Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 With our very compromised immume systems, I would suggest we all take many more precautions, and see our physicians regarding what we might do to protect ourselves! Blessings, Martha M NSIF ----- Original Message ----- From: MARTHA-NSIF arden r moulin, whcnp Cc: Lawrence Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:29 AM Subject: anthrax & smallpox Anthrax and Smallpox 101 S. Kendler, MDIn the days since the September 11 terrorist attacks, countless worried patients have called to ask their doctors about protecting themselves from possible follow up attacks with biological weapons. Many hope to take vaccines for smallpox and anthrax. One doctor was upset to learn that a patient could not fill a prescription for an antibiotic commonly used to treat a wide range of illnesses. The local pharmacy had run out because the antibiotic is also used to treat anthrax. Some advice from the doctorDo not make an appointment to see your doctor for smallpox and anthrax vaccines-they are not available to civilians at this time. Your health would be better served by receiving the influenza vaccine, since there will certainly be cases of the flu this fall and winter. And hoarding antibiotics for anthrax will only have the effect of depleting the supply for patients who need them for more immediate reasons. Since most patients have voiced concern about anthrax and smallpox, below are some details about those two diseases. What is anthrax?Anthrax is a disease caused by Bacillus anthracis, a bacterium that has the ability to produce spores. These spores are similar to plant seeds in that they can survive in a dormant form for many years and can produce living bacteria when conditions are suitable, as when they come into contact with an animal or human. In certain parts of the world, herbivores or plant-eating animals such as sheep and goats can become infected with anthrax when they eat spores from the soil. Most human cases of anthrax occur as a result of exposure to these animals or their products. Anthrax can cause illness in humans in three different ways. The most common form of anthrax in humans is an infection of the skin that can occur in people who work with the contaminated hides or wool of infected animals. Another form of anthrax involves an infection of the intestine in those who eat improperly cooked meat of animals that have been infected with anthrax. The most devastating infection and the infection that we fear could be spread by terrorists is inhalational anthrax. This occurs when humans inhale anthrax spores. How could terrorists use anthrax?Our fear is that terrorists could accumulate a large quantity of anthrax spores and release them from an airplane to expose a great number of people. Unlike conventional terrorist attacks using explosives, the damage of such an attack would not be known for some time afterwards. In addition to casualties, such an attack could clearly cause a great deal of panic and social disruption. How would we know that we were exposed to anthrax?Since anthrax spores are colorless and odorless, there is no way to know that an exposure has occurred. The first clue to an attack would likely be the first case of human anthrax. It is crucial for physicians to know what to look for in order to identify potential cases. Many of the symptoms of anthrax are the same as those of common viral upper respiratory infections. Do not assume that your cough is from anthrax. Patients with inhalational anthrax generally develop fever, chills, weakness, headache, shortness of breath, cough, chest pain, abdominal pain and vomiting. This may occur days or even many weeks after an exposure. Patients may then feel better for a short period of time before developing high fever, severe shortness of breath, and shock. Past experience has shown that at least 80% of patients with inhalational anthrax have died from this illness. Anthrax is not spread from person to person. Is there treatment for anthrax?There are a number of antibiotics that can be used to treat anthrax, but they need to be administered for prolonged periods of time, up to 60 days. Since terrorists would likely choose strains of bacteria resistant to some antibiotics, not all antibiotics will work. What can be done to prevent anthrax?There is a vaccine for anthrax (given in 6 doses) that is recommended for persons who work with anthrax in the lab, for persons who work with animal products that may be infected, and for all U.S. military personnel due to the possibility of exposure through germ warfare. A consensus panel also suggests the use of the vaccine for patients exposed to inhalational anthrax. What is smallpox?Smallpox is a disease caused by a virus, variola major. Unlike anthrax, it can spread from person to person. Spread of disease occurs via droplets that come from an infected person's mouth or nose or from direct contact. Clothing or bed linen used by an infected person can also spread disease. It appears that a very small amount of virus is sufficient to cause infection, however smallpox is not as contagious as chickenpox. Even so, a single person with smallpox could potentially infect many other people. Why would