Re: RBD oil

November 18, 2003

>Hello everyone! Some time ago somebody posted a long message about

>why it was wrong to use RBD oil - I wanted to reply then but didn't

>have the time. I'll do it now.

<snip>

>I really hope that due to the growing interest new techniquest for

>extracting larger amounts of the oil without using solvents so that

>the price goes down. That is my vision. But til that day don't let's

>hit on RBD. It's a lot, lot better than the alternatives.

>

>Just my 2 cents!

>Sharon the Mermaid

Some very good points, Sharon! Thanks,

jt

November 19, 2003

>

>Hello everyone! Some time ago somebody posted a long message about

>why it was wrong to use RBD oil - I wanted to reply then but didn't

>have the time. I'll do it now.

>

>OK.. it's true that solvents are used in the processing of RBD oil,

>and some slight traces are still in the oil. Yet - it's still a

>far better and healthier oil than anything on the market. That's

>because the active ingredients in RBD - the MCFA - are not destroyed

>by the processing. Come on folks - there are chemicals in so much of

>our food, even when we try to eat organic. Who among us can swear

>that we are totally chemical free? As long as the chemicals are not

>expressly ADDED to the food I think it's tolerable. And reme,mber

>that cocobuts are almost always organically grown - so they are

>peticide free to begin with, which is more than we can say of most

>of the fruit and vegetables we buy. I know that though I do

>occasionally buy organic I just couldn't afford to completely

>eradicate non-organic fruit, vegetables, fish, chicken etc from my

>family's diet. So I try to strike a balance.

>

>I really hope that due to the growing interest new techniquest for

>extracting larger amounts of the oil without using solvents so that

>the price goes down. That is my vision. But til that day don't let's

>hit on RBD. It's a lot, lot better than the alternatives.

>

>Just my 2 cents!

>Sharon the Mermaid

>

I too agree wholeheartedly about using RDB. I just can not afford a lot

of the virgin. I also have posted on other sites about RDB and got

blasted or ignored. It's nice to be able to be so snobish about what you

eat, but not everyone can be that critical. RDB is still a lot better

than corn or canola oils which is what I was eating before.

I also have some friend who are worse of money wise than I am. I have

given some of tham some RDB also along with the info about coconut oil.

One is a young mother whose DH is in prison. She is HIV+. I gave her

some this summer and the info about it's use against HIV. I do hope she

has used it. She moved so I don't see her any more.

If you have a restaurant supply store near you, you may be able to get 5

gal pails of RDB for about $30. Be sure tho that it says 76* CO. That

means it's not hydrogenated. Hydrogenated is usually 92* CO. The numbers

are the melt temps. Hydrogenating raises the melt point.

Carol

November 19, 2003

Whew! I'm glad to be getting some positive replies! I was beginning

to feel like a pariah for using RBD! yes, there's a lot of elitism

about coconut oil. Especially because on sites like Tropical

Traditions they NEVER say " coconut oil " , it's always " Virgin coconut

oil " , which makes people think ONLY the virgin works. That's just

not true. It's good marketing, but very misleading.

Almost all the clinical studies were carried out using RBD. And

notice that when the oil experts such as Ray Peat, Jon Kabara,

Enig speak of it they do not discriminate.

I used to use sunflower oil for decades, thinking it was healthy. I

can only cringe at the thought now, and I know that I'm much better

off even when using RBD. I will continue to use both.

Sharon the Mermaid

November 20, 2003

I agree with Sharon and have written the same several times.

I used RBD Popcorn oil before I found TT/

Best Regards,

Lorenzo

Feel Better, Live Longer; Adopt a Dog

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RBD oil

Hello everyone! Some time ago somebody posted a long message about

why it was wrong to use RBD oil - I wanted to reply then but didn't

have the time. I'll do it now.

