural state, is the oil with the higher lauric acid content. Your argument that there needs to be a natural balance of the fatty acids is obviously correct, but surely this happens best when the oil is produced naturally, and naturally produced oil usually has a higher lauric acid content. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Steve, I disagree with you on this one. Coconut oil is stable under heat and its lauric acid content is not affected by it. Lauric content is dependent on the variety of nut and not on the extraction process. Rico Mel and the team <cocovida_vco@...> wrote: Hi , I would disagree with you about it not being preferable to have a high lauric acid. When the oil is produced the most natural way, the no heat process, the oil usually has a higher lauric acid content. It is usually the case,that heated oils have the lower lauric acid content. I think it is therefore fair to conclude that the VCO , in its most natural state, is the oil with the higher lauric acid content. Your argument that there needs to be a natural balance of the fatty acids is obviously correct, but surely this happens best when the oil is produced naturally, and naturally produced oil usually has a higher lauric acid content. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Hi Rico, If that is the case, why do so many of the companies producing ANH oil all have a problem getting their Philippine Bureau of Food and Drugs registration, because their oil has a lauric acid content ABOVE the Philippine National Standard. This certainly does not appear to be the case with producers using heat. In fact at a recent ANH meeting, there was a discussion about how to reduce the lauric acid content of the oil. It was decided this was not an option, as it seemed totally pointless trying to lessen the quality of the oil that had been nurtured through the production process. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this oil is produced in the most natural way and invariably the lauric acid content is above 53%. These companies are not all using nuts from the same supplier or even the same region, the one thing they have in common , is that they use the same production method. If I am wrong, I apologise, but when looking at the lauric acid content displayed by companies producing VCO using heat, ( and you have to assume they are displaying the correct results), the lauric acid content is almost always substantially lower. If we accept that it is ONLY the quality of the nuts that determine the lauric acid content of the oil, then it would seem absolutely amazing that cold-process producers are the only manufacturers making a concious effort to source the finest nuts...... I will go along with that if you will. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 My good friend Steve & Rico, This forum has been the venue for lauric acid discussions and and then pros & cons of high lauric acid content. We are all aware that the higher the lauric acid content of coconut oil, the better that oil is. While I agree that the stability of coconut oil does not permit the dissipation of some fatty acids in heat(?), any fatty acid within the short and medium chain group, because of its innate structure, (short & medium chain) becomes susceptible to high temperatures especially in the refining, bleaching and deodorizing process. Lauric acid, being the last of the fatty acid in the medium chain group, becomes the least susceptible to heat exposure but is not necessarily not affected by high tempereatures. Now, let us go to VCO. Traditional (cooking of coconut milk) process or the micro-expelling process (cooking or drying of coconut meat prior to pressing) or any process that utilizes heat (heat defined as any temperature above the human body temperature) to produce coconut oil, does not discriminate on the quality of coconuts being used. Since the introduction of heat evaporates the water content of the emulsion (coconut milk) in varying amounts depending on the temperature applied, even young coconuts, with lesser oil and with less than the full quantity of the different fatty acids, are used in this process. The objective of various technologies is to extract the oil from the fresh coconut. Even the PNS states that VCO comes from the " ...fresh, mature kernel of the coconut... " . Thus, processes that may use coconuts at 10.5 months to 11.5 months do not succeed in producing oil with the full benefit of a high lauric acid content. They just succeed in producing oil, period. The ANH process haqrdly experiences this because this process relies heavily on the maturity of the coconuts, (12-13.5 months old or those whose haustorium ar no more than 1.5 cm in diameter) that theu use. This being the case, VCOs extracted under the ANH technology register very high lauric acid contents. We even have a producer in Lipa whose lab test showed lauric acid registry of 58.9%. Coconuts younger than the required maturity will not yield the desired oil under the ANH process. There is nothing wrong with high lauric acids. In fact producers of other sources of seeds from which they extract oil have been into genetic modification of the plants to increase the lauric acid contents of their seeds. Coconut oil is lauric oil and as such is being used for its high lauric acid content which when ingested is synthesized by the body into a monoglyceride called monolaurin. It is in this form where it becomes a deadly combatant for the harmful lipid coated microorganisms in our body. That aspect of the PNS ( range of fatty acid values) is undergoing evaluation for revision or amendment. The oversight has been pointed out to BFAD and this they have agreed to and it is for this reason that ANH processors now have their respective licenses to operate and CPRs. Jun Mamangun Rico <blexdt@...