smallpox pose a problem today?Victory against smallpox was declared in 1977 due to the success of a worldwide vaccine program that started in 1967. Although worldwide eradication was successful, some virus was saved in laboratories. It is possible that some of this virus has gotten into the hands of terrorists. In this country, routine vaccination of one-year-old children with the smallpox vaccine ceased in 1972. This means that there are lots of people in this country who have not been vaccinated. Furthermore, the protective effect of the vaccine seems to wear off after a number of years so that even persons who have been vaccinated may not be protected. There are some stores of vaccine in this country, but there is not enough to vaccinate everybody. The vaccine itself has risks such as brain swelling and severe rash, so it is not prudent to give the vaccine unless there is a significant risk of exposure to the virus. What are the symptoms of smallpox?The illness itself begins after a two-week incubation period. Patients have high fevers, headache and backache. A disfiguring rash then occurs, first in the mouth and throat, face, and arms, and then the rash spreads to the chest, back and legs. It resembles the rash of chickenpox. Scabs form a little over a week later. Death occurs in the second week of the illness in approximately 30% of patients due to overwhelming systemic infection. The diagnosis can be confirmed by laboratory examination of fluid samples taken from the rash. Is there a proven treatment for smallpox?No. In the event of an outbreak, the best we could do would be to prevent others from becoming infected. This would be accomplished by isolating individuals with smallpox and giving the vaccine to contacts of those infected. Isolation is generally an effective strategy for this disease since it is contagious only when the rash is present. Vaccination of close contacts as early as possible but as late as four days after exposure may prevent or lessen the severity of illness. ConclusionRemember that anthrax and smallpox are only two of many agents that could be used in a bioterrorist attack. It is impossible to completely protect yourself from every possible attack. The CDC has classified a number of infectious diseases as "Category A," or "high-priority" agents that, when in the wrong hands, could pose a risk to national security. These are: anthrax, smallpox, botulism, plague, tularemia and viral hemorrhagic fever. But the most prudent course of action right now is to keep abreast of current events. Meanwhile, physicians must learn to recognize these illnesses, illnesses they may have never seen before. The government and the CDC need to further develop the infrastructure to recognize bioterrorist attacks and act promptly so that the damage of such attacks can be confined. Another long-term goal is to develop the ability to vaccinate and treat a large number of individuals for certain diseases, should this become necessary. This information, and more, can be found on the Web site for the Center for Disease Control. Go to Top Related Webcasts Adult Orphans: Coping With the Loss of a Parent Helping Your Child Through A Death in the Family Overcoming Anxiety Terror on TV: Should Your Children Watch? Avoiding Anger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 I do think that this is good info I just think we have to be rational and like it says in this article the risks of the vaccines themselves are not worth it unless a threat is real and imminent. Remember I know a good friend who is sick like all of us from a tetanus shot vaccine. So again I think that I would pass on any vaccines at this point in life with my autoimmune illness. I also do not feel that influenza vaccines are safe either, I know of patients who contracted gullian barre' syndrome from flu shots. No thanks! In @y..., " MARTHA-NSIF " <MAM-NSIF@P...> wrote: > With our very compromised immume systems, I would suggest we all take many more precautions, and see our physicians regarding what we might do to protect ourselves! > > Blessings, > Martha M > NSIF > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MARTHA-NSIF > arden r moulin, whcnp > Cc: Lawrence > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:29 AM > Subject: anthrax & smallpox > > > Anthrax and Smallpox 101 > S. Kendler, MD > > In the days since the September 11 terrorist attacks, countless worried patients have called to ask their doctors about protecting themselves from possible follow up attacks with biological weapons. Many hope to take vaccines for smallpox and anthrax. > One doctor was upset to learn that a patient could not fill a prescription for an antibiotic commonly used to treat a wide range of illnesses. The local pharmacy had run out because the antibiotic is also used to treat anthrax. > > Some advice from the doctor > Do not make an appointment to see your doctor for smallpox and anthrax vaccines-they are not available to civilians at this time. Your health would be better served by receiving the influenza vaccine, since there will certainly be cases of the flu this fall and winter. And hoarding antibiotics for anthrax will only have the effect of depleting the supply for patients who