OK.. it's true that solvents are used in the processing of RBD oil,

and some slight traces are still in the oil. Yet - it's still a

far better and healthier oil than anything on the market. That's

because the active ingredients in RBD - the MCFA - are not destroyed

by the processing. Come on folks - there are chemicals in so much of

our food, even when we try to eat organic. Who among us can swear

that we are totally chemical free? As long as the chemicals are not

expressly ADDED to the food I think it's tolerable. And reme,mber

that cocobuts are almost always organically grown - so they are

peticide free to begin with, which is more than we can say of most

of the fruit and vegetables we buy. I know that though I do

occasionally buy organic I just couldn't afford to completely

eradicate non-organic fruit, vegetables, fish, chicken etc from my

family's diet. So I try to strike a balance.

The fact is, much as we love virgin oil it is prohibitively

expensive. It's not normal to have to spend so much money on what

should be a staple of our diet. I am hoping that competition and new

methods of extraction will one day bring the price down but until

that day are only the affluent to enjoy all the benefots of coconut

oil?

I have a foster child and her mother is a single mom of 6 children,

living on benefits. I have turned her on to RBD oil and she loves

it. She now won't use anything else. Moreover, she is getting all

her friends to use it. Previously they all used vegetabkle oil like

corn. I think this isa fantastic development. This woman wopuild

NEVER have been able to buy virgin oil. Not in a million years. But

through word of mouth coconut oil here is now getting out to another

strata of society the virgin oil suppliers never even considered.

If we want it to become mainstream we HAVE to recognise RBD oil as

infinitely better than the common oils. We may opt to use vuirgin

for our own uses if we can afford it but if coconut oil is to go

mainstream - which I certainly hoppe it will - the only way is to

promote ALL kinds of it except the hydrogenated - yes, even RBD.

I myself am not well off and it's a great hole in my budget buying

virgin oil. In fact, the last time I bought it I actually bought a

whole box of it (from coconut connections in the UK, whicn buys from

TT) just to get it cheaper, and to help finance it - I could sell it

on to my friends!

I don't think the virgin oil sup-liers should fear RBD oil. Thew

affluent wil always want virgin, organic, what have you and pay the

price. Meanwhile, the more people use RBD bfcause that's all they

canb afford the better! I want EVERYONE to uise it! I want those

horrible vegetable oils driven from the market due to the huge

demand! I want pay-back time for the vegetable oil companies! That

can only come when consumers of ALL TYPES demand coconut oil because

they have experienced it for themselves.

It's going to be a hard battle so we shouldn't be getting snobbish

about the kind of oil we use. Everyone wil have their preference,

whether heated or expeller pressed or RBD - for me, ALL are welcome

except hydrogenated. I applaud the fact that new companies are

appearing out of the blue. All this will speed up the process of it

going meantsream. Do an internet search for coconut oil and you get

pages and pages, and almost all are positive - that's great! It

means thast when peole start copming with their objections they're

going to have a hard time finding anything negative to say - because

there is nothing.

(And BTW I found a company in the US that sells virgin oil from

Jamaica that claims it is the VERY best!)

I was horrified to find on a trip to the Caribbean that even there

all you could find in the groceries was vegetable oil This is wrong -

very wrong. Coconut oil has to go back on the grocery shelves

especially in the countries where it is produced, and for that to

happen it has to be a cheaper sort - as cheap as the vegetable oils

that have replaced it. That's the market!

I really hope that due to the growing interest new techniquest for

extracting larger amounts of the oil without using solvents so that

the price goes down. That is my vision. But til that day don't let's

hit on RBD. It's a lot, lot better than the alternatives.

Just my 2 cents!

Sharon the Mermaid

November 27, 2003

Sharon,

I agree with you about RBD oil. Though we do not sell it by choice, it is

by far healthier than most of the oils available in the US. And, you are

right, most of the coconut oil used in past research has been with RBD oil.

