Re: LP doesn't mind dwarf tossing

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/8/01 1:48:58 AM, condition1@... writes:

<< But, if some dwarf wants to rent themselves out as a Rent-A-Freak, to be

beaten by folks who are into beating dwarfs, work as a tunnel-rat

specializing in searching tight places for injured people or bad guys for

the military (a real and heroic job that has been performed bravely for

decades) or grow tulips out of their butt, that is that person's right. Who

the heck am I to tell them what to do?

>>

As a achon with cervical compression, 3 discs fused and a pending lower

lumbar lamenectomy, I think that any achon, or other person with forms of

dwarfism that have common and serious spinal complications, being tossed is

just too dangerous.

Sure let's allow folks to do as they please, but when your insurance rates go

up because some moron is getting tossed (usually health coverage isn't part

of their pay) and we all have to endure increased premiums, don't complain.

When someone comes up to you in a bar and asks if you're here for the dwarf

tossing. Don't complain.

When you don't get a job because some employer sees a dwarf tossing photo on

the news and it's later conjured up in their head while interviewing you,

don't complain.

When a dwarf dies (like the drunk dwarf on Stern and the dwarf tossee

in Florida did years ago) God help else that you finally will COMPLAIN!

[Guest guest]

Tiara,

Regarding my wheelchair comment, I meant that, I use a wheelchair and I hate

seeing people using wheelchairs begging on the street. I would however fight

to the death for their right to live their lives as THEY see fit, not how I

see it.

No one is going to tell me how I should represent my disability. I won't

impose that on anyone else. I think dwarf-tossing is horrible. That's my

opinion.

But, if some dwarf wants to rent themself out as a Rent-A-Freak, to be

beaten by folks who are into beating dwarfs, work as a tunnel-rat

specializing in searching tight places for injured people or bad guys for

the military (a real and heroic job that has been performed bravely for

decades) or grow tulips out of their butt, that is that person's right. Who

the heck am I to tell them what to do?

How could any argument be made that any of us have a right to impose

ourselves on others? Hey, disagree with me, then walk away. Stick around and

try to FORCE me to change my mind - you got a fight on your hands.

I don't know the details of the proposed legislation. I would like to get my

hands on it.

Look, there's this attitude out there. An attitude that someone from 'my'

group can't behave like that, it makes us all look bad. No way! If I'm

fighting stereotypes, how come I have to fit into one propagated by my own

people? I'm my own person. Everyone is.

You a dwarf and you make a choice? Why is that different or shocking? I

thought it just came along with being human (in a free country).

Cole

btw Tiara, no heat towards you. This subject just gets me burning everytime

it comes up, and it comes up every few months ad nauseum.

----Original Message Follows----

From: Actres1127@...

condition1@...

Subject: LP doesn't mind dwarf tossing

Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:13:06 EST

Tell me what I can do with my wheeclchair and I'll tell you what you can

do

with that. This is America!

I've heard alot of people saying things like this (example: show me a

perfect

person and I'll show u God) But I dont understand quite what u meant with

the

whole wheelchair thing. Can u explain that to me so I can get what u meant?

Thanks.

-Tiara

LPS RULE

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

>

>

> As a achon with cervical compression, 3 discs fused and a pending

> lower lumbar lamenectomy, I think that any achon, or other person

> with forms of dwarfism that have common and serious spinal

> complications, being tossed is just too dangerous.

Any person with common sense would agree with this.

> Sure let's allow folks to do as they please, but when your

> insurance rates go up because some moron is getting tossed

> (usually health coverage isn't part of their pay) and we all have

> to endure increased premiums, don't complain.

While there is some merit to this, it is a given that insurance

rates rise whether or not dwarf tossing is allowed or not. This is

the nature of the insurance industry. Case in point... the insurance

lobby got seatbelt and motorcycle helmet laws passed, yet that did

nothing to stop the rise in cost of premiums for auto and motorcycle

insurance policies. So called " self protection " laws lobbied for by

the insurance companies are only used for arguments for settlement

payment forfeitures. In other words, if the person was not wearing a

seatbelt when they were killed and it was the law to wear a

seatbelt, then the insurance company could argue against a

settlement because the insured was in violation of the law. Not that

they win by this, but it is a part of their arsenal.

> When someone comes up to you in a bar and asks if you're here for

> the dwarf tossing. Don't complain.

I wouldn't complain. The same way I wouldn't complain when they ask

all the other stupid questions they ask. Having an extensive past

history when I was younger at being a bartender, believe me,

intoxicated and non-intoxicated people alike can ask a lot more

dumber things that if I want to be tossed.

> When you don't get a job because some employer sees a dwarf

> tossing photo on the news and it's later conjured up in their head

> while interviewing you, don't complain.

If I lose a bid on a job because of the above reasoning, I don't

want to work for that person anyway. They already are predisposed to

prejudice in the work place.

> When a dwarf dies (like the drunk dwarf on Stern and the

> dwarf tossee in Florida did years ago) God help else that you

finally will COMPLAIN!