need them for more immediate reasons. > > Since most patients have voiced concern about anthrax and smallpox, below are some details about those two diseases. > > What is anthrax? > Anthrax is a disease caused by Bacillus anthracis, a bacterium that has the ability to produce spores. These spores are similar to plant seeds in that they can survive in a dormant form for many years and can produce living bacteria when conditions are suitable, as when they come into contact with an animal or human. In certain parts of the world, herbivores or plant-eating animals such as sheep and goats can become infected with anthrax when they eat spores from the soil. Most human cases of anthrax occur as a result of exposure to these animals or their products. > > Anthrax can cause illness in humans in three different ways. The most common form of anthrax in humans is an infection of the skin that can occur in people who work with the contaminated hides or wool of infected animals. > > Another form of anthrax involves an infection of the intestine in those who eat improperly cooked meat of animals that have been infected with anthrax. The most devastating infection and the infection that we fear could be spread by terrorists is inhalational anthrax. This occurs when humans inhale anthrax spores. > > How could terrorists use anthrax? > Our fear is that terrorists could accumulate a large quantity of anthrax spores and release them from an airplane to expose a great number of people. Unlike conventional terrorist attacks using explosives, the damage of such an attack would not be known for some time afterwards. In addition to casualties, such an attack could clearly cause a great deal of panic and social disruption. > > How would we know that we were exposed to anthrax? > Since anthrax spores are colorless and odorless, there is no way to know that an exposure has occurred. The first clue to an attack would likely be the first case of human anthrax. It is crucial for physicians to know what to look for in order to identify potential cases. > > Many of the symptoms of anthrax are the same as those of common viral upper respiratory infections. Do not assume that your cough is from anthrax. Patients with inhalational anthrax generally develop fever, chills, weakness, headache, shortness of breath, cough, chest pain, abdominal pain and vomiting. This may occur days or even many weeks after an exposure. Patients may then feel better for a short period of time before developing high fever, severe shortness of breath, and shock. Past experience has shown that at least 80% of patients with inhalational anthrax have died from this illness. Anthrax is not spread from person to person. > > Is there treatment for anthrax? > There are a number of antibiotics that can be used to treat anthrax, but they need to be administered for prolonged periods of time, up to 60 days. Since terrorists would likely choose strains of bacteria resistant to some antibiotics, not all antibiotics will work. > > What can be done to prevent anthrax? > There is a vaccine for anthrax (given in 6 doses) that is recommended for persons who work with anthrax in the lab, for persons who work with animal products that may be infected, and for all U.S. military personnel due to the possibility of exposure through germ warfare. A consensus panel also suggests the use of the vaccine for patients exposed to inhalational anthrax. > > What is smallpox? > Smallpox is a disease caused by a virus, variola major. Unlike anthrax, it can spread from person to person. Spread of disease occurs via droplets that come from an infected person's mouth or nose or from direct contact. Clothing or bed linen used by an infected person can also spread disease. It appears that a very small amount of virus is sufficient to cause infection, however smallpox is not as contagious as chickenpox. Even so, a single person with smallpox could potentially infect many other people. > > Why would smallpox pose a problem today? > Victory against smallpox was declared in 1977 due to the success of a worldwide vaccine program that started in 1967. Although worldwide eradication was successful, some virus was saved in laboratories. It is possible that some of this virus has gotten into the hands of terrorists. In this country, routine vaccination of one- year-old children with the smallpox vaccine ceased in 1972. This means that there are lots of people in this country who have not been vaccinated. Furthermore, the protective effect of the vaccine seems to wear off after a number of years so that even persons who have been vaccinated may not be protected. There are some stores of vaccine in this country, but there is not enough to vaccinate everybody. The vaccine itself has risks such as brain swelling and severe rash, so it is not prudent to give the vaccine unless there is a significant risk of exposure to the virus. > > What are the symptoms of smallpox? > The illness itself begins after a two-week incubation period. Patients have high fevers, headache and backache. A disfiguring rash then occurs, first in the mouth and throat, face, and arms, and then the rash spreads to the chest, back and legs. It resembles the rash of chickenpox. Scabs form a