I did find it very interesting, however, that when Dr. Dayritt did research

with the SARS virus in the Philippines this past year he used Virgin Coconut

Oil. In his past research with AIDS he used RBD coconut oil because that

was all that was available at that time. This year he had a choice. Now

that virgin coconut oil is being produced he is using it. I believe we will

at sometime in the future see that there is a difference. Or at least we

will find out if there is any significant difference. Dr. Bruce Fife has

been doing a study this past year with metabolism as well. I believe he is

also trying to differentiate between those using virgin coconut oil and

those using RBD oil. It will be interesting to see the results.

On a fairly regular basis I talk with people who have been using an RBD oil,

such as Spectrum or Omega, and have switched over to Virgin coconut oil.

For example, a person who has a basil body temperature of 96.5 is not

uncommon. Basal body temperature should be 97.8 to 98.6. This is the

temperature you get in the morning before you arise, go to the bathroom or

anything. You take it lying in bed before you do anything. People with

under active thyroid glands always have low basal body temperatures.

I would say 96.5 is a common temperature for someone with hypothyroidism who

is looking for help. Many people I have had conversations with, who have

been using RBD oil, will tell me that they have been able to get their

temperature up to 97 or maybe 97.2. But after months of doing the 3 1/2

tablespoons of coconut oil a day they can not get it any higher. Then when

they switch over to virgin coconut oil they usually see their temperature

come on up to 98 degrees. I am sure some people can probably do this with

the RBD oil. And I am sure not everybody can do it with just coconut oil.

But there are a significant number of people that I have talked with, where

there seemed to be a difference between RBD coconut oil and virgin coconut

oil.

RBD oil can contain solvents. Dr. Enig in her book " Know Your Fats "

states that oils where solvents are used are heated to high temperatures to

" vent off " that solvent. Yet not all the solvents are vented from the final

product. Laboratory analysis will always pick up residual solvents. These

solvents are a mixture of hexane and methyl pentane, They are petroleum

solvents and carcinogenic. But then again, all or most all of the oils at

the grocery store have solvents in them. And RBD oil with solvents is

better than Soybean oil with solvents.

With the refining, bleaching and deodorizing process the oil does see some

breakdown and loss of trace nutrients. For example, the virgin coconut oils

contain close to 50% lauric acid, while the RBD oils contain 42-44% lauric

acid. In addition, the vitamin E and trace minerals are greatly diminished.

However, I agree with you. RBD coconut oil is better than most of the oils

available in the US. It is just that the virgin oils are better. I would

take RBD coconut oil over soybean oil or canola oil any day. But if I have

a choice, I will choose the more raw and unrefined oil because it is

healthier.

Dr. Enig, Dr. Kabara, and Dr. Peat are all on the front

lines. They are battling a hard battle with all the dogmatic people who

have been brain washed into thinking saturated fats cause heart disease and

unsaturated fats are good for you. The slight difference between RBD

coconut oil and virgin coconut oil pales in comparison to the problems with

the standard American diet and the types of fat millions of Americans eat on

a regular basis.

I guess, my point is that there are differences between virgin coconut oil

and RBD coconut oil. And that is reflected in price. RBD coconut oil is

very, very cheap. We could purchase a whole container load (80 barrels) for

close to the price of 2 barrels of virgin coconut oil. But I just cannot

bring myself to use it on food for my family. At least not now. Yet, I

would use it if the virgin coconut oils were not available.

Annette

Wilderness Family Naturals

Re: RBD oil

Whew! I'm glad to be getting some positive replies! I was beginning

to feel like a pariah for using RBD! yes, there's a lot of elitism

about coconut oil. Especially because on sites like Tropical

Traditions they NEVER say " coconut oil " , it's always " Virgin coconut

oil " , which makes people think ONLY the virgin works. That's just

not true. It's good marketing, but very misleading.

Almost all the clinical studies were carried out using RBD. And

notice that when the oil experts such as Ray Peat, Jon Kabara,

Enig speak of it they do not discriminate.

I used to use sunflower oil for decades, thinking it was healthy. I

can only cringe at the thought now, and I know that I'm much better

off even when using RBD. I will continue to use both.