I'm not sure how Hank's death ties into this. He died of acute

alcoholism. This is something that happens in all types of people,

not just dwarves. I had an uncle, non-lp, who was a life long

alcoholic. He came back here to settled down and live when he turned

old enough to receive Social Security. He got his first check, went

to the bank and cashed it, went to a tavern and got drunk, stepped

out the door and into the street, got ran over by a car and was

killed. Does this mean we should ban Social Security payments. Using

the same logic, if he hadn't got his first check, he wouldn't of had

the money to get drunk, and he wouldn't have got run over.

You see where this goes? Everything in life cannot be legislated.

Human beings are prone at times to bad judgement. But they don't

need laws to protect themselves from this bad judgement. I may do

something that results in the loss of my life or an impairment. But,

if I did it as a result of my own choosing, then I have to bear the

brunt of the circumstances.

To legislate personal freedom is to start down a path that you don't

want to be on.

Maurice

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/8/01 12:03:26 PM, mrsmith_1956@... writes:

<< I'm not sure how Hank's death ties into this. He died of acute

alcoholism. This is something that happens in all types of people,

not just dwarves. >>

GIVE US A BREAK!

He was exploited and encouraged to drink. Did you ever see his website?

Hank was used. Dwarves that are tossed are used too.

What's the point arguing with a bleeding heart?

[Guest guest]

GOD ....MR SOARES...SHUT UP!

YOU ARE SO UNINTERESTING AND NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU THINK...!!

GO BACK INTO THE HOLE YOUVE BEEN HIDING IN FOR AWHILE.....WE HAVNT MISSED

YOU!!

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> He was exploited and encouraged to drink. Did you ever see his

> website? Hank was used.

Yes, I have saw his website and have saw him on the Stern show. And

yes, he was exploited and used. However, you fail to acknowledge two

important points here. First, there is no indication that anyone

held him down and put a funnel in his mouth to start him drinking.

He chose to do so and because of this choice he suffered the

results. And secondly, unless it is by force, a person can only be

exploited or used by choice. I don't think anyone held a gun to

Hank's head and told him he was going to be exploited and used,

whether he wanted to or not. This is not to lessen the impact of the

events in his life, but I for one do not buy into the " I had no

choice... " excuse game.

> Dwarves that are tossed are used too.

Again, you are correct. They are used and exploited. But, again it

is done so at their own discretion. To physically pick someone up

and toss them against their will is assualt, there are laws to deal

with this. But, we are referring here to instances where the

participant is willing.

Let me clarify a point. I think the dwarf tossing is stupid, crude,

and somewhat dangerous, but, it is done using personal judgement.

When you start making laws against using your own personal

judgement, that means you have begun making laws allowing others to

make those judgements for you. This is not what a " peusdo-democracy "

such as ours is all about. Personal freedom is the basis of the

constitution. Or it was last time I checked anyway.

> What's the point arguing with a bleeding heart?

I am not sure if this is meant to be a political insinuation or

exactly what, but I will say upfront that I am apolitical so the

statement has very little meaning to me.

Maurice

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/8/01 9:22:00 PM, LittleLadyQT writes:

<< GOD ....MR SOARES...SHUT UP!

YOU ARE SO UNINTERESTING AND NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU THINK...!!

GO BACK INTO THE HOLE YOUVE BEEN HIDING IN FOR AWHILE.....WE HAVNT MISSED

YOU!!

Jackie >>

Ignorance like yours should be ignored.

Last I checked Ms " QT " this was America.

You're no QT

[Guest guest]

Maurice,

I have to say I agree with you on both this issue and the one concerning the

" Dumping a Man " issue... hear, hear!!

In a message dated 12/9/01 2:55:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,

mrsmith_1956@... writes:

<<

>

> Dwarf tossing is both dangerous and harmful to the individual

> involved, and also harmful to society...therefore this argument

> that those who engage in dwarftossing have a guaranteed " right " to

> participate is such an activity is bunk.

Not to keep this going but I have to ask this... Would you please

explain how " dwarf tossing " is harmful to society as a whole? Please

don't use insurance rates or moral values in your answer because

those are subjective. Be as objective as you possibly can.

Also, does the Constitution override the Declaration of

Independence. Because I recall this statement being there:

" We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created

equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain

unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the

pursuit of happiness. " - Jefferson

And it goes on to say anytime the government makes laws to deny

these " rights " , then the government is wrong and should be changed.

Where you may be confused is that " society " doesn't inact laws, the

government does. And they do it most of the time without

the " democratic " consent of the people. That is why we call it

a " republic " .

I'm won't carry this any further, but I will conclude with the words

of Pitt, the statesmen for which the city of Pittsburgh is

named, as he said, " Necessity is the plea for every infringement of

human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of

slaves. " Simply put, the government says that out of necessity they

protect me from myself. Who protects me from them?