little over a week later. Death occurs in the second week of the illness in approximately 30% of patients due to overwhelming systemic infection. The diagnosis can be confirmed by laboratory examination of fluid samples taken from the rash. > > Is there a proven treatment for smallpox? > No. In the event of an outbreak, the best we could do would be to prevent others from becoming infected. This would be accomplished by isolating individuals with smallpox and giving the vaccine to contacts of those infected. Isolation is generally an effective strategy for this disease since it is contagious only when the rash is present. Vaccination of close contacts as early as possible but as late as four days after exposure may prevent or lessen the severity of illness. > > Conclusion > Remember that anthrax and smallpox are only two of many agents that could be used in a bioterrorist attack. It is impossible to completely protect yourself from every possible attack. > > The CDC has classified a number of infectious diseases as " Category A, " or " high-priority " agents that, when in the wrong hands, could pose a risk to national security. These are: anthrax, smallpox, botulism, plague, tularemia and viral hemorrhagic fever. But the most prudent course of action right now is to keep abreast of current events. > > Meanwhile, physicians must learn to recognize these illnesses, illnesses they may have never seen before. The government and the CDC need to further develop the infrastructure to recognize bioterrorist attacks and act promptly so that the damage of such attacks can be confined. Another long-term goal is to develop the ability to vaccinate and treat a large number of individuals for certain diseases, should this become necessary. > > This information, and more, can be found on the Web site for the Center for Disease Control. > > > Go to Top > > Related Webcasts > Adult Orphans: Coping With the Loss of a Parent > Helping Your Child Through A Death in the Family > Overcoming Anxiety > Terror on TV: Should Your Children Watch? > Avoiding Anger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 Does anyone else have an opinion or medical advise on flu shots and tetnus shots...I was told that my tetnus antibodies were low and should get one...and with a weak immune system I should get a flu shot. Debbie cjheer@... wrote: I do think that this is good info I just think we have to be rational and like it says in this article the risks of the vaccines themselves are not worth it unless a threat is real and imminent. Remember I know a good friend who is sick like all of us from a tetanus shot vaccine. So again I think that I would pass on any vaccines at this point in life with my autoimmune illness. I also do not feel that influenza vaccines are safe either, I know of patients who contracted gullian barre' syndrome from flu shots. No thanks!In @y..., "MARTHA-NSIF" <MAM-NSIF@P...> wrote:> With our very compromised immume systems, I would suggest we all take many more precautions, and see our physicians regarding what we might do to protect ourselves!> > Blessings,> Martha M> NSIF> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MARTHA-NSIF > arden r moulin, whcnp > Cc: Lawrence > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:29 AM> Subject: anthrax & smallpox> > > Anthrax and Smallpox 101 > S. Kendler, MD> > In the days since the September 11 terrorist attacks, countless worried patients have called to ask their doctors about protecting themselves from possible follow up attacks with biological weapons. Many hope to take vaccines for smallpox and anthrax. > One doctor was upset to learn that a patient could not fill a prescription for an antibiotic commonly used to treat a wide range of illnesses. The local pharmacy had run out because the antibiotic is also used to treat anthrax. > > Some advice from the doctor> Do not make an appointment to see your doctor for smallpox and anthrax vaccines-they are not available to civilians at this time. Your health would be better served by receiving the influenza vaccine, since there will certainly be cases of the flu this fall and winter. And hoarding antibiotics for anthrax will only have the effect of depleting the supply for patients who need them for more immediate reasons. > > Since most patients have voiced concern about anthrax and smallpox, below are some details about those two diseases. > > What is anthrax?> Anthrax is a disease caused by Bacillus anthracis, a bacterium that has the ability to produce spores. These spores are similar to plant seeds in that they can survive in a dormant form for many years and can produce living bacteria when conditions are suitable, as when they come into contact with an animal or human. In certain parts of the world, herbivores or plant-eating animals such as sheep and goats can become infected with anthrax when they eat spores from the soil. Most human cases of anthrax occur as a result of exposure to these animals or their products. > > Anthrax can cause illness in humans in three different ways. The most common form of anthrax in humans is an infection of the skin that can occur in people who work with the contaminated hides or wool of infected animals. > > Another form of anthrax involves an infection of the intestine in those who eat improperly cooked meat of animals that have been infected with anthrax. The most devastating infection and the infection that we fear could be spread by terrorists is inhalational anthrax. This occurs when humans inhale anthrax spores. > > How could terrorists use anthrax?