> wrote: Steve, I disagree with you on this one. Coconut oil is stable under heat and its lauric acid content is not affected by it. Lauric content is dependent on the variety of nut and not on the extraction process. Rico Mel and the team <cocovida_vco@...> wrote: Hi , I would disagree with you about it not being preferable to have a high lauric acid. When the oil is produced the most natural way, the no heat process, the oil usually has a higher lauric acid content. It is usually the case,that heated oils have the lower lauric acid content. I think it is therefore fair to conclude that the VCO , in its most natural state, is the oil with the higher lauric acid content. Your argument that there needs to be a natural balance of the fatty acids is obviously correct, but surely this happens best when the oil is produced naturally, and naturally produced oil usually has a higher lauric acid content. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Hi Jun, I doubt anybody could have put it better than that. Many thanks, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Hi Jun, I sincerely doubt that anybody could have explained it better. Take care, Steve P.S. I was convinced I posted this 2 hours ago. If it appears twice, so much the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Hi Steve, My reference is the book " Coconut Aqueous Processing " by Hagenmaier whose study was done in here in Cebu in the 70's. He wrote a line based from other researchers. " Unfortunately, no thorough chemical analysis has been made. The fatty acid components are expected to be normal, since these are rather insensitive to the way coconut oil is prepared (Banzon and Resurreccion, 1979). " Presumably, Banson and Resurreccion did more research on the fatty acid compositon but i dont have their book. Has there been a case wherein producers using ANH method and producers using heat get their nuts from the same supplier but have different lauric acid content in the oil? Rico Mel and the team <cocovida_vco@...> wrote: Hi Rico, If that is the case, why do so many of the companies producing ANH oil all have a problem getting their Philippine Bureau of Food and Drugs registration, because their oil has a lauric acid content ABOVE the Philippine National Standard. This certainly does not appear to be the case with producers using heat. In fact at a recent ANH meeting, there was a discussion about how to reduce the lauric acid content of the oil. It was decided this was not an option, as it seemed totally pointless trying to lessen the quality of the oil that had been nurtured through the production process. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this oil is produced in the most natural way and invariably the lauric acid content is above 53%. These companies are not all using nuts from the same supplier or even the same region, the one thing they have in common , is that they use the same production method. If I am wrong, I apologise, but when looking at the lauric acid content displayed by companies producing VCO using heat, ( and you have to assume they are displaying the correct results), the lauric acid content is almost always substantially lower. If we accept that it is ONLY the quality of the nuts that determine the lauric acid content of the oil, then it would seem absolutely amazing that cold-process producers are the only manufacturers making a concious effort to source the finest nuts...... I will go along with that if you will. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Hello Jun, I am not against high lauric acid content as long as it is from natural or hybrid variety nuts. I just reacted to what Steve has said about lauric acid being lower in heated VCOs. I did came across an article regarding genetic modification of nuts to increase lauric acid content to 60%. This project is done in UP los banos. I hope they will not continue with this project. I also hope the VCO organization is against this. Altering nature is never a good practise. I also read in AIDSmeds forum that taking just Lauricidin, which is lauric acid in high concentration and still very natural, is not as good as taking VCO. VCO has synergistic effect on aids patients. Lauric acid is not the only beneficial fatty acid in coconut oil. I hope increasing lauric acid will not decrease other beneficial fatty acids. Here is the conclusion of the study on HIV put out by DOH. (http://www.doh.gov.ph/sars/coconut_oil.htm) Conclusion from the Study This initial trial confirmed the anecdotal reports that coconut oil does have an anti-viral effect and can beneficially reduce the viral load of HIV patients. The positive anti-viral action was seen not only with the monoglyceride of lauric acid but with coconut oil itself. This indicates that coconut oil is metabolized to monoglyceride forms of C-8, C-IO, C- 12 to which it must owe its anti-pathogenic activity. More and longer therapies using monolaurin will have to be designed and done before the definitive role of such coco products can be determined. With such products, the outlook for more efficacious and cheaper anti HIV therapy is improved. Anti-pathogen