Sharon the Mermaid

November 27, 2003

Wow Annette , these have been some very informative messages!Thanks again for

your wisdom and expertise.

IN NC

> Sharon,

>

> I agree with you about RBD oil. Though we do not sell it by choice, it is

> by far healthier than most of the oils available in the US. And, you are

> right, most of the coconut oil used in past research has been with RBD oil.

> I did find it very interesting, however, that when Dr. Dayritt did research

> with the SARS virus in the Philippines this past year he used Virgin Coconut

> Oil. In his past research with AIDS he used RBD coconut oil because that

> was all that was available at that time. This year he had a choice. Now

> that virgin coconut oil is being produced he is using it. I believe we will

> at sometime in the future see that there is a difference. Or at least we

> will find out if there is any significant difference. Dr. Bruce Fife has

> been doing a study this past year with metabolism as well. I believe he is

> also trying to differentiate between those using virgin coconut oil and

> those using RBD oil. It will be interesting to see the results.

>

> On a fairly regular basis I talk with people who have been using an RBD oil,

> such as Spectrum or Omega, and have switched over to Virgin coconut oil.

> For example, a person who has a basil body temperature of 96.5 is not

> uncommon. Basal body temperature should be 97.8 to 98.6. This is the

> temperature you get in the morning before you arise, go to the bathroom or

> anything. You take it lying in bed before you do anything. People with

> under active thyroid glands always have low basal body temperatures.

>

> I would say 96.5 is a common temperature for someone with hypothyroidism who

> is looking for help. Many people I have had conversations with, who have

> been using RBD oil, will tell me that they have been able to get their

> temperature up to 97 or maybe 97.2. But after months of doing the 3 1/2

> tablespoons of coconut oil a day they can not get it any higher. Then when

> they switch over to virgin coconut oil they usually see their temperature

> come on up to 98 degrees. I am sure some people can probably do this with

> the RBD oil. And I am sure not everybody can do it with just coconut oil.

> But there are a significant number of people that I have talked with, where

> there seemed to be a difference between RBD coconut oil and virgin coconut

> oil.

>

> RBD oil can contain solvents. Dr. Enig in her book " Know Your Fats "

> states that oils where solvents are used are heated to high temperatures to

> " vent off " that solvent. Yet not all the solvents are vented from the final

> product. Laboratory analysis will always pick up residual solvents. These

> solvents are a mixture of hexane and methyl pentane, They are petroleum

> solvents and carcinogenic. But then again, all or most all of the oils at

> the grocery store have solvents in them. And RBD oil with solvents is

> better than Soybean oil with solvents.

>

> With the refining, bleaching and deodorizing process the oil does see some

> breakdown and loss of trace nutrients. For example, the virgin coconut oils

> contain close to 50% lauric acid, while the RBD oils contain 42-44% lauric

> acid. In addition, the vitamin E and trace minerals are greatly diminished.

>

> However, I agree with you. RBD coconut oil is better than most of the oils

> available in the US. It is just that the virgin oils are better. I would

> take RBD coconut oil over soybean oil or canola oil any day. But if I have

> a choice, I will choose the more raw and unrefined oil because it is

> healthier.

>

> Dr. Enig, Dr. Kabara, and Dr. Peat are all on the front

> lines. They are battling a hard battle with all the dogmatic people who

> have been brain washed into thinking saturated fats cause heart disease and

> unsaturated fats are good for you. The slight difference between RBD

> coconut oil and virgin coconut oil pales in comparison to the problems with

> the standard American diet and the types of fat millions of Americans eat on

> a regular basis.

>

> I guess, my point is that there are differences between virgin coconut oil

> and RBD coconut oil. And that is reflected in price. RBD coconut oil is

> very, very cheap. We could purchase a whole container load (80 barrels) for

> close to the price of 2 barrels of virgin coconut oil. But I just cannot

> bring myself to use it on food for my family. At least not now. Yet, I

> would use it if the virgin coconut oils were not available.