> Our fear is that terrorists could accumulate a large quantity of anthrax spores and release them from an airplane to expose a great number of people. Unlike conventional terrorist attacks using explosives, the damage of such an attack would not be known for some time afterwards. In addition to casualties, such an attack could clearly cause a great deal of panic and social disruption. > > How would we know that we were exposed to anthrax?> Since anthrax spores are colorless and odorless, there is no way to know that an exposure has occurred. The first clue to an attack would likely be the first case of human anthrax. It is crucial for physicians to know what to look for in order to identify potential cases. > > Many of the symptoms of anthrax are the same as those of common viral upper respiratory infections. Do not assume that your cough is from anthrax. Patients with inhalational anthrax generally develop fever, chills, weakness, headache, shortness of breath, cough, chest pain, abdominal pain and vomiting. This may occur days or even many weeks after an exposure. Patients may then feel better for a short period of time before developing high fever, severe shortness of breath, and shock. Past experience has shown that at least 80% of patients with inhalational anthrax have died from this illness. Anthrax is not spread from person to person. > > Is there treatment for anthrax?> There are a number of antibiotics that can be used to treat anthrax, but they need to be administered for prolonged periods of time, up to 60 days. Since terrorists would likely choose strains of bacteria resistant to some antibiotics, not all antibiotics will work. > > What can be done to prevent anthrax?> There is a vaccine for anthrax (given in 6 doses) that is recommended for persons who work with anthrax in the lab, for persons who work with animal products that may be infected, and for all U.S. military personnel due to the possibility of exposure through germ warfare. A consensus panel also suggests the use of the vaccine for patients exposed to inhalational anthrax. > > What is smallpox?> Smallpox is a disease caused by a virus, variola major. Unlike anthrax, it can spread from person to person. Spread of disease occurs via droplets that come from an infected person's mouth or nose or from direct contact. Clothing or bed linen used by an infected person can also spread disease. It appears that a very small amount of virus is sufficient to cause infection, however smallpox is not as contagious as chickenpox. Even so, a single person with smallpox could potentially infect many other people. > > Why would smallpox pose a problem today?> Victory against smallpox was declared in 1977 due to the success of a worldwide vaccine program that started in 1967. Although worldwide eradication was successful, some virus was saved in laboratories. It is possible that some of this virus has gotten into the hands of terrorists. In this country, routine vaccination of one-year-old children with the smallpox vaccine ceased in 1972. This means that there are lots of people in this country who have not been vaccinated. Furthermore, the protective effect of the vaccine seems to wear off after a number of years so that even persons who have been vaccinated may not be protected. There are some stores of vaccine in this country, but there is not enough to vaccinate everybody. The vaccine itself has risks such as brain swelling and severe rash, so it is not prudent to give the vaccine unless there is a significant risk of exposure to the virus. > > What are the symptoms of smallpox?> The illness itself begins after a two-week incubation period. Patients have high fevers, headache and backache. A disfiguring rash then occurs, first in the mouth and throat, face, and arms, and then the rash spreads to the chest, back and legs. It resembles the rash of chickenpox. Scabs form a little over a week later. Death occurs in the second week of the illness in approximately 30% of patients due to overwhelming systemic infection. The diagnosis can be confirmed by laboratory examination of fluid samples taken from the rash. > > Is there a proven treatment for smallpox?