Mechanism of Monotriglycerides of MCT The fact dlat monolaurin's activity is limited to lipid coated organisms (gram positive bacteria, enveloped viruses) suggests strongly that the relatively short C-12, C-IO or C-8 [icelandic scientists have recently reported on the effectiveness of monocaprin (C-IO) against HIV virus] probably exert their action on the lipid-layered coat or plasma membrane to destabilize it or even to cause its rupture. If this mechanism proves correct, monolaurin (and monocaprin and monocapryliu) could be bactericidal and could act synergistically with the present anti-HIV agents (the antiretrovirals and protease inhibitors). Reprise With all the opprobrium cast against it, it bears repeating again and again that no evidence has ever been presented to prove that coconut oil causes coronary heart disease in humans. All the evidences presented have been in various species of animals who were given coconut oil alone without the necessary dose of essential fats or PUFA that should be given, just like the essential vitamins and minerals. On the contrary, the human epidemiologic evidence proves that coconut oil is safe. Coconut eating peoples like the Polynesians (Table V) and Filipinos (Fig. I) have low cholesterol, on the average, and very low incidence of heart disease. I agree with you that coconut oil is susceptible to high heat in the RBD process but we are talking of low heat when it comes to VCO. Although i also do not use heat (not even low heat) in extracting my oil, i dont believe heating it lightly would lessen the lauric content. From what you have pointed out, it is the maturity of the nut that affect lauric acid content and not the low heat applied during processing. I did get some feedbacks from customers that they experience more benefits from my oil than those sold in the supermarkets. There must be something else in the oil that was removed by heat. VCO in supermarkets are heated because of the strong aroma. More study should be done between ANH and heated VCOs to determine their differences. Rico > > Hi , > > I would disagree with you about it not being preferable to have a > high lauric acid. > > When the oil is produced the most natural way, the no heat process, the > oil usually has a higher lauric acid content. It is usually the > case,that heated oils have the lower lauric acid content. I think it is > therefore fair to conclude that the VCO , in its most natural state, is > the oil with the higher lauric acid content. > > Your argument that there needs to be a natural balance of the fatty > acids is obviously correct, but surely this happens best when the oil > is produced naturally, and naturally produced oil usually has a higher > lauric acid content. > > Steve > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Hi Rico, It seems we are in agreement. The best VCO is produced in the most natural way, from the kernel of fresh mature coconuts. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Hi again Rico, Sorry, I missed your post about reference books and studies done on the same variety of nuts processed in different ways. It would be very easy for me to refer you to different books. However, I am sure this discussion is beginning to bore people to tears. Let's just finish on the point we agree on. The finest VCO is produced the most natural way, from fresh mature coconuts. It seems that is the way you produce your oil as well, and I am certain that is why your customers are so happy with your oil. Regards, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Hi Rico, Here is another post that I have sent before. For some reason they seem to appear after I send another one. ( Two for the price of one. ) If we both start quoting different reference books this thread will drag on forever. You use the cold-process method to produce your oil, so do we. Your customers are absolutely delighted with the quality of your oil, and compare it very favourably with the VCO in the stores. We are fairly certain Cocovida customers are equally impressed with our oil. As I have said before, almost ad nauseam, the best VCO is naturally processed from fresh mature coconuts. Regards, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Hi Steve, Yes, the best VCO is produced naturally from the fresh coconut meat and without using heat to remove moisture. Though heating it lightly will not affect the lauric acid, it affects the aroma, taste and probably its efficacy. Ive read that you got your process from Jun and Tess. They have a good process and im sure you guys have the best oil too. Regards, Rico Mel and the team <cocovida_vco@...> wrote: Hi Rico, Here is another post that I have sent before. For some reason they seem to appear after I send another one. ( Two for the price of one. ) If we both start quoting different reference books this thread will drag on forever. You use the cold-process method to produce your oil, so do we. Your customers are absolutely delighted with the quality of your oil, and compare it very favourably with the VCO in the stores. We are fairly certain Cocovida customers are equally impressed with our oil. As I have said before, almost ad nauseam, the best VCO is naturally processed from fresh mature coconuts. Regards, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Dear Rico, Kudos to your belief in the ANH process and the numerous satisfied users of your oil. At low heat the natural tocopherol content of the oil which is supposed to act as a preservative of the oil because of its anti-oxidant characteristic starts to dissipate. At temperatures starting at 55 degrees this usually ignored oil component start to vaporize. It can only be found in virgin coconut oil. While the amount is so miniscule that many tend to marginalize this, I believe that it is the same component that has enabled a small amount of oil left from my 1983 experiments to exist until now. If we were to gauge the rancidity of that 1983 oil on a scale of 10, that may be graded at 2 based on sensory testing. There are other water soluble nutrients lost in exposure to heat, all of which otherwise make the oil natural in the real sense of the word. Carry on! Jun Mamangun blexdt <blexdt@...