>

> Annette

> Wilderness Family Naturals

>

> Re: RBD oil

>

> Whew! I'm glad to be getting some positive replies! I was beginning

> to feel like a pariah for using RBD! yes, there's a lot of elitism

> about coconut oil. Especially because on sites like Tropical

> Traditions they NEVER say " coconut oil " , it's always " Virgin coconut

> oil " , which makes people think ONLY the virgin works. That's just

> not true. It's good marketing, but very misleading.

>

> Almost all the clinical studies were carried out using RBD. And

> notice that when the oil experts such as Ray Peat, Jon Kabara,

> Enig speak of it they do not discriminate.

>

> I used to use sunflower oil for decades, thinking it was healthy. I

> can only cringe at the thought now, and I know that I'm much better

> off even when using RBD. I will continue to use both.

>

> Sharon the Mermaid

>

November 27, 2003

From: Annette Fischer

<snip>

On a fairly regular basis I talk with people who have been using an RBD oil,

such as Spectrum or Omega, and have switched over to Virgin coconut oil.

Hi Annete, I'd like to say thank you for your insiteful writings you have shared

in your recent letters here.

I sense a lot of integrity in them.

One small point though..., I happen to like the omega nutrition coconut oil. :

-)

Is it fair to call it RBD?

All plant oils sold could be called refined by virture of being removed from

their natural substrates.

My understanding is that the omega oil is expeller extracted from dried coconut

and steam deodorized.

When I think RBD I think chemicals and solvents. :-(

Omega's oil is certified organic, no bleaching, no chemical solvents here.

Organic coconuts too.

Peace, Bruce

November 28, 2003

Hello Bruce.

Believe me, I do believe there is a place for oils other than virgin coconut

oils. I know that a lot of people use them, and there is even variation

between one companies RBD coconut oil and another RBD coconut oil. And since

we have been talking about FFA's it might be interesting for people to know

that the FFA's will creep up on RBD oil just like it does in virgin coconut

oil. I do have a post on file from Bob Wahl burg at Omega describing the

method in which their coconut oil is produced. Unless they have changed

things in the last 2 years, what they sell is indeed RBD oil. But their RBD

oil many people say is much nicer than Spectrums RBD oil.

According to the emal from Bob their oil does come from copra. It is

organic and they do expeller press it, but it does see refining (using

caustic soda), bleaching (which is done with alkaline and acid clays) and

deodorizing (which means hot gases or steam is passed through the oil while

a vacuum pulls off the vapors). I do believe they have a good source for

their processing of the oil, but it is still coming from copra and is

stripped on some of the natural components that virgin coconut oils contain.

I would encourage you to contact Bob or someone at Omega Nutrition. I do

not know if they are as free with their information now as they use to be.

But it would be good for you to find out straight from them, rather than

hearing it from me. Even if an oil is Bleached and Deodorized this can

happen with no chemicals. The only chemical added would be during the

refining process where caustic soda or lye is added to drop out free fatty

acids. These free fatty acids occur as the coconut dries. They are products

of fatty acid/triglyceride breakdown. Because the meat dries over a period

of time it actually turns brown and rancid (oxidized). This then presses

into a crude coconut oil labeled " not fit for human consumption " . The FFA's

are quite high. So the first part of the process is dropping out the FFA's

which also takes out some of the micronutrients and natural antioxidants.

That is why the Lauric acid percentage on Omega's oil is lower than the

virgin coconut oils. Bob will probably not tell you the details exactly as

I have described them, but he will tell you about the caustic soda. When

you hear that you will know that is referring to the refining process. The

" filtering " will be the bleaching part of the process. It is called

bleaching because the brown color of the crude (oxidized) oil is taken out.

And then the steam deodorizing you mentioned is the deodorizing process.

That is what RBD stands for: refined, bleached and deodorized.