> No. In the event of an outbreak, the best we could do would be to prevent others from becoming infected. This would be accomplished by isolating individuals with smallpox and giving the vaccine to contacts of those infected. Isolation is generally an effective strategy for this disease since it is contagious only when the rash is present. Vaccination of close contacts as early as possible but as late as four days after exposure may prevent or lessen the severity of illness. > > Conclusion> Remember that anthrax and smallpox are only two of many agents that could be used in a bioterrorist attack. It is impossible to completely protect yourself from every possible attack. > > The CDC has classified a number of infectious diseases as "Category A," or "high-priority" agents that, when in the wrong hands, could pose a risk to national security. These are: anthrax, smallpox, botulism, plague, tularemia and viral hemorrhagic fever. But the most prudent course of action right now is to keep abreast of current events. > > Meanwhile, physicians must learn to recognize these illnesses, illnesses they may have never seen before. The government and the CDC need to further develop the infrastructure to recognize bioterrorist attacks and act promptly so that the damage of such attacks can be confined. Another long-term goal is to develop the ability to vaccinate and treat a large number of individuals for certain diseases, should this become necessary. > > This information, and more, can be found on the Web site for the Center for Disease Control. > > > Go to Top > > Related Webcasts> Adult Orphans: Coping With the Loss of a Parent> Helping Your Child Through A Death in the Family> Overcoming Anxiety> Terror on TV: Should Your Children Watch?> Avoiding Anger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 Hi Patty, Thanks for posting this information. I have had several internists since 1980, when I had my last flu-shot for the rest of my life! From the day after that last shot, I had very serious reactions --like having a severe case of the flu -- that lasted for about 6-months. It was a nightmare! Than was about 3 years after having implants, and I have never had another 'flu-shot' since then, and neither have I had a serious case of flu! Any doctor I've been treated by since that time, has advised me to NEVER have another flu-shot for the rest of my life. Another thing few medical personnel forget to ask before giving you the flu shot is; "Do you have any form of allergy to eggs or chiken?" If you even suspect you are allergic to eggs, or any form of chicken, you cannot have the "flu-shot"! Blessings, MM / NSIF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 My personal opinion on flu shots and vaccines is that they can be very dangerous for us. I have never, ever, ever had a flu shot, and you would have to tie me down to make me get one--I'll run before anyone can poke me with a vaccine needle. I think flu shots are way, way overrated and not necessarily effective, and in some cases can be harmful. There are preservatives in vaccines that can be dangerous, such as thimerosol. I think we need to let our immune systems recover on their own and quit messing with them. Patty ----- Original Message ----- From: dc l Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 7:39 PM Subject: Re: Re: Fw: anthrax & smallpox Does anyone else have an opinion or medical advise on flu shots and tetnus shots...I was told that my tetnus antibodies were low and should get one...and with a weak immune system I should get a flu shot. Debbie cjheer@... wrote: I do think that this is good info I just think we have to be rational and like it says in this article the risks of the vaccines themselves are not worth it unless a threat is real and imminent. Remember I know a good friend who is sick like all of us from a tetanus shot vaccine. So again I think that I would pass on any vaccines at this point in life with my autoimmune illness. I also do not feel that influenza vaccines are safe either, I know of patients who contracted gullian barre' syndrome from flu shots. No thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 Anyone who has a flu shot should be signing a consent, and on that consent it should ask if you have an allergy to chicken or eggs. AND the person giving the shot has a responsibility to ask this question. I receive a flu shot every yr, otherwise I become horribly ill w/ the flu. My docs have told me to get the flu shot, as the chances of me coming down w/ the flu are high, and because my immune system is weakened, flu could be deadly. Also, the fact that I work in the medical field and are exposed to sick people all the time is another reason to get the flu shot. Each person needs to decide whether they are at greater risk with getting the flu shot or not getting the flu shot. Also, Guillan Barre is extremely rare. But yes, if you do choose to get the flu shot, you must not be allergic to chicken or eggs! e > Hi Patty, > > Thanks for posting this information. I have had several internists since 1980, > when I had my last flu-shot for the rest of my life! From the day after that > last shot, I had very serious reactions --like having a severe case of the flu > -- that lasted for about 6-months. It was a nightmare! Than was about 3 years > after having implants, and I have never had another 'flu-shot' since then, and > neither have I had a serious case of flu! Any doctor I've been treated by since > that time, has advised me to NEVER have another flu-shot for the rest of my > life. > > Another thing few medical personnel forget to ask before giving you the flu shot > is; " Do you have any form of allergy to eggs or chiken? " If you even suspect > you are allergic to eggs, or any form of chicken, you cannot have the > " flu-shot " ! > > Blessings, > MM / NSIF > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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