Universal Health Care

[Guest guest]

The current system is bankrupting us. We cant afford everything for everyone. For example if we assume that 1% of HTNs have PA and need AVS that would be

60,000,000 HTN x .01 x $15,000 = $9,000,000,000

When we can treat most for about $100 per year (generic VA prices for sprio) is cheaper by a long way.

How about stents in the heart that cost $25,000-50,000 and defib that cost $50,000 but dont work very well.

So someone needs to decide what we can provide to everyone to prevent stroke and MI. That would be the DASH diet and maybe not pay for health care except for those who are DASHing and still in trouble.

At least a civilized country should provide free access to BP care I would argue. Will save a lot. eg each person on dialysis (which is free to everyone) costs you and me $60,000 per year for each person. Total budget for this is now more than all of NIH budget.

Many years before dialysis was free to everyone I sat on a committee that decided who would get dialyzed as one had to be well educated, have money and have a supportive family to get on the list. I recall a colleague accusing us of playing God on the committee. My response was that if God had wanted a person to be dialyzed he (or she) would have made them educated, given them money and a supportive family. We will soon be doing this with all expensive and unproven medical procedures.

If I were in charge I would only pay for new procedures or drugs if a person enrolled in a trial to test the new Rx against the old to see if it was as good as, better than or worse than the older Rx. That way we would make much more rapid progress than we do now. Wouldne have so many rich Drs and device companies tho.

May your pressure be low!

CE Grim, BS(Chem/Math), MS(Biochem), MD.

Board Certified in Internal Medicine, Geriatrics and Hypertension

Former Epidemiologic Intelligence Services Officer (Lt. Comdr.), CDC

Specializing in Difficult to Manage High Blood Pressure

Clinical Professor of Medicine, Medical College of Wisconsin

[Guest guest]

We have universal health care-its called medicare. Would like to

know what the unaccounted cost of this care is figured as? Between

$43 and $50 Trillion dollars over the next 20 or so years. It is off

budget, because noone in congress believes it ever will be paid for.

See a book called " The Coming Generational Storm " , it makes global

warming look like a piece of cake. The point is free health care is

not free, and who is to pay for the care of the person who will not

pay for his own.

There is nothing in the constiution about free medical care, anymore

than free BMW's. If you want to find out what is the problem with

medical care is, look in the mirror. Every American wants the best

medical care possible, but wants the other guy to pay for it. If

something goes wrong-sue!

Here where I live, we have crews of Mexican workers making $10.77 per

hour on a housing tract, some are legal. Of the two dozen who have

the option of buying the provided health insurance, how many do you

think are having it deducted? Would you believe none.

You don't value what is free. Its the market that rations life's

scarce commodities. Getting rid of the market won't increase the

quantity of health care, it will only result in waiting lists and

even more crowded hospitals.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/26/06 10:48:14 PM, wbongianni@... writes:

Death comes for all of us.  Isn't it important how we lived and died,

not how long we made it on this earth? 

I agree, it does not make sense to dialyze a demented blind person but is is done every day as the Nephrologist (and the companies that make the equipment) get rich.

May your pressure be low!

CE Grim, BS(Chem/Math), MS(Biochem), MD.

Board Certified in Internal Medicine, Geriatrics and Hypertension

Former Epidemiologic Intelligence Services Officer (Lt. Comdr.), CDC

Specializing in Difficult to Manage High Blood Pressure

Clinical Professor of Medicine, Medical College of Wisconsin

[Guest guest]

now more than all of NIH budget.

>

> Many years before dialysis was free to everyone I sat on a

committee that

> decided who would get dialyzed as one had to be well educated, have

money and

> have a supportive family to get on the list. I recall a colleague

accusing us

> of playing God on the committee. My response was that if God had

wanted a

> person to be dialyzed he (or she) would have made them educated,

given them money

> and a supportive family. We will soon be doing this with all

expensive and

> unproven medical procedures.

>

Thank you for this story. I worked with a young engineer at

Aircraft in 1964. Man with a wife and child, he was given dialysis

for a year. At the end of the year they took him off and he died.

It was sad working with him, most of the time he was too feeble to do

much, and the jaundice was something apalling. Twenty years later my

dad was on it 2 and later 3 times a week. He hated each session. He

was wiped out the day after, and the day before. I remember the big

shunt under the arm. He hated the drive to the dialysis center, but

he didn't want to die. He had 5 years of personnel misery.

Don't you sometimes think that modern medicine raises expectations

too much. I recently read an article about some doctors that are

protesting drugs for diseases that really don't exist. Anxiety and

erectile disfunction, ect. One said, " Aging is natural, it isn't a

disease. "

Death comes for all of us. Isn't it important how we lived and died,

not how long we made it on this earth?