Having said all this, the big plus for oil like Omega carries is that there

is no taste. People have to get use to a mild coconut flavor if all they

have is virgin coconut oil in their home. If you like the Omega brand of

coconut oil, that is great. You are still getting many good healthy medium

chain fatty acids and using a much healthier oil than most Americans. The

only real differences between Omega's oil and a virgin coconut oil are:

1) the shelf life on the RBD coconut oils is not as long as the virgin

coconut oils because the antioxidants are significantly reduced by the

processing.

2) other nutrients have been stripped as well

3) because of the breakdown in the oil prior to pressing it out and

processing methods the resulting lauric acid content is lower than you will

find in virgin coconut oils

3) during the processing you also lose the natural flavor of the coconut

4) Omega and other RBD coconut oils are less expensive to produce and

therefore cost less to the consumer

I have been told by several people that with the Omega oil they can not get

through the summer without it going rancid on them. In their cupboards it

was warm during the summer and the heat effected the shelf life. They told

me they could keep virgin coconut oil all summer without any problems.

Besides the fact that Omega's oil is RBD this could also be caused by the

fact that it is packaged in plastic. You never get as long of storage out

of things packaged in plastic as you do with things packaged in glass. But

these are only minor differences, as long as people are aware of them then

they can make an informed decision on what is best for them. We have

considered, and continue to consider carrying an oil like Omega's. We have

not done it yet, but that doesn't not mean we never will. It is people like

you who have me rethinking this whole thing.

Thank you,

Annette

PS: I have something written up to describe the RBD process on our website.

The source is Dr. Enigs book and Udo's book and an some books I have

here from College nutrition classes. It is just a one paragraph summary,

but for anyone who wants to know more details without reading a book here is

the link:

http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/mall/virgin_coconut_oil.asp There

is also a link there to Spectrums website where you can read right off their

page the same things.

Re: Re: RBD oil

From: Annette Fischer

<snip>

On a fairly regular basis I talk with people who have been using an RBD

oil,

such as Spectrum or Omega, and have switched over to Virgin coconut oil.

Hi Annete, I'd like to say thank you for your insiteful writings you have

shared in your recent letters here.

I sense a lot of integrity in them.

One small point though..., I happen to like the omega nutrition coconut

oil. : -)

Is it fair to call it RBD?

All plant oils sold could be called refined by virture of being removed

from their natural substrates.

My understanding is that the omega oil is expeller extracted from dried

coconut and steam deodorized.

When I think RBD I think chemicals and solvents. :-(

Omega's oil is certified organic, no bleaching, no chemical solvents here.

Organic coconuts too.

Peace, Bruce

November 28, 2003

Hi Annette, thank you for your reply. : -)

I would agree the virgin wet process centrifuged oil is undoubtedly superior and

has the highest vibrational aspect and is the most natural and healthiest.

It is also very coconutty, much like something can taste too sweet to some

people, it is too coconutty for me. Also, I was able to find the omega oil for

one third the price of the virgin oil. In this case quantity won out over

quality because of the price.

Now I am left wondering what kind of oil I do have (the omega), and if it has

been mistreated :|

This is from the label of the jar I have recently purchased and am currently

using:

Naturally saturated, non - hydrogenated, our Coconut Oil is expeller pressed

without the use of solvents, additives, chemicals, or bleaching. Ingredient:

Organic, pure coconut oil.

Best Before/ July 2006

Organically grown and processed in accordance with the California Organic Foods

Act of 1990.

Hmm...

Perhaps as you say they have changed things in the last two years.

I'm hopeing this is the case.

It's hard for me to see what sort of organic standards would allow for the use

of the amendments and processes you have described, which no doubt are within

the standard for regular commercailly produced supermarket type oils.

One may wonder how flexible organic standards may be at times though too, and

there is always the issue of compliance.

Thanks for all the info.

Be well, Bruce.

P.S. I've put the coconut oil in the freezer and will move it to glass jars, I

don't like the plastic containers either, they do keep out the light though. I

wonder why no one sells coconut oil in dark glass or larger sizes in anything

but plastic containers for that matter.

anon