> wrote: Hello Jun, I am not against high lauric acid content as long as it is from natural or hybrid variety nuts. I just reacted to what Steve has said about lauric acid being lower in heated VCOs. I did came across an article regarding genetic modification of nuts to increase lauric acid content to 60%. This project is done in UP los banos. I hope they will not continue with this project. I also hope the VCO organization is against this. Altering nature is never a good practise. I also read in AIDSmeds forum that taking just Lauricidin, which is lauric acid in high concentration and still very natural, is not as good as taking VCO. VCO has synergistic effect on aids patients. Lauric acid is not the only beneficial fatty acid in coconut oil. I hope increasing lauric acid will not decrease other beneficial fatty acids. Here is the conclusion of the study on HIV put out by DOH. (http://www.doh.gov.ph/sars/coconut_oil.htm) Conclusion from the Study This initial trial confirmed the anecdotal reports that coconut oil does have an anti-viral effect and can beneficially reduce the viral load of HIV patients. The positive anti-viral action was seen not only with the monoglyceride of lauric acid but with coconut oil itself. This indicates that coconut oil is metabolized to monoglyceride forms of C-8, C-IO, C- 12 to which it must owe its anti-pathogenic activity. More and longer therapies using monolaurin will have to be designed and done before the definitive role of such coco products can be determined. With such products, the outlook for more efficacious and cheaper anti HIV therapy is improved. Anti-pathogen Mechanism of Monotriglycerides of MCT The fact dlat monolaurin's activity is limited to lipid coated organisms (gram positive bacteria, enveloped viruses) suggests strongly that the relatively short C-12, C-IO or C-8 [icelandic scientists have recently reported on the effectiveness of monocaprin (C-IO) against HIV virus] probably exert their action on the lipid-layered coat or plasma membrane to destabilize it or even to cause its rupture. If this mechanism proves correct, monolaurin (and monocaprin and monocapryliu) could be bactericidal and could act synergistically with the present anti-HIV agents (the antiretrovirals and protease inhibitors). Reprise With all the opprobrium cast against it, it bears repeating again and again that no evidence has ever been presented to prove that coconut oil causes coronary heart disease in humans. All the evidences presented have been in various species of animals who were given coconut oil alone without the necessary dose of essential fats or PUFA that should be given, just like the essential vitamins and minerals. On the contrary, the human epidemiologic evidence proves that coconut oil is safe. Coconut eating peoples like the Polynesians (Table V) and Filipinos (Fig. I) have low cholesterol, on the average, and very low incidence of heart disease. I agree with you that coconut oil is susceptible to high heat in the RBD process but we are talking of low heat when it comes to VCO. Although i also do not use heat (not even low heat) in extracting my oil, i dont believe heating it lightly would lessen the lauric content. From what you have pointed out, it is the maturity of the nut that affect lauric acid content and not the low heat applied during processing. I did get some feedbacks from customers that they experience more benefits from my oil than those sold in the supermarkets. There must be something else in the oil that was removed by heat. VCO in supermarkets are heated because of the strong aroma. More study should be done between ANH and heated VCOs to determine their differences. Rico > > Hi , > > I would disagree with you about it not being preferable to have a > high lauric acid. > > When the oil is produced the most natural way, the no heat process, the > oil usually has a higher lauric acid content. It is usually the > case,that heated oils have the lower lauric acid content. I think it is > therefore fair to conclude that the VCO , in its most natural state, is > the oil with the higher lauric acid content. > > Your argument that there needs to be a natural balance of the fatty > acids is obviously correct, but surely this happens best when the oil > is produced naturally, and naturally produced oil usually has a higher > lauric acid content. > > Steve > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Rico, So sorry, the last message was actually sent yesterday afternoon. As with one the previous day, I posted another one, and then this one reappears. I think I will take a break from posting for a few days, and let somebody else have a go. Regards, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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