Maurice

P.S. I know this has steered of the course of having little to do

with dwarfism, but in a sense it has a lot to do with it. It deals

with the fundamental right for a person to make choices for

themself. And not to be impeded due to gender, race, religion, or

disability. Laws of the corporate body should apply to the corporate

and not to individual segments. Are there laws against " average

sized " person tossing?

>>

[Guest guest]

I am interested in what he thinks, but I am not interested in your

rudeness and personal attacks.

Regarding the constitution, and rights and so forth...freedom " to do

what we want " is certainly not an absolute right. We have freedom of

speech but we can't run into a theatre and yell " FIRE " when there is

no fire.

When society has deemed something to be harmful to an individual, or

harmful to society itself, society has the right to enact laws to

govern that activity.

For example...seatbelts. Most states have a seatbelt law....why?

Because it is generally regarded that seatbelts save lives. If your

are pulled over and are not wearing a seatbelt...you get a ticket.

Drugs, prosititution, bareknuckled fighting, cock fighting, gambling

(in most states).....all of these are examples society has deemed

that you DO NOT have the right to engage in.

Dwarf tossing is both dangerous and harmful to the individual

involved, and also harmful to society...therefore this argument that

those who engage in dwarftossing have a guaranteed " right " to

participate is such an activity is bunk.

Dave Oliver (poking his head back into the maelstrom after a much

extended absence)

> GOD ....MR SOARES...SHUT UP!

>

> YOU ARE SO UNINTERESTING AND NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU THINK...!!

>

> GO BACK INTO THE HOLE YOUVE BEEN HIDING IN FOR AWHILE.....WE HAVNT

MISSED

> YOU!!

>

> Jackie

[Guest guest]

Supporting the constitution may or may not make this LP a bleeding heart.

Dwarf tossing may be dangerous...football is dangerous...so are most sports.

Should we ban sports because someone might get hurt? How about some of these

television series where people DO get hurt like " Survivor " (I like that show) or

the incredible race or whatever it's called. How about wrestling? Should we

ban wrestling because it exploits women? Makes them look cheap and used? I

don't hear to many people passing legislation for that because it's considered

protected under the constitution. Dwarf tossing is no different. I wouldn't do

it. If any of my friends did it I would say " whatever. "

Likewise, as far as Hank goes...he made his choices. They were HIS to make. If

anyone would have tried to interfere with his life he would have told you where

to go...and it wouldn't have been Philly. He was not totally a victim.

I may not like people attacking people personally on this list and calling them

names INSTEAD of debating the issue...maybe it's because SOME don't have that

ability. I do support their right to do so, unless character or integrity is

directly brought into question. It's all the constitution. You can't like some

of it and ignore the rest. GIVE US A BREAK!

[Guest guest]

>

> Dwarf tossing is both dangerous and harmful to the individual

> involved, and also harmful to society...therefore this argument

> that those who engage in dwarftossing have a guaranteed " right " to

> participate is such an activity is bunk.

Not to keep this going but I have to ask this... Would you please

explain how " dwarf tossing " is harmful to society as a whole? Please

don't use insurance rates or moral values in your answer because

those are subjective. Be as objective as you possibly can.

Also, does the Constitution override the Declaration of

Independence. Because I recall this statement being there:

" We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created

equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain

unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the

pursuit of happiness. " - Jefferson

And it goes on to say anytime the government makes laws to deny

these " rights " , then the government is wrong and should be changed.

Where you may be confused is that " society " doesn't inact laws, the

government does. And they do it most of the time without

the " democratic " consent of the people. That is why we call it

a " republic " .

I'm won't carry this any further, but I will conclude with the words

of Pitt, the statesmen for which the city of Pittsburgh is

named, as he said, " Necessity is the plea for every infringement of

human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of

slaves. " Simply put, the government says that out of necessity they

protect me from myself. Who protects me from them?

Maurice

P.S. I know this has steered of the course of having little to do

with dwarfism, but in a sense it has a lot to do with it. It deals

with the fundamental right for a person to make choices for

themself. And not to be impeded due to gender, race, religion, or

disability. Laws of the corporate body should apply to the corporate

and not to individual segments. Are there laws against " average

sized " person tossing?

[Guest guest]

>Also, does the Constitution override the Declaration of

>Independence. Because I recall this statement being there:

>

> " We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created

>equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain

>unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the

>pursuit of happiness. " - Jefferson

Actually, the Constitution *does* override the Declaration of

Independence. It's too bad, because the Declaration is much cooler.

===========================================================

Dan Kennedy

Internet services coordinator

Little People of America, Inc.

http://www.lpaonline.org

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/9/2001 1:55:24 PM Central Standard Time,

mrsmith_1956@... writes:

> Also, does the Constitution override the Declaration of

> Independence. Because I recall this statement being there:

>

> " We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created

> equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain

> unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the

> pursuit of happiness. " - Jefferson

>

Yes, The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land. The Declaration of

Independence was basically a letter to King and Parliament to justify

the actions of the Constitutional Convention. It cannot be used as legal

precedent; after all, the United States government didn't even exist when it

was written.

luthien