[Guest guest]

Good point. The Celtic tradition has this - it is better to burn

brightly for a few moments than to flicker dull for an hour. But if

people use their skills and develop their minds; keep learning, even an

hour can be bright and grand. Aristotle, Neruda, Chuang-Tzu and Bach

are right there for anyone who makes the effort.

;^)

Dave

On Apr 26, 2006, at 8:46 PM, wbongianni wrote:

> now more than all of NIH budget.

>>

>> Many years before dialysis was free to everyone I sat on a

> committee that

>> decided who would get dialyzed as one had to be well educated, have

> money and

>> have a supportive family to get on the list.

In the early days of apnea, in Alameda County you had to be young,

female and attractive to get a polysomnogram and CPAP. Older women and

men were dropping like files. They finally got a female pulmonologist,

or I would not be alive.

>> I recall a colleague

> accusing us

>> of playing God on the committee. My response was that if God had

> wanted a

>> person to be dialyzed he (or she) would have made them educated,

> given them money

>> and a supportive family. We will soon be doing this with all

> expensive and

>> unproven medical procedures.

>>

>

> Thank you for this story. I worked with a young engineer at

> Aircraft in 1964. Man with a wife and child, he was given dialysis

> for a year. At the end of the year they took him off and he died.

> It was sad working with him, most of the time he was too feeble to do

> much, and the jaundice was something apalling. Twenty years later my

> dad was on it 2 and later 3 times a week. He hated each session. He

> was wiped out the day after, and the day before. I remember the big

> shunt under the arm. He hated the drive to the dialysis center, but

> he didn't want to die. He had 5 years of personnel misery.

>

> Don't you sometimes think that modern medicine raises expectations

> too much. I recently read an article about some doctors that are

> protesting drugs for diseases that really don't exist. Anxiety and

> erectile disfunction, ect. One said, " Aging is natural, it isn't a

> disease. "

>

> Death comes for all of us. Isn't it important how we lived and died,

> not how long we made it on this earth?

>

[Guest guest]

And we keep terminal patients " alive " with ventilators

and PEG tubes for months or years.

> I agree, it does not make sense to dialyze a

> demented blind person but is is

> done every day as the Nephrologist (and the

> companies that make the equipment)

> get rich.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I understand that a better health care program will cost money, but it appears we come up with the money for a lot of projects.

I really do not expect President Obama to get everything he wants, but I do believe he will make things better when it comes to health care.

When I was 10 years old, my step-father was talking about England having health care. That was in 1950. There is no reason that other countries can afford it, but some say we can't. Of course you don't get much for nothing these days, so please drop President Obama an email or letter to the Whitehouse showing your support, or do you want to wait another 50 years. The vote in the house will go through, so contact your senator for better health care for the children first, then the adults. There isn't much time.

The rich want more money and the lesser want to be able to choose a doctor.

Please include any emotional problems that are breaking you.

Sincerely,

L.

Akron, Ohio 44305

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I understand that a better health care program will cost money, but it appears we come up with the money for a lot of projects.

I really do not expect President Obama to get everything he wants, but I do believe he will make things better when it comes to health care.

When I was 10 years old, my step-father was talking about England having health care. That was in 1950. There is no reason that other countries can afford it, but some say we can't. Of course you don't get much for nothing these days, so please drop President Obama an email or letter to the Whitehouse showing your support, or do you want to wait another 50 years. The vote in the house will go through, so contact your senator for better health care for the children first, then the adults. There isn't much time.

The rich want more money and the lesser want to be able to choose a doctor.

Please include any emotional problems that are breaking you.

Sincerely,

L.

Akron, Ohio 44305

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I understand that a better health care program will cost money, but it appears we come up with the money for a lot of projects.

I really do not expect President Obama to get everything he wants, but I do believe he will make things better when it comes to health care.

When I was 10 years old, my step-father was talking about England having health care. That was in 1950. There is no reason that other countries can afford it, but some say we can't. Of course you don't get much for nothing these days, so please drop President Obama an email or letter to the Whitehouse showing your support, or do you want to wait another 50 years. The vote in the house will go through, so contact your senator for better health care for the children first, then the adults. There isn't much time.

The rich want more money and the lesser want to be able to choose a doctor.

Please include any emotional problems that are breaking you.

Sincerely,

L.

Akron, Ohio 44305

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I understand that a better health care program will cost money, but it appears we come up with the money for a lot of projects.

I really do not expect President Obama to get everything he wants, but I do believe he will make things better when it comes to health care.

When I was 10 years old, my step-father was talking about England having health care. That was in 1950. There is no reason that other countries can afford it, but some say we can't. Of course you don't get much for nothing these days, so please drop President Obama an email or letter to the Whitehouse showing your support, or do you want to wait another 50 years. The vote in the house will go through, so contact your senator for better health care for the children first, then the adults. There isn't much time.

The rich want more money and the lesser want to be able to choose a doctor.

Please include any emotional problems that are breaking you.

Sincerely,

L.

Akron, Ohio 44305